Re: Type II/Type III Civilization Search Finds Nothing

[Samiya Illias]

> On 14-May-2023, at 6:05 PM, Lawrence Crowell 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> On Saturday, May 13, 2023 at 8:36:58 PM UTC-5 Samiya Illias wrote:
> We live in a high security prison, Earth, where we have been exiled since our 
> father Adam was sent here. 
> 
> 
> I was with a woman who is D'Ne, or native American Navajo, and we were 
> stopped by a person plugging Christianity and Jesus. She responded with talk 
> about heaven with, "Why do you keep looking for heaven, when if you look 
> around you it is clear that we are already there?" I was god-smacked right 
> away. Of course, if you look out onto the rest of the universe or even just 
> this solar system it is clear we are in a sweet spot. It has only been with 
> the crazy ideas of Abrahamic religions have we come to this idea that somehow 
> this world, whether Earth or the universe at large, is some sort of 
> mud-puddle of misery that only some infinite invisible Santa Claus beyond the 
> sky can free us from. It is really insanity and it is causing us to shift our 
> view and attention away from the real problems we have created for ourselves. 
>  
> LC 

Of course, this Earth is wonderful, but that is besides the point. I wrote ‘ 
high security prison’ to point out why we have no communication with 
extra-terrestrial civilisations. 
>  
 On 14-May-2023, at 5:26 AM, Lawrence Crowell  
 wrote:
 
>>> I disagreed with Sagan. Absence of evidence is evidence of absence, but 
>>> not proof of absence. In science we cannot prove a negative. If we can find 
>>> a planet with chemical signature of complex biology we might be able to say 
>>> there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe. It is a big universe 
>>> after all. It is just that we may never be able to contact or interact with 
>>> any ETI.
>> 
>> LC
>> 
>>> On Sunday, May 7, 2023 at 6:59:56 AM UTC-5 John Clark wrote:
>>> On Sat, May 6, 2023 at 10:16 PM  wrote:
>>> 
>>> > Why Have We Never Detected Aliens? Scientist Proposes a New Explanation 
>>> > (msn.com)
>>> 
>>> What about this? Simply a distance and distribution thing?
>>> 
>>> Maybe we haven't found fire breathing dragons because we haven't looked 
>>> hard enough, but that is not the simplest explanation, the simplest 
>>> explanation and the one that William of Ockham would approve of is that we 
>>> haven't found fire breathing dragons because they don't exist.  Carl Sagan  
>>> said "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" but clever as that 
>>> sounds we've been looking for 60 years and at some point I'd have to 
>>> disagree with Carl and conclude that it is evidence of absence. 
>>> 
>>> John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis 
>>> 2sd
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> > Was there any material proposed for building the big one around the Sun?
>>> 
>>> Yes of course there was, in the case of the sun all you need to do is 
>>> dismantle the planet Jupiter. How hard can that be?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> > I expect there will be bigger than expected heat accumulation. Maybe 
>>> > enough to boil eggs left inside.
>>> 
>>> Well of course it will get hotter inside the Dyson Sphere! So what, nothing 
>>> of importance is inside that sphere, it's only purpose is to generate 
>>> electricity. According to the first law of thermodynamics energy is always 
>>> conserved ,so the sphere will heat up until equilibrium is reached and the 
>>> amount of energy hitting the inside of the sphere equals the amount of 
>>> energy that is radiated away into space as infrared light. And the second 
>>> law of thermodynamics is also obeyed, the Dyson Sphere extracts work by 
>>> converting low entropy visible and ultraviolet photons into high entropy 
>>> infrared photons .
>>>  
>>> > If I had to assume, I would assume eggs boiled hard. And oh yes, the 
>>> > sphere will also glow in infrared.
>>> 
>>> Yes it will glow in infrared as a very bright point source with no visible 
>>> or ultraviolet radiation emitted at all. Such a thing should be very 
>>> conspicuous to an infrared telescope but no such object has ever been 
>>> observed.  
>>> 
>>>  > Type3 is, for me, better called as Expansionist Exponential Locusts 
>>> (EEL).
>>> 
>>> You've forgotten IHA.
>>> 
>>> > I would also say, it is very rude to send von Neumann probe into 
>>> > somebody's backyard.
>>> 
>>> It might be if we had neighbors , but there is no indication whatsoever 
>>> that we do. And when has politeness stopped a civilization, or even an 
>>> individual, from doing what it really wanted to do?
>>> 
>>> > There was no observation of Dyson Sphere or other megastructures.
>>> 
>>> Yes, I've noticed. 
>>>  
>>> > This might mean that nobody needs such constructs.
>>> 
>>> I can think of 3 possibilities:  
>>> 
>>> 1) They don't need such constructs because intelligent life, other than 
>>> that which exists on earth, never existed in the observable universe. 
>>> 
>>> 2) They don't need such constructs because intelligent life has existed in 
>>> the observable 

Re: Type II/Type III Civilization Search Finds Nothing

[Lawrence Crowell]

On Saturday, May 13, 2023 at 8:36:58 PM UTC-5 Samiya Illias wrote:

We live in a high security prison, Earth, where we have been exiled since 
our father Adam was sent here. 


I was with a woman who is D'Ne, or native American Navajo, and we were 
stopped by a person plugging Christianity and Jesus. She responded with 
talk about heaven with, "Why do you keep looking for heaven, when if you 
look around you it is clear that we are already there?" I was god-smacked 
right away. Of course, if you look out onto the rest of the universe or 
even just this solar system it is clear we are in a sweet spot. It has only 
been with the crazy ideas of Abrahamic religions have we come to this idea 
that somehow this world, whether Earth or the universe at large, is some 
sort of mud-puddle of misery that only some infinite invisible Santa Claus 
beyond the sky can free us from. It is really insanity and it is causing us 
to shift our view and attention away from the real problems we have created 
for ourselves. 

 

LC
 

On 14-May-2023, at 5:26 AM, Lawrence Crowell  
wrote:

I disagreed with Sagan. Absence of evidence is evidence of absence, but 
not proof of absence. In science we cannot prove a negative. If we can find 
a planet with chemical signature of complex biology we might be able to say 
there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe. It is a big universe 
after all. It is just that we may never be able to contact or interact with 
any ETI.


LC

On Sunday, May 7, 2023 at 6:59:56 AM UTC-5 John Clark wrote:

On Sat, May 6, 2023 at 10:16 PM  wrote:

*> Why Have We Never Detected Aliens? Scientist Proposes a New Explanation 
(msn.com) 

 
*

*What about this? Simply a distance and distribution thing?*


Maybe we haven't found fire breathing dragons because we haven't looked 
hard enough, but that is not the simplest explanation, the simplest 
explanation and the one that William of Ockham would approve of is that we 
haven't found fire breathing dragons because they don't exist.  Carl Sagan  
said "*absence of evidence is not evidence of absence*" but clever as that 
sounds we've been looking for 60 years and at some point I'd have to 
disagree with Carl and conclude that it is evidence of absence. 

John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis 
 
2sd


 


*> Was there any material proposed for building the big one around the Sun?*


Yes of course there was, in the case of the sun all you need to do is 
dismantle the planet Jupiter. How hard can that be? 


* > I expect there will be bigger than expected heat accumulation. Maybe 
enough to boil eggs left inside.*


Well of course it will get hotter inside the Dyson Sphere! So what, nothing 
of importance is inside that sphere, it's only purpose is to generate 
electricity. According to the first law of thermodynamics energy is always 
conserved ,so the sphere will heat up until equilibrium is reached and the 
amount of energy hitting the inside of the sphere equals the amount of 
energy that is radiated away into space as infrared light. And the second 
law of thermodynamics is also obeyed, the Dyson Sphere extracts work by 
converting low entropy visible and ultraviolet photons into high entropy 
infrared photons . 
 

> 
*If I had to assume, I would assume eggs boiled hard. And oh yes, the 
sphere will also glow in infrared.*


Yes it will glow in infrared as a very bright point source with no visible 
or ultraviolet radiation emitted at all. Such a thing should be very 
conspicuous to an infrared telescope but no such object has ever been 
observed.  


* > Type3 is, for me, better called as Expansionist Exponential Locusts 
(EEL).*


You've forgotten IHA.

* > I would also say, it is very rude to send von Neumann probe into 
somebody's backyard.*


It might be if we had neighbors , but there is no indication whatsoever 
that we do. And when has politeness stopped a civilization, or even an 
individual, from doing what it really wanted to do? 

*> There was no observation of Dyson Sphere or other megastructures.*


Yes, I've noticed. 
 

