EV Digest 6969
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Project #3 is a Lawn Mower
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: n00b in your midst
by "John Labrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Would you build if you could buy?
by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Weird Questions
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Weird Questions
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Jet Industries Ford Courier pickup for sale
by Roger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Slightly OT: Painting your EV for less than $100
by lyle sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Thundersky Exchange
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9) electric bicycle - need help
by James Drysdale <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) electric bicycle - need help
by James Drysdale <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Cheap
by Tony Hwang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: electric bicycle - need help
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Would you build if you could buy?
by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Series/Parallel and Forward/Reverse contactors
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Series/Parallel and Forward/Reverse contactors
by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Google presses for 100 MPG vehicle
by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Improving hillclimbing without mudering the pack?
by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) NiMH pack strategy
by Rob&Amy Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: electric bicycle - need help
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
If you use a PM motor and power it with the recommended voltage, it will
self govern without a speed control.
If you use a shunt wound motor, it behaves like a PM motor but you have the
option of field weakening to increase the speed.
If you use a series wound motor, you run the risk of overreving the motor
if/when a belt breaks or the clutch is disengaged. If you install a rev
limiter, there is no problem.
I got a PM motor for mine but have not had time to install it.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Former owner of 48 Volt Fiesta
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "mike golub" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 12:34 AM
Subject: Project #3 is a Lawn Mower
> Well, I am almost done with the 98 Chevy Metro, and I
> have driven over 6,000 miles on the 86 Toyota Pickup.
>
> I recently purchased a MTD riding mower it looks like
> the same model as Wayland's
>
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/38
>
> Of course, it is still stock and has a 12 HP B&S, a
> 38" cutting blade.
>
> So I was looking for motor recommendations. I will
> keep using it as a mower...And I was wondering if it
> was necessary to put a controller on the motor or just
> use the mowers speed control? It has reverse and
> forward.
>
> I also picked up a 78 Polaris snow machine, but I'm
> not too concerned about that at the moment.
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Michael G, Fairbanks
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
_______
> You snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with AutoCheck
> in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
> http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_html.html
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jeff
Sorry I will spend some time in the archives and websites. Thanks for
the heads up.
Regards
John
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
Sent: 29 June 2007 04:46 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: n00b in your midst
Dan does not speak for the list, and certainly not for me. This topic
comes up many times and I urge all to check archives before re-hashing
this discussion.
This may be something we should add to the instruction page.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 3:26 AM
Subject: Would you build if you could buy?
> This is as I look out at my 2001 Honda Insight that I bought brand new
and still love.
> I always wonder why these hybrid
> folks want to roll their own when they can just go out and buy one
straight
> from the factory.
in a recent report on TV honda insight hybrid sales in japan have crossed
the
one million mark .. how come they are not so much visible outside japan ?
and japanese users are probably as discerning as usa users .. they wouldn't
buy if those were not worth buying
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
First of all, charging one set while running off a second is not a good
strategy with Lead-Acid batteries. You'll get better range by running
both sets at the same time and using your charging current to reduce the
load on the batteries.
Second, 200 lbs worth of Lead-Acid batteries won't last 5 miles at 60 mph.
Probably only 4 miles, and that assumes that the batteries are
paralleled. If you use them as separate packs then you'll get 1 mile,
maybe 1.5 mile each set.
Where are you getting the charging power from and how much is it?
Quite focusing on torque, it's POWER that is important. At 60 mph the
Focus probably needs 15 HP to maintain speed on level ground.
A single group 31 Optima is good for about 10 HP (talking HP from the
motor not the battery), but it can only do this for 30 seconds. At say 7
HP, it can do it for maybe 1.5 minutes. It can produce 3-4 HP for maybe 4
to 5 minutes.
However, group 31 Optima's weigh 68 lbs each, 4 of them would weigh 272
lbs. So I guess you are looking at a different battery. I'm not aware of
any other battery that can perform as well as the group 31 Optimas under
this kind of abuse, so you'll probably get far less range than I've
indicated.
They make motors that can produce enough torque at low enough RPM to bolt
directly to a wheel. They cost about $25,000 give or take. That's why
almost nobody uses them.
A single Etek would be far to small for this purpose, Even two of them
won't produce 15 hp on 22V. The listed spec that states 15hp maximum
assumes they are running at 50vdc.
Probably a moot point though, since I don't think Eteks are available
anymore.
> I'm planning/hoping on using 200lbs worth of batteries. I believe I have a
> way to charge a bank of batteries while the other batteries are being
> drained. Hoping to use two 12 volt batteries Group 31 as one bank and
> another bank being charged while the others are being used.
