EV Digest 6368
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Reviving flooded batteries
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Reviving flooded batteries
by "mike young" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: EVLN(Voltageville vied for Tesla EV plant)
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Discharged Batteries
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Discharged Batteries
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Weird Battery Problem
by Tom Watson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: EVLN(Lotus' 644hp E-SUV, 350mi range, 155mph top speed)
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Discharged Batteries
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Debating purchasing an EV
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: EVLN(Lotus' 644hp E-SUV, 350mi range, 155mph top speed)
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Weird Battery Problem
by "Fred Hartsell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Distilled water sources. Was: Re: Reviving flooded batteries
by "Matt Kenigson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Weird Battery Problem
by "Fred Hartsell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Discharged Batteries
by "Matt Kenigson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Weird Battery Problem
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: EV Album Hits The Magic 1000 Active Entries
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: EVLN(Lotus' 644hp E-SUV, 350mi range, 155mph top speed)
by "Simon Chambers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: EVLN(Lotus' 644hp E-SUV, 350mi range, 155mph top speed)
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: EVLN(Lotus' 644hp E-SUV, 350mi range, 155mph top speed)
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EVLN(Lotus' 644hp E-SUV, 350mi range, 155mph top speed)
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Reviving flooded batteries
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Discharged Batteries
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Weird Battery Problem
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On 31 Jan 2007 at 12:39, Matt Kenigson wrote:
> Where does one get "new battery acid mixture"?
At a friendly battery dealer.
>
> Also, is there enough lead left in the system to make up for the lost lead
> sulfate?
>
No. The apparent capacity added by reconcentrating the electrolyte will
cause the electrodes to be overdischarged on each cycle, accelerating the
battery's final demise.
There are no magic tricks that really work and last. Lost battery capacity
can't be recovered.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi, the man over at the electric lift truck repair shop says their trick is
to turn the batteries upside down and tap on them quite a lot and then put
them back upright and charge them. I am just repeating what he said what do
you guys think. mike young -solectria force cars
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 1:37 PM
Subject: Re: Reviving flooded batteries
On 30 Jan 2007 at 18:53, Brian M. Sutin wrote:
The method [to "rehabilitate" old batteries] is: (etc.)
This is an old EVers trick. It will get you a few more cycles. But
you've
restored the capacity of the electrolyte without a concomitant restoration
of the electrodes' capacity. Now you will overdischarge the plates on
every
cycle. This will finish off the battery even faster.
Bottom line (IMO) for good battery performance :
1. Add nothing to your battery but clean distilled water.
2. Discharge it at rates appropriate to its design and don't exceed 80%
DOD.
3. Using a smart charger (or smart and attentive person ;-), charge it
promptly and completely. *
4. Keep it clean.
5. If it doesn't have enough capacity to do its job, replace it.
There are no "miracle cures" that have any lasting effect. Lost capacity
can't be recovered.
= = = = =
*See Lee Hart's basic charging instructions here :
http://www.evdl.org/pages/hartcharge.html
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Myles Twete wrote:
> Maybe Tesla should work a deal out with Daimler/Freightliner
> in Portland. Last week Freightliner announced 800 local layoffs
> and the ending of Freightliner Truck production in Portland.
> An entire assembly line factory is being shut down and assembly
> robots and equipment are being sent elsewhere.
The sad thing about it is that in most cases, it is less expensive to
build a new facility than to rework an old facility. Walking away and
leaving old buildings, older employees, and old problems empty is handy
-- new facilities generally come with new incentives, clean property
(environmentally), and more junior employees (cheaper).
Also, when mentioning Daimler/Freighter working with Tesla, you left a
few key government players out of the discussion... few of these large
projects seem to happen without pork-barreling through every layer of
elected officials, pickup up state/region-subsidized tax
forgiveness/incentive plans. along the way.
I long for a simpler time when business was between businesses, with
less government stuck in the mix. To bring this back to EVs, are we more
subsidized or thwarted by the government?
Randii
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Darin,
I never liked the "hot wire in water" method. So I use large power
resistors. MECI has some for cheap.
http://www.meci.com/index.php
Look under resistors, under braking. There is a 0.069 Ohm resistor for $7.