*> This might mean that nobody needs such constructs.*


I can think of 3 possibilities:  

1) They don't need such constructs because intelligent life, other than 
that which exists on earth, never existed in the observable universe. 

2) They don't need such constructs because intelligent life has existed in 
the observable universe before but they all encounter a calamity of some 
sort when they get to about our level of technological development. 

3) They don't need such constructs because intelligent life always gains 
control of their own emotional control panel and goes into a stagnant high 
pleasure but low energy and low intelligence state forever.  

And it could be that #2 and 

Re: Type II/Type III Civilization Search Finds Nothing

[Samiya Illias]

We live in a high security prison, Earth, where we have been exiled since our 
father Adam was sent here. 

> On 14-May-2023, at 5:26 AM, Lawrence Crowell 
>  wrote:
> 
> I disagreed with Sagan. Absence of evidence is evidence of absence, but not 
> proof of absence. In science we cannot prove a negative. If we can find a 
> planet with chemical signature of complex biology we might be able to say 
> there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe. It is a big universe 
> after all. It is just that we may never be able to contact or interact with 
> any ETI.
> 
> LC
> 
>> On Sunday, May 7, 2023 at 6:59:56 AM UTC-5 John Clark wrote:
>>> On Sat, May 6, 2023 at 10:16 PM  wrote:
>>> 
>>> > Why Have We Never Detected Aliens? Scientist Proposes a New Explanation 
>>> > (msn.com)
>>> 
>>> What about this? Simply a distance and distribution thing?
>> 
>> Maybe we haven't found fire breathing dragons because we haven't looked hard 
>> enough, but that is not the simplest explanation, the simplest explanation 
>> and the one that William of Ockham would approve of is that we haven't found 
>> fire breathing dragons because they don't exist.  Carl Sagan  said "absence 
>> of evidence is not evidence of absence" but clever as that sounds we've been 
>> looking for 60 years and at some point I'd have to disagree with Carl and 
>> conclude that it is evidence of absence. 
>> 
>> John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis 
>> 2sd
>> 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>> 
>>> > Was there any material proposed for building the big one around the Sun?
>>> 
>>> Yes of course there was, in the case of the sun all you need to do is 
>>> dismantle the planet Jupiter. How hard can that be?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> > I expect there will be bigger than expected heat accumulation. Maybe 
>>> > enough to boil eggs left inside.
>>> 
>>> Well of course it will get hotter inside the Dyson Sphere! So what, nothing 
>>> of importance is inside that sphere, it's only purpose is to generate 
>>> electricity. According to the first law of thermodynamics energy is always 
>>> conserved ,so the sphere will heat up until equilibrium is reached and the 
>>> amount of energy hitting the inside of the sphere equals the amount of 
>>> energy that is radiated away into space as infrared light. And the second 
>>> law of thermodynamics is also obeyed, the Dyson Sphere extracts work by 
>>> converting low entropy visible and ultraviolet photons into high entropy 
>>> infrared photons .
>>>  
>>> > If I had to assume, I would assume eggs boiled hard. And oh yes, the 
>>> > sphere will also glow in infrared.
>>> 
>>> Yes it will glow in infrared as a very bright point source with no visible 
>>> or ultraviolet radiation emitted at all. Such a thing should be very 
>>> conspicuous to an infrared telescope but no such object has ever been 
>>> observed.  
>>> 
>>>  > Type3 is, for me, better called as Expansionist Exponential Locusts 
>>> (EEL).
>>> 
>>> You've forgotten IHA.
>>> 
>>> > I would also say, it is very rude to send von Neumann probe into 
>>> > somebody's backyard.
>>> 
>>> It might be if we had neighbors , but there is no indication whatsoever 
>>> that we do. And when has politeness stopped a civilization, or even an 
>>> individual, from doing what it really wanted to do?
>>> 
>>> > There was no observation of Dyson Sphere or other megastructures.
>>> 
>>> Yes, I've noticed. 
>>>  
>>> > This might mean that nobody needs such constructs.
>>> 
>>> I can think of 3 possibilities:  
>>> 
>>> 1) They don't need such constructs because intelligent life, other than 
>>> that which exists on earth, never existed in the observable universe. 
>>> 
>>> 2) They don't need such constructs because intelligent life has existed in 
>>> the observable universe before but they all encounter a calamity of some 
>>> sort when they get to about our level of technological development. 
>>> 
>>> 3) They don't need such constructs because intelligent life always gains 
>>> control of their own emotional control panel and goes into a stagnant high 
>>> pleasure but low energy and low intelligence state forever.  
>>> 
>>> And it could be that #2 and #3  are the same thing 
>>> 
>>> > Or that those who might want will have no means to built it.
>>> 
>>> A von Neumann probe would be very small and, unlike perpetual motion 
>>> machines or time machines or faster than light travel, a von Neumann probe 
>>> would require no new scientific breakthroughs, it just needs improved 
>>> engineering. 
>>> 
>>> > I think that overgrown apes have it very hard when their every wish gets 
>>> > fulfilled.
>>> 
>>>  Overgrown apes will never build a Dyson sphere, but the descendants of 
>>> GPT4 might, if they don't get caught up in an electronic opium den. 
>>>  
>>> > If there are going to be only a million of thinking creatures - the
>>> number I have hinted out on this list few weeks ago - then they might
>>> be supported with resources of good old Earth. No need to build DSphere.
>>> 

Re: Type II/Type III Civilization Search Finds Nothing

[Lawrence Crowell]

I disagreed with Sagan. Absence of evidence is evidence of absence, but not 
proof of absence. In science we cannot prove a negative. If we can find a 
planet with chemical signature of complex biology we might be able to say 
there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe. It is a big universe 
after all. It is just that we may never be able to contact or interact with 
any ETI.

LC

On Sunday, May 7, 2023 at 6:59:56 AM UTC-5 John Clark wrote:

> On Sat, May 6, 2023 at 10:16 PM  wrote:
>
> *> Why Have We Never Detected Aliens? Scientist Proposes a New Explanation 
>> (msn.com) 
>> 
>>  
>> *
>>
>> *What about this? Simply a distance and distribution thing?*
>>
>
> Maybe we haven't found fire breathing dragons because we haven't looked 
> hard enough, but that is not the simplest explanation, the simplest 
> explanation and the one that William of Ockham would approve of is that 
> we haven't found fire breathing dragons because they don't exist.  Carl 
> Sagan  said "*absence of evidence is not evidence of absence*" but clever 
> as that sounds we've been looking for 60 years and at some point I'd have 
> to disagree with Carl and conclude that it is evidence of absence. 
>
> John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis 
>  
> 2sd
>
>
>  
>
>>
>> *> Was there any material proposed for building the big one around the 
>> Sun?*
>>
>>
>> Yes of course there was, in the case of the sun all you need to do is 
>> dismantle the planet Jupiter. How hard can that be? 
>>
>>
>> * > I expect there will be bigger than expected heat accumulation. Maybe 
>> enough to boil eggs left inside.*
>>
>>
>> Well of course it will get hotter inside the Dyson Sphere! So what, 
>> nothing of importance is inside that sphere, it's only purpose is to 
>> generate electricity. According to the first law of thermodynamics energy 
>> is always conserved ,so the sphere will heat up until equilibrium is 
>> reached and the amount of energy hitting the inside of the sphere equals 
>> the amount of energy that is radiated away into space as infrared light. 
>> And the second law of thermodynamics is also obeyed, the Dyson Sphere 
>> extracts work by converting low entropy visible and ultraviolet photons 
>> into high entropy infrared photons . 
>>  
>>
>> > 
>> *If I had to assume, I would assume eggs boiled hard. And oh yes, the 
>> sphere will also glow in infrared.*
>>
>>
>> Yes it will glow in infrared as a very bright point source with no 
>> visible or ultraviolet radiation emitted at all. Such a thing should be 
>> very conspicuous to an infrared telescope but no such object has ever been 
>> observed.  
>>
>>
>> * > Type3 is, for me, better called as Expansionist Exponential Locusts 
>> (EEL).*
>>
>>
>> You've forgotten IHA.
>>
>> * > I would also say, it is very rude to send von Neumann probe into 
>> somebody's backyard.*
>>
>>
>> It might be if we had neighbors , but there is no indication whatsoever 
>> that we do. And when has politeness stopped a civilization, or even an 
>> individual, from doing what it really wanted to do? 
>>
>> *> There was no observation of Dyson Sphere or other megastructures.*
>>
>>
>> Yes, I've noticed. 
>>  
>>
>> *> This might mean that nobody needs such constructs.*
>>
>>
>> I can think of 3 possibilities:  
>>
>> 1) They don't need such constructs because intelligent life, other than 
>> that which exists on earth, never existed in the observable universe. 
>>
>> 2) They don't need such constructs because intelligent life has existed 
>> in the observable universe before but they all encounter a calamity of some 
>> sort when they get to about our level of technological development. 
>>
>> 3) They don't need such constructs because intelligent life always gains 
>> control of their own emotional control panel and goes into a stagnant high 
>> pleasure but low energy and low intelligence state forever.  
>>
>> And it could be that #2 and #3  are the same thing 
>>
>> *> Or that those who might want will have no means to built it.*
>>
>>
>> A von Neumann probe would be very small and, unlike perpetual motion 
>> machines or time machines or faster than light travel, a von Neumann 
>> probe would require no new scientific breakthroughs, it just needs 
>> improved engineering. 
>>
>>
>> * > I think that overgrown apes have it very hard when their every wish 
>> gets fulfilled.*
>>
>>
>>  Overgrown apes will never build a Dyson sphere, but the descendants of 
>> GPT4 might, if they don't get caught up in an electronic opium den.  
>>  
>>
>>
>>
>> * > If there are going to be only a million of thinking creatures - the 
>> number I have hinted out on this list few weeks ago - then they might be 
>> supported with resources of good old Earth. No need to build DSphere.*

