named,are Condorcetists who at least used to be on
this meiling list. So, if one or more of those people reads this message,
then send e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], so that I can e-mail details to you
about the important Condorcet current events that I described.
Mike Ossipoff
Either Markus or Craig Carey, I'm not quite sure which, said:
However, Mike Ossipoff always describes the Floyd algorithm as
follows:
for i in range(N)
for j in range(N)
for k in range(N)
low=min(B[A(i,j)],B[A(j,k)]
if lowB[A(i,k)]
B[A(i,k)]=low
Wrong. I don't call that the Floyd
Here is an algorithm to implement BeatpathWinner. It seems to me that
someone called the strongest beatpaths algorithm the Floyd algorithm. But
maybe not. When Markus said that the fragment of code that he quoted didn't
work to find the shortest path, he may have been referring to the overall
-truncated fragment the Floyd algorithm, and that was what I
was saying in my previoius posting here tonight.
I don't know if our strongest beatpaths algorithm is the Floyd algorithm,
and I don't care. It finds strongest beatpaths. I'll tell Rus to delete the
name.
Mike Ossipoff
that finding the shortest path between two candidates can
somehow be part of some method for finding the strongest one, l of course
wouldn't try to contradict you on that. It isn't something that I would
take a position on.
Mike Ossipoff
that the BeatpathWinner algorithm wouldn't work.
Mike Ossipoff
That person continued:
... The more I think about it, the more I
believe it might be this:
http://www.fairvote.org/ChoicePlus/
http://votingsolutions.com/
I have nothing to do with the fairvote website. The other one, I'd have to
check to find out
that it's stubborn not to take Markus's word for whatever
he says, in spite of Markus's long history of mis-statements?
So it's really entirely unclear what you think that I was being stubborn
about.
Mike Ossipoff
_
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that it's stubborn not to take Markus's word for whatever
he says, in spite of Markus's long history of mis-statements?
So it's really entirely unclear what you think that I was being stubborn
about.
Mike Ossipoff
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Grab our best dial
reply:
I won't debate whether there was a need to insult you. But can you look at
your ridiculous statement that I quoted directly above, and say that there
wasn't a reason to call you an idiot?
Mike Ossipoff
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with the false statement Mike claims. On the contrary, I am certain that
Markus explicitly acknowledged the python program would probably work as it
is currently written.
I reply:
I quote from Markus's posting on 15 December, '03:
However Mike Ossipoff always describes the Floyd algorithm
repeats till no stonger
beatpaths can be found between any ordered candidate pairs means that it
still has the same obvious validity that it had before.
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But if you want a copy of it, you might want to ask him.
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of a website that has such a description of such
an algorithm?
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the
Floyd algorithm. More fiction on your part.
Markus continued:
In the same mail
you admit that you have mistakenly believed Eppley's algorithm to be
Floyd's algorithm
I reply:
You catch on fast :-) At least now you've finally found out that I've been
saying that all along.
Mike Ossipoff
Matt said:
It is the python code towards the bottom of http://www.electionmethods.org/
It says Mike Ossipoff provided the algorithm, and Russ Paielli programmed
it.
It also says: Determine beatpath magnitudes
statement after 18 December, when I'd made it clear that I was no longer
callling it the Floyd algorithm.
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Election
.
If there's proof that the re-arrangement can accomplish that then I'll ask
the website owner to re-arrange the indices in that way.
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separately
to each one of the others, is preferred to him/her by
more people than vice-versa).
With Approval or wv Condorcet, every situation has at
least one Nash equilibrium in which no one reverses a
sincere preference.
Mike Ossipoff
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Make
-independent--Cloneproof SSD (CSSD). Later I
found out that Markus had described CSSD.
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Election
is Floyd's algorithm.
I reply:
Yes, we all get the idea.
Now, as I said, if you have anything further to say about that, send it as
individual e-mail. Summarize it in one message only. But further postings
from you here about that are unwelcome, to me, and to the other list
members.
