EV Digest 6890
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: EV achilles' heel
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: New Subscriber
by jukka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: EV's can be difficult to quantify
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) RE: Towing an EV
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Wheelchair stability (was Toyota makes an EV)
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: High voltage? was Anyone heard of these Li-Ion batteries - or using
them?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Re: EV achilles' heel - Trailer thoughts
by jukka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: New Zillch Controller
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) OJ2 dragster at 2 strips in one day - Makes one run
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Re: New Zillch Controller
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: How the Prius Works
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: High voltage? was Anyone heard of these Li-Ion batteries - or
using them?
by Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: New Subscriber
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Over-volted ADC: Warranty issue
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Zilla 2k 300v Anyone?
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: lion testing
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Dan,
It depends on the situation people are in:
some have never a need to go more than a few miles, so
the EV is their only car and does not need range extension.
Some have an occasional need and know that renting a car
will be the most efficient way for their transportation
need and they do not need to bother with an unused ICE car
during the time in between.
Many others have more than one car, so before each trip
they think for half a second which car is appropriate.
Very few people use range extension.
Most times it is a total disappointment, a kludge that
takes away from the simple and clean EV idea.
In addition, even thinking about making a genset or
something comparable get good emissions is a royal pain.
There is very little point if you are interested in saving
the environment to have an EV that needs its genset a small
percentage of the time but spews out many times more crud,
defeating the whole purpose.
I did not even address reliability, NOISE, and other issues.
Not everyone is thinking about it from this perspective
and sometimes habit and comfort are stronger than dedication
as can be witnessed when someone needs to mow his lawn.
Most lawnmowers belch out more during one hour of mowing
than the modern car does during an entire week of driving
(not including CO2).
Hope this helps,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dan Frederiksen
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 7:07 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: EV achilles' heel
I think everyone can live with the cost of replacing lead acids once in a
while, and the energy loss in them from common discharge and even assuming
some heads would pop out of dark odorfilled areas and we would fix the
electronics cost for conversions we still have the EVs current achilles'
heel, the range.
how many have tried using a small combustion engine for range extension in
EVs? I imagine for instance a turbocharged 250cc motorcycle engine or even
look into the possibility of using a tesla turbine because of its simplicity
and potentially very compact size. (presumably run very smoothly too)
anyone tried auxiliary combustion? I know JB Straubel did a trailer but
that was a full size car motor as opposed to a small onboard one.
is everyone driving pure EV?
Dan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter. That's YEARS ago ! Since then has a lot happened. And we are
TRULY trying to bring this all up to western biz standards.
The newest cells are not even comparable with the old ones. They are
good. But still require the BMS.
The engineers in here did not accept the deal to sell old stock. That
decision came from investors with hard push. There was so much money
sitting on the cells at that time. Thay had to sell. I remember seeing
1 000 000 pcs of 10 Ah LiCo cells which were also gone old. They were
luckily scrapped and recycled.
I've tried to do all I can to get those old cells back and swapped but
it has not been possible yet. I have not yet given it up. There is not
so many bad cells out anyway.
As some of you might know we are building TS battery factory in Finland
too. Aim is to have fully automated factory with the highest quality
control available.
Input to the factory is raw materials. Output is battery systems with
integrated EVerything. Chargers, BMS, CPUs, DC/DCs... All you need to
run an EV. After that pack you just need a AC motor and controller. And
ofcourse the donor. Beta testers are already driving these packs and
feedback has not been bad I would say. Online remote diagnostics tells
us about problems before they occur.
Pressure is high since China is hoping to put tens of thousands of EVs
on their roads as soon as possible. Buses, delivery vans, cabs... They
invest $1 billion annually to get the EVs done.
Affordable Lion battery packs as turn key solution to EVerybody. This is
my dream and it just might happen. For sure it will happen but not
perhaps exactly as I have seen it. Biz is bis and hobby is hobby...what
can I say.
-Jukka
Peter VanDerWal kirjoitti:
You must be referring to Thunder Sky batteries? Has anyone actually cycle
tested these batteries and reported the results? I would not go by their
information posted. I would want to see a test with the C rate needed for
an EV?
A bunch of folks on the list got together several years back and purchased
a bunch of the Thundersky batteries. They performed poorly, lots of sag
and you could only pull the rated AH at low currents.
