--
*From:* Kevin Driedger linuxbox+f...@gmail.com
*To:* Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com; Fundamentals of New Computing
fonc@vpri.org
*Sent:* Monday, September 2, 2013 2:41 PM
*Subject:* Re: [fonc] Final STEP progress report abandoned?
Alan,
Can you give us any more details
Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com writes:
When I said even scientists go against their training I was also
pointing out really deep problems in humanity's attempts at thinking
(we are quite terrible thinkers!).
I think a quite modest improvement would be more powerful
calculators. For example, we
On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 1:19 AM, Chris Warburton
chriswa...@googlemail.comwrote:
David Barbour dmbarb...@gmail.com writes:
But favoring a simpler programming model - e.g. one with only
integers, and where the only operation is to add or compare them
-might also help.
If the problem
On Mon, Sep 9, 2013 at 2:11 AM, Chris Warburton
chriswa...@googlemail.comwrote:
I think a quite modest improvement would be more powerful
calculators.
Smart phones? :)
(But seriously.)
Honestly, one of the things I would really want in a more powerful
calculator is a powerful array of
From: Paul Homer paul_ho...@yahoo.ca
To: Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com; Fundamentals of New Computing
fonc@vpri.org; Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org
Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2013 12:24 PM
Subject: Re: [fonc] Final STEP progress report abandoned?
Hi Alan,
I can't predict
Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com; Fundamentals of New Computing
fonc@vpri.org; Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org
Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2013 12:24 PM
Subject: Re: [fonc] Final STEP progress report abandoned?
Hi Alan,
I can't predict what will come, but I definitely have a sense
: Tuesday, September 3, 2013 7:48:22 AM
Subject: Re: [fonc] Final STEP progress report abandoned?
Hi Jonathan
We are not soliciting proposals, but we like to hear the opinions of others on
burning issues and better directions in computing.
Cheers,
Alan
David Barbour dmbarb...@gmail.com writes:
But favoring a simpler programming model - e.g. one with only
integers, and where the only operation is to add or compare them
-might also help.
If the problem domain is X then I agree a minimal X-specific DSL is a
good idea, although purely numeric
In a sense, but on a higher level, it's more focused on the stretegic
desgin.
http://impactmapping.org/drawing.php
Also take a look at for related modelling technique
http://www.b-mc2.com/2013/04/26/from-business-strategy-to-solution-a-unified-conceptual-framework/
And for that matter
John Nilsson j...@milsson.nu writes:
Even if the different domains are different it should still be possible to
generalize the basic framework and strategy used.
I imagine layers of models each constrained by the upper metamodel and a
fitness function feeding a generator to create the next
On Wed, Sep 04, 2013 at 04:28:52PM -0700, Simon Forman wrote:
There is a (the?) universal logical notation being elucidated right now that
seems to me to be very promising for this sort of stuff.
Is it intrinsically massively parallel? If it isn't, it's probably
not going to go places.
Eugen Leitl eu...@leitl.org writes:
On Wed, Sep 04, 2013 at 04:28:52PM -0700, Simon Forman wrote:
There is a (the?) universal logical notation being elucidated right now that
seems to me to be very promising for this sort of stuff.
Is it intrinsically massively parallel? If it isn't, it's
David Barbour dmbarb...@gmail.com writes:
Regarding the language under-the-hood: If we want to automate software
development, we would gain a great deal of efficiency and robustness by
focusing on languages whose programs are easy to evaluate, and that will
(a) be meaningful/executable by
On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 8:17 AM, Carl Gundel ca...@psychesystems.com wrote:
I’m not sure why you think I’m attributing special reverence to
computing. Break all the rules, please. ;-)
To say you're touching the hem generally implies you're also on your
knees and bowing your head.
of New Computing
*Subject:* Re: [fonc] Final STEP progress report abandoned?
** **
If you treat computing that reverently, you'll never improve it.
** **
On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 6:19 AM, Carl Gundel ca...@psychesystems.com
wrote:
Design systems that are more efficient than
On Sep 5, 2013 11:18 AM, David Barbour dmbarb...@gmail.com wrote:
But it's easy to forget that life had millions or billions of years to
get where it's at, and that it has burned through materials, that it fails
to recognize the awesomeness of many of the really cool 'programs' it has
created
, September 05, 2013 12:16 PM
*To:* Fundamentals of New Computing
*Subject:* Re: [fonc] Final STEP progress report abandoned?
** **
** **
On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 8:17 AM, Carl Gundel ca...@psychesystems.com
wrote:
I’m not sure why you think I’m attributing special reverence to
computing
12:16 PM
To: Fundamentals of New Computing
Subject: Re: [fonc] Final STEP progress report abandoned?
On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 8:17 AM, Carl Gundel ca...@psychesystems.com wrote:
I’m not sure why you think I’m attributing special reverence to computing.