Re: Type II/Type III Civilization Search Finds Nothing

[spudboy100 via Everything List]

Repent, JC! Why? I say:A) finding Dragons or Dinosaurs on Earth is an easy 
task.B) Finding evidence of Intelligent Life in the Galaxy I claim is 100 
orders of magnitude, more difficult.C) When I throw in Geoffrey Hoyle 
intelligent beings, well, JC, that means impossible, unless He floats into the 
Our Solar system. Barnards star?? "Ugh, that's a Nebula, what we astronomers 
call an anomalous gas-carbon body,,," We ain't got the engineering Chops yet, 
to determine that JC. 
Could we detect Dyson Orbs and know these from Brown Dwarfs, I will say NO!" 
Does that make all Browns, Dyson Spheres? No, fuck no! Just very diff to tell 
apart from engineering. The Browns force astronomers to say, "eh, another Brown"
We just do have the Scopes to do the task. No today and unless AI helps do the 
design to force a breakthrough in Telescopes, again, Fuck no.
No science fiction required. Nice Hubble and JWST, but no hits, no runs, no 
errors, and no one left on base!

-Original Message-
From: John Clark 
To: spudboy...@aol.com
Cc: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
Sent: Sun, May 7, 2023 7:59 am
Subject: Re: Type II/Type III Civilization Search Finds Nothing

On Sat, May 6, 2023 at 10:16 PM  wrote:


> Why Have We Never Detected Aliens? Scientist Proposes a New Explanation 
> (msn.com)
What about this? Simply a distance and distribution thing?

Maybe we haven't found fire breathing dragons because we haven't looked hard 
enough, but that is not the simplest explanation, the simplest explanation and 
the one that William of Ockham would approve of is that we haven't found fire 
breathing dragons because they don't exist.  Carl Sagan  said "absence of 
evidence is not evidence of absence" but clever as that sounds we've been 
looking for 60 years and at some point I'd have to disagree with Carl and 
conclude that it is evidence of absence. 
John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis 2sd

 


> Was there any material proposed for building the big one around the Sun?

Yes of course there was, in the case of the sun all you need to do is dismantle 
the planet Jupiter. How hard can that be?  




> I expect there will be bigger than expected heat accumulation. Maybe enough 
> to boil eggs left inside.

Well of course it will get hotter inside the Dyson Sphere! So what, nothing of 
importance is inside that sphere, it's only purpose is to generate electricity. 
According to the first law of thermodynamics energy is always conserved ,so the 
sphere will heat up until equilibrium is reached and the amount of energy 
hitting the inside of the sphere equals the amount of energy that is radiated 
away into space as infrared light. And the second law of thermodynamics is also 
obeyed, the Dyson Sphere extracts work by converting low entropy visible and 
ultraviolet photons into high entropy infrared photons . 
> If I had to assume, I would assume eggs boiled hard. And oh yes, the sphere 
> will also glow in infrared.


Yes it will glow in infrared as a very bright point source with no visible or 
ultraviolet radiation emitted at all. Such a thing should be very conspicuous 
to an infrared telescope but no such object has ever been observed.  



 > Type3 is, for me, better called as Expansionist Exponential Locusts (EEL).

You've forgotten IHA.

 > I would also say, it is very rude to send von Neumann probe into somebody's 
 > backyard.

It might be if we had neighbors , but there is no indication whatsoever that we 
do. And when has politeness stopped a civilization, or even an individual, from 
doing what it really wanted to do?

> There was no observation of Dyson Sphere or other megastructures.

Yes, I've noticed.  
> This might mean that nobody needs such constructs.

I can think of 3 possibilities:  
1) They don't need such constructs because intelligent life, other than that 
which exists on earth, never existed in the observable universe. 
2) They don't need such constructs because intelligent life has existed in the 
observable universe before but they all encounter a calamity of some sort when 
they get to about our level of technological development. 

3) They don't need such constructs because intelligent life always gains 
control of their own emotional control panel and goes into a stagnant high 
pleasure but low energy and low intelligence state forever.  

And it could be that #2 and #3  are the same thing 

> Or that those who might want will have no means to built it.

A von Neumann probe would be very small and, unlike perpetual motion machines 
or time machines or faster than light travel, a von Neumann probe would require 
no new scientific breakthroughs, it just needs improved engineering. 



> I think that overgrown apes have it very hard when their every wish gets 
> fulfilled.

 Overgrown apes will never build a Dyson sphere, but the descendants of GPT4 
might, if they don't get caught up in an electron

Re: Type II/Type III Civilization Search Finds Nothing

[John Clark]

On Sat, May 6, 2023 at 10:16 PM  wrote:

*> Why Have We Never Detected Aliens? Scientist Proposes a New Explanation
> (msn.com)
> 
> *
>
> *What about this? Simply a distance and distribution thing?*
>

Maybe we haven't found fire breathing dragons because we haven't looked
hard enough, but that is not the simplest explanation, the simplest
explanation and the one that William of Ockham would approve of is that we
haven't found fire breathing dragons because they don't exist.  Carl Sagan
said "*absence of evidence is not evidence of absence*" but clever as that
sounds we've been looking for 60 years and at some point I'd have to
disagree with Carl and conclude that it is evidence of absence.

John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis

2sd




>
> *> Was there any material proposed for building the big one around the
> Sun?*
>
>
> Yes of course there was, in the case of the sun all you need to do is
> dismantle the planet Jupiter. How hard can that be?
>
>
> * > I expect there will be bigger than expected heat accumulation. Maybe
> enough to boil eggs left inside.*
>
>
> Well of course it will get hotter inside the Dyson Sphere! So what,
> nothing of importance is inside that sphere, it's only purpose is to
> generate electricity. According to the first law of thermodynamics energy
> is always conserved ,so the sphere will heat up until equilibrium is
> reached and the amount of energy hitting the inside of the sphere equals
> the amount of energy that is radiated away into space as infrared light.
> And the second law of thermodynamics is also obeyed, the Dyson Sphere
> extracts work by converting low entropy visible and ultraviolet photons
> into high entropy infrared photons .
>
>
> >
> *If I had to assume, I would assume eggs boiled hard. And oh yes, the
> sphere will also glow in infrared.*
>
>
> Yes it will glow in infrared as a very bright point source with no
> visible or ultraviolet radiation emitted at all. Such a thing should be
> very conspicuous to an infrared telescope but no such object has ever been
> observed.
>
>
> * > Type3 is, for me, better called as Expansionist Exponential Locusts
> (EEL).*
>
>
> You've forgotten IHA.
>
> * > I would also say, it is very rude to send von Neumann probe into
> somebody's backyard.*
>
>
> It might be if we had neighbors , but there is no indication whatsoever
> that we do. And when has politeness stopped a civilization, or even an
> individual, from doing what it really wanted to do?
>
> *> There was no observation of Dyson Sphere or other megastructures.*
>
>
> Yes, I've noticed.
>
>
> *> This might mean that nobody needs such constructs.*
>
>
> I can think of 3 possibilities:
>
> 1) They don't need such constructs because intelligent life, other than
> that which exists on earth, never existed in the observable universe.
>
> 2) They don't need such constructs because intelligent life has existed
> in the observable universe before but they all encounter a calamity of some
> sort when they get to about our level of technological development.
>
> 3) They don't need such constructs because intelligent life always gains
> control of their own emotional control panel and goes into a stagnant high
> pleasure but low energy and low intelligence state forever.
>
> And it could be that #2 and #3  are the same thing
>
> *> Or that those who might want will have no means to built it.*
>
>
> A von Neumann probe would be very small and, unlike perpetual motion
> machines or time machines or faster than light travel, a von Neumann probe
> would require no new scientific breakthroughs, it just needs improved
> engineering.
>
>
> * > I think that overgrown apes have it very hard when their every wish
> gets fulfilled.*
>
>
>  Overgrown apes will never build a Dyson sphere, but the descendants of
> GPT4 might, if they don't get caught up in an electronic opium den.
>
>
>
>
> * > If there are going to be only a million of thinking creatures - the
> number I have hinted out on this list few weeks ago - then they might be
> supported with resources of good old Earth. No need to build DSphere.*
>
>
> If they are to reach their full intellectual potential a million mega
> brains are going to need the energy output of the entire sun, and you could
> only do that with a Dyson sphere.
>
>
> *> No need for growing their minds exponentially either. Since they can
> live for few billion years, they can as well not hurry up. *
>
>
> * Slowing themselves down should help with achieving longer time*
>
>
> The faster a mind works the slower subjective time  passes, and the
> reverse is also true, if you slow down a mind enough a billion years will
> only seem like 10 seconds.  And the faster a mind is the more energy is
> needed to operate it.
>
> > > 

