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There are some significant difference in the history of emissions and
immunity between the United Sates and Europe.
First, the power systems are different. The U.S. has more separation
between residential, commercial and industrial customers. There tend to be
very few customers connected to a
In message
9d04b979323dcd428297dda95108893e0120c...@bb-corp-ex2.corp.cubic.cub,
dated Fri, 2 May 2008, Price, Edward ed.pr...@cubic.com writes:
However, the US market has become just about as regulation-controlled
as the European market, so I expect that someday we will see immunity
Fascinating thought processes here.
Who will protect the consumer? And from whom?
It is one thing to impose EMI requirements on equipment to be installed in
close proximity on platforms. There as pointed out the close proximity of
susceptible equipment to high power sources, and not mentioned
A customer of mine is looking for a notified body for EMC and LVD for a piece
of electrical test equipment intended for use by power companies in diagnosing
line quality issues. USA or EU location.
Any recommendations would be helpful.
Please provide off line.
Thanks,
Doug Kramer
Don
FYI
Be wary, with the term consumer products which is also used in
California energy efficiency legislation.
Had correspondence with California Energy Commission in the past as to
the EPS being used with a professional/industrial product would or would
not be in scope of the energy
European standards are written up in consultation with industry to be
realistic and workable (in theory). It may be the STATE that enforces it but
industry has defined it.
I would rather buy one laptop knowing it will work rather than have to go
through 10 laptops till I find one that works.
Ken Javor wrote:
But in the absence of that situation, which is clearly where we are at
in the USA, it is either comical or tragical that someone feels that
the government must step in to provide protection not afforded by the
invisible hand of the free market. If I buy a laptop that
Companies who make shoddy or even merely susceptible equipment may be
expected to deny the problem exists,or to blame it on the (even lawful)
source of interference, or simply refuse to do anything about it. In the
United States there is almost always an implied warranty that an item sold
is
Doubtless Industry could do with less regulation, but the regulations
implemented by government give the individual (the individual being
cited regularly in the examples) some protection in that if a product is
formally declared as meeting an immunity regulation, but proves not to
in real use,
Hi everyone,
I having trouble understanding the requirements for use of a Class IIIa laser
(laser pointer) for alignment purposes into a product line. Would I be
required to file an annual report to the CDRH. Now my research tells me that
if I conform to IEC60825-1 (self approving) or 1040.11
Correction Should be IEC60825-1 not IEC60950
From: Mark Schmidt
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 10:17 AM
To: 'emc-p...@ieee.org'
Subject: Class IIIa Laser
Hi everyone,
I having trouble understanding the requirements for use of a Class IIIa laser
(laser
Wow! The chart shows 2A at 45V for Class II, or 100VA as you note. This is a
lot of energy to me, and can certainly result in ignition given the correct
conditions. I note that the standard also shows voltages above SELV as
permissible.
The implication in the original question was information
Curt writes:
To phrase this another way: someone else's label (the power supply
manufacturer) is not a valid indicator that a product has a safety approval.
If I understand the original question correctly, this is what it really comes
down to. The power supply may be Listed by itself, but
A lack of perspective is on display here. First, has anyone anywhere bought
ten of anything to find one that works – and in the total absence of
immunity requirements? Of course not, that is an exaggeration to make the
author’s point. But all this ignores a larger and much more important
truth.
Apple still turn out cracking products even with today’s regulations, the
customer pays for the regulation as part of the purchase price.
Looking at my Iphone I can’t see any part of its functionality that is
hindered by regulation, but plenty that is hindered by good old marketing and
The general public might not know why that washing machine shuts down every
once in awhile, but they will understand the machine is unreliable, and when
they got to replace it they will go to a different manufacturer. No
handcuffs.
Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261
From: Cortland Richmond
LPS designated power supplies are specified for ITE when there is no fire
enclosure (i.e., plastic enclosure not qualified for fire enclosure).
Other standards achieve fire protection by specifying a maximum of 15W power
source if there is no fire enclosure (IEC 60065).
Don Umbdenstock
Apple is now and has been established since the introduction of the Mac
(1984). The point is that the established companies profit from the raised
level playing field, and newcomers are penalized.
Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261
From: Richards, Carl
Not at all, since the price of any product includes the cost of achieving
compliance, amongst other things.
If you said I object to paying so much for a product and compliance is a major
contributor to the bottom line then I might agree with you.
Carl
In message c44093a9.1a207%ken.ja...@emccompliance.com, dated Fri, 2
May 2008, Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com writes:
First, has anyone anywhere bought ten of anything to find one that
works ?
Excluding tin-openers, of course. (;-)
and in the total absence of immunity requirements? Of
I don’t understand how the first statement applies to the idea that all
these regulations are a barrier to entry, but just a cost of doing business to
the established players.
Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261
From: Richards, Carl carl.richa...@aspect.com
Where is limited power/voltage/current required for Class II
construction ? Did you intend to say Class 2 power source ?
luck,
Brian
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of
Curt McNamara
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 7:38 AM
To: ted.eck...@apcc.com
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
From: Curt McNamara
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 7:38 AM
Wow! The chart shows 2A at 45V for Class II, or 100VA as you
note. This is a lot of energy to me, and can certainly result
in ignition given the correct conditions.
Perhaps, but not enough to start a fire, cause an electric shock
Ken,
For those of you who live in California, or who have ever traveled
there, just how many health hazards are ?known to the State of
California? ? And what is the rate-of-increase of such postings? One
would come to the conclusion that either the state of California is
much smarter than
The fact remains that a new or existing company must design its products to
meet Regulations. A newcomer has to figure out the cost of it products prior
to embarking upon actually designing and making them, only the very poorest
newcomer (poorest in the sense of piss poor planning) would embark
Hi, Mark.
I'm not really certain what your asking. Do you want to know if you must file
a laser safety report with the CDRH? If so, then yes.
If you're trying to understand which standard to use, 21CFR or IEC 60825-1, the
answer is either, but there is some additional text required when you
Hi Peter,
Thank you,
Yes - I needed to know if I am required to file with CDRH. Is there a
standard form to use or guidance document to follow? I could not find
this.
Thanks again,
Mark Schmidt
mschm...@xrite.com
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Tarver,
Peter
In message c4409994.1a23c%ken.ja...@emccompliance.com, dated Fri, 2
May 2008, Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com writes:
I don?t understand how the first statement applies to the idea that all
these regulations are a barrier to entry, but just a cost of doing
business to the established
In message
e1e443d9fa97c74d8cd610a12f276e6095d...@asp1exch2.aspect.com, dated
Fri, 2 May 2008, Richards, Carl carl.richa...@aspect.com writes:
only the very poorest newcomer (poorest in the sense of piss poor
planning) would embark upon the design of a product and then discover
that it?s
No, the EMC and safety guys are told to make it pass, but don't change
anything. :-)
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John
Woodgate
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 9:08 AM
To: Richards, Carl
Cc: Ken Javor; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: FCC Immunity
My solution was to hang a regulatory engineer in every development team
from day 1. Then give the team a set of requirements in writing on day
2. With a follow on delivery of test data to regulatory on the second
set of protos. This data rubs the teams nose in issues before they get
to a
I have to disagree with the statement
Only a few enlightened companies build in safety and EMC from Day 1 of
the design phase.
Many companies rely on already qualified devices for safety and to some
extent EMC. As such much of the safety EMC considerations are built in
form the start
From: Benoit Nadeau
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 6:38 AM
If a PCB manufacturer buys a card cage that includes a fully
listed power supply (approved by UL or CSA or ETL or any
NRTL), and stuff this cage with his own PCBs (not listed)
with no harmful external voltages or access to, and
From: Mark Luksich
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 9:22 AM
My solution was to hang a regulatory engineer in every
development team from day 1.
I think the Romans just used a sword when they decimated the troops, but
hanging probably works just as well.
Peter
CONFIDENTIALITY
This e-mail
Refer to Lines 60, 63
http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfggp/results.cfm?doc_office=OCERdoc_division=DMQRPdoc_title=sort_order=
You will need to unwrap the long URL.
