EV Digest 2870
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) AC controller, anyone?
by "The Levine Family" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: New Optima?
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Charging at campgrounds
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Charging at campgrounds
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: What 156V controllers are available?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Charging at campgrounds
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Newbie question: waterproofing EVs?
by "Brian Hay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Charging at campgrounds
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Kit 3-wheel EVs - WAS:EVLN(Bus Rapid Transit says electric rail is dirty)
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: vapor : Li-ion car on eBay: real or vapor?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EVLN(Bus Rapid Transit says electric rail is dirty)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: EVLN(Bus Rapid Transit says electric rail is dirty)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Newbie question: waterproofing EVs?
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Newbie question: waterproofing EVs?
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Newbie question: waterproofing EVs?
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: BBC News
by Brad Waddell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: EVLN(Bus Rapid Transit says electric rail is dirty)
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: What 156V controllers are available?
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) was S-10 conversion advise/batterie trailer
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Starting torque
by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Li-ion car on eBay: real or vapor?
by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: hybrid??
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: EVLN(Bus Rapid Transit says electric rail is dirty)
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: EVLN(Bus Rapid Transit says electric rail is dirty)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) DC controler questions.
by "Brian Geary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Starting torque
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) RE: micro-ice
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: EVLN(Bus Rapid Transit says electric rail is dirty)
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: DC controler questions.
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
While looking for info on my REVI's controller, I visited Sevcon and found
this:
http://www.sevcon.com/Pages/powerpac.html
With outputs as high as 600A from an 80V pack in a ~10"x8"x4" package,
wouldn't this be good for a small EV? Has anyone used one for a street EV?
Wonder if EVParts has tested them...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Christopher Robison wrote:
> Hmm.. Although they claim that this battery is "now available" it apparently
> hasn't been added to the Optima website -- so I've seen no pictures of it yet.
> But by the dimensions (and my shaky memory) this seems similar to the
> [prototype?] "Baby Optima" that Wayland has in his White Zombie.
The famous 'Baby Optima' is considerably smaller than you are are recalling. The
approximate dimensions are 6.25 inches long (more than 3 inches shorter than the 'new
Optima'), just 4.5 inches wide, and only 6 inches tall, not including the height of
it's
top terminals (both stainless steel threaded and full sized automotive posts). It
weighs
about 11 lbs. and is about 15 ahrs in capacity. Rudman tortured one of these (shame,
shame, Madman) and found it's weak spot to be the cell inter-straps which fuse open at
anything above 300 amps for more than 10 seconds or so. That aside, these were way cool
little batteries... cool looking... cool sized...cool long service life. The one in
White
Zombie is still going strong after 6 years now. It can still easily power up all the
contactors (there's quite a few of these) and at the same time, run the car's lighting
system for more than a half hour continuously, and at the end, still be at around
11.5V.
Last summer, I accidentally left the Zombie's 12V circuits on for weeks and totally
drained the rare battery down to zero volts....it was very traumatic for me! Somehow, I
was able to nurse it back without any cell reversals, and it bounced back to full
capacity
again. It's been almost a year since that happened, and the battery is doing very well
today, with a resting voltage of around 12.8 volts...amazing!
I have other Baby YTs that are also in great shape after 6 years.
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No problem. The PFC-20 and PFC-50 were originally designed to do boost duty.
The buck function was added later to work with lower voltage packs. They
typically go slightly above 400 volts in default configuration.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 2:11 PM
Subject: RE: Charging at campgrounds
> And
> Rich, can a PFC take 120 volts AC at 30 amps and boost it to, say, 340
volts
> DC?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Your terms are a little different than in our group.
Usually, the "tow rig" has a big hitch for pulling a trailer.
A "dingy" is the little car being towed behind a big rig.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce EVangel Parmenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 6:38 PM
Subject: RE: Charging at campgrounds
> -If people stop by and ask, tell them this is your
> 'tow vehicle' for getting around (that's a term used
> for the car RV's tow behind them). If they want to
> know where the RV is, tell them it will be back, its
> getting a tune up, or its being 'gassed-up' (that
> usually shuts them up, if not, show the receipt that
> you have paid for the spot).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The 156 volt ceiling is because 200 Volt MOSFETs outperform 600 Volt IGBTs
at low voltages.
