[Elecraft] PX3 interfering with rig control to KX3?

2017-10-09 Thread Bill Frantz
I was using my KX3 to operate QRP during the California QSO party. I had my logging program (RUMlogNG on a Mac) connected through the PX3 to the KX3 using an Elecraft USB <--> RS232 interface cable. I noticed the computer was not getting the band and frequency information from the KX3. When

Re: [Elecraft] KPA500 problem

2017-10-09 Thread Jack Brindle
Marvin; Assuming that you have the AUX I/O cable connected from the KPA500 to the K3, and you have RADIO set to K3 in the KPA500 menu, then I suspect you have dialed the power down to 0 on the K3 when the KPA is enabled. The KPA tells the K3 its state when it switches to STBY or OPER. The K3

Re: [Elecraft] Mobile from 117 VAC

2017-10-09 Thread Jim Brown
On 10/9/2017 2:01 PM, Dauer, Edward wrote: Jim – Good ideas from you, as always. The impact of RF on the car’s systems interests me the most, as I hadn’t thought of it before. Yours was a Sequoia.  Mine will be – if I buy it – a Lexus GX which is effectively the Sequoia’s cousin, if not

Re: [Elecraft] Mobile from 117 VAC

2017-10-09 Thread K9MA
Most likely, the AC inverter built into the car does not produce a sine wave, and your radio probably won't like it. You could just connect some heavy wire, with a fuse, directly to the battery terminals, and run the radio on that.  However, car batteries don't deep cycle well at all, and

Re: [Elecraft] KPA500 problem

2017-10-09 Thread Don Wilhelm
That is a mystery. The KPA500 is simply an amplifier, so it should amplify the K3S PEP power for SSB the same as it does for CW. Take a look at the drive power from the K3S. If you are overdriving the KPA500 in SSB, it may be switching in an attenuator. That could result from having too much

[Elecraft] KPA500 problem

2017-10-09 Thread marvwheeler
After switching from cw to sideband I have no output from either the K3S or the KPA500. Simply putting the KPA500 into standby allows output from the K3S. I think I have a switching problem. Where should I look? Thanks __ Elecraft

Re: [Elecraft] Going Mobile?

2017-10-09 Thread Ron D'Eau Claire
Those were the days when a mobile operator would make his engine stall by pressing the PTT when the engine was idling at a stop light. One guy I knew tore out the whole back seat of his sedan and filled it with a KW AM rig (bachelor of course). His mobile antenna featured a copper toilet tank

Re: [Elecraft] Mobile from 117 VAC

2017-10-09 Thread Eric J
I ran a similar setup. I built a homebrew version of the HA-14 (HW-12 was a xceiver). Same 572B tubes and powered it with Heath's DC power supply for the HA-14. Plate voltage was around 2200 volts. Drove it with a National NCX-3 in a brand new '65 Dodge R/T. Antenna was also homebrew. I never

Re: [Elecraft] Going Mobile?

2017-10-09 Thread Carl Yaffey1
A memory: 1955 I was at the Virginia Phone Net picnic at a farm. A guy pulls up in a Plymouth coupe with a huge plastic box on the roof with large coils and capacitors showing. Sticking out of it was a long vertical antenna. He stepped out. He had a microphone harness on which had probably been

Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Major Firmware Update

2017-10-09 Thread ke8g.jim
Make sure to read the release notes, as I know if you are updating a certain version, you will need to do the calibration again, so a dummy load is needed. It's all pretty much guided by the utility, make sure to download the newest K3 utility first, then do the update. 73 de Jim - KE8G

Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Major Firmware Update

2017-10-09 Thread Don Wilhelm
Jim, The K3 Utility sorts all that out. Upgrade the firmware and keep it upgraded periodically. Save a configuration file before and after this upgrade. Look at the Firmware Release notes between your existing firmware level and the current version to see what has changed. The Firmware

[Elecraft] (OT) - FOR SALE

2017-10-09 Thread stan levandowski
Rebuilding my entire station from the ground up -- with Elecraft gear of course! Following extra "stuff" is for sale.  Please contact me off list if interested. 1. Elecraft W1 PWR/SWR meter.  Purchased January 2017.  Works perfectly. $60.  Includes shipping. 2. Samlex SEC-1235M 13.8VDC

Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Major Firmware Update

2017-10-09 Thread GRANT YOUNGMAN
Update to the latest utility version first. Then, just put up the LATEST firmware version. You don’t have to do all of the intervening releases. No, it won’t kill your radio. Make sure you read all of the release notes since whatever version you have installed. > On Oct 9, 2017, at 8:12

Re: [Elecraft] Going Mobile?

