Late: I have been busy with Europthon
In a message of Sun, 08 Jul 2007 16:35:17 EDT, Jay Bloodworth writes:
On Sun, 2007-07-08 at 21:46 +0200, Laura Creighton wrote:
Do you have many students who are good at geometry and still rotten
at algebra? Also what do they say when you ask them 'what
Long before we start talking about 'variables' and 'powers' and the
like -- which is all part of the 'notationally true' world, we need to
nail down the absolute truths about addition that the order in which
you add terms does not matter. Which we can then formulate as LAWS
about addition.
On 7/6/07, John Zelle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I also like the string library for certain pedagogical reasons, but I don't
think the Templates are compelling when you can do essentially the same thing
with string formatting. Is the $ notation that much of a win?
--John
Another reason to
In a message of Tue, 10 Jul 2007 09:20:15 EDT, Jay Bloodworth writes:
snip
I'm just not sure that geometric models are likely to help with
the difficulties struggling students often have. Two examples:
* It's like pulling teeth to get students to respect order of operations
and remember
Check this out!
http://codegolf.com/polynomial-division
Kirby
On 7/10/07, Richard Guenther [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
One thing that always comes up when our math department discusses
non-standard algorithms is long division of polynomials. Doesn't seem like
any non-standard algorithm is
On 7/6/07, Andre Roberge [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
But, this is straying far from the original question. These are kids
that have had a few weeks of instruction (with probably less than 6
hour of class time per week). What can be reasonably expected of
them?
High school CS teacher (at least
: Jay Bloodworth [EMAIL PROTECTED]; edu-sig@python.org
edu-sig@python.org
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 5:37:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] a non-rhetorical question
Check this out!
http://codegolf.com/polynomial-division
Kirby
On 7/10/07, Richard Guenther [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
One thing
On 7/11/07, Kevin Driscoll [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Three years ago, I was definitely on the lexical path and would have
expected students to be able to answer Andy's question after a couple
class meetings. However, in my most recent course, I used PyGame and
exposed students to
Yes! Like a rapper, you must have REALNESS to get over!
A helpful recurring activity was asking kids to google image search a
background for simple 2-D games and demos. This way, they get some
random, yet real, data to use: the width, height, filename, URL, etc.
bgsize = width, height = (800,
On Tue, 2007-07-10 at 01:22 +0300, kirby urner wrote:
Yes indeed. And I think many of us are making the point that
students develop differently, such that they might use their
strengths to address their weaknesses (with guidance from a
teacher/mentor should they be lucky enough to have
One thing that always comes up when our math department discusses non-standard
algorithms is long division of polynomials. Doesn't seem like any non-standard
algorithm is easily applied there.
Changing the focus a little: I've been thinking of the importance of student
motivation in learning
On Jul 8, 2007, at 3:12 PM, Winston Wolff wrote:
I've been thinking about old programming games like
Core Wars and Robot Wars and would like to make some newer version
like that.
I've been encouraging this from the OLPC angle, since games like
these would work very well in our mesh
On the algebra/geometry questions:
As a longtime math professor in a past life, it is my observation of
students going forward from high school, and of students long ago when I
was in high school myself, and tutored a lot of peers, that there are
several effects in the algebra/geometry
On 7/9/07, Andrew Harrington [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
SNIP
I also hypothesize that some students who are capable of learning symbol
manipulation, but need practice, do well getting that experience in
algebra, and then are less overwhelmed taking geometry later by the
added requirement to
kirby urner wrote:
I hope edu-sig proves a relevant source of ideas. Probably you
won't be using the __ribs__ idea (snakes have lots of 'em), but
if you don't know what I mean, I'll plug my Europython slides
again (I'm spreading the __rib__ idea in Vilnius).
Kirby, those slides are interesting, but having a voiceover explaining them
would be great. With the work you've put into them, you should consider
screencasting -- just flip the slides and talk into a microphone for us.
Yes, I have Camtasia Studio, did a recap of my OSCON 2005 presentation
In a message of Sun, 08 Jul 2007 00:04:14 EDT, Andy Judkis writes:
I've been out painting my house, so I have some catching up to do as well
.