If someone uses IGBTs, they typically rate the controller for 400 Volt
operation.
The 200 Volt limit is based on:
if the charged voltage of the battery pack plus the overshoot in the
controller exceeds the 200 Volt rating of the MOSFETs, the MOSFETs will
overheat and can die very quickly (a few milliseconds). A good power stage
design will allow operation closer to the voltage limit without warrantee
problems for the manufacturer.
This 156 to 200 volt threshold is blurring because of some of the new
silicon power devices being released recently. I have not seen anyone
exploiting the new parts yet.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 7:21 AM
Subject: RE: What 156V controllers are available?
> For those who might be mystified as to why 156V is a typical cutoff
> point for controllers, I believe it's because that nominal voltage can
> go to something just under 200V during charging. 200V is a typical
> ceiling for power silicon. Experts, please correct me if I'm wrong.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A fat fingered typo. Should have been
towed vehicle
not the vehicle that does the towing.
When I first got in RVs, I learned the lingo.
But at these parks, they do not use the term
dingy except as a term for idiot drivers.
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can the electronics in EVs be waterproofed? I'm specifically curious about
say something like the RAV4 EV as vehicles like this would be expected to be
able to traverse shallow streams etc. If they can be waterproofed does this
affect the cooling of motors etc?
Regards,
Brian Hay.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> A "dingy" is the little car being towed behind a big rig.
Or sometimes called a Toad (as in towed).
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bruce EVangel Parmenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 6:38 PM
> Subject: RE: Charging at campgrounds
>
>
> > -If people stop by and ask, tell them this is your
> > 'tow vehicle' for getting around (that's a term used
> > for the car RV's tow behind them). If they want to
> > know where the RV is, tell them it will be back, its
> > getting a tune up, or its being 'gassed-up' (that
> > usually shuts them up, if not, show the receipt that
> > you have paid for the spot).
>
--
EVDL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A vehicle I think is more practical is the Ecomobile. An enclosed
motorcycle. I'd rather have one of those as an electric than a Sparrow.
Lawrence Rhodes....
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Uzi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 1:20 PM
Subject: Kit 3-wheel EVs - WAS:EVLN(Bus Rapid Transit says electric rail is
dirty)
> > Still, I always thought Corbin made a mistake in making the Sparrow a
one-
> > passenger vehicle. That made it ideal for the HOV lanes in California,
but
> > what about the rest of the country? What do you do when you want to go
to
> > lunch with a co-worker, or out to dinner with your partner at home?
There's
> > no room to have stuff sitting on the seat beside you, no way to show the
car
> > off for your friends (other than handing them the keys). And unlike a
> > "real" motorcycle there's no tandem ability.
>
> there is yet-another-Swiss 3-wheel EV called the SAM, which has in-line
> tandem seats... seemed a more rational design than the Sparrow; a
t-frame, with
> motors on the crossbar in front and the electronics and battery pack
inside the
> beam running down the length; seats straddle the beam ...of course, we'll
almost
> certainly never see it available here in the USA
>
> what are the rules concerning kit cars? can kit-built vehicles ever be
> street-legal? presumably the regulations are state-specific
>
> if feasible, perhaps the way to commercialize small EVs is to sell them as
> assemble-it-yourself kits that can be packed up in a relatively small
crate or
> two...
>
> should be possible to make the assembly process simple enough for the
average
> joe to put together without too much hair-pulling... make sure the design
is
> modular enough that more advanced DIYers can make mods and upgrades, etc,
too
>
> no worries about finding a retail showroom; just the thrill of waiting
> for the truck to arrive and drop the crate in the driveway!
>
> I could easily imagine people holding slap-it-together workshops and
forming
> clubs, etc... the EV's answer to the "Model-T"
>
> ideally, the chargers and controller would be programmable so that the
same
> units could accomidate different battery configs and motor choices, etc...
> perhaps even with a built-in flash-card reader to make U/Ling programming
for
> new configurations simple? ...yeah, I'm dreaming, but it's not THAT
> unreasonable an idea...
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Might it be wise to alert Ebay about this scam? Lawrence Rhodes.......
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce EVangel Parmenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 7:04 PM
Subject: vapor : Li-ion car on eBay: real or vapor?
> The response I got back was not much better than Larry's
> but it was different:
>
> -
> Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 06:29:23 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Jon Chance <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> Our team has been building EVs and other vehicles for
> many years. All further information is proprietary.
