EV Digest 7081
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Ni-MH cells and Chevron (Re: EV digest 7078)
by "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Bridgestone Ecopia EP-03 Tires
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: With barely a sound, electric dragsters aim for gas-powered records
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: With barely a sound, electric dragsters aim for
gas-powered records
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) EVs are slower than ICEs...for now (was: With barely a sound,
electric dragsters aim for gas-powered records)
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: With barely a sound, electric dragsters aim for gas-powered records
by =?windows-1252?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: With barely a sound, electric dragsters aim for gas-powered records
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Ni-MH cells and Chevron (Re: EV digest 7078)
by "George Swartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) What type controller..
by "Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: With barely a sound, electric dragsters aim for gas-powered records
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: [EV] What type controller..
by Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Is GM Playing Games with the Volt?
by Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: With barely a sound, electric dragsters aim for gas-powered records
by "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EVs are slower than ICEs...for now
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Ni-MH cells and Chevron
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) Re: Ni-MH cells and Chevron (Re: EV digest 7078)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) RE: parallel batteries
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: A123 chemistry
by Sam Maynard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: [EV] What type controller..
by Michael Barkley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
It's a "chemistry thing." Different brands, different quality. There are
plenty of ready NiMH packs for e-bikes that you can buy. Example:
http://www.poweridestore.com/NiMH-Battery-Packs/36V-13Ah-NiMH-Battery-Pack 3
of these would cost you $1000. This would work.
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Drysdale" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 1:26 PM
Subject: Re: Ni-MH cells and Chevron (Re: EV digest 7078)
Ah ha!
http://www.batterypower.com.au/nimh.htm
This was one of the sites I found, but lost when my bookmarks were
deleted in a web browser update.
All I could remember was the website and prices of the local electronics
franchise, not the best solution, and not the most economical.
Unfortunately, "Our website will be closed till June 18th 2007 while we
carry out maintenance work."
And is still closed, cannot contact.
About those Tenergy cells, if the D cell is apparently crap, I wonder if
it is a chemistry thing, or will other sizes be fine.
Something I might find out for myself.
And yes, I will post the results when I finish the project.
Cheers all,
James Drysdale.
Dmitri wrote:
Unfortunately, I have tried that Tenergy D cell, and it is crap.
http://www.batterypower.com.au/nimh.htm Here, btw, is a site I have
found some time ago that might be of use for you.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph Lado" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 11:30 AM
Subject: Re: EV digest 7078
James,
The Ni-MH issue is only with the large formate batteries. You might
look harder on the Internet for less expensive Ni-MH batteries. It
seems Toyota has gotten around the restriction by increasing the
number of power cells that they are using currently in the Prius to
power their next generation of plug in Priuses. The prices of the
market cells have come down a lot. You might look into powering your
bike with AA Ni-MH cells or D cells. You could probably pick them up
in AU saving your self the shipping costs.
Try Tenergy sold at All-Battery on the Internet.
https://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=355
Tenergy has a tabbed D cell battery that costs 7.95 and is rated at
1.2 volt at 10 Ah. To get the 36v 40Ah you want should only cost you
around 950 dollars. They may give you a break on price if you tell
them you are buying 120 batteries. I believe you can get them even
cheaper if they don't have tabs to weld them together into one pack.
Also try looking up a company called CTX. They have a D cell that is
rated at 13.5 Ah. It costs more but in may reduce the size of your pack.
Keep us posted on your project I want to see the end results.
Joseph Lado
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
I sold my Electravan 750 with the orginal bias tires. They still had good
tread & the sidewalls looked ok. I sent the new owner off to Utah with it
in tow. Of course after 26 years it only had a few thousand miles on the
tires. I wasn't worried one bit. If you are within load ratings tires can
last a long time.
The tires on my LeCar were made in 1993; but they have a 959 lbs rating
and the car weighs only 2500 lbs, so there is a considerable derating.
The tires on my Corvair are too old to have a DOT number; 1980 I'd
guess. But again, they have a considerable derating; 1155 lbs tires on a
2600 lbs car.
Neither of these sets of tires show any signs of sidewall cracking or
weathering, and they seem to perform normally. Both cars are garaged,
and I have lived in small towns with generally low air pollution levels.
Now, my ComutaVan came with its original 1980 tires when I bought it in
1987. It had spent its life outdoors, and the tires were seriously
cracked and dry-rotted. They were replaced promptly.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
* ---REMAINDER OF MESSAGE TRUNCATED--- *
John Wayland wrote:
Yet another truncated post! Fortunately, thanks to a link someone gave
the other day, I was able to go dig his post up and actually read it.
