Re: [SPAM] Re: Major revision to my Top-Level Ontology

creatures: WE APOLOGISE FOR THE INCONVENIENCE Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Addendum: Some further revisions since yesterday... I was almost there yesterday but not quite. The last of my confusions have cleared

Re: [SPAM] Re: Why Objective Values Exist

or encompass the experience of what it is like to be that process. NB: Old Chalmers ... --- He's not THAT old, surely! Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Aug 19, 12:26 am, Stathis Papaioannou [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote

Re: How would a computer know if it were conscious?

. But that is another storyline. Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ David Nyman wrote: On 26/06/07, *Mark Peaty* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: MP: Your second may shoot me if I waffle.. DN: No, he'll just tickle you until you

Re: How would a computer know if it were conscious?

which deals with it quite succinctly, but that is another story. Best of luck David Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ David, We have reached some understanding in the 'asifism' thread, and I would summarise that, tilted

Re: Re: How would a computer know if it were conscious?

I am practising how to deal with the jibes and stonewalling of someone who countenance only 'behavioural analysis' descriptions. I am happier recognising that most internal behaviours can be called 'representations' - it is much more succinct. Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED

Re: [SPAM] Re: Asifism

or Biblical principles [to name but two] to the exclusion of any of the four essential ingredients, is doomed eventually to poverty, strife, and all the miseries these evils bring. Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ Brent Meeker wrote: Mark

Re: [SPAM] Re: Asifism

CDES = Compassion, Democracy, Ethics, and Scientific method These are prerequisites for the survival of civilisation. Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ David Nyman wrote: On Jun 21, 8:03 pm, Mark Peaty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I always come

Re: [SPAM] Re: Asifism

. are they in a 'higher dimensional' space, do they interact in anyway apart from interpenetration, are they ontogenically related, do they have babies? Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ David Nyman wrote: On Jun 21, 8:03 pm, Mark Peaty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote

Re: [SPAM] Re: Asifism

with by the further application of the method, and so it will ever be. Hmm, I went on more than I intended here, but the issue is not trivial, and it is not going to go away. Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ Quentin Anciaux wrote: This is completely arbitrary

Re: Asifism

', psychology, etc, from his definition of science, but that is another story Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ Quentin Anciaux wrote: On Friday 22 June 2007 20:38:50 Mark Peaty wrote: History has not finished yet, and I am proposing that we try to ensure

Re: [SPAM] Re: Asifism

of its twin such that their temporal separation might be no more than the Planck time. Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ David Nyman wrote: On Jun 12, 2:01 pm, Bruno Marchal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If we take AR to be that which is self

Re: How would a computer know if it were conscious?

! That was much longer than expected, I hope you didn't miss all the good bits with your finger on the 'fast forward' button? :-) Regards Mark Peaty (Dilettante - still practising :-) [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ John Mikes wrote: Hi On 6/16/07, *Colin Hales* [EMAIL

Re: How would a computer know if it were conscious? - this looks best in fixed space font

my a/, b/, c/, look terrible in variable spaced font, they were prepared and sent in fixed font but the message I got back put them in variable spacing and so out of alignment. Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ Mark Peaty wrote: [Grin] I just

Re: Asifism

we think we are conscious. Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ Torgny Tholerus wrote: Mohsen Ravanbakhsh skrev: The subjective experience is just some sort of behaviour. You can make computers show the same sort of behavior, if the computers

Re: Asifism

is simply what it is like to be this reviewing process. Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 10/06/07, *Mark Peaty* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * But I agree also that you

Re: Asifism

sensory modality? For example: deaf-hearing, numb-sensing, proprio-non-ception? This would imply a zombie [without 'a life'] which survived by making apparently random guesses about everything yet getting significantly more than chance success in each modality. A scary thought! Regards Mark Peaty

Re: How would a computer know if it were conscious?

endures and changes over time: on the one hand genes of DNA and on the other hand memes embodied in behaviour patterns, the brain structures which mediate them, and the environmental changes [glyphs, paintings, structures, etc,] which stimulate and guide them. Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL

Re: Asifism

TT: ' What is the philosophical term for persons like me, that totally deny the existence of the consciousness?' MP: I think the word you are looking for is deluded. Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ Torgny Tholerus wrote: Bruno Marchal

Re: How would a computer know if it were conscious?