>
> The initial goal is 25-30 mile range.
>
> For me I do about 85% of my driving at 60mph. I do very little in town
> driving.
>
> The 2007 Ford Fusion currently gets around 37 mpg on the highway which is
> wonderful because the sticker only suggest 32mpg.
>
>>From what I read I just need to produce around 60-80lbs-ft of torque and
> that should maintain 60mph.
> Most of the motors I've been eyeballing are turning 2000rpms plus. I need
> to
> gear it down to nearly match the wheel rpm of a 24" (diameter of the tire)
> at 800pms. I would preferrably like to find a motor that can bolt directly
> to the wheel so there will be no loss of power, however most motors are
> spinning too fast at there sweet spot to bolt directly to the wheel.
>
> http://www.electricmotorsport.com/PARTS/EtekSpecs.htm
>
> Kind of eyeballing this motor. (however it looks like it has to have a
> controller)
>
> I'm in the process of building a mock frame of what I'm up to. I think
> once
> others can see what I'm up to they maybe able to pinpoint flaws or offer
> improvements.
>
> God bless
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 8:25 PM
> Subject: Re: Weird Questions
>
>
>>I don't believe yo will get anywhere near your goal, in fact I believe
>> you
>> will end up with lower fuel economy over all.
>>
>> I gather that you are trying to do this as cheaply as possible? That
>> pretty much means Lead-Acid batteries.
>>
>> It takes about 800 lbs of Lead-Acid batteries to give the same range as
>> one(1) gallon of gas.
>> SInce you are not removing your existing ICE system, where are you going
>> to put 800 lbs worth of batteries, plus motor, etc?
>> Can your car handle the additional 1100+ lbs of weight?
>>
>> Have you considered what hualing around an extra 1/2 ton will do to your
>> fuel economy when you are NOT running the electric motor? Your ICE will
>> have to work much harder just to accelerate, to drive around at city
>> speeds, etc.
>>
>> I'd guess that the only time you will see better fuel economy is on
>> trips
>> that last at least 30 miles, but less than 60 miles.
>> Less than 30 miles, the extra fuel used for low speed traveling and
>> acceleration will offset the gains. More than 60 miles and the
>> batteries
>> will be empty and you will just be hualing around a 1/2 ton of dead
>> weight.
>>
>> So unless every trip you take is in that sweet spot, you are going to
>> end
>> up with low mileage than you currently get. Plus you will be wearing
>> out
>> the vehicle much faster due to all of the extra weight. This is hard on
>> the suspension, brakes, tires, bearings, etc.
>>> I thought I might take a moment to explain the basis of a few
>>> questions
>>> I've asked, as they might seem a little weird.
>>>
>>> What I'm hoping to build is an EV-Hybrid.
>>>
>>> The Concept.
>>> Use an existing gas powered vehicle (in my case a 2007 Ford Fusion) to
>>> propel the vehicle up to 60mph (legal highway speed in my state).
>>>
>>> Once reaching 60mph, flip the electric motor on to maintain 60mph.
>>>
>>> So basically I'm trying to learn the terminology and also understand
>>> what
>>> kind of components I would need to accomplish this project.
>>>
>>> Currently I'm thinking of something very simple a on off switch no
>>> controller, and cut off switch (not sure if that is the right term)
>>> when
>>> the
>>> brakes are applied, basically like the way cruise control works. I
>>> would
>>> then set my cruise control on the car at 55mph, or whatever to kick in
>>> if
>>> the electric motor became under stress.
>>>
>>> This should bump my gas mileage very high, I'm hoping for well over
>>> 100mpg.
>>> Obviously this type of setup would not benefit all, but would be a nice
>>> setup for a commuter that has a fair share of highway
>>> traveling/commuting.
>>>
>>> You can see some of the things I'm learning/progress at www.7change.com
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
>> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever
>> I
>> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
>> legalistic signature is void.
>>
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't think you understand what you're saying.
You need energy to charge a batt- where do you get it from if you're
discharging the others? If you had a magical electrical energy source
(fuel cell?) then you'd just drive the motor directly. Since we need
quite a lot of power to move @60 mph, we need quite a large power
source. Cars generally need more than just "a little push" to maintain
60 mph. The batts only store energy- and a fairly limited amount too.