Apparently this was because thundersky sold them some old, defective
batteries they had lying around. They knew they were bad, but sold them
anyway. Supposedly they have improved their manufacturig since, however,
I wouldn't trust them to have improved their bussiness practices.
Buying from them is a crap shoot. Worse yet, if you do get a bad batch,
they won't stand behind their product. Personally it's not a gamble I'm
comfortable with.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Rich
I completely agree with you. I think if you only figure your cost then
driving electric cost more. If you figure depreciation on how much new cars go
down in value that would help. But to me it does not matter I would drive
electric if it cost twice as much. I refuse to support buying oil as much as I
can
and I vote with my pocket book.
There must be at least a hundred different reasons to drive electric. I can
only think of three reasons not to drive electric. And they are all related
to the ability of the vehicle. If the range exceeds the battery capacity, The
time to recharge is unreasonable for the time frame of the trip. The last one
I hate the most not being able to find power to plug into. In my case that
has to be 240.
Don Blazer
In a message dated 6/10/2007 9:03:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Steve Powers and I recently had an excellent offline discussion regarding
whether or not you "save money" driving an EV, as well as battery life,
ranges etc. He helped me do a rough calculation of how long my pack -might-
last which I've been wondering about. (About 10,000 miles)
Initially, I felt that I was probably saving money by driving my EV. I knew
I had to drive it for a few years to recoup any fuel savings but I figured I
was slowly earning back my investments and "doing good" in other factors
like environmental, and positively contributing to our energy problems.
Steve listed costs I didn't consider and provided some good, real-world
numbers on 8 volt lead battery life cycles which have me thinking that he's
right: This EV costs as much to own and operate over time as a gasoline
powered car. On top of this, my electricty rates just went up by 50%. That's
right: 50% for crappy, coal-fired electricity. Thanks to Constellation
Energy for buying Baltimore Gas & Electric.
Specifically, things like an extra insurance policy, extra registration, how
long I can make my batteries last, what they cost, and electricity rates all
contribute to this. Now I'm not saying that EV's aren't wroth the effort
just because it's not helping my wallet out. I'm just saying that it was a
real eye-opener.
But, there are some savings. My registration and insurance are much less
than a newer car. I don't pay into that fraud known as the Maryland
Emissions Testing program. I use the highways but I don't pay a fuel tax
because I'm not buying gasoline. The higher the price of gasoline goes, the
more quickly I'll recoup my costs in fuel savings. But cars will always
require maintenance of some kind or other. Does one ever really recoup costs
on a car?
I'm into my EV for $5278.00, purchase price, new batteries, charger and
controller repairs. I wonder if I'll ever get it back? :-)
At any rate, there are a lot of other reasons to drive an EV. I hate being
told that I have "no choice but to buy gasoline". That was probably my
biggest reason. I've also become disgusted with the wild price swings that
the gasoline market takes. The 50% increase in my electrical prices has been
coming for years and I knew it so I don't count that. Before and after,
prices are much more stable than gas or diesel. I'm also -way- too lazy to
research fuel companies in an attempt to avoid buying gasoline from
companies that "fund terrorism" or any other kind of "-ism".
Rich A.
_________________________________________________________________
Picture this – share your photos and you could win big!
http://www.GETREALPhotoContest.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>From what I hear, either towing in Neutral (manual transmission)
or in the >Highest gear< (4, 5 or 6 dependent on type of box)
could be the answer.
Best however is to either check with a mechanic or consult a
forum for RV'ers who have lists of cars that can safely be
towed across the continent and if a modification is necessary,
what is needed (oil cooler, disconnect driveshaft and so on).
How far do you want to go?
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Don Davidson
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 3:14 AM
To: EV_Discussion_Group
Subject: Towing an EV
I plan on towing my EV's using tow bars. If the EV's manual transmission is
in "neutral" the motor is disconnected from the driveshaft, correct? Will I
be damaging the motor towing the EV in this manner?
Thanks
Don B. Davidson III
Rome NY
[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Alan:
Wheelbase is the centerline distance from the front axle to the back axle.
Do you really mean track width? It is the transverse distance from the
centerline of the left wheel to the centerline of the right wheel.
Some wheelchairs have a provision for raising and lowering the operator.
With the operator high, it facilitated communication with standing people.