> We are not seeking more publicity or buyers, but
> thanks for the offer.
>
> Best Regards,
> Jon
> -
>
> IMHO: Translation:
> We know what we are doing,
> we don't have to prove a thing,
> and we do not need any help.
> Now go away unless you want to give us $92,000.
>
> They are a very odd, and very unfriendly group
> of people. They obivously do not know there is
> a huge EV community, and do not think they need
> to held accountable.
>
> I think it is safe to say, this listing is a scam,
> and people should be warned off.
> Its just too slimey to be real, ie:
> http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Barnum+%22fool+born+every+minute%22
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> =====
> ' ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> . EV List Editor & RE newswires
> . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> =====
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> http://sbc.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chuck Hursch wrote:
> For people living in an apt, it is nearly impossible to own an
> EV, by virtue of the fact that many apt managers make it nearly
> impossible to set up charging.
Balderdash!
I've lived in apartments, and still drove EVs. Outdoor outlets are very
common. If there isn't one close enough, they are inexpensive enough to
add. All we're talking about is a perfectly ordinary AC receptacle.
In any part of the country where you get snow, outdoor outlets are
already installed at many apartments. They are there so people can plug
in their car's block heater so it will start on cold winter mornings.
I've never seen an apartment that even charged for them.
Apartment managers are human beings. If you approach them right, they
will let you charge. Usually, this just means making sure it won't cost
them money.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Ohio has one of the weirdest laws I've seen concerning three wheelers.
> They can have two back wheels and one front wheel and be considered a
> bike or motorcycle (depending on whether or not they have an engine),
> but the law is very specific...only ONE front wheel. Trikes with two
> front wheels are specifically excluded from the definition.
Then why not do what the BMW Isetta or Goggomobile did; it was a tiny
3-wheeled car built in the 1950's. Most of them had "dualies" in the
rear, so it actually had 4 wheels. I know these cars were licensed and
driven in Ohio.
Could you mount two skinny tires in back of a Sparrow to make it satisfy
Ohio's law?
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, first of all, shallow streams are no problem even in the most
un-waterproofed EVs. A few splashes won't hurt the motor, and if properly
mounted the controller and potbox should be out of the splash stream.
But any factory EV, like the RAV4, almost certainly has a commercially
designed waterproof motor and controller. The Siemens drive in my Accord,
for example, is waterproof to the point that I suspect it would survive
immersion. It uses water cooling to deal with the problem of getting water
away from the drive and controller.
S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Hay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 10:06 PM
Subject: Newbie question: waterproofing EVs?
> Can the electronics in EVs be waterproofed? I'm specifically curious about
> say something like the RAV4 EV as vehicles like this would be expected to
be
> able to traverse shallow streams etc. If they can be waterproofed does
this
> affect the cooling of motors etc?
>
>
> Regards,
> Brian Hay.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I should mention, for the newbies, that my EV is not a factory model - it's
just that I used a controller and motor that were designed for EV use.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon "Sheer" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 11:49 PM
Subject: Re: Newbie question: waterproofing EVs?
> Well, first of all, shallow streams are no problem even in the most
> un-waterproofed EVs. A few splashes won't hurt the motor, and if properly
> mounted the controller and potbox should be out of the splash stream.
>
> But any factory EV, like the RAV4, almost certainly has a commercially
> designed waterproof motor and controller. The Siemens drive in my Accord,
> for example, is waterproof to the point that I suspect it would survive
> immersion. It uses water cooling to deal with the problem of getting water
> away from the drive and controller.
>
> S.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brian Hay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 10:06 PM
> Subject: Newbie question: waterproofing EVs?
>
>
> > Can the electronics in EVs be waterproofed? I'm specifically curious
about
> > say something like the RAV4 EV as vehicles like this would be expected
to
> be
> > able to traverse shallow streams etc. If they can be waterproofed does
> this
> > affect the cooling of motors etc?
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> > Brian Hay.
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don't forget that the RAV4EV is really a RAV2 - only the front wheels are driven in
the EV version.
So I'd be just a little cautious about taking it too far from civilisation.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Jon "Sheer" Pullen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, 21 June 2003 4:50 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Newbie question: waterproofing EVs?