Also when discharging you only get back something like 80% of the
electricity you put into the battery when charging. 200 lbs of batt
would present 2 problems- one, the ultimate capacity might only be able
to sustain 60 mph for 10 min or so. Second prob is most lead-acid would
run into bad problems if you tried to drain them that fast. Their
output voltage will be low, they'll overheat, have a fairly short
service life, and Peukert effect will predict that the capacity at this
rate is far, far less than the label's advertised rating which was for a
slow 20-hr discharge rate.
You seem to be describing 4 batts here, 2 banks of 2x 12v batts (24V).
That's not good for running a car because the currents required to get
sufficient power become totally impractical. Power=volts x amps.
Danny
Rob Hogenmiller wrote:
I'm planning/hoping on using 200lbs worth of batteries. I believe I
have a way to charge a bank of batteries while the other batteries are
being drained. Hoping to use two 12 volt batteries Group 31 as one
bank and another bank being charged while the others are being used.
The initial goal is 25-30 mile range.
For me I do about 85% of my driving at 60mph. I do very little in
town driving.
The 2007 Ford Fusion currently gets around 37 mpg on the highway which
is wonderful because the sticker only suggest 32mpg.
From what I read I just need to produce around 60-80lbs-ft of torque and
that should maintain 60mph.
Most of the motors I've been eyeballing are turning 2000rpms plus. I
need to gear it down to nearly match the wheel rpm of a 24" (diameter
of the tire) at 800pms. I would preferrably like to find a motor that
can bolt directly to the wheel so there will be no loss of power,
however most motors are spinning too fast at there sweet spot to bolt
directly to the wheel.
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/PARTS/EtekSpecs.htm
Kind of eyeballing this motor. (however it looks like it has to have a
controller)
I'm in the process of building a mock frame of what I'm up to. I think
once others can see what I'm up to they maybe able to pinpoint flaws
or offer improvements.
God bless
----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: Weird Questions
I don't believe yo will get anywhere near your goal, in fact I
believe you
will end up with lower fuel economy over all.
I gather that you are trying to do this as cheaply as possible? That
pretty much means Lead-Acid batteries.
It takes about 800 lbs of Lead-Acid batteries to give the same range as
one(1) gallon of gas.
SInce you are not removing your existing ICE system, where are you going
to put 800 lbs worth of batteries, plus motor, etc?
Can your car handle the additional 1100+ lbs of weight?
Have you considered what hualing around an extra 1/2 ton will do to your
fuel economy when you are NOT running the electric motor? Your ICE will
have to work much harder just to accelerate, to drive around at city
speeds, etc.
I'd guess that the only time you will see better fuel economy is on
trips
that last at least 30 miles, but less than 60 miles.
Less than 30 miles, the extra fuel used for low speed traveling and
acceleration will offset the gains. More than 60 miles and the
batteries
will be empty and you will just be hualing around a 1/2 ton of dead
weight.
So unless every trip you take is in that sweet spot, you are going to
end
up with low mileage than you currently get. Plus you will be wearing
out
the vehicle much faster due to all of the extra weight. This is hard on
the suspension, brakes, tires, bearings, etc.
I thought I might take a moment to explain the basis of a few
questions
I've asked, as they might seem a little weird.
What I'm hoping to build is an EV-Hybrid.
The Concept.
Use an existing gas powered vehicle (in my case a 2007 Ford Fusion) to
propel the vehicle up to 60mph (legal highway speed in my state).
Once reaching 60mph, flip the electric motor on to maintain 60mph.
So basically I'm trying to learn the terminology and also understand
what
kind of components I would need to accomplish this project.
Currently I'm thinking of something very simple a on off switch no
controller, and cut off switch (not sure if that is the right term)
when
the
brakes are applied, basically like the way cruise control works. I
would
then set my cruise control on the car at 55mph, or whatever to kick
in if
the electric motor became under stress.
This should bump my gas mileage very high, I'm hoping for well over
100mpg.
Obviously this type of setup would not benefit all, but would be a nice
setup for a commuter that has a fair share of highway
traveling/commuting.
You can see some of the things I'm learning/progress at www.7change.com
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do
whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am offering this here first, in case there is a list member who wants it.
Runs great, needs paint.
I am moving to a rural area in northern California, and must drive
+35miles each way.
So it has to go.
1981 Ford Courier Pickup truck that was converted by Jet Industries.
new Curtis 1221C controller (the PMC-25 died in january)
Pampered 3 year old Trojan T-105 120v pack. driven about 2-3 miles, 4
days a week
It was on the built-in SoleQ charger every day. Watered religiously
every month.
new 12v "house" battery
3 year old tires (purchased just after the Trojans)
Link-10 Emeter in dash
dc-dc converter (to isolate the Link-10)
new (january) front shocks
6 month old brakes
light-weight lumber rack
spare rear window (with pass-thru)
2 charger cables
2 user Ford manuals
SoleQ manuals
A solid workhorse. It even has the original Espar gas heater (never
used by me.)