With the operator low, it is more stable on uneven ground.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Former owner of 48 volt Fiesta
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Brinkman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 10:36 AM
Subject: RE: Toyota makes an EV
> Jeff,
>
> I was just thinking about something like this early today. An elderly
> gentleman from our town is now using one of those three or four wheel
> mobility type electric units to get around in. When he goes down the
> side walk, and he does travel quite a distance, he has trouble at the
> crosswalks, and on uneven surfaces he will tip the unit on its side. I
> have contacted the city to repair one street / sidewalk connection to
> make it smoother, and they came out quickly and got it done when they
> heard that the fellow had fallen over. Making these units small to get
> around the house / store is fine, but then when they are taken any
> distance outside they hit an obstacle and then are unstable. I thought
> that the seat could be on a pedestal and lowered when taking the unit in
> uneven terrain, and possibly the front axle could move forward, and how
> could you make the wheel base widen cheaply?
>
> Alan
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Chris
If you produce anything today you risk the chance of being sued. You don't
even have to be in the wrong. They trying to keep themselves from going to
court.
I believe the warning is because of the amperage they are capable of putting
out with a direct short. Far more than a lead acid which can do a very good
job with a dead short as well. I have seen warnings that say the same thing
on large Gel batteries.
Don Blazer
In a message dated 6/13/2007 6:24:27 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On Wed, 2007-06-13 at 17:53 -0700, Michael Barkley wrote:
> My brother showed me this Li-Ion battery website
> today:
>
> http://www.tekbattery.com/products.html
>
My question is, why on earth would each 12V battery have a "high
voltage" warning label? I can understand why you'd want to label a 48V+
*pack* of batteries with such a warning, but each battery?
The danger that a single one of these batteries would pose has to do
with discharge *current* if you short one. But then the same is true of
a car or golf cart battery.
Am I being too critical, or is the person assembling or selling these
batteries just being dumb/paranoid/etc?
--
Christopher Robison
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ohmbre.org <-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre + Z2K + Warp13!
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How about a small trailer with even a bit of room for ballast ?
I was plannig to make a trailer with Lions under the floor. And a nice
small cover for the extra luggage.
The trailer would be an independent unit with charger and etc. You drive
with it a distance (say 80 miles) then you leave it for charging some
where and continue without it or you can just keep dragging it along
untile reached the destiation. You could still use the oh-so-old lead in
the car for comfort.
A small trailer could sell for 5000-8000 USD. Or how about If few would
be made and rented for testing ? Or a EV chapter aquire one and folks
can use it when needed. 1 week annually each member.
-Jukka
Michael Wendell kirjoitti:
I've considered a veggie oil diesel or a propane generator
given that the tesla roadster motor makes 170kWh shouldn't
30Kw generation be possible in a reasonably sized generator.
didn't we just spend more than a month discussing the innefficiencies of an
onboard (or trailered) generator? is it possible to put this information in
the FAQ somewhere and point all future discussions to that URL?
m.
Michael Wendell
Speedgoat Bicycles
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Win a $5000 custom mountain bike, and help fight breat cancer!
http://www.speedgoat.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So are you planning to throw in a free fire exinguisher with that cheap
PFC-20 case ;-)
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rich Rudman
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 2:31 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: New Zillch Controller
God! I am still laughing!!!
Dad would love to not have to bend #6 gage wire around the insides of a
PFC40...
Smaller wire.... Yea Right... I caught a PFC40 sucking 62 Amps of 240 this
last week.
I can now make as many amps with a small form factor(PFC20 Case) than I can
with the PFC50 large case charger..
No You can't do that with shimpy parts and cheap circuit boards and tiny
windings...
There are real reasons why the PFC chargers and the Zilla cost t fortune to
make. It's called expensive parts and hard produce machining and assembly
procedures. Otmar spends quite a bit of time tuning up the Zillas.. and
charges for it.
And both of us have found that cloning our skill sets on new employees is
harder than actually making the product.
Madman...
NO I am not shipping 50 amp chargers in a 20 amp cases.. I don't want to
warrenty that power level!!.....yet.
I have yet to find the limits to the REV 8 power board...Cooling settles at
about 44.5 amps on an thermal soak test. The Hybrid tune 40HM are really
close to 50 amp input and 40 amp output mchines.. But I have tune up control
over them... The customer does not.
Oh that's 44.5 amps of 224 VAC ..or a Tad shy of 10,000 watts.
Even at this level... I Crave the Hybrid Plus's direct connection to 1200
A123 Cells.
