Re: [Elecraft] Random wire lengths for antennas

[Ignacy]

KXAT3 has trouble matching high impedance antennas. No problem matching
anything using BL-1, BL-2, or any other 4:1 (or 9:1) balun although for odd
impedances the balun may have substantial losses. But I prefer balun than
antenna-tuner overheating. 

Probably all wire longer than 1/4 lambda radiate nearly all. Vertical above
5/8 lambda start generating high lobes. Horizontal add a few db because of
ground reflections but also lobes. 

Once I made an experiment trying a vertical with a few radials, a random
long wire with radials, or two random long wires as a semidipole, all fed by
TV ribbon.  In all cases, two random wires were the best, often by far,
across bands.  But setting up a portable vertical is easy,  one long wire is
hard, and 2 long wire is the hardest. 

In a nutshell, random wires are fine with exact length unimportant. If
tuning problems, use a small balun. 

Ignacy, NO9E



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View this message in context: 
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Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [Elecraft] Random wire lengths for antennas

[Dean L]

I believe that is why Jeff, kg7hdz, provided a link to an excel chart that
has lengths of NO half waves in US ham bands. Saves a bunch of math.

Making the Antenna " End fed non halfwave( in the ham bands )wire" or the
EFNHWW.
Whew
73 all
Dean K2WW
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Re: [Elecraft] Random wire lengths for antennas

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

The "antenna tuner" is part of the antenna more than it is the rig, even if
it is inside the box! 

I have a L-net tuner (a circuit like in the Elecraft ATUs) consisting of a
large ceramic roller inductor and a "transmitting" type variable (0.3" plate
spacing) that I use with my Inverted L. It works beautifully on all bands,
even where the impedance is so high a neon bulb on the shelf near the tuner
flashes when I transmit. 

Compressing a tuner enough to fit inside of an amp or a K3 means
compromising on what sort of voltages can be tolerated. That is why you
can't get too close to 1/2 wavelength, even though 1/2 wavelength is where
the antenna will be the most efficient. 

Engineering is always a tradeoff. 

73 Ron AC7AC

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Lynn
W. Taylor, WB6UUT
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2017 1:02 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Random wire lengths for antennas

Not an alternate definition, but we have to recognize that just any old
random length won't work.

If the wire is near 1/2 wavelength on a band, the impedance at the end will
be very high, and the tuner may not be able to match it.

In truth, we're really talking about non-resonant antennas, so numbers like
53' keep coming up.

It was easier before 60m and 30m and 17m and 12m because all of the ham
bands were harmonically related, and the math was simpler.

73 -- Lynn

On 1/29/2017 7:55 AM, Tom McCulloch wrote:
> I guess we need an alternate definition of "random" ;-)
>
> Tom
>
>  wb2qdg
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Re: [Elecraft] Random wire lengths for antennas

[Nr4c]

Since when is an EFHW a Random wire?  It's not random, it's a half wavelength 
on a given frequency. 

A Random wire is a wire of any length not resonant on the frequency desired. 
But it's a Half Wave on SOME frequency!

Sent from my iPhone
...nr4c. bill


> On Jan 29, 2017, at 12:53 PM, Charlie T, K3ICH <pin...@erols.com> wrote:
> 
> OK, How about only Two types,
> by definition:
> 
> #1 EFHW (End Fed ½λ resonant wire)
> #2 NRW  (Non-Resonant wire)
> 
> Chas
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Ken
> Talbott
> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2017 11:14 AM
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Random wire lengths for antennas
> 
> Indeed we do.  And not just "random" but all flavors of end-fed antennae.  I
> get chastised for calling my end-fed-tuned-multi-band-trapped-wire-an
> tenna (actually it is an LNR MTR) an
> EFHW.  EFHW is simple to send.  Should I send EFTMBTWA?  Perhaps some smart
> people on the list will recommend a succinct, unambiguous naming convention
> for all flavors of end fed wire antennae.
> Ken - ke4rg
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Elecraft
> [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
> ] On Behalf Of Tom McCulloch
> Sent: January 29, 2017 10:55
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Random wire
> lengths for antennas
> 
> I guess we need an alternate definition
> of "random" ;-)
> 
> Tom
> 
>  wb2qdg
> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Random wire lengths for antennas

[Hank Garretson]

On Sun, Jan 29, 2017 at 1:01 PM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT <
k...@coldrockshotbrooms.com> wrote:


> If the wire is near 1/2 wavelength on a band, the impedance at the end
> will be very high, and the tuner may not be able to match it.
>

Why is that? A quick heuristic to help understand.