Break all the rules, please
David Barbour dmbarb...@gmail.com writes:
I agree we can gain some inspirations from life. Genetic programming,
neural networks, the development of robust systems in terms of reactive
cycles, focus on adaptive rather than abstractive computation.
But it's easy to forget that life had
On Sep 5, 2013 11:57 AM, David Barbour dmbarb...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 9:41 AM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com wrote:
Has anyone done research on improving programs? I know of some where
you try to find bugs in programs. What about actually detecting and
replacing or
Even if the different domains are different it should still be possible to
generalize the basic framework and strategy used.
I imagine layers of models each constrained by the upper metamodel and a
fitness function feeding a generator to create the next layer down until
you reach the bottom
So I guess I would apply a goedel machine by looking at http request and
response or sql*net request and response. Is there a goedel machine that
work on 2 inputs and 2 outputs, or do you just label them, reducing the
number of inputs and outputs?
On Sep 5, 2013 12:22 PM, John Carlson
What is an impact map model? Is it something like a use case?
On Sep 5, 2013 12:33 PM, John Nilsson j...@milsson.nu wrote:
Even if the different domains are different it should still be possible to
generalize the basic framework and strategy used.
I imagine layers of models each constrained
David Barbour dmbarb...@gmail.com writes:
On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 5:35 AM, Chris Warburton
chriswa...@googlemail.comwrote:
there can often be a semantic cost in trying to assign meaning
to arbitrary combinations of tokens. This can complicate the runtime
(eg. using different stacks for
All very good points, Chris.
On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 10:27 AM, Chris Warburton
chriswa...@googlemail.comwrote:
David Barbour dmbarb...@gmail.com writes:
I agree we can gain some inspirations from life. Genetic programming,
neural networks, the development of robust systems in terms of
On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 11:40 AM, Chris Warburton
chriswa...@googlemail.comwrote:
to prevent type errors like true 5 + it uses a different stack for each
type
I think these errors might not be essential to prevent. But we might want
to support some redundant structure, i.e. something like
On 09/05/2013 at 4:05 AM, Eugen Leitl eu...@leitl.org wrote:
On Wed, Sep 04, 2013 at 04:28:52PM -0700, Simon Forman wrote:
There is a (the?) universal logical notation being elucidated
right now that seems to me to be very promising for this sort of
stuff.
Is it intrinsically massively
On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 5:35 AM, Chris Warburton
chriswa...@googlemail.comwrote:
there can often be a semantic cost in trying to assign meaning
to arbitrary combinations of tokens. This can complicate the runtime
(eg. using different stacks for different datatypes) and require
arbitrary/ad-hoc
John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com writes:
On Sep 5, 2013 11:57 AM, David Barbour dmbarb...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 9:41 AM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com wrote:
Has anyone done research on improving programs? I know of some where
you try to find bugs in programs. What
Check out http://www.cat-language.com/
BR
John
Skickat från min iPhone
4 sep 2013 kl. 01:43 skrev Casey Ransberger casey.obrie...@gmail.com:
I've heavily abridged your message David; sorry if I've dropped important
context. My words below...
On Sep 3, 2013, at 3:04 PM, David Barbour
On Sep 3, 2013 8:25 PM, Casey Ransberger casey.obrie...@gmail.com wrote:
It yields a kind of syntaxlessness that's interesting.
Our TWB/TE language was mostly syntaxless. Instead, you performed
operations on desktop objects that were recorded (like AppleScript, but
with an iconic language).
I meant to say you could perform and record operations while the program
was running.
I think people have missed machine language as syntaxless.
On Sep 4, 2013 4:17 PM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sep 3, 2013 8:25 PM, Casey Ransberger casey.obrie...@gmail.com
wrote:
It yields
On 9/3/13, Casey Ransberger casey.obrie...@gmail.com wrote:
...
On Sep 3, 2013, at 3:04 PM, David Barbour dmbarb...@gmail.com wrote:
Even better if the languages are good for exploration by genetic
programming - i.e. easily sliced, spliced, rearranged, mutated.
I've only seen this done
John, you're right. I have seen raw binary used as DNA and I left that out.
This could be my own prejudice, but it seems like a messy way to do things.
I suppose I want to limit what the animal can do by constraining it to some
set of safe primitives. Maybe that's a silly thing to worry about,
Life is, in some ways, less messy than binary. At least less fragile. DNA
cannot encode absolute offsets, for example. Closer to associative memory.
In any case, we want to reach useful solutions quickly. Life doesn't evolve
at a scale commensurate with human patience, despite having vastly more
: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 10:45:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [fonc] Final STEP progress report abandoned?
Hi Dan
It actually got written and given to NSF and approved, etc., a while ago,
but needs a little more work before posting on the VPRI site.