I tested it and drove 25 miles on a charge. Once. YMMV
$5,500 to the list, if no one wants it, I'll post to the EV trading post
slightly higher.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The time of DIY spray paint booths at home is coming
to a close. EPA regulations have come into effect
restricting the sale of many automotive paints to the
at-home-builder but only to licensed paint shops and
dealers. This has put a major dent in the custom
motorcycle and custum car businesses. In effect many
talented artists and small businesses like pop-and-son
shops have been hit hard. I dont have to tell you
that many custom shops have derision toward this.
Now the thinning of rustoleum and roll-on-paint
technique looks interesting posted in this months
hodrodandcustoms, but the most that can be achieved is
a satin finish.
--- mperry wrote:
> Why not just spray it yourself? It'll cost about
> $150, but you can get a
> decent paint job at home.
>
> BTW, I'd be interested where you'd get enough paint
> for $100. House paint,
> right?
>
> On Thu, June 21, 2007 8:32 am, Brian Pikkula wrote:
> > Since the majority of our EVs are > 10 years old,
> the paint on them
> > isn't like it used to be. However, I have a hard
> time justifying spending
> > $2k for something that will not propel my EV.
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jukka
>From some of your past emails like the one below I had the impression you
were employed by TS.
> jukka wrote:
>> p.s.- I'm currently sitting in our office in TS factory (Shenzhen,
>> China). Any other questions guys?
Jukka
What is the company of yours that is in the office at the TS factory? What
do you do for that company?
Sounds like you should know now if this is going to happen correct? What is
CCS?
Don Blazer
>Ok Vic. Now you're already saying that there's no trusting in my words
>either ? Are you not being a bit steep towards me here ?
>Delivery dates and amounts will be confirmed when I have the complete
>list in my hand. I will go it through with Winston and send further
>details to people involved.
>Also before anything happens we will confirm the pickup procedures of
>the old cells so they can be verified and recycled properly. If the
>cells are missing or such we need to see it through case by case.
>I'm committed to this since I think I can pull this off. I've learned so
>much from the list and most of oldtimers here. From You too Victor. So
>can I now do something in return ?
-JukkaI just saw this message. Sorry for not replying earlier.
Me working for TS ? What ? Who said that ? I'm working for my own
company which is working closely with TS. Idea is to get the biz on the
rails in Europe. No aims what so ever for US markets.
Currently the battery factory is running red and leadtimes are growing.
New production line in on the way and will enable much better quality
and greater volume.
I've been working for years to complete the management system and
pursued only system sales. I have now also big reponsibility to
investors to make sure their millions are safe. In FEVT. Not in TS.
Wild sales of plain cells without waranty is NO GO. Sooo many
"professionals" have had "Ooops.." -stuff going on for years. I try to
get that stopped. It's hurting everyone in this biz in longer run.
I'm not referring to the group purchase since I WITNESSED the bad cell
delivery in Victors lab !
I will not allow any "replacements" because it would mean the users
would have the possiblity to burn their houses and relatives down to
ground by accident. If anything happens it will be a complete system
with sealed cases. NO TINKERING !
THEN...
I let the users to tell how they feel the new sets IF I can get the
cells below the CCS from TS. Now that's on agenda for tomorrow
morning... thumbs up!
-Jukka
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
G'day all,
Not an electric automobile, but an electric vehicle nonetheless.
I'd like to create a hybrid muscle-electric bicycle.
But I need some help.
1) Trying to work out how much *power* a specific 750W will actually
give me.
Power = (force * displacement) / time
Force = mass * acceleration
I am stuck, insufficient info and/or knowledge.
2) To move my fully-laden bicycle up to a speed of 80km/h
(49.67miles/h), how powerful a motor will I need?
Information I do have......
mass = 120kg
desired velocity = 22.2 m/s (80km/h or 49.67 miles/h)
Where I am stuck is in the acceleration & force equations.
I do not know how much acceleration and max forward velocity I can
achieve with a 750W motor.
This is the motor in question!!!
https://www.electricscooterparts.com/ShoppingCart.asp?ProductCode=MOT-36750G
>From this page.
http://www.electricscooterparts.com/motors.html
36volt
750watt
2500rpm geared down to 420rpm
I realise that there are other factors here that need addressing, like I
said, I need help.
Is it okay to disregard factors such as wind resistance for now?