The current at the far end of a random wire is zero. One-quarter wavelength
from the far end, the current is maximum. Another one-quarter wavelength
along (total of one-half wavelength from far end) the current is zero.

I = E / Z>>   Z = E / I

So, one-half wavelength from the far end, Z is going to be whatever E is
divided by a very small number >>  VERY HIGH and hard to match.

This also explains why the impedance at the center of a half-wave dipole is
reasonable. Current at either end of the dipole is zero and high at the
center. Voltage at either end of the dipole is high and low at the center.

Z = E / I

At half-wave dipole center, low voltage at center divided by high current
at center gives a low impedance, easy to match.

It's all basic physics. There is no magic magic number or formula. Despite
what some antenna manufactures will tell you.

Ham Exuberantly,

Hank, W6SX
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Re: [Elecraft] Random wire lengths for antennas

[Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT]

Not an alternate definition, but we have to recognize that just any old 
random length won't work.


If the wire is near 1/2 wavelength on a band, the impedance at the end 
will be very high, and the tuner may not be able to match it.


In truth, we're really talking about non-resonant antennas, so numbers 
like 53' keep coming up.


It was easier before 60m and 30m and 17m and 12m because all of the ham 
bands were harmonically related, and the math was simpler.


73 -- Lynn

On 1/29/2017 7:55 AM, Tom McCulloch wrote:

I guess we need an alternate definition of "random" ;-)

Tom

 wb2qdg

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Re: [Elecraft] Random wire lengths for antennas

[Walter Underwood]

Balun Designs has a similar list of wire lengths hidden away as a link from the 
page for their 9:1 unun. 

http://www.balundesigns.com/content/Wire%20Lengths%20for%204%20and%209-1%20ununs.pdf
 


They also make excellent baluns (and ununs) at good prices. Putting their “QRP” 
balun (handles 250W) on my home dipole reduced the received noise by 6 dB.

http://www.balundesigns.com/model-9130-qrp-9-1-unun-1-5-54-mhz-300-watts/ 

http://www.balundesigns.com/qrp-model-1110-1-1-isolation-choke-balun-1-54-mhz/ 


wunder
K6WRU
Walter Underwood
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)

> On Jan 29, 2017, at 4:16 AM, a45wg  wrote:
> 
> You can download some code I wrote for this at 
> https://github.com/timseed/rnd_Wire.git 
>  
> 
> For those people who just would like “some data” this is the output of the 
> program listed above. I have not tried this data in EzNEC etc. The Spectrum I 
> was checking against from 160m to 10m including full 80m/40m as well as 30m 
> and 60m bands.
> 
> 
> 
> Possible good length at 6.0M 19.69Ft
> Possible good length at 6.99M 22.94Ft
> Possible good length at 8.26M 27.09Ft
> Possible good length at 10.1M 33.14Ft
> Possible good length at 12.01M 39.39Ft
> Possible good length at 13.99M 45.89Ft
> Possible good length at 18.01M 59.08Ft
> Possible good length at 20.2M 66.28Ft
> Possible good length at 24.01M 78.77Ft
> Possible good length at 24.77M 81.27Ft
> Possible good length at 27.75M 91.06Ft
> Possible good length at 29.56M 96.98Ft
> Possible good length at 33.03M 108.36Ft
> Possible good length at 34.97M 114.72Ft
> Possible good length at 40.41M 132.56Ft
> Possible good length at 44.34M 145.47Ft
> Possible good length at 45.46M 149.13Ft
> Possible good length at 48.95M 160.61Ft
> 
> 
> Hope this helps,
>   Regards
> 
>   Tim A45WG
> 
>> On Jan 29, 2017, at 4:08 PM, James Rodenkirch  wrote:
>> 
>> Emory - before you cut any wire, go to the below url and peruse all of the 
>> info - unless you desire to operate have a 1/2 wavelength antenna (not a bad 
>> thing) and have a 1/2 wavelength tuner for the band of interest, mgo to the 
>> below url for recommended wire lengths that avoid 1/2 wave antenna lengths 
>> for the your bands of interest.  
>> 
>> http://www.hamuniverse.com/randomwireantennalengths.html
>> 
>> 71.5/72 de Jimm Rodenkirch K9JWV
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Re: [Elecraft] Random wire lengths for antennas

[Michael Babineau]

I use an 84 to 86 feet (W3EDP length) of #26 AWG Wire on a plastic camping 
clothesline reel 
and it matches quite easily with the KAT2 (K2 internal tuner) or the Elecraft 
T1.  This will match 
(and work reasonably well) from 80m through 10m as it is not close to a 
multiple of a half wave 
on any of the ham bands so it presents a reasonable impedance that can be 
matched by an autotuner. 