Well, first of all, shallow streams are no problem even in the most
un-waterproofed EVs. A few splashes won't hurt the motor, and if properly
mounted the controller and potbox should be out of the splash stream.
But any factory EV, like the RAV4, almost certainly has a commercially
designed waterproof motor and controller. The Siemens drive in my Accord,
for example, is waterproof to the point that I suspect it would survive
immersion. It uses water cooling to deal with the problem of getting water
away from the drive and controller.
S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Hay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 10:06 PM
Subject: Newbie question: waterproofing EVs?
> Can the electronics in EVs be waterproofed? I'm specifically curious about
> say something like the RAV4 EV as vehicles like this would be expected to
be
> able to traverse shallow streams etc. If they can be waterproofed does
this
> affect the cooling of motors etc?
>
>
> Regards,
> Brian Hay.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Correct, REVA has said they will import as an NEV. A shame really, a very
nice car.
brad
At 09:33 AM 06/19/2003 -0700, you wrote:
This is the REVA, from India.
Might be able to do 40mph / 66kmph in India and the UK, but will most likely
be limited to 25mph / 40kmph if imported into the USA. Really doubt if the
manufacturer would be willing to spend the time/money/pain of going through
the DOT acceptance process, and adding airbags, etc to meet the normal USA
requirements. Instead, if they bring it in, we will get another nEV.
-Ed Thorpe
Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax: 602-532-7019
Postal: 6965 El Camino Real Ste 105 #488 Carlsbad CA 92009 USA
QODBC Driver for Quickbooks - Unleash your data at www.qodbc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 2003-06-21 at 01:22, Lee Hart wrote:
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> > Ohio has one of the weirdest laws I've seen concerning three wheelers.
> > They can have two back wheels and one front wheel and be considered a
> > bike or motorcycle (depending on whether or not they have an engine),
> > but the law is very specific...only ONE front wheel. Trikes with two
> > front wheels are specifically excluded from the definition.
>
> Then why not do what the BMW Isetta or Goggomobile did; it was a tiny
> 3-wheeled car built in the 1950's. Most of them had "dualies" in the
> rear, so it actually had 4 wheels. I know these cars were licensed and
> driven in Ohio.
>
> Could you mount two skinny tires in back of a Sparrow to make it satisfy
> Ohio's law?
Ah, but then it would be a car and would have to meet all of the safety
requirements of a car. The reason they made the sparrow a motorcycle
was to avoid having to meet those safety requirements.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joe-
When you talk about the new power silicon devices, what are you
referring to? Decent 500V rated 'FETs or low VCEsat IGBTs or something else?
Seth
Joe Smalley wrote:
>
> The 156 volt ceiling is because 200 Volt MOSFETs outperform 600 Volt IGBTs
> at low voltages.
>
> If someone uses IGBTs, they typically rate the controller for 400 Volt
> operation.
>
> The 200 Volt limit is based on:
> if the charged voltage of the battery pack plus the overshoot in the
> controller exceeds the 200 Volt rating of the MOSFETs, the MOSFETs will
> overheat and can die very quickly (a few milliseconds). A good power stage
> design will allow operation closer to the voltage limit without warrantee
> problems for the manufacturer.
>
> This 156 to 200 volt threshold is blurring because of some of the new
> silicon power devices being released recently. I have not seen anyone
> exploiting the new parts yet.
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 7:21 AM
> Subject: RE: What 156V controllers are available?
>
> > For those who might be mystified as to why 156V is a typical cutoff
> > point for controllers, I believe it's because that nominal voltage can
> > go to something just under 200V during charging. 200V is a typical
> > ceiling for power silicon. Experts, please correct me if I'm wrong.
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David wrote:
Caveat: AC motors tend to have this nice constant power region, but I
don't think that extends to series DC.
Victor wrote:
I'll let DC experts to comment on this. I think it does, but
the torque seem to fall quicker as RPM increases.
DC machines have their own quirks. The controller will determine if
they have a constant power region.
For a Curtis controller there is no constant power region. Its
constant torque (motor amps) up to the point the controller comes out
of current limit. Above that the amps fall off faster than the rpm
increases so power is falling. The reason is the current limit is a
motor current limit (and being a buck controller the battery current
will never exceed motor current).