Wind resistance increases as the square of the velocity or something
like that.....
Cheers all,
James Drysdale.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
SORRY!! THIS MESSAGE IS NOW TEXT.
BAH! THOUGHT I SET THE LIST AS TEXT-ONLY.
HOW EMBARRASSING.
G'day all,
Not an electric automobile, but an electric vehicle nonetheless.
I'd like to create a hybrid muscle-electric bicycle.
But I need some help.
1) Trying to work out how much *power* a specific 750W will actually
give me.
Power = (force * displacement) / time
Force = mass * acceleration
I am stuck, insufficient info and/or knowledge.
2) To move my fully-laden bicycle up to a speed of 80km/h
(49.67miles/h), how powerful a motor will I need?
Information I do have......
mass = 120kg
desired velocity = 22.2 m/s (80km/h or 49.67 miles/h)
Where I am stuck is in the acceleration & force equations.
I do not know how much acceleration and max forward velocity I can
achieve with a 750W motor.
This is the motor in question!!!
https://www.electricscooterparts.com/ShoppingCart.asp?ProductCode=MOT-36750G
>From this page.
http://www.electricscooterparts.com/motors.html
36volt
750watt
2500rpm geared down to 420rpm
I realise that there are other factors here that need addressing, like I
said, I need help.
Is it okay to disregard factors such as wind resistance for now?
Wind resistance increases as the square of the velocity or something
like that.....
Cheers all,
James Drysdale.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lee,
Thanks, this is very helpful, I wasn't aware these existed! I'm still learning.
:)
So would this be the proper way to hook them up? Excuse the poor picture using
MS Paint:
http://www.junk-jungle.com/linked/regulator.GIF
- Tony
----- Original Message ----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 7:22:40 AM
Subject: Re: Cheap
Lee Hart wrote:
> Tony Hwang wrote:
>> What are the ZL431 and LM138's?
>
> Sorry; My fingers were typing faster than my brain :-)
> The first should have been TL431 or ZT431.
Try ZTL431 or ZR431 for that second one. These are Zetex parts that cost
more than the TL431 but have some improvements.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There is an excellent article that I used way back in 1984 when I built myself
a recumbent bicycle. AC Gross, C.R. Kyle and DJ
Malewicki, "The Aerodynamics of Human-Powered Land Vehicles", Scientific
American, V. 249, pp. 142-152 December 1983
It talks about all the forces involved in moving a human power land vehicle.
One graph in particular plots speed with the Human
HP required to move the bicycle. A good athelete can produce 1HP for about 30
seconds. And your 750W motor is right in line with
a 1HP power plant. The graph indicates that a "Full Racing Crouch" with 1Hp
input could do roughly 36 mph. A recumbent with 1Hp
slightly better at 38 mph, and a full fairing Vector shape (3 wheel) could do
~65mph with 1Hp.
Another useful table lists 20 different bicycle configurations and gives
aerodynamic forces and rolling resistances at 20 mph.
Its useful for relative comparisons between different bike shapes and
configurations.
Now I have a fairly decent photo copy made back in 1984 (has my chicken scratch
on some of the drawings) that I can scan and
forward to you if you can't find it online. I tried to find it online one time
and had no luck. But as luck would have it the
"Free" bin at my local library had a load of Scientific American magazines they
were unloading. After years of searching for an
original copy, it had been dropped into my lap......and now I can't find what I
did with it in my house.
Overall though it has some really good info that you could apply to putting a
small electric motor in a bicycle.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of James Drysdale
> Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 12:49 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Cc: James Drysdale
> Subject: electric bicycle - need help
>
>
> SORRY!! THIS MESSAGE IS NOW TEXT.
> BAH! THOUGHT I SET THE LIST AS TEXT-ONLY.
> HOW EMBARRASSING.
>
>
> G'day all,
>
> Not an electric automobile, but an electric vehicle nonetheless.
> I'd like to create a hybrid muscle-electric bicycle.
>
> But I need some help.
> 1) Trying to work out how much *power* a specific 750W will actually
> give me.
>
> Power = (force * displacement) / time
> Force = mass * acceleration
> I am stuck, insufficient info and/or knowledge.
>
> 2) To move my fully-laden bicycle up to a speed of 80km/h
> (49.67miles/h), how powerful a motor will I need?
>
> Information I do have......
> mass = 120kg
> desired velocity = 22.2 m/s (80km/h or 49.67 miles/h)
>
> Where I am stuck is in the acceleration & force equations.
> I do not know how much acceleration and max forward velocity I can
> achieve with a 750W motor.