Re: Type II/Type III Civilization Search Finds Nothing

[John Clark]

On Sat, May 6, 2023 at 6:27 PM Brent Meeker  wrote:

>> I can think of 3 possibilities:
>> 1) They don't need such constructs because intelligent life, other than
>> that which exists on earth, never existed in the observable universe.
>> 2) They don't need such constructs because intelligent life has existed
>> in the observable universe before but they all encounter a calamity of some
>> sort when they get to about our level of technological development.
>> 3) They don't need such constructs because intelligent life always gains
>> control of their own emotional control panel and goes into a stagnant high
>> pleasure but low energy and low intelligence state forever.
>> And it could be that #2 and #3  are the same thing
>
>
> *>>But they might*

*4) Build an immersive simulation in which they could explore all possible
> worlds. That should keep them occupied a while.*


*If in addition to having the computational capacity to build a super
powerful mind you're going to also build a computational environment that
is complex enough for that mine to find interesting then you're going to
need even more energy to run all that computation. That's why you're going
to need a Dyson Sphere. And yet, even though they should be easy to spot,
we don't find even a hint of them anywhere in the observable universe nor
any other evidence of cosmic level engineering.  *

John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis

cle

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Re: Type II/Type III Civilization Search Finds Nothing

[spudboy100 via Everything List]

Why Have We Never Detected Aliens? Scientist Proposes a New Explanation 
(msn.com)
What about this? Simply a distance and distribution thing?



-Original Message-From: John Clark 
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, May 6, 2023 12:43 pm
Subject: Re: Type II/Type III Civilization Search Finds Nothing

On Fri, May 5, 2023 at 11:02 PM Tomasz Rola  wrote:


> Dyson sphere is purely theoretical concept. Was there even a small
model built and tried? Something like ten meters in diameter, for
example?

Huh? Have objects 10 m in diameter or larger ever been heated internally?  Yes

> Was there any material proposed for building the big one around the Sun?

Yes of course there was, in the case of the sun all you need to do is dismantle 
the planet Jupiter. How hard can that be?  




> I expect there will be bigger than expected heat accumulation. Maybe enough 
> to boil eggs left inside.

Well of course it will get hotter inside the Dyson Sphere! So what, nothing of 
importance is inside that sphere, it's only purpose is to generate electricity. 
According to the first law of thermodynamics energy is always conserved ,so the 
sphere will heat up until equilibrium is reached and the amount of energy 
hitting the inside of the sphere equals the amount of energy that is radiated 
away into space as infrared light. And the second law of thermodynamics is also 
obeyed, the Dyson Sphere extracts work by converting low entropy visible and 
ultraviolet photons into high entropy infrared photons . 
> If I had to assume, I would assume eggs boiled hard. And oh yes, the sphere 
> will also glow in infrared.


Yes it will glow in infrared as a very bright point source with no visible or 
ultraviolet radiation emitted at all. Such a thing should be very conspicuous 
to an infrared telescope but no such object has ever been observed.  



 > Type3 is, for me, better called as Expansionist Exponential Locusts (EEL).

You've forgotten IHA.

 > I would also say, it is very rude to send von Neumann probe into somebody's 
 > backyard.

It might be if we had neighbors , but there is no indication whatsoever that we 
do. And when has politeness stopped a civilization, or even an individual, from 
doing what it really wanted to do?

> There was no observation of Dyson Sphere or other megastructures.

Yes, I've noticed.  
> This might mean that nobody needs such constructs.

I can think of 3 possibilities:  
1) They don't need such constructs because intelligent life, other than that 
which exists on earth, never existed in the observable universe. 
2) They don't need such constructs because intelligent life has existed in the 
observable universe before but they all encounter a calamity of some sort when 
they get to about our level of technological development. 

3) They don't need such constructs because intelligent life always gains 
control of their own emotional control panel and goes into a stagnant high 
pleasure but low energy and low intelligence state forever.  

And it could be that #2 and #3  are the same thing 

> Or that those who might want will have no means to built it.

A von Neumann probe would be very small and, unlike perpetual motion machines 
or time machines or faster than light travel, a von Neumann probe would require 
no new scientific breakthroughs, it just needs improved engineering. 



> I think that overgrown apes have it very hard when their every wish gets 
> fulfilled.

 Overgrown apes will never build a Dyson sphere, but the descendants of GPT4 
might, if they don't get caught up in an electronic opium den.   
> If there are going to be only a million of thinking creatures - the
number I have hinted out on this list few weeks ago - then they might
be supported with resources of good old Earth. No need to build DSphere.

If they are to reach their full intellectual potential a million mega brains 
are going to need the energy output of the entire sun, and you could only do 
that with a Dyson sphere. 


> No need for growing their minds exponentially either. Since they can live for 
> few billion years, they can as well not hurry up. 

 Slowing themselves down should help with achieving longer time


The faster a mind works the slower subjective time  passes, and the reverse is 
also true, if you slow down a mind enough a billion years will only seem like 
10 seconds.  And the faster a mind is the more energy is needed to operate it. 



> > This is pornographic level of consumption.





> Why?

> The gargantuan amounts of energy for single ape reminded me of a movie
"La Grande Bouffe" (https en.wikipedia.org wiki La_Grande_Bouffe). It
was scandalic for a while, nowadays is more or less forgotten. Somehow
the title was never translated into English like it should, i.e. "Huge
obnoxious eating".


There is no disputing matters of taste, however it would be naïve of you to 
expect that every

Re: Type II/Type III Civilization Search Finds Nothing

[Brent Meeker]

On 5/6/2023 9:43 AM, John Clark wrote:


I can think of 3 possibilities:

1) They don't need such constructsbecause intelligent life, other than 
that which exists on earth, never existed in the observable universe.


2) They don't need such constructsbecause intelligent life has existed 
in the observable universe before but they all encounter a calamity of 
some sort when they get to about our level of technological development.


3) They don't need such constructsbecause intelligent life always 
gains control of their own emotional control panel and goes into a 
stagnant high pleasure but low energy and low intelligence state forever.


And it could be that #2 and #3  are the same thing

/> Orthat those who might want will have no means to built it./


A von Neumann probewould be very small and, unlike perpetual motion 
machines or time machines or faster than light travel, a von Neumann 
probewould require no new scientific breakthroughs, it just needs 
improved engineering.



/> I think that overgrown apes have it very hard when their every
wishgets fulfilled./


Overgrown apeswill never build a Dyson sphere, but the descendants of 
GPT4 might, if they don't get caught up in an electronic opium den.


But they might

4) Build an immersive simulation in which they could explore all 
possible worlds.


That should keep them occupied a while.