Mike Ossipoff
wv. The fact that SSD and MAM have been shown to meet GSFC
greately increases their value.
GSFC is the deluxe SFC that applies even when there's no CW.
PC has been shown to meet SFC.
Mike Ossipoff
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choices. IRV saves your favorite by eliminating
him. A sort of electoral euthanasia.
If IRV's Later-No-Harm advantage is the kind of benefit that we get from
Later-No-Harm, then it's questionable how important that criterion is.
Mike Ossipoff
No-Later-Harm. I'd post the example, but I don't know where to look for it.
You could find it just as well as I could.
Mike Ossipoff
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, this is why I've tried to discourage MinMax as a name for PC:
MinMax is used with too many different meanings for it to be of any use as
the name of a count method.
Mike Ossipoff
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the preference ordering ABC, then half of them vote for B.
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a particular sincere ranking, half of them vote
for their middle candidate.
For IRV, have them all vote sincerely, to show what happens to them when
they do.
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choice, and a 0/3 probability he'll vote
for his 4th choice. So the expectation for what he'll give a candidate in
that Approval approximation is the same as what he'd give him in Borda. That
dramatizes the ratings-influenced similarity between Approval Borda.
Mike Ossipoff
pointed the way to the
best rank-counts.
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by defensive truncation.
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I said:
Ties are solved by having all the rankings give an Approval vote to each of
their ranked candidates.
That should say ...to each of their ranked candidates who are in the tie.
So it should say:
Ties are solved by having all the rankings give an Approval vote to each of
their ranked
that have been defined here could
benefit from these anti-order-reversal enhancements if people considered
order-reversal a probem and wanted to deal with it. All these best methods
are truncation resistant. Their only defensive strategy need occurs if
offensive order-reversal is attempted.
Mike
. That should be checked out. That
combination, wv and automatic candidate withdrawal might turn out to be a
winning combination that will further improve wv's freedom from strategy
need.
Mike Ossipoff
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, which wv has been shown to
meet.
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on some specified
map, by a simple formula such as I've described, are the way to draw the
districts.
Mike Ossipoff
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each of which contains the
desired district population.
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has less than half of the desired district
population, then move the band's south border northward till the band
contains population for an integer number of districts. Repeat the procedure
to divide the band into rectangles each containing the desired districit
population.
Mike Ossipoff
shapes are convex and can fit together when not the same size?
Rectangles and triangles. Rectangles are more orderly than triangles would
be, and have a simpler automated districting formula.
Mike Ossipoff
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in rectangles made by a
simple formula
(simple when we don't count the house-jog rules) than for concave districts
of irregular shape, especially if human input went into those irregular
concave shapes.
Mike Ossipoff
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depends on what people are found to like. I'd start by
offering SSD MAM, then SD, Smith PC, then PC.
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. It all depends on what people are found to like. I'd start by
offering SSD MAM, then SD, Smith PC, then PC.
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compass direction line)?
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works.
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. But that
isn't true of the gnomonic when it's mapping a country. Well of course a
country as large as Russia would have somewhat more departure from
rectangularness than the U.S. would.
Mike Ossipoff
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-candidate example doesn't even require a computer to determine the winner.
Perhaps Matt should hire someone who is able to code perl.
With 3 candidates, MAM (aka RP), SSD, CSSD, PC all give the same outcome:
The winner is the candidate whose defeat is the least.
Mike Ossipoff
. But that
isn't true of the gnomonic when it's mapping a country. Well of course a
country as large as Russia would have somewhat more departure from
rectangularness than the U.S. would.
Mike Ossipoff
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little, it turns out.
Of course, for a large oblong area, a district at an extreme end of that
area would more nearly have a side towards the center of the map rather
than a corner.
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doesn't meet any of them.
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-reversal
were considered a problem.