I thank Andre for coming to my defense, but I think Michael's on the righ
t
track. The problem is that I haven't found something sufficiently motivat
ing
I know some say Kirby's stuff doesn't count because high schoolers
pay money to take my class and are hence motivated (not fair!),
but I do consider my classes somewhat successful, in terms of high
marks for the teacher (they grade me, but not vice versa, confidentially
but I'm told I do
In a message of Sun, 08 Jul 2007 10:29:24 CDT, Atul Varma writes:
Has anyone ever explored the idea of using a collaborative virtual
community for teaching programming? I'm thinking about something
along the lines of Amy Bruckman's MOOSE Crossing:
http://www.cc.gatech.edu/elc/moose-crossing/
I'm joining the discussion late; I'm going to respond on a couple of
points that resonated with me, but forgive me for neglecting a few
attributions. Also, I'm going to ramble a bit through some of the
things I think about as a math educator. Hopefully I can make it work
the trip for you to
resent -- left off the g in python.org
There is a small fraction of students I get who cannot learn
algebra, ever, no matter what I or anybody else does. I don't know
why that is. But there is a larger number which I could not
teach algebra until after I had taught them geometry. So we fixed
Bloodworth [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: edu-sig@python.org
Sent: Sunday, July 8, 2007 1:37:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] a non-rhetorical question
I'm joining the discussion late; I'm going to respond on a couple of
points that resonated with me, but forgive me for neglecting a few
attributions. Also, I'm
I have thought a lot about this. I teach kids (aged 10-14 mostly) to
write video games using Scratch and Python. They love it, but I'd
like to promote more community and make the classes a little more
game like. I've been thinking about old programming games like
Core Wars and Robot
On Sun, 2007-07-08 at 21:46 +0200, Laura Creighton wrote:
Do you have many students who are good at geometry and still rotten
at algebra? Also what do they say when you ask them 'what don't
you understand here?'
I wouldn't say rotten, but it's not unusual to have students who do
On 7/8/07, Andy Judkis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Your circumstances are somewhat different but I don't feel like your stuff
doesn't count. It would be extremely interesting to hear how your kids
approach the test question I presented that started this thing. You wanna
pose it to them and see
Here's the most elegant solution I could come up with:
teachers = {'Mr. Judkis':'Excellent Choice',
'Mrs. McGrath':'Also a fine choice.'}
name = raw_input()
while name not in teachers.keys():
print 'Wrong, sorry.'
name = raw_input()
print teachers[name]
--Tom
Here's
On Jul 6, 2007, at 2:29 PM, Andre Roberge wrote:
Does anyone on this list (other than Vern) who has taught high school
kids an intro to programming for just a few weeks can answer Andy's
question?
I'm not a teacher, but perhaps you'll indulge a slight tangent. I
have taught intro CS to 8th
On 7/7/07, Ivan Krstić [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
...
Bottom line: terminology matters. I think it's impossible to teach CS
to kids who are afraid of math. Teaching *programming* is something
else entirely. I'd submit that what Andy can expect from his students
depends largely on which of the
Andy Judkis wrote:
Jeff,
Your thoughts are very much like mine were -- the problem is so trivial
and obvious that anyone who's spent a little time with the material
should see the solution immediately. But my experience shows that
that's simply not true. This stuff is just hard for
On 7/7/07, Jeff Rush [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Taken for what its worth as an outsider to the educational system, I've never
seen much focus on teaching people *how* to learn an arbitrary topic. It so
often seems to be trickery (not in a malicious sense) and indirection, to
reach that ah-ha
Right now I'm laboring away on storyboards for Head First Programming
with Python, which is intended for first time programmers, people who've
MAYBE looked at HTML, but nothing more. Somewhat the same space as
Zelle's book, but from the Head First perspective. (Should be out in
about a year,
Thanks Kirby,
Of course this is Programming *with* Python, i.e., programming is the
primary focus, and we'll be staying away from purely python idioms for
the most part, but I too am glad that O'Reilly's beginner's book is
*not* Head First Programming with Ruby, say... ;-)
As to __ribs__,
On 7/7/07, Michel Paul [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I was very happy to see this book come out recently:
Mathematics for the Digital Age
http://www.skylit.com/mathandpython.html
Hey thanks for sharing that. I wasn't aware of this resource.
They give a succinct summation of the math through
Dear Andy,
I have been away and came late to this excellent discussion.
I personally would have only taught the loop constructs without break at
this level, and then it is true that the problem 'only' needs the basic
syntactic components of loops, decisions, and compound logical
expressions.
I've been out painting my house, so I have some catching up to do as well.
First, to respond to the post from Michael Tobis:
Sorry, but I don't think you've successfully motivated your students
if that is all they can do in a month. Let me hazard a suggestion.
Rather than being too mabitious
I've tried showing the kids VPython in the first week or two, and they think
it's cool and can type stuff in but they have -no idea- what any of it
means. I have not thought of a way to use it as anything other than
entertainment.
I would love to hear from someone who feels that they have a
The very day I get back from Lithuania, I start another class. 3.5 hours
a day for four days. Rather intensive (especially with jet lag). Lots
of VPython, POV-Ray, and maybe some X3D.
Actually I guess it's only 2.5 hours a day, 10 hours total. Do they come
out completely proficient in
On 7-Jul-07, at 9:04 PM, Andy Judkis wrote:
I'm seriously thinking about using Scratch rather than Python, for
just that
reason -- the cool factor is built-in, it's as accessible as if or
while.
I haven't been actively trying to teach my kids to program, but they
know that's a big part
Andy Judkis wrote:
I've just completed my 6th semester as a teacher, teaching 2 sections per
semester of a 10th grade course that includes a 4 week introduction to
programming in Python. Here's a question from one of my exams:
Write Python code that will ask the user how who is the
On 7/6/07, Michael Tobis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Sorry, but I don't think you've successfully motivated your students
if that is all they can do in a month. Let me hazard a suggestion.