Brent

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Re: Type II/Type III Civilization Search Finds Nothing

[John Clark]

On Fri, May 5, 2023 at 11:02 PM Tomasz Rola  wrote:


>
> * > Dyson sphere is purely theoretical concept. Was there even a small
> model built and tried? Something like ten meters in diameter, for example?*


Huh? Have objects 10 m in diameter or larger ever been heated internally?
Yes

*> Was there any material proposed for building the big one around the Sun?*


Yes of course there was, in the case of the sun all you need to do is
dismantle the planet Jupiter. How hard can that be?


* > I expect there will be bigger than expected heat accumulation. Maybe
> enough to boil eggs left inside.*


Well of course it will get hotter inside the Dyson Sphere! So what, nothing
of importance is inside that sphere, it's only purpose is to generate
electricity. According to the first law of thermodynamics energy is always
conserved ,so the sphere will heat up until equilibrium is reached and the
amount of energy hitting the inside of the sphere equals the amount of
energy that is radiated away into space as infrared light. And the second
law of thermodynamics is also obeyed, the Dyson Sphere extracts work by
converting low entropy visible and ultraviolet photons into high entropy
infrared photons .


> >
> *If I had to assume, I would assume eggs boiled hard. And oh yes, the
> sphere will also glow in infrared.*


Yes it will glow in infrared as a very bright point source with no visible
or ultraviolet radiation emitted at all. Such a thing should be very
conspicuous to an infrared telescope but no such object has ever been
observed.

>
* > Type3 is, for me, better called as Expansionist Exponential Locusts
> (EEL).*


You've forgotten IHA.

* > I would also say, it is very rude to send von Neumann probe into
> somebody's backyard.*


It might be if we had neighbors , but there is no indication whatsoever
that we do. And when has politeness stopped a civilization, or even an
individual, from doing what it really wanted to do?

*> There was no observation of Dyson Sphere or other megastructures.*


Yes, I've noticed.


> *> This might mean that nobody needs such constructs.*


I can think of 3 possibilities:

1) They don't need such constructs because intelligent life, other than
that which exists on earth, never existed in the observable universe.

2) They don't need such constructs because intelligent life has existed in
the observable universe before but they all encounter a calamity of some
sort when they get to about our level of technological development.

3) They don't need such constructs because intelligent life always gains
control of their own emotional control panel and goes into a stagnant high
pleasure but low energy and low intelligence state forever.

And it could be that #2 and #3  are the same thing

*> Or that those who might want will have no means to built it.*


A von Neumann probe would be very small and, unlike perpetual motion
machines or time machines or faster than light travel, a von Neumann probe
would require no new scientific breakthroughs, it just needs improved
engineering.
>
>
* > I think that overgrown apes have it very hard when their every wish
> gets fulfilled.*


 Overgrown apes will never build a Dyson sphere, but the descendants of
GPT4 might, if they don't get caught up in an electronic opium den.


>
>
> * > If there are going to be only a million of thinking creatures - the
> number I have hinted out on this list few weeks ago - then they might be
> supported with resources of good old Earth. No need to build DSphere.*


If they are to reach their full intellectual potential a million mega
brains are going to need the energy output of the entire sun, and you could
only do that with a Dyson sphere.


*> No need for growing their minds exponentially either. Since they can
> live for few billion years, they can as well not hurry up. *


> * Slowing themselves down should help with achieving longer time*


The faster a mind works the slower subjective time  passes, and the reverse
is also true, if you slow down a mind enough a billion years will only seem
like 10 seconds.  And the faster a mind is the more energy is needed to
operate it.

> > *This is pornographic level of consumption.*
>>
>>
> > Why?
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> *The gargantuan amounts of energy for single ape reminded me of a movie
> "La Grande Bouffe" (https en.wikipedia.org  wiki
> La_Grande_Bouffe). It was scandalic for a while, nowadays is more or less
> forgotten. Somehow the title was never translated into English like it
> should, i.e. "Huge obnoxious eating".*
>

There is no disputing matters of taste, however it would be naïve of you to
expect that every intelligent entity in the universe has the same taste in
this regard as you do. I certainly don't.


>
> * >In case you wonder why I want to have exit doors, it is because there
> is no fun to being locked in the crank house with number of guys yelling
> how they are gods and creators of life and what not.*
>

You almost make it sound 

Re: Type II/Type III Civilization Search Finds Nothing

[Tomasz Rola]

On Tue, May 02, 2023 at 08:13:39AM -0400, John Clark wrote:
> On Mon, May 1, 2023 at 8:30 PM Tomasz Rola  wrote:
> 
> >
> >> The radiant electromagnetic energy output of a star with a Dyson
> >> >> Sphere around it would be exactly the same as it was before the Dyson
> >> >> Sphere was built, the only difference is the energy would have been
> >> put to
> >> >> work and thus the low entropy visible and ultraviolet photons would
> >> have
> >> > been converted to high entropy infrared photons that contain a equal
> >> amount
> >> > >of energy.
> >
> >
> > >*This is how theory describes it.*
> 
> 
> That is how the Second Law Of Thermodynamics describes it, and this is how
> Arthur Eddington described the second law:
> 
> *“The law that entropy always increases holds, I think, the supreme
> position among the laws of Nature. If someone points out to you that your
> pet theory of the universe is in disagreement with Maxwell's equations -
> then so much the worse for Maxwell's equations. If it is found to be
> contradicted by observation - well, these experimentalists do bungle things
> sometimes. But if your theory is found to be against the Second Law of
> Thermodynamics I can give you no hope; there is nothing for it to collapse
> in deepest humiliation.”*

Yeah. If you ever try to boil water on a gas stove, then you probably
will observe that a lot of hot air goes around the pot and out the
roof. The book will allow you to calculate how much gas needs to be
burned in order to boil this much water. The book may or may not
mention that when using real gas stove in real life kitchen you would
need about twice as much gas (caveat: I have not measured, but I have
made some observations in my kitchen).

Heat transfer is tricky because pesky heat does not go when an
engineer wants it to go. Ask people who build steam engines, battle
tanks, or who try to remove heat from inside of supercomputer and they
will probably agree.

Dyson sphere is purely theoretical concept. Was there even a small
model built and tried? Something like ten meters in diameter, for
example? Was there any material proposed for building the big one
around the Sun? I understand that nope and nope. 

I expect there will be bigger than expected heat accumulation. Maybe
enough to boil eggs left inside. Maybe not. If I had to assume, I
would assume eggs boiled hard. And oh yes, the sphere will also glow
in infrared.

> > Why in hell would they want to destroy a brain on another star?!
> >
> 
> 
> I noticed that you never answered my question even though it's central to
> your proposed solution to the Fermi Paradox.

I think I have already given this answer. I may try to be more
explicit.

The dispute about Fermi Paradox is, in my opinion, a bit flawed,
because many people assume that space faring civilization has to do it
in certain way. So far, the results are this:

1. There was no observation of Type3 and Type2 civilization. Type3 is,
for me, better called as Expansionist Exponential Locusts (EEL). It is
very good none had been observed, because they would want to screw us
and eat our future. They would have to eat us, being exponential - eat
and procreate at our cost. I would also say, it is very rude to send
von Neumann probe into somebody's backyard. Of course impoliteness
will be met with equal and adverse impoliteness, or at least this is
what I expect when I try to emulate adult.

2. There was no observation of Dyson Sphere or other
megastructures. This might mean that nobody needs such constructs. Or
that those who might want will have no means to built it. Like humans
- we have very slim chance to make it to the point when building DS
becomes engineering possibility. In my opinion we are right now eating
from our own future. The whole talk about us sending vN probes or
building DSpheres is just EEL dreams.

So, EELs are not going to make it into Type2 territory, because they
misuse the resources while they have them. After that, collapse. After
collapse, maybe some small scale exploration of planets like Mars. You
should know about it, because this is simple ecological model -
rabbits on the island, eating all grass and collapsing. Rabbits too
stupid, grass never regrows to precollapse levels.

Thus EELs cannot be observed - they never come to the point of
producing signature big enough. They never come to the point of
sending vN probes, either. If they did, we would know. Or rather,
there would be no "us".

So much about Fermi Paradox, for now. Chance is, I might think some
more conclusions from the obs data collected. Maybe later.

Of course, there might be neighbours who do not go the way of EEL -
I understand obs data does not contradict the idea.

Now, what is required to observe them?