For one of Otmar's controllers, well... you can choose. If it has
been set for, lets say, 500 battery amps peak and 1000 motor amps
peak then there will be a constant power region. If the system
voltage, for this example, is 120 volts then the constant power
region would be from 60 volts at 1000 amps motor side (500 amps at
120v battery side) until the point where the controller comes out of
current limit (FETs full on, 500 amps at 120 volts motor and
battery). Above that point, once again, the motor amps will fall
faster than the rpm increases and power is declining.
To look for a constant power region just look for an rpm *range*
where an EV system can pull a constant battery amps. If you don't
have one you don't have a constant power range - after all, the power
comes from the batteries :-)
Neon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
2138 lbs is a little heavy for a kit car. You could do 1500 with a VW based
glider and weigh that with the batteries installed..Lawrence Rhodes....
Your a bit optimistic with 1500lbs. My EV Buggy is not much of a kit
body on a shortened VW frame with 10 light Optimas; it weighs 1420lbs.
Neon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I remember when they took the lead out of the gas and car comps said it
would rune all engine's . To me it seem easy , tax the gas to pay for all
the expense's (war ,home land security, environmental damage ,ect) . Of
course we could just raise the price of school lunches and pay for it that
way. Maybe cut out some more classes . When I hear somebody complaining
about gas prices and I come back with " I'd like to see them tax it to pay
for the war, and all the damage that it's done and doing , I think $5 a
gallon would be about right " the look on there face's is priceless.
What I am really worried about is when the price start claming fast what
happens the economy .
I one hour the people on the Titanic went form 99% thinking there was no
need for life boats to 100% thinking there was .
Steve Clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 1:25 PM
Subject: Re: hybrid??
> It takes a government with balls to mandate what's right for all.
> Not debate, not vote, just mandate whether joe average likes it
> or not. Sometimes it's necessary and doesn't mean totalitarian gov't.
> Like taxes - no one likes them but try to vote out govt. which
> keeps taxing people. Every gov't will and makes it a law, vote
> or no vote.
>
> If you tell me things don't work that way, OK, waiting for
> catastrophe (what we're doing now) is another option.
> Take your pick.
>
> As Nike said, just do it. Yet, opposite side of freedom country -
> you're free to debate to death and free to do nothing.
>
> Someone will pay for it later. Joe Average won't do anything unless
> not doing affects HIS pocket and convenience TODAY. Not even
> his children tomorrow. HIS, TODAY. Unfortunate but so obvious,
> why people afraid to admit it? Too true?
>
> Victor
>
>
>
> Ryan Fulcher wrote:
> >
> > We'll probably have to wait for a catastrophe, unfortunently, I expect
> > to experience one within the next 10 years.
> >
> > The "Bright" side of globle warming and less ozone is:
> > More UV radiation reaching the surface, so my PV panels should
> > output more ane more energy, no? Funny, yet I'm not laughing.
> >
> > L8r
> > Ryan
> >
> > Mark Thomasson wrote:
> >
> > > I support spirit of your arguments, but if we want to build a credible
> > > financial case for sustainable energy and transportation, we must
consider
> > > the time value of money. Your two cases below are identical at 4%
cost of
> > > capital. At 10% cost of capital, the present worth of the BEV case is
twice
> > > as expensive as the ICE case. The financial analysis just doesn't
give us a
> > > slam-dunk. But how can we convince people of the value of the
environmental
> > > and energy independence arguments, when many people are apparently
still
> > > waiting for scientific proof that seatbelts save lives and that
tobacco
> > > cause cancer? Perhaps the EV movement needs an MLK or JFK type person
to
> > > energize the masses on these issues? Or will a global catastrophe be
> > > necessary to turn things around? Mark T.
> > >
> > >>Here's how I see it, Spend $100,000 on a big PV or Wind setup.
> > >>Spend $20,000 for an EV. Spend $1000 every 2 years for new batteries.
> > >>Over my 100 year lifespan that's $170,000, then my children will spend
> > >>$50,000 for their entire lifetime. Plus I can probably heat my house,
> > >>keep my food cold, light my patio all for nothing.
> > >>
> > >>Or, I could buy a $20,000 ICE car each 10 years.
> > >>Put fuel/oil into them at 52 weeks, 500miles/weeks, 20mpg,
$2/gal=$2600
> > >>each year for fuel. and about 52,000lbs of smog. (at $5/gal = $6500)
> > >>That's $460,000 over the course of my lifetime, and nothing to show
> > >>for it in the end, except for the 5,200,000lbs of pollution and some
> > >>130,000 gallons of for ever used up fossil fuel.