John, I am also using Thunderbird for email. On mine, if I type
control-U, a window opens up with the message source, which sometimes
includes the truncated test. It worked with the MrGoFast99 message, for
example.
You can also find this command in the "View" menu as "Message Source".
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As an example
> a 7000hp top fuel dragster weighs about 2400lbs a 5000hp electric dragster
> with the 123 batteries avaible today would weigh at least 4500lbs(2500 in
> batteries)
I think you have not done the math quite right. A 5000 HP
battery pack made of off-the-shelf A123 systems M1 cells would weigh
just under 2000 lbs. If we use the prototype A123 Systems Ultra
cells, (they exist, but in very small numbers right now) this would
drop to something like 1000 lbs. A 7000 HP pack would weigh about
1400 lbs, leaving 1000 lbs for the motor(s), controller, and rolling
chassis. Not at all impossible, if one's pockets are deep enough.
Bill Dube'
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have to agree with Jim on this one. The article gave a very
balanced account of the present state of EV drag racing in the
context of ICE drag racing.
We aren't _the_ very fastest ....yet. Basically, he has said
that we are making major waves in the drag racing world and closing
the gap very rapidly. He has also shown that some of the folks in
charge at the NHRA are likely to be in for a big surprise this next season.
It is a fact that the fastest EVs are not as fast as the
fastest ICEs on the drag strip at this time. To argue against this is
foolish. To be insulted by this statement of fact is hubris.
Personally, I readily admit that EVs are not as fast as ICEs.....yet.
A123 Systems is planning to produce cells that are about
TWICE as much HP/lb as their present M1 cells. On the KillaCycle, we
manage to get over 4,000 W/kg out of the M1 cells. If we swap in
cells twice as powerful, and double the HP of the bike without
increasing the weight, and leave everything else the same, this drops
the calculated ET to 6.5 seconds (if the present motors can take it,
and we manage to link up the HP to the track.)
Further, if we boost the HP to 1000 with the A123 Systems
Ultra-cells, trim off many pounds of spinning motor weight by going
to an AC drive, and shave every possible ounce out of the rest of the
bike, the low 6's are possible and the high 5's are likely within
reach. Of course, none of this will be easy or cheap. :-)
Bill Dube'
At 07:26 AM 7/29/2007, you wrote:
Hey John, Rod
First off, I've only been at this just two short years
and know you two have at least 10 times that on me.
Having "not" been there all those years, I can only
imagine (and read about) what it took to make what is
happening "now" come to fruit. I'd also imagine that
anything hinting at negativity is disappointing and
frustrating 8^(
Honestly though I didn't read this article as being as
bad as you two felt it was. It didn't "phase" me at
all that they wrote that ICE's are still much faster
than electrics! I mean come on, most people haven't
EVen got a clue Electric cars exist let alone race!
Being able to knock the snot out of a V06 Corvette
isn't a small feat and EVen your average smuck knows
that 8^)
I guess I try to focus on the positive vs the negitive
in EVery aspect of my life and stuff like this falls
very much into that ideal. In as much as John was
able to pick out parts he felt were detrimental to the
cause I'd like to snip some that I felt were more
positive 8^)
Pollacheck crosses the quarter-mile marker doing 156
m.p.h. (251 km/h); he's
travelled 402 metres in 8.22 seconds, faster than any
of the gas-powered
cars, trucks or motorcycles that have raced in the
drag sprints on this
weekend at Portland International Raceway.
Electric vehicles are making their presence felt at
amateur drag races
across the United States, challenging gas-powered cars
and motorcycles. The
"amp heads," computer geeks and tree-hugging
environmentalists driving the
electron-powered vehicles are starting to kick some
major rear end.
(Starting to kick some major rear end is IMO a pretty
positive statement!)
Pollacheck and his bike - dubbed the KillaCycle - are
part of a growing
movement that's exploiting breakthroughs in battery
technology and could
soon challenge the world's fastest-accelerating
vehicles in the $1-billion
drag-racing industry.
(here it is... "us" no budget hacks vs a billion
dollar industry! Would anyone but a moron expect us
to be on top right now?!)
But electric vehicle racers say people like Light are
out of the loop. They
say rapid advances in battery technology will give EVs
a shot at drag-racing
records.
(Here the author states a gas racers opinion, but also
counters it with how an EV guys sees the future!)
(I'm sorry but I see that as him doing his homework
and offering up both sides of the coin so to speak, he
is simply writing what both sides have to say)
"This is a disruptive technology and there is a lot of
room for improvement
in this area," said Ric Fulop, founder and vice
president of business
development for A123, the maker of KillaCycle's
batteries. In December, the KillaCycle will receive a
second-generation battery pack
that will have twice as much juice as its current
374-volt system, giving it
close to 1,000 horsepower. Fulop said he believes the
KillaCycle can break
the drag racing motorcycle record within the next
year.