The above definition is for public elections. For committees, organizations,
meetings, and polls, using the Schwartz set instead of the Smith set would
be a refinement, provided that the participants accept its slightly wordier
definition.
Mike Ossipoff
consider important, with defensive strategy properties like
those of wv, while minimizing other strategy incentives.
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can be is interesting, and it requires
mentioning certain trivial, minor, unimportant, but avoidable strategy
incentives of the best simple rank-counts, the best rank-counts currently
being proposed, the wv methods.
Mike Ossipoff
posted and reply tomorrow.
Thanks for bringing those methods and links to my attention. I'm interested
in proposals for better methods. When was the suggestion to elect a
candidate who can win at Nash equilibrium first posted?
Mike Ossipoff
postings that you linked to, and will reply
tomorrow.
Again, thanks for the proposal information and links. I've been looking for
proposals for possibly better methods.
Mike Ossipoff
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.
Don't vote for Kucinich in the primary. Vote for Sharpton. Then vote for
Nader in the general election (or maybe Camejo if he wins the Greens'
nomination)
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is meant by symetrically completed?
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by letting IRV proponents pave the way.
I reply:
Thanks, but no thanks. Just what we need: Having bunglers pave the way for
us.
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methods, rankings falsified in that way would hamper
those methods' ability to deter offensive order-reversal by defensive
truncation.
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is equivalent to a
series of identical Approval elections, as I discussed earlier, and that,
therefore, your best CR strategy is to give maximum points to some
candidates an minimum points to the rest.
Mike Ossipoff
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claim that your method is as good as, or better
than, wv requires that you show why the criteria that your method meets and
wv doesn't meet are more important than the criteria that wv meets and your
method doesn't meet.
Mike Ossipoff
candidate and wins.
With wv, the A voters' offensive order-reversal backfires, due to the
defensive truncation, and is therefore well-deterred.
With margins? Don't expect any good properties that way, since margins'
subtractions erase majority information.
Mike Ossipoff
no change.
I reply:
You make it sound as if IRV's inadequacy were somehow unavoidabale. But it's
merely the avoidable result of the fact that the busiest promoters won't
take the trouble to educate themselves.
Mike Ossipoff
_
Rethink your
Kevin--
You said:
I think you may be confused about the process of Symmetric Completion
as different from the criterion.
I reply:
I'm not interested in what you think. It would be more worthwhile if you
could tell us why you think what you think.
Did I say something that suggested that I
preferences that the voter didn't express.
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Chris said:
Here is an example that Mike Ossipoff posted (Tues.Jan.20)
Presumed sincere preferences:
40:ABC
25:BAC
35:CBA
100 ballots. B is the Condorcet Winner (and the IRVE winner).
A voters Bury (offensively order-reverse against)B, while all other voters
vote sincerely:
I reply:
Let me
progressives do.
And the transfer reports don't give sufficient information to tell whether
IRV has failed as we describe.
Mike Ossipoff
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criteria they prefer. Some like LNH, and they seem to not switch to
saying they like something else better. I've consistenly expressed
preference for methods that meet the defensive strategy criteria, FBC, SFC,
GSFC, WDSC, SDSC.
Mike Ossipoff
ones, then vote for your favorite, because
that's Plurality's 0-info strategy.
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for the standard(s) that, consciously or unconsciously LNH is
based on.
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in Dave's criticism of our choice of criteria, for
instance.
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conditions that
I've described. Is that true of SCRRIRVE?
That's why I say that SCRRiRVE's properties haven't been determined. A few
examples won't do.
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to a statement never made.
In this python code, you also wrote:
Mike Ossipoff provided the algorithm, and Russ Paielli programmed it.
In so far as I gave a concrete quotation where you mistakenly called
your implementation Floyd algorithm, how can you still claim that I
misquoted you?
I reply:
I
on the accuracy of these statements. If
one or more of them isn't correct, then I'd be glad for someone to mention
that.