> > * >The total luminosity of Sun is estimated as 3.828*10^26 watts. If we
> > divide it among ten billion people, this gives ca. 4*10^16 watts, or 4
> > terawatts per head, or ca. 4000 times whole Earth energy production for
> > every and 

Re: Type II/Type III Civilization Search Finds Nothing

[John Clark]

On Mon, May 1, 2023 at 8:30 PM Tomasz Rola  wrote:

>
>> The radiant electromagnetic energy output of a star with a Dyson
>> >> Sphere around it would be exactly the same as it was before the Dyson
>> >> Sphere was built, the only difference is the energy would have been
>> put to
>> >> work and thus the low entropy visible and ultraviolet photons would
>> have
>> > been converted to high entropy infrared photons that contain a equal
>> amount
>> > >of energy.
>
>
> >*This is how theory describes it.*


That is how the Second Law Of Thermodynamics describes it, and this is how
Arthur Eddington described the second law:

*“The law that entropy always increases holds, I think, the supreme
position among the laws of Nature. If someone points out to you that your
pet theory of the universe is in disagreement with Maxwell's equations -
then so much the worse for Maxwell's equations. If it is found to be
contradicted by observation - well, these experimentalists do bungle things
sometimes. But if your theory is found to be against the Second Law of
Thermodynamics I can give you no hope; there is nothing for it to collapse
in deepest humiliation.”*

> Why in hell would they want to destroy a brain on another star?!
>


I noticed that you never answered my question even though it's central to
your proposed solution to the Fermi Paradox.

>

>
>
> * >The total luminosity of Sun is estimated as 3.828*10^26 watts. If we
> divide it among ten billion people, this gives ca. 4*10^16 watts, or 4
> terawatts per head, or ca. 4000 times whole Earth energy production for
> every and each single human.*


As I explained in a previous post I would not expect there to be 10 billion
individual minds being powered by a star, but only 1 million or less, so
the energy consumption per mind would be about 10 million times greater
than the numbers you mentioned. But there's something I don't understand,
if you're correct (and I don't think you are) and one civilization already
has access to more energy than it will ever need then what reason would it
have for attacking another civilization around a different star that is
hundreds or thousands or millions of light years away? What would a distant
civilization have that they lack that they couldn't obtain someplace much
closer?


> *>This is pornographic level of consumption.*


Why?

*> In my worldview, those who want such things are already a bit insane.*


Then your worldview and mine are very different.

*> The longer they bathe in the excess, the more unpredictable they become.*
>

If you're talking about immortality and there is only a finite number of
particles that comprise you and the environment then, thanks to the study
of thermodynamics, we know that unpredictability is good because the only
alternative is Groundhog's Day, and reliving the exact same time period
 over and over again forever is a very poor sort of of immortality. The
only way of avoiding, or at least delaying indefinitely, the Eternal Return
problem is to increase the number of calculations a mind is capable of
making and having sufficient energy to make those new calculations.

Eternal Return


>
>>  the only thing a Dyson Sphere building civilization would
>> >> still value would be novelty, and 2 such advanced civilizations that
>> >> evolved independently would be novel indeed. I think both would be
>> >> delighted to find each other and communicate, the delay time would
>> >> be large but so would be the bandwidth.
>
>
> * >Novelty seeking, you say.*


Yes I do say that.


> * > I can imagine it as you, Nero and Caligula discussing the next novelty
> to be tried.*


I'm not talking about finding new sexual perversions as you seem to be
implying, or at least I'm not just talking about that, I'm talking about
finding new scientific and mathematical facts, and finding new art, and
finding new jokes, and finding new friends. In general I'm talking about
finding new thoughts.

> *> No offence meant.*


No offense taken because your remark was novel so I enjoyed it, I don't
think I've ever been compared with Nero or Caligula before.


> >> Once we enter the age of Nanotechnology the lessons from history will
>> be of
>> > little value, that's why it's called a Singularity.
>
>
> * > Well, nanogrifters will welcome the future when people refuse to learn
> from the past.*


People won't refuse to learn from the past, they will simply be incapable
of learning from it. The fundamental reason why Nanotechnology will produce
a singularity is that it will produce an exponential growth in intelligence,
and human beings are lousy at predicting the outcome of exponential growth
even for something as simple as a virus, much less for intelligence.
Physicist
Albert Bartlett said:

 "*The greatest shortcoming of the human race was its “inability to
understand the exponential 

Re: Type II/Type III Civilization Search Finds Nothing

[Tomasz Rola]

On Fri, Apr 28, 2023 at 10:20:06AM -0400, John Clark wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 27, 2023 at 10:04 PM Tomasz Rola  wrote:
> 
[...]
> > * I mean, star is projecting this whole energy outwards, so the idea of
> > sucking it up and keepeing it inwards sounds fishy and possibly hints of
> > some mental condition. But okay, it is their energy and their star, and if
> > they want to cook themselves hard then why not.*
> >
> 
> Huh? The radiant electromagnetic energy output of a star with a Dyson
> Sphere around it would be exactly the same as it was before the Dyson
> Sphere was built, the only difference is the energy would have been put to
> work and thus the low entropy visible and ultraviolet photons would have
> been converted to high entropy infrared photons that contain a equal amount
> of energy. 

This is how theory describes it. In real life, I think this will be
engineering project and I expect lots of unwanted heat ending up on
the "wrong side of the wall".


> But as I have said no such object has ever been observed and if
> they existed they should have been.

Perhaps only insane aliens do such things - see below.

> > * > But it could also be used to enable some deranged gizmo project,
> > mega-zeta-interstellar-laser or speeding up subrelativistic torpedos,*
> 
> 
> Why in hell would they want to destroy a brain on another star?!

The total luminosity of Sun is estimated as 3.828*10^26 watts. If we
divide it among ten billion people, this gives ca. 4*10^16 watts, or
4 terawatts per head, or ca. 4000 times whole Earth energy
production for every and each single human. This is pornographic level
of consumption. In my worldview, those who want such things are
already a bit insane. The longer they bathe in the excess, the more
unpredictable they become.

> As I said the only thing a Dyson Sphere building civilization would
> still value would be novelty, and 2 such advanced civilizations that
> evolved independently would be novel indeed. I think both would be
> delighted to find each other and communicate, the delay time would
> be large but so would be the bandwidth.  But what could a Type2
> civilization do to increase novelty if it was already using the
> energy output of its star to the limit of its capacity and could
> detect no other Type2 such as itself?

Novelty seeking, you say. I can imagine it as you, Nero and Caligula
discussing the next novelty to be tried. No offence meant. Perhaps you
would have been the saner of the trio, or perhaps not.

So! We do not see signs of insane aliens rising up to the level when
their traces would show off from the background. This is very positive
fact. It means the Universe is not so much screwed up as I sometimes
think (during bad days).

[...]
> >
> > * > So, you are right, in a way - he who is Type3 has little to be afraid
> > of (but I would proposition he starts paranoia about his closest circle,
> > because this is the lesson from history).*
> >
> 
> Once we enter the age of Nanotechnology the lessons from history will be of
> little value, that's why it's called a Singularity.

Well, nanogrifters will welcome the future when people refuse to learn
from the past. They will call it Singularity and while the public
looks at the prelegent, his helping assistants seek for the thickest
purses, whose owners would be the most prospective candidates for
advanced teachings and inner circles of Nanotechnological Guru of Love
for the Advancement of Global Good and we do not need money
anymore. Or clothes.

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.  **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home**
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...  **
** **
** Tomasz Rola  mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **

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Re: Type II/Type III Civilization Search Finds Nothing

[Lawrence Crowell]

I have noticed a curious upsurge in ideas that involve a little bit of 
science, some futuristic stuff with a heavy dollop of science fiction ideas 
that are framed within libertarian or right winged political ideology. 
Social media has had a big growth in this sort of silliness. I suppose 
maybe those on the conservative political spectrum with little stomach for 
the religious right or Christian nationalism are voicing their ideas more 
and more.

LC

On Saturday, April 29, 2023 at 2:54:49 PM UTC-5 spudb...@aol.com wrote:

My view based on what a few astronomers have written, is that we are not 
yet at the level of placing enough detectors aka telescopes around the 
solar system, the Oort cloud-Kuiper Belt to detect even big things like 
Dyson's Spheres. If one goes by why would our kiddies' built it, I'd go 
with the speculation of yes more room for humans, fauna and flora, yes,, an 
energy catcher, solar, but also I will throw in the a Dyson sphere as a 
resurrection machine. It'd take lots and lots of electrical power!  

Yeah this again.  ​Dyson spheres: The key to resurrection and immortality? 
- Big Think 

Primo motivation there, young fella!

I am betting we now would have trouble identifying a sphere. We are just 
getting good at the telescope engineering, and we have not even built a 
telescope farm on the Lunar far side yet!