(again he puts in that we're just getting started!)
Anyway, bottom line is we aren't as fast as the ICE's
yet. That (to me) isn't very negitive at all, it's
common knowlege. I just had to chime in as it seems
you didn't pay any attention to things that I felt
were positive and wanted to choose a few things you
didn't paste 8^P
I guess it's all in how you see things 8^)
Just my two positive pennies worth 8^o
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing.
http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/index.php
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John, Don't the reporter send you a copy to preview and fix details
before it is printed ? Are they so SURE they got all the details right
or it just does not matter to them...
I think the reporter made the case clear and any reader who understands
anything will see the bad comparison. Lil Datsun is not
Top-Fuel-Nitro-Funny-thing.... So instead of showing you the article
forehand he made an idiot of him self...
What's AP ? ( :) might be distributed around the world but not
read...)
I think in this context there is NO bad publicity. Word is OUT !
Excellent job John !!
-Jukka
John Wayland kirjoitti:
Hello to All,
Well, two articles out in the same day...one 'OK' one (Portland Tribune)
and this one (AP), a stinker in my opinion. The entire tone of Aaron
Clark's article is quite negative and seems to focus on electrics not
measuring up:
>...they still have a ways to go before matching professional world
record times. The fastest >quarter-mile time by an electric vehicle is
the KillaCycle's 8.16 seconds - that's 2.36 seconds off the
>nitromethane world record for drag bikes
Geesh! The A123 lithium batteries are still in their infancy, there's no
big name sponsor 'money', the bike is a backyard-built affair, it's
still being tweaked and developed, and yet, within a year of its build
it's knocking on nitromethane's door? - and this still isn't good enough
to impress?
Here's one that really got to me:
>.....electric vehicles have even more catching up to do. White
Zombie's best time in a quarter-mile is >11.46 seconds - still 6.4
seconds away from the Top Fuel record.
Who in their right mind, compares a street legal import sedan that is
driven to and from the track (not trailered), to and from the grocery
store, to and from car shows ... and runs low 11s, to a full blown top
fuel funny car? I don't know about everybody else, but it's been a while
since I saw my neighbor drive his top fuel funny car dragster to Safeway
:-) I could see this statement having merit if White Zombie's mission
was to beat a top fuel pure racing machine (a thinking person would use
a similar funny car chassis and not a 35 year old economy sedan), but
come on...it's a small economy car! Most people think a fully street
legal electric car turning 11s is notable. Oh well :-(
On the other hand, maybe I should be happy that my little 'ol electric
Datsun is actually being mentioned in the same sentence as a top fuel
funny car dragster and that he 'did say' that a street legal EV can beat
a Z06 Vette :-)
More negativity from Aaron:
>Not everyone in the gas-powered crowd is convinced electric vehicles
are the next big thing.
And here's more negativity he found to include in his story :
>βI certainly don't see them challenging for professional records in
the near future,β said Graham >Light, at the NHRA. βat this point I
don't see a strong movement toward electric cars.β
Mark this down as a quote....Mr. Grahm will someday eat his words.
Yeah, after all the time I spent talking with Aaron both on the phone
and in person, I am VERY disappointed in his story. What's really bad,
is that this is an AP story, so it's been distributed around the world!
This one stings. Oh well, I guess we need to stay thick-skinned and take
the good with the bad!
I am now looking ahead to John Fialka's Wall Street Journal story, one I
am absolutely certain will be upbeat.
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Jim Ludicker and All,
Thanks to Lee Hart for giving me a simple keystroke heads-up that allows
me to read the following:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
if you want to compare
electric drag vehicles to gas drag vehicles try this............a light weight
import, gutted,lightened,filled with batteries and shish kabob electric motors
(two motors on a stick unroasted hopefully) that has limited range.
Jim, it's obvious you've been out of the loop too long (we miss you,
too). It's also obvious you don't go to my readily available web page
where everything about White Zombie is an open book anyone can look at.
If you had, and if you read my many, many posts, you may not have said
the above in regards to my car being 'gutted' and 'lightened'. It's the
exact opposite. I take pride in the fact that I 'have not' gutted the
car or done lightening tricks to the body, so you telling everyone it's
a gutted and lightened car is misinformation.
With the exception of the back seat (to make room for a battery
tray...if we someday get lithium, you can count on the back seat being
reinstalled), the car actually has more interior pieces than stock!