Meanwhile we've been consumed by setting up a number
AM
Subject: Re: [fonc] Final STEP progress report abandoned?
That's great news! We desperately need fresh air. As you know, the way a
problem is framed bounds its solutions. Do you already know what problems to
work on or are you soliciting proposals?
Jonathan
From: Alan Kay alan.n
: Re: [fonc] Final STEP progress report abandoned?
Alan,
Can you give us any more details or direction on these research projects?
]{evin ])riedger
On Mon, Sep 2, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com wrote:
Hi Dan
It actually got written and given to NSF and approved, etc
...@gmail.com
*To:* Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com; Fundamentals of New Computing
fonc@vpri.org
*Sent:* Monday, September 2, 2013 2:41 PM
*Subject:* Re: [fonc] Final STEP progress report abandoned?
Alan,
Can you give us any more details or direction on these research projects?
]{evin
...@melchione.com
To: fonc@vpri.org
Sent: Monday, September 2, 2013 10:40 AM
Subject: [fonc] Final STEP progress report abandoned?
Haven't seen much regarding this for a while. Has it been been abandoned or
put at such low priority that it is effectively abandoned
--
*From:* Kevin Driedger linuxbox+f...@gmail.com
*To:* Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com; Fundamentals of New Computing
fonc@vpri.org
*Sent:* Monday, September 2, 2013 2:41 PM
*Subject:* Re: [fonc] Final STEP progress report abandoned?
Alan,
Can you give us any more details or direction
.
-Carl
** **
*From:* fonc-boun...@vpri.org [mailto:fonc-boun...@vpri.org] *On Behalf
Of *David Barbour
*Sent:* Tuesday, September 03, 2013 3:50 PM
*To:* Fundamentals of New Computing
*Subject:* Re: [fonc] Final STEP progress report abandoned?
** **
what will computing
I've heavily abridged your message David; sorry if I've dropped important
context. My words below...
On Sep 3, 2013, at 3:04 PM, David Barbour dmbarb...@gmail.com wrote:
Even better if the languages are good for exploration by genetic programming
- i.e. easily sliced, spliced, rearranged,
With Forth, you are probably reaching for the definition of a concatenative
language like Joy.
APL, J, K, etc. would also qualify.
On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 4:43 PM, Casey Ransberger
casey.obrie...@gmail.comwrote:
I've heavily abridged your message David; sorry if I've dropped important
Factor would be another decent example of a concatenative language.
But I think arrowized programming models would work better. They aren't
limited to a stack, and instead can compute rich types that can be
evaluated as documents or diagrams. Further, they're really easy to model
in a
Yes, in the case of FORTH, the concatenative property is what's interesting in
this regard.
It yields a kind of syntaxlessness that's interesting. I have to admit no
real familiarity with APL (outside of some stunningly elegant solutions I've
read to problems on Project Euler!)
Thanks for
Sorry, I've missed a beat somewhere. Arrowized? What's this bit with arrows?
I saw the term arrow earlier and I think I've assumed that it was some slang
for the FRP thing (if you think about it, that makes some sense.) But starting
with intuitive assumptions is usually a bad plan, so I'd love
edwa...@csail.mit.edu
*To:* fonc@vpri.org
*Sent:* Tuesday, September 3, 2013 4:44 AM
*Subject:* Re: [fonc] Final STEP progress report abandoned?
That's great news! We desperately need fresh air. As you know, the way a
problem is framed bounds its solutions. Do you already know what problems
Computing
fonc@vpri.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2013 7:25 PM
Subject: Re: [fonc] Final STEP progress report abandoned?
Hey Alan,
With regards to burning issues and better directions, I want to highlight
the communicating with aliens problem as worth of remembering. Machines
figuring out
Arrows are essentially a formalization of box-and-wire paradigms.
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Haskell/Understanding_arrows
Arrows represent a rigid structure for dataflow, but are just expressive
enough for non-linear composition of subprograms (i.e. parallel pipelines
that branch and merge).
Haven't seen much regarding this for a while. Has it been been abandoned
or put at such low priority that it is effectively abandoned?
___
fonc mailing list
fonc@vpri.org
http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
time for
the last 5-6 months.
Cheers,
Alan
From: Dan Melchione dm.f...@melchione.com
To: fonc@vpri.org
Sent: Monday, September 2, 2013 10:40 AM
Subject: [fonc] Final STEP progress report abandoned?
Haven't seen much regarding this for a while. Has it been
*To:* fonc@vpri.org
*Sent:* Monday, September 2, 2013 10:40 AM
*Subject:* [fonc] Final STEP progress report abandoned?
Haven't seen much regarding this for a while. Has it been been abandoned
or put at such low priority that it is effectively abandoned
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