>
> This is the motor in question!!!
> https://www.electricscooterparts.com/ShoppingCart.asp?ProductCode=MOT-36750G
> >From this page.
> http://www.electricscooterparts.com/motors.html
> 36volt
> 750watt
> 2500rpm geared down to 420rpm
>
> I realise that there are other factors here that need addressing, like I
> said, I need help.
> Is it okay to disregard factors such as wind resistance for now?
> Wind resistance increases as the square of the velocity or something
> like that.....
>
>
> Cheers all,
> James Drysdale.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
With a PFC50 or one of those fancy Aerovironment (sp?) chargers down at LAX
that charge those luggage trucks in 18 minutes, 100 miles of range is fine.
I can't sit in any car for more than an hour or two anyway.
I'd pay 5K extra...for a UniMog camper set up like that hybrid HumVee UQM
made for the Army back in '93:^O
If someone could come up with a drop-in/bolt-on hybrid conversion for the GM
Tahoe/Suburban chassis, that would be a major coup for selling the idea of
electromotive technology to Joe Six-Pack. Faster off the line would be icing
on the cake after that whole increased mileage thing.
As a side note: I'm in traffic on a bicycle often. More and more, when the
light turns green, somewhere in the ICE cacophony around me, there will also
be the unmistakable "voosh" of an electric drive. I'm hearing lots of those
Lexus 400H and, of course, Prii.
Hearing electric drives in traffic on a regular basis serves as reassurance
that soon the ICE sounds will be gone...sweet.
--
MarvyMarv
aka
Mo'Nilla
"- Damer liker smarte menn. Og smarte menn kjører jo elbil,
understreker han." -Ladies like smart men and smart men drive electric
cars.
www.PlugInAmerica.com
> From: "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 21:56:57 +0000
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Would you build if you could buy?
>
> With the recent threads of people wanting to build their own hybrids I can't
> help but ask myself why? This is as I look out at my 2001 Honda Insight
> that I bought brand new and still love. I always wonder why these hybrid
> folks want to roll their own when they can just go out and buy one straight
> from the factory. I know the main reason is because they want to build a
> plug in hybrid. Still, I am doubtfull that they can come up with something
> anywhere close to as good as the hybrids that can't be plugged in but can be
> purchased at a dealers lot.
>
> It leads me to the question of what you would do if you could buy a factory
> EV. Let's say it was like the hybrids that you can buy now that come at a
> premium. I think the hybrid system on a Honda usually costs about $4000.
> It's hard to say exactly because they usually throw in a bunch of upscale
> options as well to kind of hide some of the cost, but let's go with that
> marketing model. If you could buy a factory built Civic, Accord, Camary,
> S10 truck etc... that was just like it's ICE counterpart, but you had to
> pay a premium for, what would you buy, and how much more would you be
> willing to pay? Would that be the end of EVs as conversions, or would the
> type of people that haunt this list rather continue to roll their own?
>
> I know for me, I would love to have a nice mid size sedan and would gladly
> pay up to a $10,000 premium, but only if it had 150 - 200 mile range.
> Although I certainly don't need this much range everyday, it is a reflection
> of some of the longer trips I would still want to be able to take. If it
> only had a 50 - 100 mile range that would make it more of a specialty car
> that I'm not sure I would be willing to pay any kind of premium for.
>
> damon
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--- Begin Message ---
OK, tried JW a few times via different avenues. I figure he's pretty busy
being famous as well as preparing for the upcoming
record breaking with Li batteries in the Zombie :-)
So here goes, I'll ask the list and thats sure to bring him out. Kinda like
dropping the right color pixie to a salmon.
Plasmaboy's website gives a commentary about going to a Series/Parallel set-up
that only makes use of single pole, normally open
contacts. This supposedly because the spring pressure on the normally closed
side of a dual pole contactor may not be enough to
prevent heat buildup when running obscene amounts of current. He also mentions
"Control Logic" for the reversing contactor that I
can't figure out if that is external to the Zilla Hairball, or if the Hairball
is sufficient to controll both the S/P and F/R
using only Normally Open contactor with single sets of contact tips.
Can anyone elaborate, or have a drawing of how the S/P and F/R would look using
only N.O. contacts? I'll admit that I haven't
used my noodle too much to see how it would go together. If by chance someone
already has a schematic I thought I'd ask.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All you have to do is use a N.C. aux switch on one SPST N.O. contactor to
drive a second N.O., and there you effectively add a set of N.C. to your
contactor.
Make sure there are adequate fail safes!