Stock 1200s had no carpets...mine does. Stock 1200s had a thin cardboard
type material on the kick panels...mine is carpeted there, too, My car
still has all of the interior panels in place, the headliner is still
there (though a bit crispy in one spot), and it has both front seats
installed (they are racing types, but with the heavy gauge mounts we
made to accommodate them, they weigh about the same as stock 1200 front
seats weigh. The dash has all its factory stuff, plus extra gauges. The
car's body has not been lightened even one ounce over stock...it has the
factory steel bumpers, all the original steel bodywork, all the original
glass, and it even has an after market glass and steel sunroof that adds
weight over stock, too.
VS a "street heavy" radio, heater, air cond, seats for four also an import and with
a little tweaking, chip, turbo, trash can exhaust and all real glass windows.
....pump gas burning smog causing import that will run low 10 and
high 9 sec in the quarter mile will be about 10 to 15 car lengths ahead at
the end of the quarter mile (you do the math) and then put 3 people in the car
and drive to Vegas in comfort for lunch, I know, those sob's drive by my
house every day, with their foot in it..........Those are apples VS apples.
Wow Jim, more misinformation! Again, you need to get out more :-)
Portland has a very active import ricer-tuner racing scene. On the
Friday and Saturday night drags Tim and I attend and race at, the
$30,000-$35,000 ~300 hp factory Mitsus and Subes run low 13s (never 12s)
and indeed, can haul four people and have a stereo and air. We kick
their butt badly with a $15,000 street legal electric car. The type of
tweaked imports you describe don't come close to running 10s and
9s...they run high 13s - down to high 12s, not 10s and 9s. The ones that
do run in the low 12s and high 11s are partially gutted and run racing
slicks, and have as much $15,000 dumped into them, making them also,
$30,000 cars....we kick their butts, too. The extremely rare exceptions
that do run 10s and very high 9s are more like how you tried to paint
'my car' as being, that is, they are indeed, gutted with bare painted
steel inside, no passenger seat, no rear seat, no carpet, no door
panels, most all side glass replaced with paper thin Lexan, cheesy
looking wavy fiberglass hoods and fenders, huge track-only wrinkle wall
slicks, and about $40k dumped into them. They do not drive them to the
track and they only arrive on trailers...they are all out racing
machines. They do not have sound system, do not have air conditioning,
and cannot carry any passengers...not even one passenger, and they won't
be taking anyone out for a long drive to lunch. This is a far cry from
my car and it is 'not' apples to apples.
Examples;
A local guy known for his mundane looking Mitsu sedan that has all stock
interior and exterior, is highly regarded by the import tuner freaks,
because he has not done any gutting and lightening of the car, he drives
it to the track, and he only installs drag slicks when he gets to the
track...he runs 12.4 or so and has about $20k invested. We beat him easily.
A young man at one of my accounts came to watch White Zombie run in the
11s at the Wayland Invitational III races. I saw him last week, and he
was quite animated. In front of his fellow young dude warehousemen
friends, he was boasting about my car when I arrived on scene. He went
on all about 'his' hot Honda racer he ran at PIR a few years ago,
telling all how he had made it as light as he could, and how he had
dumped most of his paychecks into the car to make it quicker and
quicker. He said he had about $20,000 in it, and the best ET he ever
turned, was 12.25.
Another local guy has one of the quickest Honda hatches around. It is a
wicked, all black machine! It comes in on a trailer and is not street
legal. It has 11 inch wide wrinkle walls up front and wheelie bars in
back. It has no interior at all, no factory glass except the windshield,
racing carbon fiber hood and fenders, and is a mere shell of a car. The
motor makes about 600 real hp and there's $40k+ invested in the car. He
runs 10 flat, and has to date, not yet run 9s. It is an awesome car to
watch run! If this is the type of car you want to compare to mine and
then call it apples to apples, go ahead, but I don't think anyone else
would agree with you.
Without gutting my car and doing the lightening tricks you claim I've
done to the body, with time to learn how to adjust the power we had on
July 14th with the 175 lb., 1400 amp lithium pack, everyone there (you
were not) knows the car can run 10s just the way it is, and then we'd be
right in the game with the truly gutted and major-modified imports you
speak of, even though White Zombie is not at all set up the same way.
'If' I wanted to (I do not), I could gut the car, tub and flare the
wheel wells, install big for-real wrinkle wall slicks, install a four
link rear end, and get sponsored with twin 200 lb. lithium packs, then
put both of my Zilla Z2ks in the car, wire one up to each motor section,
do away with series-parallel shifting and the .3 second loss of power
during the transition, and supply 1700 amps from each pack into each
Zilla! The car would only weigh 2100-2150 lbs. and would make a real
450-500 hp! I imagine low 10's-high 9s would be the result. That, my
friend, is apples to apples, and we'd probably beat all contenders from
the gasser import world!