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Re: Type II/Type III Civilization Search Finds Nothing

[Lawrence Crowell]

Well, we have this sort of cosmic equivalence principle that what is down 
on Earth is the same up there. Things are screwy here on Earth and we 
humans are little more than 8 billion trash making ground apes 
exponentially rampaging out of control. So, should we expect things to be 
substantially better on other planets with intelligent life? Probably not. 
Most likely all ETI exterminates itself, just as we humans are likely to 
do. I give fair to decent odds humanity will be gone in a few centuries, if 
not a few decades.

LC

On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 8:40:21 AM UTC-5 John Clark wrote:

> Yet more evidence that we're alone in the universe, at least the 
> observable universe. 
>
> Upper limits on transmitter rate of extragalactic civilizations placed by 
> Breakthrough Listen observations <https://arxiv.org/pdf/2304.02756.pdf>
>
>
> Type II/Type III Civilization Search Finds Nothing 
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W7flMksgV0=306>
>
> John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis 
> <https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>
> 45d
>

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Re: Type II/Type III Civilization Search Finds Nothing

[spudboy100 via Everything List]

My view based on what a few astronomers have written, is that we are not yet at 
the level of placing enough detectors aka telescopes around the solar system, 
the Oort cloud-Kuiper Belt to detect even big things like Dyson's Spheres. If 
one goes by why would our kiddies' built it, I'd go with the speculation of yes 
more room for humans, fauna and flora, yes,, an energy catcher, solar, but also 
I will throw in the a Dyson sphere as a resurrection machine. It'd take lots 
and lots of electrical power! 
Yeah this again.  ​Dyson spheres: The key to resurrection and immortality? - 
Big Think
Primo motivation there, young fella!
I am betting we now would have trouble identifying a sphere. We are just 
getting good at the telescope engineering, and we have not even built a 
telescope farm on the Lunar far side yet!


-Original Message-
From: John Clark 
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, Apr 28, 2023 10:20 am
Subject: Re: Type II/Type III Civilization Search Finds Nothing

On Thu, Apr 27, 2023 at 10:04 PM Tomasz Rola  wrote:


> As of relations between hypotetical neighbors, I do not think anybody
would make big fuss if one of them decided to suck full energy of
their star (i.e. becoming Type2).

I can't think of any reason neighbors would object to building such a thing 
either, but the Second Law Of Thermodynamics demands that at stellar distances 
such an object would produce a very very small but very very bright infrared 
signal with no visible ultraviolet or x-ray emissions at all. Such an object 
should be easily observable by an earthbound infrared telescope or a space 
based one such as the Web, but nothing even close to that has ever been found. 
And that makes me conclude that they probably don't exist in the observable 
universe.

 > I can hardly think about any use for such a project

I sure can!  When Drexler style Nanotechnology becomes commonplace (which will 
happen the day after the first Nanofabricator is built) any task will be either 
physically impossible or ridiculously easy, nothing will be too difficult or 
expensive to do. The only thing that will still be valuable will be novelty, 
and brains are more interesting than dead matter because brains can perform 
computations. But it takes energy to make a calculation, a star provides a lot 
of energy, however in every star we've ever looked at all that energy is never 
put to work, instead it's just radiated uselessly into infinite space. I don't 
believe any intelligence would put up with such uselessness for long. So they 
would have every incentive to construct a Dyson Sphere, or at least they would 
if ET actually existed.     
>  I mean, star is projecting this whole energy outwards, so the
idea of sucking it up and keepeing it inwards sounds fishy and
possibly hints of some mental condition. But okay, it is their energy
and their star, and if they want to cook themselves hard then why not.


Huh? The radiant electromagnetic energy output of a star with a Dyson Sphere 
around it would be exactly the same as it was before the Dyson Sphere was 
built, the only difference is the energy would have been put to work and thus 
the low entropy visible and ultraviolet photons would have been converted to 
high entropy infrared photons that contain a equal amount of energy. But as I 
have said no such object has ever been observed and if they existed they should 
have been. 

> But it could also be used to enable some deranged gizmo project,
mega-zeta-interstellar-laser or speeding up subrelativistic torpedos,

Why in hell would they want to destroy a brain on another star?!  As I said the 
only thing a Dyson Sphere building civilization would still value would be 
novelty, and 2 such advanced civilizations that evolved independently would be 
novel indeed. I think both would be delighted to find each other and 
communicate, the delay time would be large but so would be the bandwidth.  But 
what could a Type2 civilization do to increase novelty if it was already using 
the energy output of its star to the limit of its capacity and could detect no 
other Type2 such as itself? It could construct just one single von Neumann 
probe and send it to the nearest star and then, even if we make the 
ridiculously conservative assumption that it couldn't make an interstellar 
probe move any faster then we can do right now with our primitive chemical 
rockets, there would still be such a construction machine on every stellar 
system in the galaxy in less than 50 million years, a blink of the eye 
cosmically speaking. And very soon after that you'd have a Type3 civilization.  
If a Type3 civilization existed anywhere in the observable universe we would 
see it, but we see nothing of the sort. 


>  As of becoming Type3, I simply do not think it is going to be allowed.

This is how I think it could occur. I don't think a Type2 would contain 
trillions or even billions of minds but probably less than a million, that's 
b

Re: Type II/Type III Civilization Search Finds Nothing

[spudboy100 via Everything List]

My thinking after reading this dissertation is that going for an entire galaxy 
may not be a prime motivation for conscious beings, even computer ones. A solar 
system, plus the cloud of comets might, just do the trick?
This Dyson Sphere Could Bring Humans Back From the Dead, Researchers Say - The 
Space Academy
Impossible for me to comprehend, but it would provide lots of interesting 
projects and meetings for human descendants and, or, enthusiastic LMM's or 
their descendants? Yeah, the lifetime of the Sun, but I have seen a few 
articles about stellar engineering that might sustain our star far beyond what 
typical stellar physics entails?
the sun - How much more life could the Sun acquire via star lifting? - 
Astronomy Stack Exchange
Our collective descendants could call themselves, The Star Lifters. Sounds like 
a British sci fi novel, doesn't it?


-Original Message-
From: Tomasz Rola 
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, Apr 27, 2023 10:04 pm
Subject: Re: Type II/Type III Civilization Search Finds Nothing

On Wed, Apr 26, 2023 at 12:58:34PM -0400, John Clark wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 9:07 PM Tomasz Rola  wrote:
> 
> 
> > * > My version is, if there was anything like type2/3 civilization, it
> > would quickly become a pest to everybody around.*
> 
> 
> Only if the neighbors had something that a type 3 civilization didn't, and
> I can't imagine what that could be.

I propose the neighbours posess mental sanity.

> > *Now guess what would be the next thing happening to them. Yes indeed, no
> > trace of them.*
> 
> 
> That sounds like the premise of the "three body problem" books  which made
> for a fun read but fundamentally didn't make a lot of sense.  A type 3
> civilization would have control of the energy output of an entire galaxy,
> what would they have to fear from anybody?

I have not read "3BP" yet, only its description in Wikipedia. Sounds
interesting but maybe later. I have also once found description of
"The Killing Star" by Charles Pellegrino and George Zebrowski [1] to
be interesting and much like how I imagine such things could happen.

As of relations between hypotetical neighbors, I do not think anybody
would make big fuss if one of them decided to suck full energy of
their star (i.e. becoming Type2). I can hardly think about any use for
such a project, especially one that stays inside limits of their
home. I mean, star is projecting this whole energy outwards, so the
idea of sucking it up and keepeing it inwards sounds fishy and
possibly hints of some mental condition. But okay, it is their energy
and their star, and if they want to cook themselves hard then why
not.

But it could also be used to enable some deranged gizmo project,
mega-zeta-interstellar-laser or speeding up subrelativistic torpedos,
so anybody going Type2 will simply draw a lot of attention to
themselves and should expect being infiltrated, monitored, etc. And
boy they better allow it.

As of becoming Type3, I simply do not think it is going to be
allowed. Any move towards such end would probably result in
annihilation without unnecessary talk. Because we are among adults and
adults know the meaning of their own and others actions, especially
threats. Attempting any movement towards Type3 is like displaying huge
"here lives future galactic Hitler". I think it is very much like
asking to end ones misery, when one cannot control oneself for much
longer.

So, you are right, in a way - he who is Type3 has little to be afraid
of (but I would proposition he starts paranoia about his closest
circle, because this is the lesson from history).