We are yeilding about 88 miles per Gallon with a 10Kw support of the Hybrid
pack...
Hybrid plus is getting well over 100 miles per gallon... because they don't
pump the power through a DC to DC converter... And A123s don't sag much with
a 150 amp load on them...
Asking for 150 amps from a 16 cell wide Stack of A123s.. is asking each Cell
for about 10 amps.....Yawwnn!
You don't want to know how abusive asking for 10Kw from a pack 24 18
amphour Agms is...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chip Gribben" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 3:37 AM
Subject: New Zillch Controller
> I'm new to EVs. My name is Dan Crankenstein.
>
> EV controllers are too expensive. So I have a plan to make a new
> controller called the "Zillch". It's called the "Zillch" because it
> won't cost that much to make.
>
> I can make them cheaper but I need your help. If you have a Zilla
> controller can you crack it open and take some pictures of it for me?
> I'm too cheap to buy one myself. On Otmar's blog he says he's paying
> $20,000 for transistors. Now hold on there, that's way too much. I
> can get a whole bunch of them for $20.00 at Radio Shack. I think I
> have enough Radio Shack points accumulated now for a $5.00 coupon
> this month.
>
> My new "Zillch" controller won't have a "Hairball." First of all, it
> sounds like something the cat coughed up. And having a hairball is
> like having a transmission in an EV - you don't need one. So my
> controller won't have this "hairball" thing. That will make it
> cheaper. The Curtis controller didn't have a "Hairball". My nephew's
> Power Wheels doesn't have a hairball.
>
> So that's the plan for the new "Zillch" controller.
>
> Also, I left a message on Rich Rudman's voicemail and offered him my
> advice on chargers but he won't call back. So if anyone has a PFC
> charger I need you to open those up and take some pictures for me.
> PFC sounds "Pretty Fricken Complex" so I'm naming my charger "PFA"
> for "Pretty Fricken Affordable." And my charger will be smaller and
> will use smaller wiring to make it lighter.
>
> Who's with me? Just send your photos to [EMAIL PROTECTED] We'll
> worry about the "Intellectual Property Rights" thing -whatever that
> means - later on. Right now the most intellectual thing to do is make
> cheap EV parts.
>
> And with my new EV parts I'll throw in a free fire extinguisher. I
> bet Otmar and Rich won't offer those for free.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Geez
Dan.. I have replied to your post once and I also think you are a waste of
our time..
Tread lighter Ma Boy..or yer gonna be outta here pretty quick.
New Guy.. 13 posts since I left this PC at about 3 pm.
Say do you know everything????
Was I this bad Way back when???
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 3:29 PM
Subject: Re: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?
> sounds good. let's see it. I'm sure the list would love to see the
> innards and hear a bit about it. it doesn't matter that people can't
> duplicate it from that. it's the inspiration. we see a lot on tv we
> can't duplicate easily but we love to see it anyway and someday we might
> say 'this product inspired me to do this'
>
> greed is an illusion of a winning strategy
> my precious
>
> Rich Rudman wrote:
> > Where's the two By Fir!!??
> >
> > Feeding trolls???
> > or doing a little tenderizing of thier hides???
> >
> > I should post full shots of the insides of a PFC charger... and wait
until
> > the questions come in....
> >
> > Ot and I and for that fact Damon could dump a pile of all our parts on
the
> > list with Schematics and in.... and most if not all on this list would
have
> > real problems assembling them and getting stuff to work right.
> >
> > It's not the parts... it's the assembly that is a real booger to convey
on
> > making Power Electronics work right and hang together.
> >
> > And yes...
> > Madman owns a Zilla 2K. It took 3 PFC30s to pry it off of Otmar's copper
> > dusted fingers.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> Bill Dube' (Yes, I own a Zilla.)
> >>
> >>
> >>> Bill Dube skrev:
> >>>
> >>>> Otmar tells me anything I ask him, but I'm not trying to rip off
> >>>> his design and sell it as my own. :-)
> >>>>
> >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 3:55 PM
Subject: Re: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?
> funny :)
> if telling me which small TO220 IGBT he uses would be irresponsible what
> is digikey.com then? crimes against humanity?
>
Niether I or Otmar use TO-220 Igs....
too small...
Look farther down in the spendy charts...
APT80GP60Js...
I will let Otmar give you his chip numbers. If he wants to educate you.