realise they will always need people to do most of the maintenance work and people realise that symbiosis with the silicon smart-alecks is a prerequisite for survival, things might actually settle down on this planet and the colonisation of the solar system can begin in earnest. Regards Mark

Re: [SPAM] Re: How would a computer know if it were conscious?

with others. Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jun 3, 9:20 pm, Stathis Papaioannou [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 03/06/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The third type of conscious mentioned above is synonymous

Re: An idea to resolve the 1st Person/3rd person division mystery - Coarse graining is the answer!?

of dimensions, seems to me to be a rather abstract fudge. Enormously useful of course, we couldn't make social appointments or launch space rockets without 'time', but aren't we just reifying a human construct when we do this? Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http

Re: An idea to resolve the 1st Person/3rd person division mystery - Coarse graining is the answer!?

, after much practice, the brain has been trained to virtually cease evoking representations. Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On May 5, 10:05 pm, Mark Peaty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: MG: 'There is no doubt

Re: Evidence for the simulation argument

of negative entropy in the cultural world. For what it's worth I think that such a creature will realise that ethics is part of the foundation of its world: a fundamental tool for the maximising of 'negative entropy'. Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty

Re: String theory and Cellular Automata

do and thus are not all interchangeable like atoms and molecules are [etc]. Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ John Mikes wrote: Mark, let me play with your postulate (plain English) vs your text YOU wrote. To be translated into plain language

Re: Statistical Measure, does it matter?

the universal dovetailer can ever be more real than Jack and his Beanstalk. Jack and his magic vegetable have been around for a couple of centuries now. The universal dovetailer may do likewise. We just need to keep in touch with the idea though that 'It Ain't Necessarily So!'. Regards Mark Peaty

Re: String theory and Cellular Automata

densely packed in the early universe. Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ Brent Meeker wrote: Mark Peaty wrote: Brent, how is this for whimsy: what are now called black holes, and apparently quite well verified [and totally not falsified

Re: String theory and Cellular Automata

of the bubble disintegrated, possibly in some sort of fractal manner. If this were all true, then what is 'out there' beyond the edge of our universe is basically the same as the singularity at the centre of each black hole. :-) Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http

Re: Janus [was Evidence for the simulation argument ]

fabrications humans have created in order to impose order on the world. It is conceivable that everything real is actually a process that can only ever be represented properly with 'quasi-numbers' that only ever exhibit/take fractional values. Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http

Re: Evidence for the simulation argument

, and in the sequels, the names of which I have forgotten at the moment. The author shows what could happen if Platonia started really getting out of hand. Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ Brent Meeker wrote: Mohsen Ravanbakhsh wrote: /All actual

Re: Evidence for the simulation argument - and Thanks and a dumb question.

wonderfully concentrated on 'what it is like to be' a piece of spaghetti, unable to see anything except *the destination*? Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 3/9/07, *Mark Peaty* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED

Re: [SPAM] Re: God and the plenitude (was:The Meaning of Life)

Tom, is it not a simple fact, surely, that *meaning*, for a creature with the wherewithal to worry about it, is fundamentally the recognition of relationships amongst the creatures and things perceived in the world, including oneself, and relating these to oneself? Regards Mark Peaty

Re: Evidence for the simulation argument - and Thanks and a dumb question.

than an expansion of the location, so to speak. In particular, why is it not feasible to consider the Big Bang and subsequent Inflationary epoch as being in effect a collapse? Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 3/8

Re: Evidence for the simulation argument - and Thanks to Russell and Stathis

: concentration itself would become the major problem even for a ghost! =-O Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 3/6/07, *Mark Peaty* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A human life must

Re: Evidence for the simulation argument

Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ Bruno Marchal wrote: Le 05-mars-07, à 15:03, Mark Peaty a écrit : Nobody here has yet explained in plain-English why we have entropy. Oh well, surely, in the Many Worlds, that's just one of the universes that can

Re: Evidence for the simulation argument

! :-) Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ Mohsen Ravanbakhsh wrote: I don't know if in the hypothesis of simulation, the conflict of Countable and Uncountable has been considered. When we're talking about a machine with an infinite power

Re: [SPAM] Re: Quick Quantum Question.

