Re: [fonc] Flat text and 1D syntax considered harmful

2013-07-21 Thread Pavel Bažant
On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 2:43 PM, Gath-Gealaich gath.na.geala...@gmail.comwrote: On Sat, 20 Jul 2013 14:28:59 +0200 Pavel Bažant pbaz...@gmail.com wrote: On the other hand, imagine math notated the same way programming languages are. That would be awful! IMHO, it is awful for PL, too

Re: [fonc] Flat text and 1D syntax considered harmful

2013-07-21 Thread Pavel Bažant
There are various ways to present the same structure. Trees, for example, can be represented top-down, bottom-up, left-to-right, dynamically (front to bottom), graphically, textually, etc. Each representation can also lead to different ways of editing them. So each application wants to

Re: [fonc] Flat text and 1D syntax considered harmful

2013-07-21 Thread Pavel Bažant
Well, I'm not a mathematician, but when I have to do equations, the problem I have in doing math on a screen doesn't come from the text matrix, but rather from the lack of automatic tools to manipulate the equations. On the paper, hand written math notation is optimized enough so you can

Re: [fonc] Flat text and 1D syntax considered harmful

2013-07-21 Thread Pavel Bažant
This! There have been so many attempts - by people who were by no means stupid - to replace text as the primary representation of code! And ALL of them have failed, miserably! The best anyone has ever achieved was to enthuse a few managers, much to the detriment of the engineers who

Re: [fonc] Flat text and 1D syntax considered harmful

2013-07-21 Thread Pavel Bažant
Thank you for the pointers to potentially relevant work. PB On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 12:43 AM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com wrote: I believe that X3D-Edit provides dual views. On Jul 20, 2013 5:26 PM, John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com wrote: Sorry if I mixed 2D and 3D ideas here. On Jul

Re: [fonc] Flat text and 1D syntax considered harmful

2013-07-21 Thread Pavel Bažant
Yes, what you write is what I had in mind. But this would really be abandoning 1d representation. I consider this to be a very important conceptual shift, not a mere moderate change! The presentation would be still 1d-like, but this is not important -- you may very well switch among several

Re: [fonc] Personal Programming Environment as Extension of Self

2013-09-24 Thread Pavel Bažant
I don't know the details of your language, but I see two possibilities: 1) If the textual representation of your language is parenthesis-balanced by definition, just do what Lisp does. 2) If not, format quoted text like quote number_of_chars char char char Yes I know 2) is fragile, but so is

Re: [fonc] What's wrong with storing programs as text?

2013-10-14 Thread Pavel Bažant
I agree with your analysis. I especially like the fact that the editor is general purpose. The screenshots are already very cool!! Will check this program when time allows. On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 1:48 PM, Levente Mészáros levente.mesza...@gmail.com wrote: Dear list members, Let me talk