2017-10-09 Thread Tox
I hate to think how much of that kilowatt got absorbed by the operator. On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 4:34 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote: > I recall a construction article a long time ago (mid 1960's) in GE Ham > News where W8DLD constructed a 1KW mobile linear using a pair of Grounded

Re: [Elecraft] SPE 1K-FA Amp hookup and ALC Question

2017-10-09 Thread Bob McGraw K4TAX
For the K3S, I suggest reading Fred Cady's book, specifically page 170 {9.2 Automatic Level Control - ALC} , page 222 {To ALC or Not to ALC}, and page 291 {EXT ALC} for particulars.   In summary, Elecraft does not  advise using ALC from the amp. Personal opinion, the amp should provide

[Elecraft] K3 - Major Firmware Update

2017-10-09 Thread Jim Miller
My K3 is sn 14xx and has not been upgraded since the K3S and the new synthesizers came out. It is running fine but I wonder about updating the ucode because the new stuff is not in it. I also have not updated my K3 Utility. IF I am going to update the firmware, I suppose I should get the

Re: [Elecraft] Mobile from 117 VAC

2017-10-09 Thread Bob McGraw K4TAX
There's nothing like doing the job correct, and Kent's installations seem to indicate such. I've used my Tentec 599 Eagle in my 2005 GMC Somona with a Hustler array on the rear, power cables direct to the battery.  No issues any band 80 - 6 meters.   Same basic configuration and installation

Re: [Elecraft] Mobile from 117 VAC

2017-10-09 Thread Mel Farrer via Elecraft
Back in the late 1960's, I ran a SBE 33 and a HW12 compact kilowatt in a Ford Econcom PU, with a Texas bug catcher antenna and NE2s around the Top Hat.  HP pulled me over and said I could not do that, causing drivers to swerve all over the place behind me.. FUN. Mel, K6KBE From:

Re: [Elecraft] SPE 1K-FA Amp hookup and ALC Question

2017-10-09 Thread Clay Autery
Yep...  Thanks Jim...  I had remembered reading about this, but not having an amp at the time, I glossed over it. Thanks to re-reading manual and Fred's book, AND to several responses, I am fully informed now! Case closed :-) 73, __ Clay Autery, KY5G MONTAC

Re: [Elecraft] Going Mobile?

2017-10-09 Thread Don Wilhelm
I recall a construction article a long time ago (mid 1960's) in GE Ham News where W8DLD constructed a 1KW mobile linear using a pair of Grounded Grid 814 tubes and developed the HV from a modified alternator to bring the 3 phase AC out and run it to 3 transformers. Of course, in those days,

Re: [Elecraft] Going Mobile?

2017-10-09 Thread Mel Farrer via Elecraft
Yes, the water cooled antenna amplifier was a Dalmo Motor inverter and Jennings 2w300b tetrode amplifier I had one.  I still have the amp and manuals. Mel, K6KBE From: Bob Nielsen To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Monday, October 9, 2017 4:19 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft]

Re: [Elecraft] Mobile from 117 VAC

2017-10-09 Thread Dave Fugleberg
My friend had a jeep wrangler (2012 model IIRC ) that we used for VHF roving with no issues. When we tried the same vehicle on HF, some bands were ok and some caused havoc with the vehicle electronics. Transmit on 15m at 100 watts triggered the wipers... 40m lit up every indicator on the dash. We

Re: [Elecraft] SPE 1K-FA Amp hookup and ALC Question

2017-10-09 Thread M. George
I have an SPE 2K-FA I'm using with a K3S... very happy with it. I made a verbose YouTube video early on after I received the amp which gets into the details of making the interface cable. (these days guys can pass the Extra Class exam but they can't

Re: [Elecraft] Going Mobile?