It is probably rated about 1000 watts. By the time you add cable resistance,
you will be close to 75 amps. Who cares if it is 69 or 81 amps? Use the same
set up on a known good battery and same for the ones in question and compare
times. I use an old forklift contactor, but you could get by without that. I
would use some type of disconnect, like an Anderson, so you not fussing with a
nut and bolt to disconnect battery. Things will get hot. You'd also have to
fab up a support for the resistor. Laying it on a piece of wood will probably
get smokey. Put two resistors in parallel and it will cut your test time down.
Good luck.
Jeff
"Darin -a-t- metrompg.com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Lee Hart wrote:
> Get or make a battery tester. For this purpose, it's a 6v battery
> charger, a voltmeter, a load resistor that draws about 75 amps, and
> watch or timer of some sort to see how long it can supply 75 amps before
> it falls to 5.25v. If they can't deliver 75 amps for at least 60
> minutes, they're shot -- don't waste your time or money on them.
So clearly the automotive battery tester I have isn't good enough to
properly load test my freebie 6v floodies. Both its resistance and
recommended test duration is too low.
Any suggestions on what kind of commonly available 75a load I could hook
up to a 6v battery to test it?
I had read in the archive that someone had made a load tester with a
length of coat hanger wire immersed in a bucket of water, connected to
the battery with jumper cables. Is there an easier DIY method that
could be calibrated to 75a?
Darin
---------------------------------
Looking for earth-friendly autos?
Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.candhsales.biz/cgi-bin/shop991/shop.pl/SID=776832678/page=results.htm
select RS9552 RESISTORS HIGH POWER RESISTORS 0.171
ohm.
and use 2 in parallel for approximately 70-80 amps
Rod
--- "Darin -a-t- metrompg.com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Lee Hart wrote:
>
> > Get or make a battery tester. For this purpose,
> it's a 6v battery
> > charger, a voltmeter, a load resistor that draws
> about 75 amps, and
> > watch or timer of some sort to see how long it can
> supply 75 amps before
> > it falls to 5.25v. If they can't deliver 75 amps
> for at least 60
> > minutes, they're shot -- don't waste your time or
> money on them.
>
> So clearly the automotive battery tester I have
> isn't good enough to
> properly load test my freebie 6v floodies. Both its
> resistance and
> recommended test duration is too low.
>
> Any suggestions on what kind of commonly available
> 75a load I could hook
> up to a 6v battery to test it?
>
> I had read in the archive that someone had made a
> load tester with a
> length of coat hanger wire immersed in a bucket of
> water, connected to
> the battery with jumper cables. Is there an easier
> DIY method that
> could be calibrated to 75a?
>
> Darin
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A good question to ask is ...
do you have static straps on the vehicle?
athough as someone else mentioned, the charger ground may also
provide a loop.
Tom
--------------<<<<>>>>-------------
"Peter" wrote
And the ground.
> No, I made sure that I was not touching anything with my human
flesh. I
> rechecked this measurement several times with the same results. I
am a
> newby in the EV world but I have been around computer and
electronics for
> about 35 years so I am not new to using a multi-meter. During that
> measurement the battery and the chassis had no physical connection
other
> than the multi-meter and of course the air.
>
> Thanks, Fred
__________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
There is more detailed report on CNET:
http://news.com.com/2100-11389_3-6154854.html
The important bits:
to be on sale by the end of 2008
350 miles range
155mph
10-min recharge capability
cost target: $60 000
CNET reporter dropped in a link to Altair ..
If this was for real, i'd buy it. Thats basically the specs for a
dream car PLUS its a Lotus
The pricetag would be justified.
/kert
On 1/31/07, Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Here is a six letter word for you: Touché!
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 10:37 AM
Subject: Re: EVLN(Lotus' 644hp E-SUV, 350mi range, 155mph top speed)
> On 30 Jan 2007 at 20:23, bruce parmenter wrote:
>
>> ... all-electric SUV ... codeveloped by Lotus and ZAP ...
>
> Let me guess. This news release came from Zap, not Lotus.