I use 5 X 16 foot radials on the ground as a minimum or Google “W3EDP" if you 
prefer to use an 
elevated “counterpoise”. 

Cheers

Michael VE3WMB 



>From: Wayne Burdick <n...@elecraft.com <mailto:n...@elecraft.com>>
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Random wire lengths for antennas
>Date: January 29, 2017 at 12:01:14 AM GMT-5
>To: "Emory Schley" <silverlo...@gmx.com <mailto:silverlo...@gmx.com>>
>Cc: Elecraft <Elecraft@mailman.qth.net <mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net>>


>Generally something in excess of 50' for both wires will provide adequate on 
>80 meters and up.

>Wayne
>N6KR
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Re: [Elecraft] Random wire lengths for antennas

[Charlie T, K3ICH]

OK, How about only Two types,
 by definition:

#1 EFHW (End Fed ½λ resonant wire)
#2 NRW  (Non-Resonant wire)

Chas

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Ken
Talbott
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2017 11:14 AM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Random wire lengths for antennas

Indeed we do.  And not just "random" but all flavors of end-fed antennae.  I
get chastised for calling my end-fed-tuned-multi-band-trapped-wire-an
tenna (actually it is an LNR MTR) an
EFHW.  EFHW is simple to send.  Should I send EFTMBTWA?  Perhaps some smart
people on the list will recommend a succinct, unambiguous naming convention
for all flavors of end fed wire antennae.
Ken - ke4rg

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
] On Behalf Of Tom McCulloch
Sent: January 29, 2017 10:55
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Random wire
lengths for antennas

I guess we need an alternate definition
of "random" ;-)

Tom

  wb2qdg


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Re: [Elecraft] Random wire lengths for antennas

[Augie "Gus" Hansen]

Hi Ken,

How about EFRW (End Fed Random Wire). It shouldn't matter whether it is 
just a piece of wire or one with traps, loading coils, or any other 
lumped reactance. And it's also "simple to send".


73,
Gus Hansen
KB0YH

On 1/29/2017 9:13 AM, Ken Talbott wrote:

Indeed we do.  And not just "random" but
all flavors of end-fed antennae.  I get
chastised for calling my
end-fed-tuned-multi-band-trapped-wire-an
tenna (actually it is an LNR MTR) an
EFHW.  EFHW is simple to send.  Should I
send EFTMBTWA?  Perhaps some smart
people on the list will recommend a
succinct, unambiguous naming convention
for all flavors of end fed wire
antennae.



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Re: [Elecraft] Random wire lengths for antennas

[Ken Talbott]

Indeed we do.  And not just "random" but
all flavors of end-fed antennae.  I get
chastised for calling my
end-fed-tuned-multi-band-trapped-wire-an
tenna (actually it is an LNR MTR) an
EFHW.  EFHW is simple to send.  Should I
send EFTMBTWA?  Perhaps some smart
people on the list will recommend a
succinct, unambiguous naming convention
for all flavors of end fed wire
antennae.
Ken - ke4rg

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
] On Behalf Of Tom McCulloch
Sent: January 29, 2017 10:55
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Random wire
lengths for antennas

I guess we need an alternate definition
of "random" ;-)

Tom

  wb2qdg


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Re: [Elecraft] Random wire lengths for antennas

[Tom McCulloch]

I guess we need an alternate definition of "random" ;-)

Tom

 wb2qdg


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Re: [Elecraft] Random wire lengths for antennas

[a45wg]

You can download some code I wrote for this at 
https://github.com/timseed/rnd_Wire.git 
 

For those people who just would like “some data” this is the output of the 
program listed above. I have not tried this data in EzNEC etc. The Spectrum I 
was checking against from 160m to 10m including full 80m/40m as well as 30m and 
60m bands.