2017-10-09 Thread Bob Nielsen
In the late 1980s WB6FDR showed me his mobile station that had a Kenwood rig with a small control head which he had mounted on the dash of his Mercedes.  The rest of the rig plus a KW amp all fit in the trunk. I recall that one of the old W6SAI handbooks showed a mobile rig with an amp that

Re: [Elecraft] Going Mobile?

2017-10-09 Thread Wes Stewart
Interesting photos of my Elmer's mobile though: http://www.k0bg.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=1039 On 10/9/2017 3:11 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote: Yeah, just remember..everything written and printed and found on the web is not necessarily correct, nor accurate, and not of the current

[Elecraft] NAQCC October Sprint this Tuesday Evening

2017-10-09 Thread Larry W2LJ
The October NAQCC sprint is this coming Tuesday evening local time (October 10th, EDT - 8:30-10:30PM, CDT - 7:30-9:30PM, MDT - 6:30-8:30PM, PDT - 5:30-7:30PM), which translates as Wednesday, October 11th, 0030 to 0230Z in all cases. For all the "official" information, please go to:

Re: [Elecraft] Going Mobile?

2017-10-09 Thread Bob McGraw K4TAX
Yeah, just remember..everything written and printed and found on the web is not necessarily correct, nor accurate, and not of the current methodology of doing things.  I find that a lot of info borders on what someone told their brother in law, that has a 3rd cousin who was a neighbor

Re: [Elecraft] SPE 1K-FA Amp hookup and ALC Question

2017-10-09 Thread Bob McGraw K4TAX
I agree with Jim, K9YC on the ALC points. With older radios, namely tube types which required the exciter PA to be loaded correctly to be linear, this power level would overdrive many amplifiers.   Hence ALC from the amp to the transceiver/transmitter was required to control the drive power.

Re: [Elecraft] Going Mobile?

2017-10-09 Thread Jim Brown
On 10/9/2017 1:49 PM, Robert 'RC' Conley wrote: This is a web site you absolutely must read I looked at this website several years ago, found things that were dead wrong from and RFI perspective, and took them up with the author who refused to accept my advice. I didn't

Re: [Elecraft] SPE 1K-FA Amp hookup and ALC Question

2017-10-09 Thread Jim Brown
On 10/9/2017 12:48 PM, Clay Autery wrote: I'm being given an SPE 1K-FA for use with my fully current K3s. I'm being told that the K3s and SPE don't play well together using "ALC". A conflicting report is telling me that Elecraft addressed the ALC issue. I owned one of these amps for a few

Re: [Elecraft] Mobile from 117 VAC

2017-10-09 Thread Fred Jensen
In my previous 2003 Chevy Silverado, I had my TS-850 on a picnic table, running off the truck battery with jumper cables to the PowerPole distribution block and the engine idling.  As soon as I sent the first CW, both front seats moved totally forward and then refused to move back, steering

Re: [Elecraft] Mobile from 117 VAC

2017-10-09 Thread KENT TRIMBLE
I can offer only my personal mobile experiences over 46 years, for what it's worth: 1971 Plymouth Sport Fury FT-101E mounted over transmission hump Power cable direct from car's battery to rig Hustler rear-deck-lid-mounted antenna Many 140-watt HF CW QSOs No problems with any function of the

[Elecraft] Mobile from 117 VAC

2017-10-09 Thread Dauer, Edward
Jim - Good ideas from you, as always. The impact of RF on the car's systems interests me the most, as I hadn't thought of it before. Yours was a Sequoia. Mine will be - if I buy it - a Lexus GX which is effectively the Sequoia's cousin, if not half-brother. So even if I conquer all the

[Elecraft] Mobile radio

2017-10-09 Thread k5...@arrl.net
Bad link for Alan K0BG try http://www.k0bg.com/wiring.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted

Re: [Elecraft] KX3 CW POWER ISSUE

2017-10-09 Thread Don Wilhelm
Gerry, The KX3 can be used at up to 15 watts for all modes below 20 meters. Above that band it is reduced to 12 watts. 73, Don W3FPR On 10/9/2017 4:41 PM, Gerry Miller wrote: I NOTICED LAST NIGHT THAT WHEN IN CW MODE MY POWER OUTPUT WENT TO THE PREVIOUS SSB SETTING OF 14W. I THOUGHT THE

[Elecraft] Fwd: mobile radio

2017-10-09 Thread Rose
-- Forwarded message -- From: Rose Date: Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 2:48 PM Subject: Fwd: [Elecraft] mobile radio To: k5...@arrl.net I believe you mean K0BG ... known him for ears. 73! Ken Kopp - K0PP elecraftcov...@gmail.com

[Elecraft] Going Mobile?

2017-10-09 Thread Robert 'RC' Conley
This is a web site you absolutely must read -- The Morse be with youLive Long and Prosper __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help:

[Elecraft] KX3 CW POWER ISSUE

2017-10-09 Thread Gerry Miller
I NOTICED LAST NIGHT THAT WHEN IN CW MODE MY POWER OUTPUT WENT TO THE PREVIOUS SSB SETTING OF 14W. I THOUGHT THE MAX WAS AUTOMATICALLY SET TO MAX OF 5 W WHEN IN CW MODE OR DO I HAVE SOME SW ISSUE IN MY RIG? KX3 VERY GENTLY USED SN 499X. SW MCU-2.38, DSP1.37. ANY SUGGESTIONS?GERRY MILLER,

[Elecraft] mobile radio

2017-10-09 Thread k5...@arrl.net
Edward and anyone interested in doing mobile radio correctly I suggest you read Alan’s website: http://www.k0ng.com/wiring.html Peter K5hab Medina Tx __ Elecraft mailing list Home:

Re: [Elecraft] SPE 1K-FA Amp hookup and ALC Question

2017-10-09 Thread Don Wilhelm
Clay, You must have been reading some very old information. The first K3s had positive going ALC, but it changed to negative going early on. If your K3 was shipped prior to Dec 10, 2008 (before approximate SN 2362) it may still have positive ALC. If you have the REMIOUPGD or the Rev B KIO3

Re: [Elecraft] Mobile from 117 VAC

2017-10-09 Thread Edward R Cole
Ted, KN1CBR It seems to me simpler to set up a source of 13.6 vdc to power your SUV "portable" station. Running dc leads from the vehicle battery is simplest but you need to guard against discharging it so much that the vehicle will not start. With engine running you will get about 14.2vdc

Re: [Elecraft] Mobile from 117 VAC

2017-10-09 Thread Jim Brown
On 10/9/2017 1:02 PM, kg9hfr...@gmail.com wrote: I have a Toyota Prius that has a beat signal “right on 0.780MHz, WBBM - Chicago”. Have not had any issues related to my transmitter getting into anything though. Any discussion of mobile operation ought to include the bands in use. VHF/UHF is

Re: [Elecraft] Mobile from 117 VAC

2017-10-09 Thread kg9hfr...@gmail.com
I have a Toyota Prius that has a beat signal “right on 0.780MHz, WBBM - Chicago”. Have not had any issues related to my transmitter getting into anything though. Frank KG9H > On Oct 9, 2017, at 2:57 PM, Gary Smith wrote: > > "This > mechanism is a likely cause (or >

Re: [Elecraft] Mobile from 117 VAC

2017-10-09 Thread Gary Smith
"This mechanism is a likely cause (or contributing cause) to my 20M RF locking up the computer in my Toyota." I'm sort of amazed, I remember when the Camry came out in the 80's there was a lot said about how 20W from a 2M radio would kill the computer and Toyota wouldn't warranty that. It

Re: [Elecraft] Mobile from 117 VAC

2017-10-09 Thread Bob McGraw K4TAX
Frank:   Are you referring to AC ground {green wire} or AC neutral {white wire}? In my installation the battery negative is connected via a green wire to the trailer frame.  The battery negative is also connected to the DC distribution panel via a #4 black wire.    From the DC to AC inverter,