>
> [Uncovers eyes.] Was I right? Did I win? ;-)
>
> Perhaps I'm just a cynic. But it seems to me that Zap and the late,
> unlamented BAT have more in common than a 3-letter name.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Administrator
>
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> Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
> To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
> the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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>
>
>
> --
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Darin -a-t- metrompg.com wrote:
So clearly the automotive battery tester I have isn't good enough to
properly load test my freebie 6v floodies. Both its resistance and
recommended test duration is too low.
Right! Normal car batteries just have to deliver a high current for a
few *seconds* to be "good". Deep cycle EV batteries have to deliver high
currents for many *minutes* at a time to be good.
I had read in the archive that someone had made a load tester with a
length of coat hanger wire immersed in a bucket of water, connected to
the battery with jumper cables. Is there an easier DIY method that
could be calibrated to 75a?
Well, this method is hard to beat for cheap and easy! But it does
require that you have a good enough meter to measure that 75 amps to
"calibrate" your coat hanger.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: 2007/01/31 Wed AM 10:19:29 EST
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Re: Debating purchasing an EV
>
> >
> > From: Jay Paroline <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> > As to the suggestion to look up other EVers in FL, so far I haven't
> > had any luck finding any in or near my area (Gainesville), but I will
> > keep looking!
> >
> Hi Jay
> I'm in Fort Pierce Florida ,,, and have a few EV's that I could made a deal
> on ,,, or if you need help on with the one your thinking about ,,, Steve
> Clunn 772 971 0533
> www.grassrootsev.com
>
>
> > I hope I haven't missed any questions/comments that were made to my
> > original post. Thanks again for the advice!
> >
> > Jay
> >
> >
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Death to All Spammers wrote:
> > ... all-electric SUV ... codeveloped by Lotus and ZAP ...
>
> Let me guess. This news release came from Zap, not Lotus.
>
> [Uncovers eyes.] Was I right? Did I win? ;-)
>
> Perhaps I'm just a cynic. But it seems to me that Zap and the late,
> unlamented BAT have more in common than a 3-letter name.
>
> David Roden
I thought the same thing, but I went to the Lotus site, and they have
the same info: http://www.grouplotus.com/mediactr/
Whether that means ZAP has improved their business model or Lotus has
been hoodwinked remains to be seen.
When I first read about this joint Zap/Lotus project it seemed like a joke.
The folks at Zap have always been what we -don't- want in the EV business.
OK... if I had to guess between the Lotus company being hoodwinked and the
ZAP people improving their business model I would have to guess that Zap has
brought some exceptionally gifted con artists aboard.
If something has changed as far a Zap is concerned, I haven't heard about
it.
Roy LeMeur
_________________________________________________________________
Laugh, share and connect with Windows Live Messenger
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The battery was on the ground but the truck was on a concrete pad along with
the 4 rubber tires that is on the truck so I do not see how there could have
been a connection.
Fred
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter VanDerWal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 1:08 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Weird Battery Problem
And the ground.
> No, I made sure that I was not touching anything with my human flesh. I
> rechecked this measurement several times with the same results. I am a
> newby in the EV world but I have been around computer and electronics for
> about 35 years so I am not new to using a multi-meter. During that
> measurement the battery and the chassis had no physical connection other
> than the multi-meter and of course the air.
>
> Thanks, Fred
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tim Humphrey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 11:46 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: RE: Weird Battery Problem
>
>
>>
>> Behalf Of Lee Hart
>>
>> From: Fred Hartsell
>>>I am using 20 Interstate u-2400 batteries... Last positive connection of
>> the
>>>pack to chassis ground was 115.7 vdc.
>>
>> You have a common problem; one that occurs sooner or later for anyone
>> with
>> flooded batteries. The outside of the battery has a coating of acid
>> mist,
>> which is making it slightly conductive -- enough so you can get a
>> "tingle"
>> from it, and enough to read on your high-impedance meter.
>>
>> Wash the batteries with water and a little baking soda to neutralize the
>> acid, and it will go away... for a while. As the batteries age, they gas
>> more, and the problem gets more frequent.
>>
>> It's also possible, though less likely, that you have a cracked battery
>> case
>> or a leak around a battery post. If so, the battery case will keep
>> getting
>> wet again even if you don't charge it to cause any gassing.