], and if they are nothing like our universe we have nothing to say. I guess my view is a reductionist anthropic enterprise. Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ 1Z wrote: On 2 Mar, 12:43, chris peck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have a question for people here who

Re: Evidence for the simulation argument

aren't you kind? It's like Terry Pratchett says: There is only one sin, and that is to treat another person like a thing. Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ Brent Meeker wrote: Mark Peaty wrote: snipped This is mixing Everett's relative state

Re: Believing in Divine Destiny is one of the pillars of faith, and, in accordance with this belief, everything in the universe is determined by God, the All-Mighty. While there are countless absolute

Dream on Brent ... Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ Brent Meeker wrote: Klortho wrote: The other thing I do is check to what extent a person's speech and writings support and affirm the four fundamental ingredients of civilisation

Re: [SPAM] Re: Believing in Divine Destiny is one of the pillars of faith, and, in accordance with this belief, everything in the universe is determined by God, the All-Mighty. While there are countle

the ability to journey out into the solar system and beyond, to be citizens of the galaxy, but without scientific method humans will die out on a devastated planet Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ Klortho wrote: The other thing I do

Re: [SPAM] Re: Believing in Divine Destiny is one of the pillars of faith, and, in accordance with this belief, everything in the universe is determined by God, the All-Mighty. While there are countle

method to show us how the natural world works and to show us deep insights into how the human brain and mind work has a moral authority at least equal to that of their 'holy' books. THIS is the real challenge of the 20 and 21 centuries. Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http

Re: Evidence for the simulation argument

Brent: ' Which scientists...ours of theirs?' MP: Ours. The situation is not static; they would have to KEEP responding to our scientists' unpredictable forays into basic science, unpredictable a-priori either to them or to us. Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http

Re: Evidence for the simulation argument

reach just about arbitrarily fine degrees of resolution. Or, which would be more the worry for 'emulators' who wished to remain invisible, the emulation would need to be able to be controlled to a finer resolution than scientists' contemporary measurement skills. Regards Mark Peaty CDES

Re: Searles' Fundamental Error

that the majority of mammals and birds are like this, reptiles maybe, fish also to various degrees. Worms and insects? I dunno. Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ Stathis Papaioannou wrote: snipped 1. If it behaved as if it were conscious *and* it did

Re: Searles' Fundamental Error

. I think Oliver Sachs's book The Man Who Mistook His Wife For a Hat gives many examples illustrating the point that all deficiencies in consciousness correlate strictly with lesions in the sufferer's brain. Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty

Re: Searles' Fundamental Error

. And there I ran out of steam! Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ Bruno Marchal wrote: Le 07-févr.-07, à 17:34, Mark Peaty a écrit : Bruno: 'Dont hesitate to ask why, I am sure few people have understand the whole point. Some are close to it, perhaps

Re: Searles' Fundamental Error

on this thread because Bruno has provided the biggest challenge to my, uhhh, maturing brain. I have no real hopes of discovering a/the 'killer' argument, apart from claiming that 'Comp' always begs the question. Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty

Re: Searles' Fundamental Error

do you mean by 'physical'? And next: what do you mean by 'exist'? These are very basic questions, and in our context here, 'dumb' questions for sure, but without some clarification on how people are using these words, I don't think I can go any further. Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL

Re: Searles' Fundamental Error

to be expanding away from me at great speed, so that every time I try to follow and respond to something, everything seems to have proliferated AND gone just that little bit further out of reach! Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ John Mikes wrote: Bruno

Re: Rép : The Meaning of Life

Bruno: 4) Mark Peaty wrote (to Brent): As I say, the essence of evil is the act of treating other persons as things. I so agree with you. And then, with Church thesis (less than comp, thus) you can understand the reason why even some (relative) machine and some (relative) numbers

Re: The Meaning of [your] Life

in their own right Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ Bruno Marchal wrote: Hi Mark, (To the other: I will read and comment the remaining posts after next wednesday; I am very busy). Le 08-janv.-07, à 18:31, Mark Peaty a écrit

Re: Evidence for the simulation argument

indeterminacy? Either way AIUI, the computational model will manipulate symbols denoting the real world physics and there is no guarantee that any such computing system could overcome the limits imposed by entropy and quantum indeterminacy. Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http

Re: Evil ?

to be capable of taking responsibility for its actions otherwise it is only the evil tool of an evil person. Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ Brent Meeker wrote: snip I think humans valuing knowledge is as fundamental as their valuing food

Re: The Meaning of [your] Life

times to times) that modern (post-godelian) mechanism is a sort of very powerful vaccine against a vast class of reductionist view of both human and machine' --- What does that mean? :-[ Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ Bruno