Instead, I prefer making my case to the world of how fun a fully street
legal, very drivable EV can be. I get lots of comments of how the car
'is not' gutted and how it's not a racing-only type of car, and that is
exactly what designing, improving, and racing the world's quickest
accelerating street legal electric car is all about. If we ever do get
lucky enough to have stout lithiums supplied to us, the twin Zilla -
twin pack thing might happen, but there would still be no gutting of the
car and it would still be ran in PS (Pro Street) to promote street legal
EVs. In fact, if lithiums do come our way, one of the first mods to the
car will be a back seat reinstalled and a signature Wayland sound system!
I'll leave it to Rod Wilde to run a full racing type street-bodied EV,
when Maniac Mazda returns. Now this, is a gutted and fully racing type
electric. It's an MC (Modified Conversion) class racer, and it ran an 11
flat years ago. All he has to do, is power it up with lithiums and do
some other update type mods, and the car will probably run low 10s -
high 9s.
>...talk is cheap, bring it to the race track.
Tim and I do, every chance we get! Perhaps you should get off the couch
and take your own advice? We'd love to have you back.
See Ya.....John Wayland
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For NiMH bike batteries, check your local Toyota dealer. They sometimes
have batteries taken out of Priuses due to a seal leakage problem, but no
real problem with capacity or battery performance failure. You can take
these apart to get the individual cell packs. I am not sure how to handle
the BMS issues. I am supposed to get two of these batteries soon, so I
don't have the hands on experience yet. George
On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 16:28:56 -0400, Dmitri wrote
> It's a "chemistry thing." Different brands, different quality. There
> are plenty of ready NiMH packs for e-bikes that you can buy.
> Example: http://www.poweridestore.com/NiMH-Battery-Packs/36V-13Ah-
> NiMH-Battery-Pack 3 of these would cost you $1000. This would work.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "James Drysdale" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 1:26 PM
> Subject: Re: Ni-MH cells and Chevron (Re: EV digest 7078)
>
> > Ah ha!
> > http://www.batterypower.com.au/nimh.htm
> > This was one of the sites I found, but lost when my bookmarks were
> > deleted in a web browser update.
> > All I could remember was the website and prices of the local electronics
> > franchise, not the best solution, and not the most economical.
> >
> > Unfortunately, "Our website will be closed till June 18th 2007 while we
> > carry out maintenance work."
> > And is still closed, cannot contact.
> >
> > About those Tenergy cells, if the D cell is apparently crap, I wonder if
> > it is a chemistry thing, or will other sizes be fine.
> > Something I might find out for myself.
> > And yes, I will post the results when I finish the project.
> >
> > Cheers all,
> > James Drysdale.
> >
> >
> >
> > Dmitri wrote:
> >> Unfortunately, I have tried that Tenergy D cell, and it is crap.
> >>
> >> http://www.batterypower.com.au/nimh.htm Here, btw, is a site I have
> >> found some time ago that might be of use for you.
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph Lado" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> >> Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 11:30 AM
> >> Subject: Re: EV digest 7078
> >>
> >>
> >>> James,
> >>>
> >>> The Ni-MH issue is only with the large formate batteries. You might
> >>> look harder on the Internet for less expensive Ni-MH batteries. It
> >>> seems Toyota has gotten around the restriction by increasing the
> >>> number of power cells that they are using currently in the Prius to
> >>> power their next generation of plug in Priuses. The prices of the
> >>> market cells have come down a lot. You might look into powering your
> >>> bike with AA Ni-MH cells or D cells. You could probably pick them up
> >>> in AU saving your self the shipping costs.
> >>>
> >>> Try Tenergy sold at All-Battery on the Internet.
> >>>
> >>> https://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=355
> >>>
> >>> Tenergy has a tabbed D cell battery that costs 7.95 and is rated at
> >>> 1.2 volt at 10 Ah. To get the 36v 40Ah you want should only cost you
> >>> around 950 dollars. They may give you a break on price if you tell
> >>> them you are buying 120 batteries. I believe you can get them even
> >>> cheaper if they don't have tabs to weld them together into one pack.
> >>> Also try looking up a company called CTX. They have a D cell that is
> >>> rated at 13.5 Ah. It costs more but in may reduce the size of your
pack.
> >>>
> >>> Keep us posted on your project I want to see the end results.
> >>>
> >>> Joseph Lado
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok.. It is time for me to look at buying a controller..
