Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Olivier Mascia]

> Le 14 juin 2018 à 22:47, Warren Young  a écrit :
> 
>> having to have browser tabs open for dozens of web forums
> 
> I bookmark all of the sites I need to go to regularly and place them in a 
> folder in my browser’s bookmark bar so that I can open them all at once with 
> a Cmd- or Ctrl-Click on the folder.  As I read each forum, I close that tab.
> 
> I actually keep two such folders, “Daily” and “Weekly,” suggesting my 
> visiting frequency, which is set by how often I expect interesting content to 
> appear.

I have a similar routine, but does so all within my email application, which I 
find much more effective for the task.  I'm happy you found what works for you. 
It just doesn't match my preferences, but that is OK and increases cultural 
richness.

-- 
Best Regards, Meilleures salutations, Met vriendelijke groeten,
Olivier Mascia


___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users

Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Olivier Mascia]

> Le 14 juin 2018 à 22:30, Thomas  a écrit :
> 
> Web forums are much more superior than mailing lists, in any possible 
> direction.
> There's nothing a mailing list can provide a forum can't, since it doesn't 
> exclude email notifications.
> However, there's loads of benefits a forum provides a mailing list can't 
> catch up with.
> That's the reason why mailing lists are disappearing.

I respectfully don't agree.

Web forums truly have the advantage of being an archive of previous 
conversations, making it easy for new subscribers to browse or search and 
partially read previous content at first.  There are a number of third-parties 
aggregators that do the same for mailing-lists, but indeed such an archive run 
by the mailing-list owners themselves is probably superior if it can at the 
same time be used by web forums lovers to read and participate in the 
conversation group.

There is nothing right in trying to persuade people that one's idea is 
everybody's wish and best for them all.  People of a certain age know that 
History, as well as on a much less tragic way, computer industry, has too many 
examples.

-- 
Best Regards, Meilleures salutations, Met vriendelijke groeten,
Olivier Mascia


___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users

Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Olivier Mascia]

> Le 14 juin 2018 à 22:23, Thomas  a écrit :
> 
>> Mailing list messages are easily filtered.
>> I have one mailbox for each mailing list I subscribe to, and I read through 
>> the messages in list order, which makes it easy to mentally switch gears 
>> from one project to the next.
> 
> Most people only have one mailbox. I presume you're referring to folders.
> 
> 
>> If one project gets out of hand for a while, I can mark only that one 
>> mailbox as “read” without declaring email bankruptcy on all my other email.
> 
> Forum software offers the very same functionality but that's not the direct 
> purpose of it. In a mailing list you're either "in" or "out". A forum 
> provides all possible options.

I routinely follow and participate in about 18 mailing-lists. They're all 
conveniently aggregated in folders, which is done automatically by rules 
applied by my IMAP mail server upon arrival.That's comfortable and I have 
all of it through a single user interface: my email reader.  I can easily 
full-text search on a folder, some or all of them. With a decent email reader 
and a mailbox managed by a decent, standard compliant, IMAP server, these 
actions are effective (server-side filtering for instance). I can also set 
expiration rules to automatically purge older messages, depending on the folder.

I can't even imagine myself finding the time and will to visit about 12 to 15 
different URLs, user interfaces, to browse and read what might interest me. And 
then face as much different interfaces to reply conveniently.

The right solution to please every wishes is to have a perfectly integrated 
dual-interface system where the mailing-list and the webforum is *one*. 
Displaying, encouraging proper threading on the webforum, respectfully matching 
the email threading. And reciprocal. Such that it wouldn't make any difference 
if I post per email, reply/quote per email or through the webforum. I'd be free 
to ignore the existence of the webforum as much as you could ignore it is a 
mailing list at the same time. Each subscriber electing to have the content 
delivery additionally per email, or not.

Any webforum solution with an email notification mechanism in the style "hey 
someone just posted a reply" or "there have been 122 posts since your last 
visit" is useless to me.  This is worse than not getting email at all: it 
pollutes the mailbox with contentless and countless reminders, yet doesn't 
solve the time-consuming issue to having to pull information from one webforum 
at a time, using all their different user interfaces.

-- 
Best Regards, Meilleures salutations, Met vriendelijke groeten,
Olivier Mascia


___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users

Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Warren Young]

On Jun 14, 2018, at 9:34 PM, Warren Young  wrote:
> 
> maybe full SMTP support in Fossil wouldn’t be justified, and it would require 
> integration with a local MTA instead, to push the burden off to the other 
> component.  That wouldn’t be very Fossil, but it would be pragmatic.

On second thought, that’s not true.  Fossil currently does not try to implement 
the client or server sides of TLS.  It delegates to OpenSSL for the former and 
to an HTTPS proxy for the latter.

This may be another area where Fossil is right to delegate.
___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users

Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Warren Young]

On Jun 14, 2018, at 9:05 PM, Shal Farley wrote:
> 
> On 2018-06-14 1:47 PM, Warren Young wrote:
> 
>> Would you rather see drh spending time fighting spam or writing useful 
>> software?

> I think that's the best reason for outsourcing the mailing list problem

Agreed, which is why I’ve also been on the “keep the mailing list” side of the 
argument: the difficulty in implementing SMTP and its raft of concomitant 
standards.

There are pros and cons on both sides, and the community has listed several of 
each.

drh has his poll results now, so I think it’s now time to start winding these 
threads down and wait to see how he chooses to spend his time.