Re: The Meaning of Life

really take scientific method seriously? I rest my case - for the time being! :-) Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ Brent Meeker wrote: Mark Peaty wrote: SP: 'Getting back to the original question about teleportation experiments, are you saying

Re: The Meaning of Life

-alumni.bu.edu/~slehar/webstuff/bubw3/bubw3.html#compmech http://cns-alumni.bu.edu/%7Eslehar/webstuff/bubw3/bubw3.html#compmech]. I think that is enough for now! Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ ** http://www.reference.com/search?r=2q=Doona http

Re: The Meaning of Life

person from day to day, indeed from moment to moment, is what it is like to be a description of a person, although I would say that the qualia aspect is actually what it is like to be the updating of the description. It was ever thus. Regards, Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED

Re: The Meaning of [your] Life

in question would be conscious. Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ Brent Meeker wrote: Mark Peaty wrote: Bruno, Stathis, Brent, Peter,Brent, Tom, Hal and others, I have to be very impertinent here and try to draw your attention to something you

Re: The Meaning of Life

Parfit's copier [/Reasons and Persons/ Ch 10] was 'usually' producing complete and accurate copies, because one of his scenarios addresses what would happen if there was a fault in the transmission. Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ Stathis

Re: The Meaning of Life

is a league of its own, but just difficulty remembering certain things. I am just about to post another message which might stir some angst [or not in which case 'ho hum'], so I leave this here. Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ Brent Meeker wrote

Re: The Meaning of [your] Life

forward. I hope no one is offended by this. Is they are, sorry! But time returns for no one and you do not have for ever, just all the time there is - for you. That is what entropy is about. Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ See down below for: 10

Re: The Meaning of Life - COMP and Circumstance

Thanks for this Peter: I am still chewing on this, with a view to ultimate digestion. I do get a certain kind of Angels and pinheads impression about some of it though. Hopefully that is just an illusion! :-) Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty

Re: The Meaning of Life

implicitly at other times as the components of structural particularity in synapses, dendrite length and location, etc. which came about when the constructs came into existence in the brain in question. Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ Stathis

Re: The Meaning of Life

us not into temptation, and deliver us from hubris, for Thine is the location, the duration and the entropy, for at least the next 15 billion years and maybe for eternity, Amen! Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ PS: Qualia: part of 'what it is like

Re: The Meaning of Life

it or not. I think it is bigger than me, in fact much much bigger! SP: 'What if we use the word 'cause' rather than supervenience?' MP: I prefer the word 'is'. It seems to me to be a lot simpler. Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ Stathis Papaioannou

Re: The Meaning of Life

For my benefit, could you flesh that out in plain English please? Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ 1Z wrote: Mark Peaty wrote: SP: 'using the term comp as short for computationalism as something picked up from Bruno. On the face

Re: The Meaning of Life

! :-) Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Mark Peaty writes: SP: ' In the end, what is right is an irreducible personal belief, which you can try to change by appeal to emotions or by example, but not by appeal

Re: The Meaning of Life

TO BE the updating of such a model of self in the world is something we will probably have to wait awhile to be told :-) Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Bruno Marchal writes: Le 31-déc.-06, à 04:59, Stathis Papaioannou

Re: 'reason' and ethics; was computer pain

ourselves to be. That was longer than I expected but hopefully not too verbose. Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Mark, Let me make it clear at this late point in the debate that, just because I don't believe there is any

Re: 'reason' and ethics; was computer pain

that in your pipes all you armchair philosophers!' Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Mark Peaty writes: Sorry to be so slow at responding here but life [domestic], the universe and everything else right now is competing

Re: 'reason' and ethics; was computer pain

of the world, an objective assertion that 'they are not us and we are not them'. This contains within it also a diminution of self, something that may not be recognised to start with and perhaps never understood until it is too late. Regards Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http

Re: computer pain

of the future This feels incomplete but it needs to be sent. Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Brent meeker writes: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Brent meeker writes: Evolution explains why we have good and bad

Re: computer pain

entropy - even if it is only grasping where crumbs and fluff balls come from - are what allow us to know that we are NOT in some kind of computer generated matrix. We live in a real, open universe that exists independently of each of us but yet is incomplete without us. Regards Mark Peaty CDES

Re: The Totally Blind Zombie Homunculus Room

the incorporation of novelty into our sets of tested beliefs. This is how I relate to your assertion that the ability to do science is the true indicator of consciousness. Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ Colin Geoffrey Hales wrote: This discussion