>
> That's what I was thinking... until I came to the part where he said
>
> "With the battery sitting on the ground beside of the truck, I again
> measure
> the chassis ground and the battery positive lug. I was still reading
> about
> 3.1 vdc."
>
> 'splain that!
>
> Fred you don't touch the ends of the test leads with your fingers while
> taking measurements do you? Well, don't, or you may be measuring you
> instead.
> --
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
> I-5, Blossvale NY
>
>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks. By the way, how are you guys getting your distilled water? With
all the gassing my batteries have been doing, it's been getting pretty
expensive buying distilled water from the store. It's more expensive than
gasoline at times, which gets my wife worked up. It's hard to argue with
your wife that it's not a valid comparison.
Matt
On 1/31/07, David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 30 Jan 2007 at 18:53, Brian M. Sutin wrote:
> The method [to "rehabilitate" old batteries] is: (etc.)
This is an old EVers trick. It will get you a few more cycles. But
you've
restored the capacity of the electrolyte without a concomitant restoration
of the electrodes' capacity. Now you will overdischarge the plates on
every
cycle. This will finish off the battery even faster.
Bottom line (IMO) for good battery performance :
1. Add nothing to your battery but clean distilled water.
2. Discharge it at rates appropriate to its design and don't exceed 80%
DOD.
3. Using a smart charger (or smart and attentive person ;-), charge it
promptly and completely. *
4. Keep it clean.
5. If it doesn't have enough capacity to do its job, replace it.
There are no "miracle cures" that have any lasting effect. Lost capacity
can't be recovered.
= = = = =
*See Lee Hart's basic charging instructions here :
http://www.evdl.org/pages/hartcharge.html
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No, I do not have static straps on the vehicle. The charger was
disconnected from the truck. I had disconnected all of the electronic
before I started my test on the batteries.
Thanks, Fred
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Watson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 3:22 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Weird Battery Problem
A good question to ask is ...
do you have static straps on the vehicle?
athough as someone else mentioned, the charger ground may also
provide a loop.
Tom
--------------<<<<>>>>-------------
"Peter" wrote
And the ground.
> No, I made sure that I was not touching anything with my human
flesh. I
> rechecked this measurement several times with the same results. I
am a
> newby in the EV world but I have been around computer and
electronics for
> about 35 years so I am not new to using a multi-meter. During that
> measurement the battery and the chassis had no physical connection
other
> than the multi-meter and of course the air.
>
> Thanks, Fred
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My father in law actually gave me a battery tester that puts a load on the
battery while testing. Unfortunately, it's analog, so the readings are not
very precise, but I've been using it along with a digital meter to get
really good loaded readings.
The tester is essentially a heater coil in a metal box with a meter on the
cool(er) end. I'll try to see if I can tell what the brand name or
manufacturer is. If I can't figure it out, I'll as my father in law.
Matt
On 1/31/07, Darin -a-t- metrompg.com <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Lee Hart wrote:
> Get or make a battery tester. For this purpose, it's a 6v battery
> charger, a voltmeter, a load resistor that draws about 75 amps, and
> watch or timer of some sort to see how long it can supply 75 amps before
> it falls to 5.25v. If they can't deliver 75 amps for at least 60
> minutes, they're shot -- don't waste your time or money on them.
So clearly the automotive battery tester I have isn't good enough to
properly load test my freebie 6v floodies. Both its resistance and
recommended test duration is too low.
Any suggestions on what kind of commonly available 75a load I could hook
up to a 6v battery to test it?
I had read in the archive that someone had made a load tester with a
length of coat hanger wire immersed in a bucket of water, connected to
the battery with jumper cables. Is there an easier DIY method that
could be calibrated to 75a?
Darin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Fred Hartsell wrote:
> No, I do not have static straps on the vehicle. The charger was
> disconnected from the truck. I had disconnected all of the electronic
> before I started my test on the batteries.
Try connecting a 10K resistor between the two points you were measuring
the voltage across and then measure.
If you still see about 3V, then it gets more mysterious, but if you now
see 0V, then it seems that the voltage you were seeing is an artifact of
the very high input impedance of the meter, even if we can't come up
with a convincing/definitive explanation of what the path was between
the battery and truck.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike and All,
In addition to thanking you for your album work over the years, I would
also like to thank you for the off-list help that you gave me as a newbie.