Got yer power supply topology chart handy???
Look up Buck mode... That's the controller...
Look up Boost mode and Buckboost and Buck, On the fly of the grid's sine
wave for my power stage.
Digi Krime is a book of many opertunities... you make them as you see fit.
Ot buys direct as so do I from manufactures Reps for the power Sand, The
small stuff is Miser and Digikrime....
I am not sure if this is fun or torture...
Madman
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The OJ racing team is whipped from a day of prep and travel that only
netted one warm up run of 10.67 @127 at 80% power. Preparations were
made for a 5:00 pm start at Quaker City Raceway, 20 minutes from
Lawless Industries. At 4:00 pm the skies opened up and the rain and
hail began. We made a decision at 4:30 to forgo Quaker and set sail
for Thompson, 1 1/2 hrs north where the skies were blue. We arrived at
6:00 pm and got OJ in the staging lanes for a warmup run. 10.67 secs
and 127mph later OJ returned seemingly unscathed and ready to get
cranked up for a record run. Eric complained of an extremely rough
track just past the finish line but said it was manageable. We
recharged and anticipated a low 10 sec run. During the burnout I
noticed a quick flare and some smoke from one of the motors. I pulled
OJ from the line and inspected the brush gear on the right rear motor.
Sure enough we had a stuck brush which had arched during the burnout.
It probably stuck on the previous run and we missed it during our post
run inspection. We quickly filed the brush, reassembled, and attempted
to get back in line for time trials but were told the lanes were closed
and we would have to wait for eliminations to start before we could get
another t-n-t run. At 7:45 pm they opened staging lane 8 where we had
been told to go. I asked the starter where to line up and was told in
a very disrespectful way that they didn't have time for us right then
and that we would have to check back later after a couple of
elimination rounds. I was miffed! At 8:00 pm we sat fully charged in
the pits waiting to run when Craig called and checked back with Quaker.
They said the rain had past and they would be running until 10:00pm.
We decided one run at a friendly track was better than all day with
these Putz's so we loaded up and high tailed it to Quaker. Our
aggressive driving had us at the gate at 9:20pm. Plenty of time we
thought, for 2 runs. Fate was not on our side however as fog had moved
in and the track had stopped running at 9:15. 250 miles of driving
netted us one full warm -up run. Not bad for a day of racing. BTW,
You won't be seeing any more Lawless records at Thompson. They loved
AGNS but aren't so fond of OJ. Hard to believe but they actually began
to feel the heat from the electric furnace and got defensive.
Wednesday was not a big turnout (mostly street cars), however when OJ
ran 10.67 it was one of , if not the, quickest times of the day. I
don't think they knew what to do. I will take that as a victory in
itself. The DR-B record will have to wait until I return from Hong
Kong in a few weeks. By then AGNS should be ready to go with some new
DEKAS and a run at NEDRA records number 5, 6, and 7.
Some days are diamond- some are stone.
Shawn
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, Lithium do taper, but not nearly as long as AGMs or flooded batteries.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Former owner of 48 Volt Fiesta
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 6:06 PM
Subject: Re: New Zillch Controller
> It's really great that more amps can fit in a smaller space Rich. It
makes
> the dream of a quick charging motorcycle more of a reality. Just 200
pounds
> of Lithium, Zilla and a PFC would make a very practical commute vehicle
with
> a hundred mile(at 60mph) range using a Zzipper fairing. The smaller pack
> makes it possible to carry the Zilla and the PFC. Might EVen get a 3 hour
> total charge including taper or am I too hopeful. (Hmmm do Lithium
batteries
> taper???? I guess they just want their amphours back) Lawrence Rhodes....
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 2:30 PM
> Subject: Re: New Zillch Controller
>
>
> > God! I am still laughing!!!
> >
> > Dad would love to not have to bend #6 gage wire around the insides of a
> > PFC40...
> >
> > Smaller wire.... Yea Right... I caught a PFC40 sucking 62 Amps of 240
this
> > last week.
> > I can now make as many amps with a small form factor(PFC20 Case) than I
> can
> > with the PFC50 large case charger..
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wait you Mush heads ..
The Yota Torque split device...
is basicly a Differential that has a Engine and two motors to divide the
torque and the electrical power up in any way needed.
All the variable math is done with the BLDC vector drive motors.
NO clutches... no sliping of anything mechanical.