[Elecraft] SPE 1K-FA Amp hookup and ALC Question

2017-10-09 Thread Clay Autery
I'm being given an SPE 1K-FA for use with my fully current K3s. I'm being told that the K3s and SPE don't play well together using "ALC". A conflicting report is telling me that Elecraft addressed the ALC issue. Is this a resolved issue or not?  Can anyone provide any info on this? I am going

Re: [Elecraft] KX3 SSB ALC Mic Gain - a new problem

2017-10-09 Thread Bill Cotter
John, I sent my Elecraft MH3 microphone off to Bob Nagy, AB5N, to have the microphone upgraded with a high-fidelity electret element. The price was very reasonable and the turnaround was days. The audio reports I have gotten are great. Here is his contact info: "Robert Nagy, AB5N"

Re: [Elecraft] Mobile from 117 VAC

2017-10-09 Thread Jim Brown
It IS critical that all conductive parts of the vehicle be bonded together. It is critical for two reasons. First, because those parts carry antenna current on both TX and RX, and to be effective as a counterpoise, they must have good electrical contact. You're absolutely right about paint.

Re: [Elecraft] Mobile from 117 VAC

2017-10-09 Thread Charlie T
Try holding the ALT key while typing 253 to get the exponent as in "IR²" Similarly, ALT 0185, then 0186 for "XX¹º". I'm not sure this works with all systems, or, if it even translates correctly, but in my DELL running Outlook, I have access to a whole bunch of handy items by holding down the

Re: [Elecraft] Mobile from 117 VAC

2017-10-09 Thread kg9hfr...@gmail.com
I’m curious for the bonding guys.. Are you connecting the “ground” of the AC mains to the ground of the 12VDC as well as the ground on the inverter? Frank > On Oct 9, 2017, at 12:34 PM, Rick WA6NHC wrote: > > It's both. ;-) > > Rick nhc > > > On 10/9/2017 10:07 AM, Jim

Re: [Elecraft] Mobile from 117 VAC

2017-10-09 Thread Dave Fugleberg
If your intent is to operate portable (buddipole in a parking lot) as opposed to mobile, then none of the issues you described about bonding, ferrites, vehicle electrical systems, etc come into play anyhow. Just use the 12v from the vehicle battery (fused of course). You can operate quite awhile

Re: [Elecraft] Mobile from 117 VAC

2017-10-09 Thread Rick WA6NHC
It's both.  ;-) Rick nhc On 10/9/2017 10:07 AM, Jim Brown wrote: On 10/9/2017 9:56 AM, Rick WA6NHC wrote: Mobile HF is an art. No, it is SCIENCE. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home:

Re: [Elecraft] Mobile from 117 VAC

2017-10-09 Thread Rick WA6NHC
My RV has a 3 KW inverter; I've not noted noises from it on any band but it was NOT cheap and it has it's own battery supply (not the house battery) and the radio has it's own battery supply.  There is no physical contact, only proximity. We're not in disagreement here but we're approaching

Re: [Elecraft] Mobile from 117 VAC

2017-10-09 Thread Jim Brown
On 10/9/2017 9:56 AM, Rick WA6NHC wrote: Mobile HF is an art. No, it is SCIENCE. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post:

Re: [Elecraft] Mobile from 117 VAC

2017-10-09 Thread Jim Brown
On 10/9/2017 9:00 AM, Rick WA6NHC wrote: Overall, not a great plan. Using an inverter, you will introduce RF noise, generate heat and poor regulation, I've used "good" ones (Samlex "pure sine wave" with FCC Part 15 Class B certification) and they ARE NOISY.  Using a lot of ferrite cores got

Re: [Elecraft] Mobile from 117 VAC

2017-10-09 Thread Rick WA6NHC
Only if you have another counterpoise prepared other than the vehicle; otherwise it all needs to be bonded to the vehicle to raise the (already meager) antenna efficiency.  Short HF vehicular antennas only run in the lower single digit efficiencies, Buddipole or not.  You have to do all you