I have an e-mail from you that dates back to early '99, when I dove into
the EV thing, and was looking at purchasing an old 007! And while I'm
thanking old timers that helped me off-list years ago, my hat also comes
off to someone that convinced me to join this list at our first meeting,
when he was doing NEDRA filming at Bandimere's, John Bryan...
Thanks for all your help,
BB
>Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 19:05:12 -0600
>From: Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>Thanks everyone, it is nice to be appreciated. Since Aaron Choate
>has been hosting it for me and Jerry Halstead did all the code on the
>new site, it wasn't exactly all me. Really, you folks made it happen
>and continue to make it happen by sharing your EVs with everyone else.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Mike Chancey
>Webmaster
>EV Photo Album
>http://evalbum.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think it will be real, just not electric. If you read the original
article, it says that the current v6 engine will be replaced by the electric
gear. So I should imagine that ZAP is doing the electrics and Lotus the
rest. Even if ZAP didn't produce their side of the bargain, Lotus will have
produced a marketable SUV. So it seems to me that Lotus is also in it for
the publicity of an electric SUV which, even if it doesn't turns electric,
will/should have plenty of publicity in America.
What kind of destroys any hope for me with it becoming electric is the
Forward Looking Statement from ZAP at the end of the press release. "Readers
of this press release are cautioned not to put undue reliance on
forward-looking statements.". Easy get out clause for ZAP?
Cheers,
Simon
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Roy LeMeur
> Sent: 31 January 2007 9:14 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: EVLN(Lotus' 644hp E-SUV, 350mi range, 155mph top speed)
>
> Death to All Spammers wrote:
> > > > ... all-electric SUV ... codeveloped by Lotus and ZAP ...
> > >
> > > Let me guess. This news release came from Zap, not Lotus.
> > >
> > > [Uncovers eyes.] Was I right? Did I win? ;-)
> > >
> > > Perhaps I'm just a cynic. But it seems to me that Zap and the late,
> > > unlamented BAT have more in common than a 3-letter name.
> > >
> > > David Roden
> >
> >I thought the same thing, but I went to the Lotus site, and they have
> >the same info: http://www.grouplotus.com/mediactr/
> >
> >Whether that means ZAP has improved their business model or Lotus has
> >been hoodwinked remains to be seen.
>
> When I first read about this joint Zap/Lotus project it seemed like a
> joke.
>
> The folks at Zap have always been what we -don't- want in the EV business.
>
> OK... if I had to guess between the Lotus company being hoodwinked and the
> ZAP people improving their business model I would have to guess that Zap
> has
> brought some exceptionally gifted con artists aboard.
>
> If something has changed as far a Zap is concerned, I haven't heard about
> it.
>
>
>
> Roy LeMeur
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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This is all extremely bizarre beyond words. I had always thought of Lotus as
a reputable business building quality products. Sometimes you are viewed by
the world with the company you keep. If anyone has some thoughts on the
subject you can always write to Lotus Engineering at
http://www.grouplotus.com/contact/general_enquiry.php?section=17 Maybe they
are just extremely ignorant and need to be educated or maybe they have a new
policy of not caring what people think of their business practices.
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: EVLN(Lotus' 644hp E-SUV, 350mi range, 155mph top speed)
There is more detailed report on CNET:
http://news.com.com/2100-11389_3-6154854.html
The important bits:
to be on sale by the end of 2008
350 miles range
155mph
10-min recharge capability
cost target: $60 000
CNET reporter dropped in a link to Altair ..
If this was for real, i'd buy it. Thats basically the specs for a
dream car PLUS its a Lotus
The pricetag would be justified.
/kert
On 1/31/07, Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Here is a six letter word for you: Touché!
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 10:37 AM
Subject: Re: EVLN(Lotus' 644hp E-SUV, 350mi range, 155mph top speed)
> On 30 Jan 2007 at 20:23, bruce parmenter wrote:
>
>> ... all-electric SUV ... codeveloped by Lotus and ZAP ...
>
> Let me guess. This news release came from Zap, not Lotus.