For drag use (short duration), you could always take a lower voltage
contactor coil, beef it up with a bigger spring for more N.C. contact
pressure, then hit it with more voltage than normal. That would make it
switch faster and thus handle more current. Another thing to think about is
to come up with a way so you can abandon the use of a freewheel diode on the
coil, as it slows the contactor release down.
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Willmon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 2:37 AM
Subject: Series/Parallel and Forward/Reverse contactors
OK, tried JW a few times via different avenues. I figure he's pretty busy
being famous as well as preparing for the upcoming
record breaking with Li batteries in the Zombie :-)
So here goes, I'll ask the list and thats sure to bring him out. Kinda
like dropping the right color pixie to a salmon.
Plasmaboy's website gives a commentary about going to a Series/Parallel
set-up that only makes use of single pole, normally open
contacts. This supposedly because the spring pressure on the normally
closed side of a dual pole contactor may not be enough to
prevent heat buildup when running obscene amounts of current. He also
mentions "Control Logic" for the reversing contactor that I
can't figure out if that is external to the Zilla Hairball, or if the
Hairball is sufficient to controll both the S/P and F/R
using only Normally Open contactor with single sets of contact tips.
Can anyone elaborate, or have a drawing of how the S/P and F/R would look
using only N.O. contacts? I'll admit that I haven't
used my noodle too much to see how it would go together. If by chance
someone already has a schematic I thought I'd ask.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
TECs are not very efficient. Rugged yes, but if you are trying to save
energy, stay far away!
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Pikkula" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: Google presses for 100 MPG vehicle
When the interior of the car (or even frequently ambient here in
Houston) temp is greater than body temp, and you use a fan, one will
actually heat one's self at a faster rate.
And of course, dress the the weather. Don't try to keep your car in the
60's when it's >100+ deg.F outside. Use fans or "swamp coolers" to do
more of the work.
A swamp cooler will not work in Houston when the humidity is greater
than 75% which is more than 75% of the time. For a swamp cooler to
work it needs lower humidity for evaporative cooling.
Do you really want to use an inefficient automotive belt-driven A/C
system,
I could easily switch to a thermoelectric cooler (TEC). I used these
in graduate school for infrared radiometric temperature calibration.
Very robust and solid state. Here's one I might be toying with when
my compressor fails. http://www.melcor.com/ssair.html
Has anyone used TECs for A/C in EVs?
I don't mean to be argumentative about A/C issue. Spend a summer in
Houston without A/C in your car: you end up not wanting to leave the
house. I know energy isn't free and I'm willing to sacrifice some
range for not smelling like a gym locker room when I get to work.
I also don't mean to rip Houston either. The pay is at par with the
rest of the country and living expenses are a fraction of what they
are on the coasts. You just have to put up with five months of
oppressive heat. The other 7 months are great.
Brian
On 6/21/07, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[snip]
And of course, dress the the weather. Don't try to keep your car in the
60's when it's >100+ deg.F outside. Use fans or "swamp coolers" to do
more of the work.
[snip]
Like A/C, if you start out assuming it is a necessity, then you
unconsciously warp the >whole design to *make* it a necessity.
--
"Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
doing it." -- Chinese proverb
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A modern PWM controller can turn more voltage into more motor amps.
Think of the controller almost like a variable transformer.....
Say you need 10kw to climb a particular hill. With a 100v pack, that's 100
battery amps. With a 200v pack, it's only 50 battery amps!
(provided your setup can handle 200v without a total re-engineer)
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Markus Lorch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: Improving hillclimbing without mudering the pack?
Hi Jeff,
thanks for the reply. I wonder if a higher voltage will lead to higher
amps and thus higher torque. It is my understanding that a series wound
motor will not run faster due to higher voltage as the field strength
increases as well. Am I wrong?
OTOH, if I would add a controller like the Zilla, would that help me keep
the battery amps down if I have higher voltage but not deliver it to the
motor as e.g. I would be running at only 50% duty cycle instead of 80%
duty cycle.
Markus
Jeff Shanab schrieb:
Sounds like you are on the right track. The only way to get more power
out of a given motor at a fixed amp is to spin it faster and let the
gears translate that added rpm into added torque. The only way to spin a
given motor faster is to raise the voltage.
I believe you have two other options
1) get a second motor and do the series parallel switch. This is
like an electric transmission. Double the torque at half the max RPM,
but that may make a particular gear possible. But only if the motor is
the limit.
2) I think Lee mentioned once on this list how to use a curtis on a
higher system voltage thru a retactor circuit. I'd say check the
archives, But I couldn't find it. Going to a higher system voltage and
keeping the controller this way and using the lower gear sounds like a
good idea.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can anyone give me a synopsis of the current thinking on NiMH packs?