Like I have stated before I have a Motor that takes 30 volts at 300 amps,,
However I am planing on using 36 volts and I guess at times that would bring
the current up to 360 amps .
It is a air craft starter engine. My car will weight no more than 1500
pounds when done and that's with the batteries and all..
What are my choices for controllers that would do a good job for this??
I am also assuming that 36 volts will be ok when I use a controller?
Thanks Mitchell
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If the electric racing world wanted to they could
build their own drag strip with a catenary overhead or
a third rail/ slot car strip down the center. Maybe
even a tessla generator/reciver and then we would see
electric racing times go way down. the top fueler drag
racers will do anything to get down the 1/4 faster,
none of which is practicle for street transition so
electrics could play that game too then we might see
some real competition.
keith
--- Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > As an example
> > > a 7000hp top fuel dragster weighs about 2400lbs
> a 5000hp electric dragster
> > > with the 123 batteries avaible today would weigh
> at least 4500lbs(2500 in
> > > batteries)
>
> I think you have not done the math quite
> right. A 5000 HP
> battery pack made of off-the-shelf A123 systems M1
> cells would weigh
> just under 2000 lbs. If we use the prototype A123
> Systems Ultra
> cells, (they exist, but in very small numbers right
> now) this would
> drop to something like 1000 lbs. A 7000 HP pack
> would weigh about
> 1400 lbs, leaving 1000 lbs for the motor(s),
> controller, and rolling
> chassis. Not at all impossible, if one's pockets are
> deep enough.
>
> Bill Dube'
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car
Finder tool.
http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, Jul 29, 2007 at 06:45:35PM -0400, Phelps wrote:
> Ok.. It is time for me to look at buying a controller..
>
> Like I have stated before I have a Motor that takes 30 volts at 300 amps,,
>
> However I am planing on using 36 volts and I guess at times that would bring
> the current up to 360 amps .
>
> It is a air craft starter engine. My car will weight no more than 1500
> pounds when done and that's with the batteries and all..
>
> What are my choices for controllers that would do a good job for this??
>
> I am also assuming that 36 volts will be ok when I use a controller?
>
I am more or less in the same bandwagon and plan to buy a 72volts Alltrax.
--
Eduardo K. | Darwin pone las reglas.
http://www.carfun.cl | Murphy, la oportunidad.
http://ev.nn.cl |
| Yo.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is GM Playing Games with the Volt?
http://www.plugsandcars.blogspot.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Although it's true, for now, that EVs aren't as quick as ICE cars,
there's some things you do have to put into account.
There are (probably) many, many thousands of people who make
modify/make cars or motorcycles for drag racing. And how many for EVs?
Just a rare handful.
There are lots of companies pouring millions into making high-power
engines and wringing out every last bit of efficiency and horsepower
out of the ICE. And how many companies are putting down the cash for
high-power batteries? Not that many.
And for how long have gasoline cars been participating in drag races?
I'm not sure when drag racing started, but it's been going on for
quite a while. And how long have electric cars been drag racing? About
15 years or so...
EVs, with that nearly flat toque line, and batteries that are always
getting better, EVs are bound to one day be a step ahead of ICE
performance.
On 7/29/07, keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If the electric racing world wanted to they could
> build their own drag strip with a catenary overhead or
> a third rail/ slot car strip down the center. Maybe
> even a tessla generator/reciver and then we would see
> electric racing times go way down. the top fueler drag
> racers will do anything to get down the 1/4 faster,
> none of which is practicle for street transition so
> electrics could play that game too then we might see
> some real competition.
>
> keith
> --- Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> > > As an example
> > > > a 7000hp top fuel dragster weighs about 2400lbs
> > a 5000hp electric dragster
> > > > with the 123 batteries avaible today would weigh
> > at least 4500lbs(2500 in
> > > > batteries)
> >
> > I think you have not done the math quite
> > right. A 5000 HP
> > battery pack made of off-the-shelf A123 systems M1
> > cells would weigh
> > just under 2000 lbs. If we use the prototype A123
> > Systems Ultra
> > cells, (they exist, but in very small numbers right
> > now) this would
> > drop to something like 1000 lbs. A 7000 HP pack
> > would weigh about
> > 1400 lbs, leaving 1000 lbs for the motor(s),
> > controller, and rolling
> > chassis. Not at all impossible, if one's pockets are
> > deep enough.
> >
> > Bill Dube'
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car
> Finder tool.
> http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Bill Dube wrote:
I have to agree with Jim on this one. The article gave a very balanced
account of the present state of EV drag racing in the context of ICE
drag racing.