>
> [Uncovers eyes.] Was I right? Did I win? ;-)
>
> Perhaps I'm just a cynic. But it seems to me that Zap and the late,
> unlamented BAT have more in common than a 3-letter name.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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> Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
> To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
> the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
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> 1/30/2007
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
OK, what is it with ZAP and its business practices then ?
I realize this is a public forum etc, but i did search the archives
here and i didnt find anything that would explain these comments...
Care to provide a link to some reading material for newer members ? Or
just some key words to google on ?
-kert
On 1/31/07, Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
This is all extremely bizarre beyond words. I had always thought of Lotus as
a reputable business building quality products. Sometimes you are viewed by
the world with the company you keep. If anyone has some thoughts on the
subject you can always write to Lotus Engineering at
http://www.grouplotus.com/contact/general_enquiry.php?section=17 Maybe they
are just extremely ignorant and need to be educated or maybe they have a new
policy of not caring what people think of their business practices.
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: EVLN(Lotus' 644hp E-SUV, 350mi range, 155mph top speed)
There is more detailed report on CNET:
http://news.com.com/2100-11389_3-6154854.html
The important bits:
to be on sale by the end of 2008
350 miles range
155mph
10-min recharge capability
cost target: $60 000
CNET reporter dropped in a link to Altair ..
If this was for real, i'd buy it. Thats basically the specs for a
dream car PLUS its a Lotus
The pricetag would be justified.
/kert
On 1/31/07, Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Here is a six letter word for you: Touché!
>
> Roderick Wilde
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 10:37 AM
> Subject: Re: EVLN(Lotus' 644hp E-SUV, 350mi range, 155mph top speed)
>
>
> > On 30 Jan 2007 at 20:23, bruce parmenter wrote:
> >
> >> ... all-electric SUV ... codeveloped by Lotus and ZAP ...
> >
> > Let me guess. This news release came from Zap, not Lotus.
> >
> > [Uncovers eyes.] Was I right? Did I win? ;-)
> >
> > Perhaps I'm just a cynic. But it seems to me that Zap and the late,
> > unlamented BAT have more in common than a 3-letter name.
> >
> > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> > EV List Administrator
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
> > or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
> > To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
> > the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.17.17/661 - Release Date:
> > 1/30/2007
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.17.17/661 - Release Date: 1/30/2007
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
The blogosphere is already all over this. Here is an article from Wired News
which is not very favorable:
http://blog.wired.com/cars/2007/01/lotus_and_zap_t.html and there is this
comment from a blogger on Engadget:
[Mark B. @ Jan 31st 2007 2:44AM
The Zap guys are running a scam, in my opinion. See here:
http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_action=doc&p_docid=116D789249F23808&p_docnum=5&s_dlid=DL0107013106552117885&s_ecproduct=SUB-FREE&s_subterm=Subscription%20until%3A%2012%2F14%2F2015%2011%3A59%20PM&s_subexpires=12%2F14%2F2015%2011%3A59%20PM&s_username=santarosa&s_upgradeable=no
With self-righteous statements about how it has innovated the personal
electric transportation market, why is it that the majority of ZAP's sales
and profits come from one of its subsidiaries that sells used cars at the
corner of River and Fulton roads? How can ZAP and its management talk about
protecting the planet and how electric transportation will change the world,
and sell used cars to fund their erroneous statements? In fact, ZAP's latest
debacle with SMART cars was another venture into fossil fuel burning
vehicles.
When are we going to hear the truth about ZAP? ]
You certainly do not have to look far to find these kind of statements about
Zap on the web. They have worked very long hard at attaining their
reputation in the EV industry. You have to give them that :-)
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 1:14 PM
Subject: Re: EVLN(Lotus' 644hp E-SUV, 350mi range, 155mph top speed)
Death to All Spammers wrote:
> > ... all-electric SUV ... codeveloped by Lotus and ZAP ...
>
> Let me guess. This news release came from Zap, not Lotus.
>
> [Uncovers eyes.] Was I right? Did I win? ;-)
>
> Perhaps I'm just a cynic. But it seems to me that Zap and the late,
> unlamented BAT have more in common than a 3-letter name.