Regards,
Peter L. Tarver, PE
ptar...@ieee.org
-Original Message-
From: Mark Schmidt
Sent: Friday,
In message
2c0b573b18ce4443bd0a51b829393c10011c4...@de01exm73.ds.mot.com, dated
Fri, 2 May 2008, Luksich Mark-TXP763 mark.luks...@motorola.com writes:
My solution was to hang a regulatory engineer in every development team
from day 1. Then give the team a set of requirements in writing on
In message
f7b09bd65c39e742b520485ce4001c990389e...@azsmsx418.amr.corp.intel.com,
dated Fri, 2 May 2008, Heiland, Leo J leo.j.heil...@intel.com
writes:
I have to disagree with the statement
Only a few enlightened companies build in safety and EMC from Day 1 of
the design phase.
Many
Peter - Thanks - I am not sure how I missed it but I did.
Mark Schmidt
mschm...@xrite.com
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Tarver,
Peter
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 12:43 PM
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: Class IIIa Laser Correction
Refer to Lines 60, 63
Hi Benoit,
You state that the built-in power supply is “fully listed and approved by UL
or CSA or ETL or any NRTL” (I’m not sure what that statement actually
means). Generally, such a power supply is not Listed, but is a Recognized
Component and as such it likely has Conditions of
A more basic question. Would Edison? slight bulb have ever illuminated
the night if an environmental impact statement had predicted the
electrical power infrastructure necessary to support it, and the
resultant ?man-made global warming??
When measured against the emissions of the candles, oil
Although it is a minor correction, let me state that soot from inefficient gas
lighting and coal burning was a major source of pollution in the early 20th
century. In St. Louis, the Missouri Botanical Gardens bought a large piece of
property far from the city with the intention of moving their
Bonjour Benoit:
If a PCB manufacturer buys a card cage that includes a fully listed power
supply (approved by UL or CSA or ETL or any NRTL), and stuff this cage with
his own PCBs (not listed) with no harmful external voltages or access to, and
resell this as a whole new product. Can he
In message
ofe513f2ab.b06c3d9e-on8525743d.0060578f-8525743d.00613...@lexmark.com,
dated Fri, 2 May 2008, oover...@lexmark.com writes:
If we all lived closer to our jobs the same would be true.
Come to Britain. If you lived more than about 80 miles away, you'd fall
into the sea.
If we didn't
Precisely my point. The Ubermensch morphs into Overlord. Electricity is
rationed, we are told where to live and in what size domicile, what we can
drive if we are allowed private autos, and the list would not doubt go on
forever. Many of these types of controls were indeed in place during WWII,
And the same crowd that is screaming man made global warming was
screaming man made ice age 35 years ago. Disaster de jour for exactly
the purpose you point out, Ken. Sorry, I'm not drinking that cool aid.
Ghery Pettit
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Ken
Javor
On May 1, 2008, at 8:37 AM, Benoit Nadeau wrote:
So the question is:
If a PCB manufacturer buys a card cage that includes a fully listed
power
supply (approved by UL or CSA or ETL or any NRTL), and stuff this cage with
his own PCBs (not listed) with
Bonjour Benoit:
The devil is in the details.
If the Card Cage is LISTED and it has a particular model number and now you
add data cards to it and
you sell the Card Cage under a different model numbers ( that will vary
depending upon your various configurations ) the Card Cage then becomes
Immunity is critical for anyone involved in safety or systems that can
impact the health of individuals. Three examples I know about:
Walkie-talkie interference causing control panel malfunction
Walkie-talkie interference causing death of an employee.
Cell phone usage causing malfunction of
On a similar vein as the laser discussions:
Are there any safety requirements for high output (low voltage/power) LEDs
for use in household lamps? US and EU are the focus de jour.
In my simple research the answer has been no. The standards for previously
used lamps exist, but not LEDs. Is
Hi Doug:
Check out the new IEC standard, IEC 62471,
Photobiological Safety of Lamps and Lamp
Systems.
The Scope is:
This International Standard gives guidance for evaluating the photobiological
safety of lamps and lamp systems including luminaires. Specifically it
specifies the
Last year, UL released document UL 8750 entitled Outline of Investigation for
LED Light Sources for Use in Lighting Products. This document covers risk of
shock, fire and biological hazards such as retina damage.
The following two links are not extremely helpful, but could provide some
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