Take a open differential... lock one wheel.. the other goes 2x the speed it
was going.. let the locked wheel spin.. at what ever speed you want it to..
taking or adding torque via a 4 quadrant motor.. Add back in the negative
torque to the output shaft... and you can have just about any ratio you need
to move the car attached to the last wheel... You get mechanical torque..
and added power from the Batteries..and the Amp path from the alternator.
It looks aLOT like a planetary Automatic transmission. With motors attached
to the output shaft and the planetary cluster.
Cool stuff and about 1/2 as complicated as I used to think.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 7:27 PM
Subject: Re: How the Prius Works
> so you can't generalize. no biggie.
> I think it's a bad design because it's a complicated way to make a gas
> car look like an EV
>
> TrotFox Greyfoot wrote:
> > Um dude. It's not a clutch. A clutch is a friction based mechanical
> > disconnect. The Prius has an electronic torque converter if you want
> > to call it anything other than a CVT.
> >
> > BTW, it's a CVT. I'd actually like to know why you think it's a bad
> > design but seeing as it's in an ICE car, please tell me offline.
> >
> > I seriously doubt you're going to be asked for any autographs. Just
> > my hunch though...
> >
> > Trot, the fairly-technical, fox...
> >
> > On 6/13/07, Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> Danny Miller wrote:
> >> > No, the CVT is a proper transmission and can carry the full HP of the
> >> > engine to the wheels.
> >> > There is only one electric motor/generator. Actually there's a
second
> >> > motor for engine starting and providing countertorque for the CVT
> >> think about it
> >> it is the variable component deciding the grip from the motor to the
> >> wheels..
> >>
> >>
> >> no autographs please :)
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 2007-06-14 at 02:01 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> If you produce anything today you risk the chance of being sued. You don't
> even have to be in the wrong. They trying to keep themselves from going to
> court.
> I believe the warning is because of the amperage they are capable of putting
> out with a direct short. Far more than a lead acid which can do a very good
> job with a dead short as well. I have seen warnings that say the same thing
> on large Gel batteries.
At the risk of making a commotion out of nothing...
I doubt you've seen a "high voltage" warning label on a 12V gel cell,
specifically because it's not high voltage (i.e. enough voltage to pass
through the skin and present a shock hazard). What you may have seen is
something like "High power battery - Do Not Short Circuit", which would
be a more appropriate warning. If I'm wrong, I'd be entertained to see
any other example of a high-voltage label on a 12V battery.
And though it's beside the point, the current capability of the smaller
batteries on the page is actually not nearly as high as many AGM lead
acid batteries such as Hawkers, Orbitals or Optimas. Still, shorting
either type of product brings you well past the threshold of having a
metal-vaporizing, potentially fire-starting event. I believe the danger
is basically the same as with a lead battery, and if anything should be
more accurately described by the right warning label, not one that is
incorrect and misleading.
Certainly EnerSys, Exide and Johnson Controls have no interest in being
sued either, and they had no High Voltage labels on their low-voltage
batteries, last time I checked.
This may not be a really big deal; I imagine anyone who buys one of
these batteries will be fully aware of the dangers, and will know they
come from current and not voltage. I just think it makes the vendor look
silly.
--
Christopher Robison
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ohmbre.org <-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre + Z2K + Warp13!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Peter. That's YEARS ago ! Since then has a lot happened. And we are
> TRULY trying to bring this all up to western biz standards.
Sure, but reputations last forever. They had an opportunity to fix their
reputation and decided not to, that's a pretty clear indication of their
coporate strategy.
If they want to fix their reputation, then they should give refunds or
free cells to the people they screwed.
A company that is comfortable with screwing their customers is not a
company I want to deal with.
>
> The newest cells are not even comparable with the old ones. They are
> good. But still require the BMS.
>
> The engineers in here did not accept the deal to sell old stock. That
> decision came from investors with hard push. There was so much money
> sitting on the cells at that time. Thay had to sell. I remember seeing
> 1 000 000 pcs of 10 Ah LiCo cells which were also gone old. They were
> luckily scrapped and recycled.
>
> I've tried to do all I can to get those old cells back and swapped but
> it has not been possible yet. I have not yet given it up. There is not
> so many bad cells out anyway.
>
> As some of you might know we are building TS battery factory in Finland
> too. Aim is to have fully automated factory with the highest quality
> control available.