>
> David Roden
I thought the same thing, but I went to the Lotus site, and they have
the same info: http://www.grouplotus.com/mediactr/
Whether that means ZAP has improved their business model or Lotus has
been hoodwinked remains to be seen.
When I first read about this joint Zap/Lotus project it seemed like a
joke.
The folks at Zap have always been what we -don't- want in the EV business.
OK... if I had to guess between the Lotus company being hoodwinked and the
ZAP people improving their business model I would have to guess that Zap
has brought some exceptionally gifted con artists aboard.
If something has changed as far a Zap is concerned, I haven't heard about
it.
Roy LeMeur
_________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Is your comment of "it isn't worth trying" because of the tedious process?
> Not disagreeing, just not completely clear on it yet.
Actually, I believe he was refering to the fact (as stated numerous times
on this thread) that after all the work and money, you end up with very
little useable capacity and even that doesn't last for long.
These tricks are a bit like trying to re-burn a log after it's turned to ash.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Any suggestions on what kind of commonly available 75a load I could hook
> up to a 6v battery to test it?
I'm kind of partial to hooking two 6V batteries in series and then using a
common 1000W inverter. Plug a small heater into the inverter and voila',
large current draw on the 12V side.
> I had read in the archive that someone had made a load tester with a
> length of coat hanger wire immersed in a bucket of water, connected to
> the battery with jumper cables. Is there an easier DIY method that
> could be calibrated to 75a?
It doesn't get much easier than a coat hanger.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
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--- Begin Message ---
Concrete almost always has some water in it, it's usually a fairly good
conductor.
Dirt, etc. on the tires, especially if it's damp, can conduct electricity
(just not a lot).
Nothing to do with ground, but there is also the possibility that the
meter was measuring induced voltage from any number of things. Try
hooking one lead to the ground and the other to the vehicle frame and see
what you measure.
THe vehicle might be functioning as an antenna and collecting RF energy,
espcially once you provide a path to ground (could have been through
leakage paths on the battery in your earlier test)
> The battery was on the ground but the truck was on a concrete pad along
> with
> the 4 rubber tires that is on the truck so I do not see how there could
> have
> been a connection.
>
> Fred
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter VanDerWal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 1:08 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: RE: Weird Battery Problem
>
> And the ground.
>
>> No, I made sure that I was not touching anything with my human flesh. I
>> rechecked this measurement several times with the same results. I am a
>> newby in the EV world but I have been around computer and electronics
>> for
>> about 35 years so I am not new to using a multi-meter. During that
>> measurement the battery and the chassis had no physical connection other
>> than the multi-meter and of course the air.
>>
>> Thanks, Fred
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Tim Humphrey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 11:46 AM
>> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>> Subject: RE: Weird Battery Problem
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Behalf Of Lee Hart
>>>
>>> From: Fred Hartsell
>>>>I am using 20 Interstate u-2400 batteries... Last positive connection
>>>> of
>>> the
>>>>pack to chassis ground was 115.7 vdc.
>>>
>>> You have a common problem; one that occurs sooner or later for anyone
>>> with
>>> flooded batteries. The outside of the battery has a coating of acid
>>> mist,
>>> which is making it slightly conductive -- enough so you can get a
>>> "tingle"
>>> from it, and enough to read on your high-impedance meter.
>>>
>>> Wash the batteries with water and a little baking soda to neutralize
>>> the
>>> acid, and it will go away... for a while. As the batteries age, they
>>> gas
>>> more, and the problem gets more frequent.
>>>
>>> It's also possible, though less likely, that you have a cracked battery
>>> case
>>> or a leak around a battery post. If so, the battery case will keep
>>> getting
>>> wet again even if you don't charge it to cause any gassing.
>>
>> That's what I was thinking... until I came to the part where he said
>>
>> "With the battery sitting on the ground beside of the truck, I again
>> measure
>> the chassis ground and the battery positive lug. I was still reading
>> about
>> 3.1 vdc."
>>
>> 'splain that!
>>
>> Fred you don't touch the ends of the test leads with your fingers while
>> taking measurements do you? Well, don't, or you may be measuring you
>> instead.
>> --
>> Stay Charged!
>> Hump
>> I-5, Blossvale NY
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
> legalistic signature is void.
>
>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
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--- End Message ---