And I have to disagree, big time. Comparing a street legal sedan to an
all-out funny car is not by any stretch of the imagination, balanced!
That's exactly what Mr. Clark did when he cited White Zombie's 11.4 ET
and then in the same line, said it was 6.4 seconds off the best top fuel
record...you call that balanced?
We aren't _the_ very fastest ....yet.
I nor anyone in our crew, nor any other team of EV racers have ever made
a claim like that.
It is a fact that the fastest EVs are not as fast as the fastest ICEs
on the drag strip at this time.
Who has ever said this? What we do say and what we do, is compare our
EV's performance to similar gas cars' performance...and this is
important...in the same racing class. I compare my street legal EV that
is driven to the track to other street legal gas cars driven to the
track, and I never, ever say we are faster than any gas car...ever. I do
point out when we are the quickest car at the track on a given night. I
also, to help non-car nut folks appreciate what our EV's performance is
like, often compare our car to factory available street cars. This is
valid and fun, as it raises quite a few eyebrows to learn that a
backyard converted electric car can waste a Porsche, Vette, or Ferrari
in the 1/4 mile drag!
>To argue against this is foolish.
To argue that our EV is quicker than 'any' other gas car is for sure,
foolish, because there will always be somebody quicker and faster. We
don't do that, and we never have. To argue against stupid remarks like
Mr. Clark's however, is smart, not foolish. It's smart because it
corrects misinformation that his bad writing implies...comparing a
street legal electric car's 1/4 mile performance to a several thousand
hp all-out funny car...now that, is foolish! It's also foolish 'not' to
speak up and correct misinformation when it presents itself. The
comparison of a street legal sedan, whether electric or gas powered, to
a $250,000 nitromethane burning funny car or nitromethane burning rail
dragster is misinformation if it implies to an uneducated reader that
the two are comparable...and again, that;'s exactly what Clark did.
To be insulted by this statement of fact is hubris.
You are muddying up the waters here. I was not insulted by the statement
of fact that you and your race-only drag bike are a few seconds off from
the very top dog nitromethane burning drag bike...that was a valid
comparison, because by your own yardstick, you're out to ultimately meet
and then exceed that nitromethane bike's potential...and for the record,
I and I'm sure all other EV fans are 100% behind you all the way, and
very proud of your accomplishments to date!
What I was offended by...and I made it quite clear, was his absolutely
stupid comparison of my car, a car anyone with a brain knows is racing
in a street legal regular car class, to one of the most radical machines
ever to run down a track, a nitromethane burning funny car or rail (he
also exhibited bad writing by not making which top fuel machine he was
comparing to, clear).
Here's the best way to make myself as clear as possible. If Mr. Clark
was trying to say that EVs are getting quicker, but are still a ways off
from the baddest of the bad nitromethane machines, he could have written
it this way, and I would not have anything to say:
In the most popular professional division, Top Fuel Racing, dragsters
with large rear wheels and narrow bodies reach speeds exceeding 330 m.p.h.
(530 km/h) in 4.6 seconds. Drivers are practically flattened against their
seats during their short ride, meeting more g-forces than astronauts
during a
space shuttle launch. No one in the world of racing EVs are challenging
this upper
end of racing machines at this moment, though with continued battery
development,
it's only a matter of time.
But electric drag racers are increasingly showing up at drag strips
across the country to show what they can do. White Zombie, an old
Datsun economy car converted to electric power is full street legal and
has run the quarter-mile in 11.46 seconds - that's quicker than
a 2007 505-horsepower Corvette ZO6, one of the quickest production
vehicles available to the general public.
Their vehicles are posting faster and faster times at amateur meets, but
the pure racing EVs have a ways to go before matching professional world
record times. The quickest quarter-mile time by an electric vehicle is the
KillaCycle's 8.16 seconds - that's 2.36 seconds off the nitromethane
world record for drag bikes set by Larry "Spiderman" McBride last year.
--------------------------------------
See, it's easy to be clear, easy to be fair, easy to not make an apples
to oranges comparison, as did Clark.
See Ya...John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> Is Nickel Metal Hydride cell technology restricted world-wide by a
>> company that has its stakes in oil????
>Only for a few more years, until the patent runs out.
Anyone know when that is?
Bill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Unfortunately, I have tried that Tenergy D cell, and it is crap.
I bought a bunch of Tenergy AA cells to make a NiMh battery for a friend's
mobility scooter. The 2600mAh cells tested at about 1900. It will be
interesting to see how they hold up.
I emailed the factory and their online store and got no response.
Bill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>of the less efficient types. But you could arrange things so pure buck
>(pack voltage always higher than motor voltage) or pure boost (for
>charging, where motor or AC line voltage is always less than pack
>voltage) was sufficient.