Rather than being too mabitious you are not being ambitious enough.
For having exchanged a few emails with
In a message of Thu, 05 Jul 2007 18:48:49 EDT, Andy Judkis writes:
I've just completed my 6th semester as a teacher, teaching 2 sections per
semester of a 10th grade course that includes a 4 week introduction to
programming in Python. Here's a question from one of my exams:
Write
Hi All,
I am very interested in responses to Andy's question because it was just this
sort of frustration with students' inability to write simple programs that
led me to using Python (as opposed to C++ or Java) in CS1. After my switch to
Python and back to basics CS1 back in 1999, my results
I am not totally sold on hackety; not having had access to MS Windows
of late I haven't played with it.
I am saying that the whole business is great fun if approached right,
and there at least hackety has much to teach us.
I have had great success starting with ascii art, drawing boxes and
Vern, Richard,
Your comments were very helpful -- it's sometimes hard for me to see the
question as a student would. They can imitate nicely, but asking them to
analyze and synthesize (as this question does, at a very superficial level)
seems to be asking a lot -- yet it's the essence of
I've been thinking about your students and what possibly might be
going on -- aside from their not learning anything, which unfortunately
is possible.
I think that you are better off trying to teach programming in
conjunction with trying to teach test driven design, and unit tests.
A large
Andy,
I certainly didn't mean to imply that you were a wise-guy! And if you've
been teaching them that sort of structure, it would definitely NOT be
the wise-guy answer.
I have to admit to not particularly liking (and not teaching) the while
True: approach myself, simply because it separates
On 7/6/07, Andy Judkis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Vern, Richard,
Your comments were very helpful -- it's sometimes hard for me to see the
question as a student would. They can imitate nicely, but asking them to
analyze and synthesize (as this question does, at a very superficial level)
seems
Tom,
Yeah, if they've got dictionaries, then your way is both elegant and
Pythonic ;-)
Cheers,
Vern
Tom Hoffman wrote:
On 7/6/07, Andy Judkis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Vern, Richard,
Your comments were very helpful -- it's sometimes hard for me to see the
question as a student would. They
Rather than catalog my frustrations, let me just pose a question to you
all -- how much Python exposure do you think it should take before a
student should be able to answer this question? If a student can't even
answer this, is it reasonable to say that they have learned any
programming
On 7/6/07, Vern Ceder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Tom,
Yeah, if they've got dictionaries, then your way is both elegant and
Pythonic ;-)
Except that .keys() is not needed in a truly Pythonic program ;-)
But, this is straying far from the original question. These are kids
that have had a few
Andy,
Thanks for that pdf. I'm currently writing some research on teaching
programming languages to English Language Learners and will probably include it
in my paper.
Here's the sad part for me: in all my years of teaching science and math (and a
little programming), it seems to come down
On 7/6/07, Andre Roberge [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Note that non-classroom teaching (like Kirby does for
motivated kids) does not count!
Where is Jeff Elkner when we need him? ;-)
André
Well boo hoo, why doesn't my stuff count? It's a real classroom
with real computers and real
Now it is sounding to me as if it is possible that your students
are at the 'i understrand it when you say it, but not well
enough to do it myself' stage. Which means they need more homework.
Basic drilling stuff. One odd thing I found was that students are
really unhappy with * as multiply
Sorry, that post got away from me when I started hitting
tab keys 'n stuff. Blaming jet lag. Trying again...
Saved module (sillystory.py):
==
import string
def test():
thestory = string.Template(
There once was a certain $persons_name from
$city who had a pet $animal. One day, the
I agree with Kirby that madlibs are a fun example.
On Friday 06 July 2007 2:12 pm, kirby urner wrote:
As I mention in my slides for EuroPython (looking forward to
meeting Laura again tomorrow), Madlibs proved appealing
to most students, little stories where they have to prompt
I also like the string library for certain pedagogical reasons, but I don't
think the Templates are compelling when you can do essentially the same thing
with string formatting. Is the $ notation that much of a win?
--John
Yeah I've asked myself the same question.
It's a little less
I've just completed my 6th semester as a teacher, teaching 2 sections per
semester of a 10th grade course that includes a 4 week introduction to
programming in Python. Here's a question from one of my exams:
Write Python code that will ask the user how who is the best looking
teacher in
Hi,
We do brief surveys with 8th and 9th graders, so I'm somewhat familiar
with the age and skill level. I would say that *most* students should be
able to answer this question after 4 weeks (depending on how much
looping they've done, of course). By answer I don't mean necessarily
get full
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: edu-sig@python.org edu-sig@python.org
Sent: Thursday, July 5, 2007 5:44:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] a non-rhetorical question
Hi,
We do brief surveys with 8th and 9th graders, so I'm somewhat familiar
with the age and skill level. I would say that *most* students should
Sorry, but I don't think you've successfully motivated your students
if that is all they can do in a month. Let me hazard a suggestion.
Rather than being too mabitious you are not being ambitious enough.
Scripting languages have batteries included. Doing the stuff you would
have done with BASIC
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