Possible good length at 6.0M 19.69Ft
Possible good length at 6.99M 22.94Ft
Possible good length at 8.26M 27.09Ft
Possible good length at 10.1M 33.14Ft
Possible good length at 12.01M 39.39Ft
Possible good length at 13.99M 45.89Ft
Possible good length at 18.01M 59.08Ft
Possible good length at 20.2M 66.28Ft
Possible good length at 24.01M 78.77Ft
Possible good length at 24.77M 81.27Ft
Possible good length at 27.75M 91.06Ft
Possible good length at 29.56M 96.98Ft
Possible good length at 33.03M 108.36Ft
Possible good length at 34.97M 114.72Ft
Possible good length at 40.41M 132.56Ft
Possible good length at 44.34M 145.47Ft
Possible good length at 45.46M 149.13Ft
Possible good length at 48.95M 160.61Ft


Hope this helps,
Regards

Tim A45WG

> On Jan 29, 2017, at 4:08 PM, James Rodenkirch  wrote:
> 
> Emory - before you cut any wire, go to the below url and peruse all of the 
> info - unless you desire to operate have a 1/2 wavelength antenna (not a bad 
> thing) and have a 1/2 wavelength tuner for the band of interest, mgo to the 
> below url for recommended wire lengths that avoid 1/2 wave antenna lengths 
> for the your bands of interest.  
> 
> http://www.hamuniverse.com/randomwireantennalengths.html
> 
> 71.5/72 de Jimm Rodenkirch K9JWV
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Re: [Elecraft] Random wire lengths for antennas

[Wayne Burdick]

Generally something in excess of 50' for both wires will provide adequate on 80 
meters and up.

Wayne
N6KR


On Jan 28, 2017, at 5:38 PM, "Emory Schley"  wrote:

> My KX2 Owner's Manual, page 10, says "A length of about 25 feet for each 
> wire, matched to the KX2's output using an antenna tuner (see ATU, pg. 11) 
> will typically provide good performance on 40-10 m. (Without an ATU, resonant 
> lengths are required for each band.) This antenna is ideal for outings where 
> all gear must fit into a small bag (e.g., our model CS-40)."
> 
> I just bought my KX2 in late November/December 2016, so I presume this is the 
> latest edition of the Owner's Manual.
>  
> Emory Schley
> N4LP
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Re: [Elecraft] Random wire lengths for antennas

[Thorpe, Jeffrey]

Look here:

http://www.hamuniverse.com/randomwireantennalengths.html

Jeff -kg7hdz

On Jan 28, 2017, at 7:16 PM, Matt Zilmer 
> wrote:

What Rev do you see on the front cover?

73,

matt W6NIA


On 1/28/2017 5:38 PM, Emory Schley wrote:
My KX2 Owner's Manual, page 10, says "A length of about 25 feet for each wire, 
matched to the KX2's output using an antenna tuner (see ATU, pg. 11) will 
typically provide good performance on 40-10 m. (Without an ATU, resonant 
lengths are required for each band.) This antenna is ideal for outings where 
all gear must fit into a small bag (e.g., our model CS-40)."

I just bought my KX2 in late November/December 2016, so I presume this is the 
latest edition of the Owner's Manual.
 Emory Schley
N4LP
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Matt Zilmer, W6NIA
[Shiraz]

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Re: [Elecraft] Random wire lengths for antennas

[Matt Zilmer]

What Rev do you see on the front cover?

73,

matt W6NIA


On 1/28/2017 5:38 PM, Emory Schley wrote:

My KX2 Owner's Manual, page 10, says "A length of about 25 feet for each wire, 
matched to the KX2's output using an antenna tuner (see ATU, pg. 11) will typically 
provide good performance on 40-10 m. (Without an ATU, resonant lengths are required for 
each band.) This antenna is ideal for outings where all gear must fit into a small bag 
(e.g., our model CS-40)."

I just bought my KX2 in late November/December 2016, so I presume this is the 
latest edition of the Owner's Manual.
  
Emory Schley

N4LP
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Always store beer in a dark place.  - R. Heinlein

Matt Zilmer, W6NIA
[Shiraz]

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Re: [Elecraft] Random wire lengths for antennas

[murphy]

True enough, so I initially used about 25 feet (actually 29 feet) but it failed 
on 60 and 80 meters.  I wanted to work all the covered bands.  So my 
recommendation is to use 58, 29 feet to cover them all.  Maybe something 
shorter will also work, but I will let others cut more wire first 


On 01/28/2017 08:38 PM, Emory Schley wrote:

My KX2 Owner's Manual, page 10, says "A length of about 25 feet for each wire, 
matched to the KX2's output using an antenna tuner (see ATU, pg. 11) will 
typically provide good performance on 40-10 m. (Without an ATU, resonant 
lengths are required for each band.) This antenna is ideal for outings where 
all gear must fit into a small bag (e.g., our model CS-40)."

I just bought my KX2 in late November/December 2016, so I presume this is the 
latest edition of the Owner's Manual.
 
Emory Schley
N4LP

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