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of protection? :-) How would you like to have
a bodyguard who believed in IRV's notion of how to protect someone?
IRV's protection of your favorite from harm by your 2nd choice amounts to a
sort of electoral euthanasia.
Mike Ossipoff
, and if it
isn't defining everything that needs to be defined, then I'll urge that we
put up all the definitions that are needed.
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that should be added, or
whose meaning isn't clear, so that I can relay such comments to the owner of
the website.
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of the
candidate whose greatest defeat is the least.
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method will be used.
The better the SU promise of that method is, the better your expectation for
that future election is.
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the
criteria that are proposed.
And it also shouldn't surprise anyone if the we recommend methods that do
well by the criteria and standards that we consider important.
Mike Ossipoff
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repeated it yet again.
Since I never criticized you for giving information about the Floyd
algorithm, I don't know to whom you're replying. Do you hear voices? Is that
it?
Is it that you're continually posting to tell us about your hallucinations?
Mike Ossipoff
like Approval satisfies CC, under the same sort of
interpretation given for MC. (At least as these two criteria are depicted
I reply:
It would probably better to go by our definitions, instead of your sort of
interpretation, when handing down your ruling about what meets our
criteria.
Mike
of truncation (or
defensive
equal-ranking
could
be used too, but, because equal ranking isn't a
deterrent, the
truncation
would
be a better defense in a devious electorate).
You continued:
Mike Ossipoff wrote:
I'd said:
That's the subject of the criterion SFC. GSFC
generalizes SFC to
situations
where
that s/he actually did vote.
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that the Floyd algorithm is
different from our implementaton because the Floyd algorithm alters the
index-order.
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, GSFC, WDSC, SDSC.
I haven't tested every possible rank method by SFC, but I've tested all the
widely-proposed ones.
It's obvious that Craig is the teacher from whom Markus has been taking
lessons on grammar, and standards for accuracy of statements and relevance
of replies.
Mike Ossipoff
.
If Markus wouldn't mind too much, I'll be the one to name the methods that I
propose.
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. Of course you have a right to your own standards. But
you're wrong when you say what should be of concern for others.
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and
probabilities, and so the abovementioned strategies are the ones to
recommend.
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side, several members indicated that they are
interested in efficient algorithms to calculate the strengths
of the strongest paths.
I reply:
Good. Do you think you can limit yourself to that, or other voting system
topics, when you post on this list?
Mike Ossipoff
that.
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, that's strategy intended to take victory from a
CW, or to make someone win in violation of majority rule.
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Election
to define majority rule in terms of cycles, even
for non-pairwise-count methods. But really, what could nullify a majority
defeat except a cycle of them?
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can start with Condorcet's Criterion.
Previously you gave us a CC, claiming it to be equivalent to mine, but
there was a problem: Plurality passes the CC that you wrote. So we won't
count that, and we'll let you try again.
Mike Ossipoff
can start with Condorcet's Criterion.
Previously you gave us a CC, claiming it to be equivalent to mine, but
there was a problem: Plurality passes the CC that you wrote. So we won't
count that, and we'll let you try again.
Mike Ossipoff
that Mike Ossipoff and Russ Paielli
mistakenly called a different algorithm Floyd algorithm and that
with the correct Floyd algorithm the strengths of the strongest
paths can be calculated in a runtime of O(N^3), where N is the
number of candidates, then this wasn't an attack.
I reply:
No one has
distinguishes your postings.
If you don't like our criteria or methods, tell us what you think is wrong
with them or be so good as to be quiet.
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.
Here's something better:
s/he
hir replaces him, her, his, her.
hirs
hirself
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Criterion?
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if, should we count only his/her ballot, with
everyone but X Y deleted from it, X would be the unique winner.
[end of 2 voting definitions]
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be
done, I like to be the one who shows that it can be done.
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, and BeatpathWinner fails your SDSC.
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