What I have gathered from reading the list for a while now (are these
true statements?):
1. Charging or discharging multiple cells in parallel is generally a
bad idea.
2. Charging or discharging long strings quickly gets cells out of
balance.
3. Finishing voltage is not a good indicator of charge complete.
4. Watching for -dv/dt turn is better indicator
5. Monitoring for cell temp rise can also be a good indicator of
charge complete
6. Previous cycle charge/discharge info is best indicator.
So, lets say I want to build a ~200V/40Ah pack out of 4 strings of
10Ah cells (not full EV size I realize)
For charging I was considering borrowing ideas from the EV AGM guys
and the RC NiMH guys. I really like the AGM balance idea of just
running multiple small independant isolated chargers to make sure
each battery is balanced. This gets tricky here though, as we have
potentially ~667 cells. The RC guys seem to pretty routinely fast
charge 7.2-9.6V strings with good results. There are 5A "smart" -dv/
dt based chargers available in the $40-$50 price range, which should
charge a 10Ah 7.2V ministring in ~2 hrs. Since in the this case we'd
still have 112 of these ministrings, the last component would be a
relay switch matrix and a controller. The simplest implementation
would probably be to have one charger per ministring in the string,
in this case 28. Then each charger would be responsible for charging
4 ministrings (one from each string) which should complete
overnight. Ideally thermal sensors would be used to monitor for
problems, but this could add alot of complexity. Maybe some simple
bimetal switches, simple thermistor/comparator circuits to provide
digital feedback rather than analog. Otherwise some sort of big
analog mux matrix would probably be needed due to the large number of
analog inputs you'd have to deal with. This is not cheap, we're
probably talking $1100 for chargers (maybe can find a volume discount
somewhere, or look at chinese rather than german chargers) plus
needing something to control it all (I'm thinking an old laptop and
DIO box?) and a big bunch of relays. On the other hand, what other
options are there in this price range?
For discharging, I'm less sure. Can you parallel the big strings
during discharge? Maybe if you use the above temp sensors and drop
strings if there is any signs of cells heating up? Otherwise I was
thinking of monitoring string voltage and switching through the
strings sequentially as each starts to roll off from its flat part of
the curve. I think I need some help here LOL!
Any thoughts or comments much appreciated,
Rob
Phoenix, AZ
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, I assume you are aware that such a bicycle won't be legal on the roads?
Now that we have that niggling detail out of the way. Bicycles have
pretty bad aerodynamics (compared to other vehicles).
Not much of an issue at 20-30kph, but significant at 80 kph.
750W will be good up to perhaps 50-60kph on flat level ground with no
wind. Of course getting to this speed will take a while, though
acceleration from 0-25kph should be quite brisk.
Note most human beings can put out almost 750W for a very breif time (less
than a minute?)
The average human can put out about 100 watts for an hour or so, a very
fit person can produce 200-250 watts for an hour or so.
It takes roughly 200 watts to go 30 kph on flat ground with no wind.
Aerodynamic Drag goes up as the cube of your speed.
Getting up to 80kph will require at least twice and probably three times
as much. Figure at least 2,000 watts.
> G'day all,
>
> Not an electric automobile, but an electric vehicle nonetheless.
> I'd like to create a hybrid muscle-electric bicycle.
>
> But I need some help.
> 1) Trying to work out how much *power* a specific 750W will actually
> give me.
>
> Power = (force * displacement) / time
> Force = mass * acceleration
> I am stuck, insufficient info and/or knowledge.
>
> 2) To move my fully-laden bicycle up to a speed of 80km/h
> (49.67miles/h), how powerful a motor will I need?
>
> Information I do have......
> mass = 120kg
> desired velocity = 22.2 m/s (80km/h or 49.67 miles/h)
>
> Where I am stuck is in the acceleration & force equations.
> I do not know how much acceleration and max forward velocity I can
> achieve with a 750W motor.
>
> This is the motor in question!!!
> https://www.electricscooterparts.com/ShoppingCart.asp?ProductCode=MOT-36750G
>>From this page.
> http://www.electricscooterparts.com/motors.html
> 36volt
> 750watt
> 2500rpm geared down to 420rpm
>
> I realise that there are other factors here that need addressing, like I
> said, I need help.
> Is it okay to disregard factors such as wind resistance for now?
> Wind resistance increases as the square of the velocity or something
> like that.....
>
>
> Cheers all,
> James Drysdale.
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