>
> Input to the factory is raw materials. Output is battery systems with
> integrated EVerything. Chargers, BMS, CPUs, DC/DCs... All you need to
> run an EV. After that pack you just need a AC motor and controller. And
> ofcourse the donor. Beta testers are already driving these packs and
> feedback has not been bad I would say. Online remote diagnostics tells
> us about problems before they occur.
>
> Pressure is high since China is hoping to put tens of thousands of EVs
> on their roads as soon as possible. Buses, delivery vans, cabs... They
> invest $1 billion annually to get the EVs done.
>
> Affordable Lion battery packs as turn key solution to EVerybody. This is
> my dream and it just might happen. For sure it will happen but not
> perhaps exactly as I have seen it. Biz is bis and hobby is hobby...what
> can I say.
>
> -Jukka
>
>
> Peter VanDerWal kirjoitti:
>>> You must be referring to Thunder Sky batteries? Has anyone actually
>>> cycle
>>> tested these batteries and reported the results? I would not go by
>>> their
>>> information posted. I would want to see a test with the C rate needed
>>> for
>>> an EV?
>>
>> A bunch of folks on the list got together several years back and
>> purchased
>> a bunch of the Thundersky batteries. They performed poorly, lots of sag
>> and you could only pull the rated AH at low currents.
>>
>> Apparently this was because thundersky sold them some old, defective
>> batteries they had lying around. They knew they were bad, but sold them
>> anyway. Supposedly they have improved their manufacturig since,
>> however,
>> I wouldn't trust them to have improved their bussiness practices.
>>
>> Buying from them is a crap shoot. Worse yet, if you do get a bad batch,
>> they won't stand behind their product. Personally it's not a gamble I'm
>> comfortable with.
>>
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nothing wrong with a need to know, it's the need to insult that puts most
people off.
Odd isn't it? How some people believe that if they keep insulting others
they'll get what they want <shrug>.
> That same sociological phenomenon will drive one to dig for the most
> worthless of details, even though the person actually knows there is
> absolutely no benefit to having that piece of information. I do it all
> the time, in fact if I can't find a spec or piece of info I'll stay up all
> night Googling trying to find it, knowing that it will never benefit me or
> that I might just forget it anyway. The need to KNOW is is strong with us
> humans, almost as strong as the need to DO. Eventually the craving for
> the info wears off as the imperative To DO tasks becomes more evident.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 2:57 pm
> Subject: Re: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>
>> funny :)
>> if telling me which small TO220 IGBT he uses would be irresponsible
>> what
>> is digikey.com then? crimes against humanity?
>>
>> it's a sociological phenomenon that one after another will make up
>> deeply irrational arguments in support of what their ego is
>> needless
>> committed to
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>
>> Steven Ciciora wrote:
>> > What I'm suprised no one picked up on, read Otmar's
>> > blogs, even _Otmar_ has had trouble copying the Zilla!
>> > And he designed the thing!
>> >
>> > And people should pay attention to what Rich said
>> > below: Rich or Otmar could hand out complete kits of
>> > parts, bare PCBs, schematics, and 99% of the people on
>> > this list won't be able to put it together without
>> > blowing stuff up.
>> >
>> > So I can see why Otmar won't hand out info to just
>> > anyone who asks. Simply asking for a part number is
>> > asking the wrong question, and shows a lack of
>> > sufficient understanding. Answering questions like
>> > that would be irresponsible. It would be like saying
>> > "Here you go Don King, here's a hair dryer. Be
>> > careful!"
>> >
>> > - Steven Ciciora
>> >
>> > --- Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > <snip>
>> >
>> >> Ot and I and for that fact Damon could dump a pile
>> >> of all our parts on the
>> >> list with Schematics and in.... and most if not all
>> >> on this list would have
>> >> real problems assembling them and getting stuff to
>> >> work right.
>> >>
>> >> It's not the parts... it's the assembly that is a
>> >> real booger to convey on
>> >> making Power Electronics work right and hang
>> >> together.
>> >>
>> > <snip>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> ____________________________________________________________________________________>
>> Be a PS3 game guru.
>> > Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at
>> Yahoo! Games.
>> > http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> Was I this bad Way back when???
>
> Madman
Well, you can be a bit liberal with the 2x4 sometimes. I still have a
knot on the back of my head from when I joined the list ;-)
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 3:29 PM
> Subject: Re: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?