Re: [Elecraft] Mobile from 117 VAC

2017-10-09 Thread Bob McGraw K4TAX
For a 100 watt PEP HF radio or like VHF/UHF radio, the correct solution is a 3 wire system.  Positive - connected and fused at the battery and radio ends, Negative - connected and fused at the battery and radio ends, AND a 3rd wire connected to the firewall/frame {not battery negative} of the

Re: [Elecraft] Mobile from 117 VAC

2017-10-09 Thread Eric J
It doesn't sound like you are operating mobile at all if your antenna is a Buddipole in a parking lot. Leave the vehicle turned off. No ignition noise or bonding to worry about. If that limits your operating time, carry another battery to power the rig (maybe a gel cell for safety) when you

Re: [Elecraft] Mobile from 117 VAC

2017-10-09 Thread Rick WA6NHC
Overall, not a great plan. Using an inverter, you will introduce RF noise, generate heat and poor regulation, unless you get a quality inverter (not cheap).  It's inefficient too and space wasteful. If you use a power port (no longer called cigarette plugs), you will again introduce noise

Re: [Elecraft] Mobile from 117 VAC

2017-10-09 Thread Rick Robinson
I used a Swan 14A converter way back when. Never noticed any bad hash. Just the whine when I keyed down. > > > > -- > Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/ > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home:

Re: [Elecraft] Mobile from 117 VAC

2017-10-09 Thread Ignacy
This is entirely unnecessary. Use the cigarette lighter and MFJ power conditioner. While you radio requires 20A peak, the power conditioner reduces it to about 8 A average, which the cigarette lighter will do easily. Ignacy, NO9E -- Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/

Re: [Elecraft] OT: Wireless Headphone

2017-10-09 Thread bill steffey
get one of those cheap FM bdcst band wireless sets ... THEY ARE ANALOG... REMEMBER THAT STUFF ,. NO DSP NO LATENCY HARBOR FREIGHT FOR 10$ us IF YOU DON'T LIKEIT , GUT IT AND USE THE RADIO ON A SENNHEISER. I previously used a second receiver & BLU TOOTH to simul monitor the

Re: [Elecraft] Mobile from 117 VAC

2017-10-09 Thread Bob McGraw K4TAX
Although when using our travel trailer, I operate the radio from the 12V battery system,  I do have installed a 12 volt to 120 volt pure sine wave inverter.  This takes care of things such as computer, microwave, TV's and of course the all required "hair dryer" and etc.    The unit is rated at

[Elecraft] KPA1500 Shipping

2017-10-09 Thread James Wilson
*On Mon Oct 9, **Randy Boates* rboates at incentre.net wrote: > Not yet... I am curious when this will start According to the Elecraft website, KPA1500

Re: [Elecraft] OT: Wireless Headphone

2017-10-09 Thread Bob N3MNT
I have tried several. I have not found any that work for me on CW. Rcv is not an issue, but sending is very difficult. -- Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/ __ Elecraft mailing list Home:

[Elecraft] Kpa1500 shipping

2017-10-09 Thread Randy Boates
Not yet... I am curious when this will start Randy VE6RMB __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by:

[Elecraft] K3S Speaker buz

2017-10-09 Thread Chris via Elecraft
Hi my speaker on my K3S is buzzing it stops when I turn the AF down is there anything that I can try to stop it thanks Chris GM4YLN __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help:

Re: [Elecraft] Mobile from 117 VAC

2017-10-09 Thread Al Scanandoah
DC to AC inverters are notoriously noisy EMI/RFI-wise, even the so-called pure sine wave units. There's a good chance you'll have spurs right where you're trying to listen. There *are* good units out there, but they're not cheap, and you'll still have to go through the exercise of proper

Re: [Elecraft] K3s rear mic connector and shure SM58.

2017-10-09 Thread Jim Brown
On 10/6/2017 4:27 PM, Richard Day wrote: Why did you turn the mic bias off? Have you tried turning it on to see if it gives you the sound you need? Bias for mics does not "improve the sound" of a mic. Rather, bias makes electret mics work (you'll get no sound from them without bias), and can