> > >>
> > >>BEV = <200K and 50K for each generation after, no pollution
> > >>ICE = >500K, nothing for kids but 5 million lbs of crap in the air.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Chuck
Sound like you've gone that extra mile to make it work , 9 years not bad .
that's walking the walk.
>
> For people living in an apt, it is nearly impossible to own an
> EV, by virtue of the fact that many apt managers make it nearly
> impossible to set up charging. If you can get charging at work,
> that may help, but then you still wouldn't be able to charge over
> the weekends. It would seem natural that apts, with their high
> population concentration, and people frequently living close to
> work, would be a natural for having a high percentage of cars as
> EVs. I am the only EV owner in this apt complex of say a
> thousand or two thousand people. There are a few Prii lurking
> around. (I can always think to myself that I own the cleanest,
> most efficient vehicle here.) I had a difficult time getting
> permission for charging, but some six months after the initial
> application, one brand-new pack run into the ground, and after
> spending $500 for the installation, I had my charging outlet (had
> to satisfy two requirements: wiring totally enclosed, and a
> lockable box => the outlet is on the carport ceiling => I have to
> run upstairs to get my stool chair to plug 'er in => no, this is
> not really easier than gassing your ICE car). Interesting that
> over at the security bldg they have open NEMA 5-15 outlets low on
> the walls in the garages (don't know if they are powered up, but
> they probably are).
>
> I acquired/was-offered the family Toyota 4-Runner from Colorado
> in 1998 for my long-range vehicle (I previously rented -
> entailing a multi-hour round-trip bus ride to go get/return a
> rental) - a vehicle that was in quite good shape. While parking
> was quite tight around here then (not so tight now as the vacancy
> rate is up), I probably could've more or less taken over a slot
> and used a car-cover. However, my worries about other hassles
> such as vandalism or car-door dings meant the 4-Runner is housed
> in a storage container over in San Rafael - $135/month.
>
> Sometimes I wonder: the security people seem to hang around my
> carport in their noisy trucks a lot longer when my EV is plugged
> in. This has started occurring within the last couple of months.
> It makes me wonder in-a-way if a big hassle is coming up. Nobody
> has bothered me about it in nearly 9 years of charging, so that
> is record enough - never a problem. But I will be glad to have
> my own place sometime, and give the you-know-what to a population
> that never seems to be able to deal with its population and
> energy issues - it should be very evident to most...
>
> Chuck Hursch
> Larkspur, CA
> NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
> www.geocities.com/nbeaa
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
> www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
> On Sat, 2003-06-21 at 01:22, Lee Hart wrote:
> > Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> > > Ohio has one of the weirdest laws I've seen concerning three wheelers.
> > > They can have two back wheels and one front wheel and be considered a
> > > bike or motorcycle (depending on whether or not they have an engine),
> > > but the law is very specific...only ONE front wheel. Trikes with two
> > > front wheels are specifically excluded from the definition.
> >
> > Then why not do what the BMW Isetta or Goggomobile did; it was a tiny
> > 3-wheeled car built in the 1950's. Most of them had "dualies" in the
> > rear, so it actually had 4 wheels. I know these cars were licensed and
> > driven in Ohio.
> >
> > Could you mount two skinny tires in back of a Sparrow to make it satisfy
> > Ohio's law?
>
> Ah, but then it would be a car and would have to meet all of the safety
> requirements of a car. The reason they made the sparrow a motorcycle
> was to avoid having to meet those safety requirements.
Well, then take it all apart, put it all together, and license it as a
kit car! :-)
I've licensed some pretty odd vehicles. A friendly smile and a
sympathetic inspector can get almost anything licensed.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
hi im new to the list, looks like a grate place with grate people.
hopefully i can contribute to that.
anyway here is my question,
im going to build an ev i want to use a DC motor and controler, but i
also want regen. now ive been looking and zapi seams to make one that
has regen and is DC, is this a good controler. here is the specks on the
controler
Zapi H2, 120 VDC, 600 amp, w/regen contactors,
im going to run 120VDC out of 20 6 volt 200 amp hour batteries. im also
thinking of running a Kostov motor.(i hope i spelled that right.) anyway
thanks any help would be grate.
oh yea here are the battiery specks
Specifications:
Weight: 68 pounds
Dimensions: 10 1/4" long by 7 1/8" wide by 10 7/8" tall
200 amp hours at the C20 rate
110 amp hours at the 3 hour rate
84.3 amp hours at the 1 hour rate
thanks brian
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for a good explanation. Another way to get a constant power
region with DC is sepex. Unfortunately, sepex is not an off-the-shelf
option for now.
--- Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> David wrote:
> >> Caveat: AC motors tend to have this nice constant power region,
> but I
> >> don't think that extends to series DC.
>
> Victor wrote:
> >I'll let DC experts to comment on this. I think it does, but
> >the torque seem to fall quicker as RPM increases.
>
> DC machines have their own quirks. The controller will determine if
>
> they have a constant power region.
>
> For a Curtis controller there is no constant power region. Its
> constant torque (motor amps) up to the point the controller comes
> out
> of current limit. Above that the amps fall off faster than the rpm
> increases so power is falling. The reason is the current limit is a
>
> motor current limit (and being a buck controller the battery
> current
> will never exceed motor current).
>
> For one of Otmar's controllers, well... you can choose. If it has
> been set for, lets say, 500 battery amps peak and 1000 motor amps
> peak then there will be a constant power region. If the system
> voltage, for this example, is 120 volts then the constant power
> region would be from 60 volts at 1000 amps motor side (500 amps at
> 120v battery side) until the point where the controller comes out
> of
> current limit (FETs full on, 500 amps at 120 volts motor and
> battery). Above that point, once again, the motor amps will fall
> faster than the rpm increases and power is declining.
>
> To look for a constant power region just look for an rpm *range*
> where an EV system can pull a constant battery amps. If you don't
> have one you don't have a constant power range - after all, the
> power
> comes from the batteries :-)
>
> Neon
>
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 20 Jun 2003 at 16:24, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> And at only about 350 built over 3 years, the
> company was still losing money on each vehicle.
Is that before or after the costs of all the recalls and retrofits? Just
curious.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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--- Begin Message ---
On 21 Jun 2003 at 5:58, Peter VanDerWal wrote (in reply to Lee Hart):
> > Could you mount two skinny tires in back of a Sparrow to make it satisfy
> > Ohio's law?
>
> Ah, but then it would be a car and would have to meet all of the safety
> requirements of a car.
I know! Paint a windshield on the back and license it backwards! <g>
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
DC Regen is nice for slowing you down but typically doesn't add much
range (normally between zero and 10%). To do it right you need a motor
with interpoles (Like the big Kostov). Without interpoles you need to
adjust the motor for neutral timing which means it doesn't run at
optimum in either normal or regen mode. The motor doesn't run as
efficiently and you run the risk of fireballing it. They also tend to
heat up quite a bit if you run regen for extensive periods of time.
So if you go with Regen, get the Kostov or another motor with interpoles
if you can find one. I think Warp makes one, but I'm not sure.
I have no direct experience with Zapi but I've only ever heard about
problems regen controllers:
http://www.jerryrig.com/convert/step38.html
However this might only apply to their H3 controllers. You'd probably
want to research this a bit.
On Sat, 2003-06-21 at 10:12, Brian Geary wrote:
> hi im new to the list, looks like a grate place with grate people.
> hopefully i can contribute to that.
>
> anyway here is my question,
>
> im going to build an ev i want to use a DC motor and controler, but i
> also want regen. now ive been looking and zapi seams to make one that
> has regen and is DC, is this a good controler. here is the specks on the
> controler
>
> Zapi H2, 120 VDC, 600 amp, w/regen contactors,
>
> im going to run 120VDC out of 20 6 volt 200 amp hour batteries. im also
> thinking of running a Kostov motor.(i hope i spelled that right.) anyway
> thanks any help would be grate.
>
> oh yea here are the battiery specks
>
> Specifications:
>
> Weight: 68 pounds
> Dimensions: 10 1/4" long by 7 1/8" wide by 10 7/8" tall
> 200 amp hours at the C20 rate
> 110 amp hours at the 3 hour rate
> 84.3 amp hours at the 1 hour rate
>
> thanks brian
>
--
EVDL
--- End Message ---