>
>
>> sounds good. let's see it. I'm sure the list would love to see the
>> innards and hear a bit about it. it doesn't matter that people can't
>> duplicate it from that. it's the inspiration. we see a lot on tv we
>> can't duplicate easily but we love to see it anyway and someday we might
>> say 'this product inspired me to do this'
>>
>> greed is an illusion of a winning strategy
>> my precious
>>
>> Rich Rudman wrote:
>> > Where's the two By Fir!!??
>> >
>> > Feeding trolls???
>> > or doing a little tenderizing of thier hides???
>> >
>> > I should post full shots of the insides of a PFC charger... and wait
> until
>> > the questions come in....
>> >
>> > Ot and I and for that fact Damon could dump a pile of all our parts on
> the
>> > list with Schematics and in.... and most if not all on this list would
> have
>> > real problems assembling them and getting stuff to work right.
>> >
>> > It's not the parts... it's the assembly that is a real booger to
>> convey
> on
>> > making Power Electronics work right and hang together.
>> >
>> > And yes...
>> > Madman owns a Zilla 2K. It took 3 PFC30s to pry it off of Otmar's
>> copper
>> > dusted fingers.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> Bill Dube' (Yes, I own a Zilla.)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> Bill Dube skrev:
>> >>>
>> >>>> Otmar tells me anything I ask him, but I'm not trying to rip off
>> >>>> his design and sell it as my own. :-)
>> >>>>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Not a problem..
I have a Raptor 1200 on a AvDC 8 inch motor.. and I drag race it....
Check your drive line.. 1200 amps and a 9 incher will stain U joints...
You will love it!
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Kobb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 8:37 PM
Subject: Over-volted ADC: Warranty issue
Hello, All --
I recently bought a 2002 S-10 shortbed and would like to convert it to a
156v EV.
To do this, I'd like to pair a DCP 1200 controller with an ADC FB1-4001A 9.1
inch motor.
I know two factoids about this combo:
1. Even though the motor has a rating of 144v, many people have run it with
156v.
2. ADC's FB1 warranty does not cover the kind of amperage that the DCP 1200
can deliver. I would therefore be using that controller and motor combo at
my own risk.
My question for the List is this: How concerned should I be?
Before you answer, you should know that I want to use this truck as a
daily-driver, back-and-forth to work. Even in my ICE car, I don't like to
drive faster than 65 mph on the freeway, and freeway-driving is 90% of the
daily travel.
So, what do you think? Am I asking for trouble by pairing these two major
components? Or is it no biggie; i.e., nothing to worry about?
Thanks in advance for your comments.
Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Er...make my Day...
Sell a Z2K will all the trimmings for about 10K.
Then I place a twin order with Otmar and wait as long as it takes to get
replacments.
Aka double my money...
and lets talk.
I seriously don't think anyone will take this offer..
I am back over 30 days lead time on new charger orders... some flavors are
heading for 60 days.
Yea ..$3 Buck gas is good for some of us! Otmar and I get burried at times
like this.
Now back to making my own Green boxes..
1100 E-mails later..
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 7:20 PM
Subject: Zilla 2k 300v Anyone?
> Hi all,
>
> I'm trying to cut out a 6+ month waiting time for a new Zilla. Anyone
looking to sell theirs for a premium? If so, please contact me off list.
>
> Thanks,
> -Matt
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> -Jukka
>
>
> Peter VanDerWal kirjoitti:
> >> You must be referring to Thunder Sky batteries? Has anyone actually
cycle
> >> tested these batteries and reported the results? I would not go by
their
> >> information posted. I would want to see a test with the C rate needed
for
> >> an EV?
Jukka.. Peter..
Listers...
RE: Thunder-sky
Tested..
Met thier posted specs...
I am impressed. They work as advertised.
I have collected a charge and discharge cycle that is exactly what they
graph on the Thunder-Sky site.
The 1 C rate is verifiable.
They are NOT a EV racer's battery.. 3C is all you want to take them to. They
won't be in any dragster of mine.
But they have real possibilities for PHEV and Range class EV projects.
The Bet??
Well it's a safe one as far as I can tell. I have a few mega Bytes of data
on that subject right now.
Rich Rudman
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Manzanita Micro
360-297-7383,
Cell 360-620-6266
Production shop 360-297-1660
FAX at Metal shop 1-360-297-3311
--- End Message ---