That's what I had in mind - in driving, say, pack voltage is 192
volts and bus voltage is 156 volts, so buck. When in regen, bus voltage
rises to maybe 170 volts, so boost into the battery pack at whatever
it takes to charge the batteries. That way you could discharge each
string fairly evenly, and charge them in the same way. So I guess
by buck/boost, the supply is in buck mode when driving, and in boost
mode during either battery charging or regeneration.....
BATT+ -C E --+--- inductor ------ BUS +
Q1 |
C
Q2
E
BATT- ------------+-------------------- BUS -
Where each IGBT (or MOSFET) contains its freewheeling diode too.
In motoring, buck is by Q1 = switch, Q2 = freewheel diode,
inductor = energy storage.
In charging/regen, boost is by Q2 = switch, Q1 = freewheel
diode. I didn't show the bus capacitors but those are essential.
Note that Q1 and Q2 are a standard 'half-bridge' so you could
just use pre-existing parts that already exist.
Then you parallel packs as you want provided the voltages are
somewhere close (for efficiency), and you have enough current
capacity in whatever you use to hold up the bus. If you have
enough battery strings and converters to support the full
motor current, then you only need caps on the bus, otherwise,
it's a hybrid pack with maybe some AGM's or that sort of
thing on the bus, as you mentioned. Possibly with smart
phasing of each converter on the bus, you can limit the
ripple currents on the caps?
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The ideal charge profile for the TS LiFePO4 chemistry is constant
current of .3C to 80% SOC, then constant 4.2V to full, according to TS.
I took delivery (Well, it wasn't exactly delivery, the air shipping
agents were a PITA - reverse engineer the acronym) of some 40Ah and 90Ah
LFP cells, and was impressed that the relaxed voltage was 3.31V for each
of 45 cells on arrival, no deviation to the 2nd decimal place. I was
looking to manifest a parallel "float level maintainer" (to buy storage
time until BMS) when I measured each cell again 10 days later. Still
3.31V for each one after 10 days, although TS says self discharge is
about 5% per month (or is that .5% ?).
Although that is a relief, I know I have to come up with a safe parallel
storage charger soon, and better yet, BMS/charge so they can be put on
some 2-wheelers.
Anyone who has already blazed this trail, advice appreciated (thanks
Jukka-I'm sure you have your hands full too). Otherwise, I'll see what
I can come up with and let you know how it works.
-S
-------- Original Message -------
Subject: RE: A123 chemistryrool
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Fri, July 27, 2007 8:38 pm
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
I had talked with them early, when they would talk to us normal people.
and Since then,via email, to the factory in china that claims to make
the cells for them until they get their own plant going and in boththis
conversations they have said Lithium-Iron-Phosphate.
But it is easier than this to check. Get out your voltmeter.
Lithium cobalt 3.6Vnominal 4.25Max charge
Lithium Iron Phosphate 3.2-3.4 3.7 max charge (Easy to tell)
Lithium-magenese 3.7-3.8 Nominal 4.2Max charge (ok, hard to tell
compared to cobalt)
http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-5A.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Look at the ALLTRAX 7245, that is what I'm running in
my 94' Eclipse. The voltage range actually has a
90vdc limit in it's programming, so I bumped my main
battery bank voltage up to 78vdc. I also power the
field of my aircraft generator with a separate 24volt
battery pack (12 volts didn't have enough torque,
36volts kept ripping the rubber motor mounts out and
ruined a CV joint, 24volts seems to give me enough
torque at inclines, and can keep the car running
highway speeds) , therefore leaving all the main pack
juice for the armature.
Look at it at: www.texomaev.com
--- Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 29, 2007 at 06:45:35PM -0400, Phelps
> wrote:
> > Ok.. It is time for me to look at buying a
> controller..
> >
> > Like I have stated before I have a Motor that
> takes 30 volts at 300 amps,,
> >
> > However I am planing on using 36 volts and I guess
> at times that would bring
> > the current up to 360 amps .
> >
> > It is a air craft starter engine. My car will
> weight no more than 1500
> > pounds when done and that's with the batteries and
> all..
> >
> > What are my choices for controllers that would do
> a good job for this??
> >
> > I am also assuming that 36 volts will be ok when I
> use a controller?
> >
>
> I am more or less in the same bandwagon and plan to
> buy a 72volts Alltrax.
>
>
> --
> Eduardo K. | Darwin pone las reglas.
> http://www.carfun.cl | Murphy, la oportunidad.
> http://ev.nn.cl |
> | Yo.
>
>
--- End Message ---