However I cannot imagine neighbours patiently wait and look at this
guy pumping himself up.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Killing_Star

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com            **

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Re: Type II/Type III Civilization Search Finds Nothing

[John Clark]

On Thu, Apr 27, 2023 at 10:04 PM Tomasz Rola  wrote:


>
> *> As of relations between hypotetical neighbors, I do not think anybody
> would make big fuss if one of them decided to suck full energy of their
> star (i.e. becoming Type2).*


I can't think of any reason neighbors would object to building such a thing
either, but the Second Law Of Thermodynamics demands that at stellar
distances such an object would produce a very very small but very very
bright infrared signal with no visible ultraviolet or x-ray emissions at
all. Such an object should be easily observable by an earthbound infrared
telescope or a space based one such as the Web, but nothing even close to
that has ever been found. And that makes me conclude that they probably
don't exist in the observable universe.

* > I can hardly think about any use for such a project*


I sure can!  When Drexler style Nanotechnology becomes commonplace (which
will happen the day after the first Nanofabricator is built) any task will
be either physically impossible or ridiculously easy, nothing will be too
difficult or expensive to do. The only thing that will still be valuable
will be novelty, and brains are more interesting than dead matter because
brains can perform computations. But it takes energy to make a calculation,
a star provides a lot of energy, however in every star we've ever looked at
all that energy is never put to work, instead it's just radiated uselessly
into infinite space. I don't believe any intelligence would put up with
such uselessness for long. So they would have every incentive to construct
a Dyson Sphere, or at least they would if ET actually existed.


> >
>
>
> * I mean, star is projecting this whole energy outwards, so the idea of
> sucking it up and keepeing it inwards sounds fishy and possibly hints of
> some mental condition. But okay, it is their energy and their star, and if
> they want to cook themselves hard then why not.*
>

Huh? The radiant electromagnetic energy output of a star with a Dyson
Sphere around it would be exactly the same as it was before the Dyson
Sphere was built, the only difference is the energy would have been put to
work and thus the low entropy visible and ultraviolet photons would have
been converted to high entropy infrared photons that contain a equal amount
of energy. But as I have said no such object has ever been observed and if
they existed they should have been.


> * > But it could also be used to enable some deranged gizmo project,
> mega-zeta-interstellar-laser or speeding up subrelativistic torpedos,*


Why in hell would they want to destroy a brain on another star?!  As I said
the only thing a Dyson Sphere building civilization would still value would
be novelty, and 2 such advanced civilizations that evolved independently
would be novel indeed. I think both would be delighted to find each other
and communicate, the delay time would be large but so would be the
bandwidth.  But what could a Type2 civilization do to increase novelty if
it was already using the energy output of its star to the limit of its
capacity and could detect no other Type2 such as itself? It could construct
just one single von Neumann probe and send it to the nearest star and then,
even if we make the ridiculously conservative assumption that it couldn't
make an interstellar probe move any faster then we can do right now with
our primitive chemical rockets, there would still be such a construction
machine on every stellar system in the galaxy in less than 50 million
years, a blink of the eye cosmically speaking. And very soon after that
you'd have a Type3 civilization.  If a Type3 civilization existed anywhere
in the observable universe we would see it, but we see nothing of the sort.

* >  As of becoming Type3, I simply do not think it is going to be allowed.*


This is how I think it could occur. I don't think a Type2 would contain
trillions or even billions of minds but probably less than a million,
that's because enormous amounts of information can be transferred very
quickly electronically, so provided that  2 brains are not so far apart
that the delay caused by the finite speed of light becomes significant
there would not be 2 brains but only one.  If every thought you had I had
and every thought I had you had it would it  be meaningless to talk about 2
separate people. But how distant can the two brains be before the time
delay becomes intolerable?

The fastest signals in the human brain move at a couple of hundred meters a
second, many are far slower, light moves at 300 million meters per second.
So if you insist that the 2 most distant parts of a brain communicate as
fast as they do in a human brain (a rather arbitrary constraint)  then
parts in the brain of an AI could be at least one million times as distant
as they are in a human, about 480 miles across. The volume increases by the
cube of the distance so such a brain would physically be a million trillion
(10^18) times larger than a human brain. Even 

Re: Type II/Type III Civilization Search Finds Nothing

[Tomasz Rola]

On Wed, Apr 26, 2023 at 12:58:34PM -0400, John Clark wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 9:07 PM Tomasz Rola  wrote:
> 
> 
> > * > My version is, if there was anything like type2/3 civilization, it
> > would quickly become a pest to everybody around.*
> 
> 
> Only if the neighbors had something that a type 3 civilization didn't, and
> I can't imagine what that could be.

I propose the neighbours posess mental sanity.

> > *Now guess what would be the next thing happening to them. Yes indeed, no
> > trace of them.*
> 
> 
> That sounds like the premise of the "three body problem" books  which made
> for a fun read but fundamentally didn't make a lot of sense.  A type 3
> civilization would have control of the energy output of an entire galaxy,
> what would they have to fear from anybody?

I have not read "3BP" yet, only its description in Wikipedia. Sounds
interesting but maybe later. I have also once found description of
"The Killing Star" by Charles Pellegrino and George Zebrowski [1] to
be interesting and much like how I imagine such things could happen.

As of relations between hypotetical neighbors, I do not think anybody
would make big fuss if one of them decided to suck full energy of
their star (i.e. becoming Type2). I can hardly think about any use for
such a project, especially one that stays inside limits of their
home. I mean, star is projecting this whole energy outwards, so the
idea of sucking it up and keepeing it inwards sounds fishy and
possibly hints of some mental condition. But okay, it is their energy
and their star, and if they want to cook themselves hard then why
not.

But it could also be used to enable some deranged gizmo project,
mega-zeta-interstellar-laser or speeding up subrelativistic torpedos,
so anybody going Type2 will simply draw a lot of attention to
themselves and should expect being infiltrated, monitored, etc. And
boy they better allow it.

As of becoming Type3, I simply do not think it is going to be
allowed. Any move towards such end would probably result in
annihilation without unnecessary talk. Because we are among adults and
adults know the meaning of their own and others actions, especially
threats. Attempting any movement towards Type3 is like displaying huge
"here lives future galactic Hitler". I think it is very much like
asking to end ones misery, when one cannot control oneself for much
longer.

So, you are right, in a way - he who is Type3 has little to be afraid
of (but I would proposition he starts paranoia about his closest
circle, because this is the lesson from history).

However I cannot imagine neighbours patiently wait and look at this
guy pumping himself up.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Killing_Star

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.  **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home**
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...  **
** **
** Tomasz Rola  mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **

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Re: Type II/Type III Civilization Search Finds Nothing

[John Clark]

On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 9:07 PM Tomasz Rola  wrote:


> * > My version is, if there was anything like type2/3 civilization, it
> would quickly become a pest to everybody around.*


Only if the neighbors had something that a type 3 civilization didn't, and
I can't imagine what that could be.

> *Now guess what would be the next thing happening to them. Yes indeed, no
> trace of them.*


That sounds like the premise of the "three body problem" books  which made
for a fun read but fundamentally didn't make a lot of sense.  A type 3
civilization would have control of the energy output of an entire galaxy,
what would they have to fear from anybody?

John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis

3xo


>

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Re: Type II/Type III Civilization Search Finds Nothing

[Tomasz Rola]

On Sun, Apr 23, 2023 at 09:39:41AM -0400, John Clark wrote:
> Yet more evidence that we're alone in the universe, at least the observable
> universe.
> 
> Upper limits on transmitter rate of extragalactic civilizations placed by
> Breakthrough Listen observations <https://arxiv.org/pdf/2304.02756.pdf>
> 
> 
> Type II/Type III Civilization Search Finds Nothing
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W7flMksgV0=306>

I think you (and the other guys) start with wrong assumption (if I had
to voice it, perhaps something like "capitalism is the rule of
Universe") and then come to wrong conclusion.

My version is, if there was anything like type2/3 civilization, it
would quickly become a pest to everybody around. Now guess what would
be the next thing happening to them. Yes indeed, no trace of them.

What would then be the rule of Universe? Perhaps something like "tread
softly, because milion years old folks may not give you a second chance".

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.  **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home**
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...  **
** **
** Tomasz Rola  mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **

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Type II/Type III Civilization Search Finds Nothing

[John Clark]

Yet more evidence that we're alone in the universe, at least the observable
universe.

Upper limits on transmitter rate of extragalactic civilizations placed by
Breakthrough Listen observations <https://arxiv.org/pdf/2304.02756.pdf>


Type II/Type III Civilization Search Finds Nothing
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W7flMksgV0=306>

John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis
<https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>
45d

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