> I don't think that choice precludes work on building something integrated 
> with fossil that may be interesting and useful for drh and for us.

Also agreed.  In that case, then maybe full SMTP support in Fossil wouldn’t be 
justified, and it would require integration with a local MTA instead, to push 
the burden off to the other component.  That wouldn’t be very Fossil, but it 
would be pragmatic.

> Someone else here suggested already that what works best as a component of 
> fossil in support of a development team might not be the same solution as 
> what works best for an open community of users and developers asking and 
> answering questions.

That was me.  Developer list != user list.  Different technologies for each 
within a single project are sometimes justified.

> Yes, I'm a mailing-list advocate, and hence a dinosaur.

It’s one thing to label yourself such, and quite another for others to throw 
that label at you as an accusation.  Ahem. :)

(Speaking as one who’s been using the Internet since shortly after bang paths 
went out of style.)
___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users

Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Shal Farley]

On 2018-06-14 1:47 PM, Warren Young wrote:

I’m not aware of any mailing list that doesn’t require a password, if only via 
some outer SSO provider.  Such a thing would be a spammer’s paradise, if it 
existed.
In Groups.io  creating and using a password is 
optional, because some users expect logging into a web site to work that 
way. The other method is having the site email you a login link whenever 
you need a new session.



The closest to your usability ideal that I’ve seen is automatic password resets 
via email, which is itself a vulnerability, since it means anyone who can 
access your email account is able to take over any such service associated with 
that email account.
That is a valid criticism of Groups.io's technique. On the other hand, 
it is a mailing list service - in some regards an extension of your 
email service. Just don't post your most guarded secrets to the list.



Would you rather see drh spending time fighting spam or writing useful software?
I think that's the best reason for outsourcing the mailing list problem, 
and the reason I spoke up here in the first place. That and the deep 
development effort required and ongoing maintenance to keep up with the 
changing deliverability landscape as mailbox providers evolve their 
anti-abuse defenses.


As I said in my first, I don't think that choice precludes work on 
building something integrated with fossil that may be interesting and 
useful for drh and for us. Someone else here suggested already that what 
works best as a component of fossil in support of a development team 
might not be the same solution as what works best for an open community 
of users and developers asking and answering questions.


Yes, I'm a mailing-list advocate, and hence a dinosaur. Which, on /this/ 
list in particular, is about the most hilarious insult I've seen in 
quite some time.


Shal

___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users

Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas]

On 14/06/18 18:07, Thomas wrote:
> On 2018-06-14 23:19, Warren Young wrote:
>> I just checked, and for the flight I’ll be on, it’ll cost me about
>> 1/10 the monthly cost of my residential Internet service, per
>> device.  If I want to use my phone, tablet, and laptop, that’s 3/10
>> my monthly cost for a few hours of terrible service.
>
> That means again that it's probably better not to answer any support
> requests from this mailing list, which you will have downloaded eons
> ago already nonetheless (since you got no internet access). Your
> replies might be terribly outdated once you roll in to the nearest
> free wifi.
>
> I actually find it quite amusing that some people seem to be so
> personally involved in their favour of a mailing list over a forum,
> while this discussion has ceased for pretty much any other software
> product already, and many people even getting very personal, including
> insults.

For me what is amusing  is that people thinks that their reality defines
the reality of everyone else. In several countries in Latin America,
Asia and Africa (yes they're still a different part of the world in the
XXI century, despite of the efforts of "colonizers" to deny their
individuality since eons) there is not online all time and answering an
email from 3 days ago is not like being disconnected from centuries,
because three days still felt like 3 days and not like centuries in
those places.

Anything that allows offline participation is really appreciated over
the so called "Global South". I have been using Discourse Forum, with
mail suscription and mailing lists and I can see the advantages of the
first for a more peripheral participation and mailing list in
communities where I want to be more involved.

Just my 2 pesos, from another perspective in another place of the world.

Cheers,

Offray

Cheers,

Offray

___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users

Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Thomas]

On 2018-06-14 23:19, Warren Young wrote:

I just checked, and for the flight I’ll be on, it’ll cost me about 1/10 the 
monthly cost of my residential Internet service, per device.  If I want to use 
my phone, tablet, and laptop, that’s 3/10 my monthly cost for a few hours of 
terrible service.


That means again that it's probably better not to answer any support 
requests from this mailing list, which you will have downloaded eons ago 
already nonetheless (since you got no internet access). Your replies 
might be terribly outdated once you roll in to the nearest free wifi.


I actually find it quite amusing that some people seem to be so 
personally involved in their favour of a mailing list over a forum, 
while this discussion has ceased for pretty much any other software 
product already, and many people even getting very personal, including 
insults.

___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users

Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Warren Young]

On Jun 14, 2018, at 3:36 PM, Thomas  wrote:
> 
> On 2018-06-14 22:21, Warren Young wrote:
>> I expect to have no Internet access in the plane I will be aboard shortly.
> 
> I'm not aware of any airline that doesn't provide internet access on 
> long-haul flights. Is there still one left?

I just checked, and for the flight I’ll be on, it’ll cost me about 1/10 the 
monthly cost of my residential Internet service, per device.  If I want to use 
my phone, tablet, and laptop, that’s 3/10 my monthly cost for a few hours of 
terrible service.

…which you apparently think I should pay just so the software I use doesn’t 
have to deal with the offline access case.

You’re very generous with the contents of my wallet.

While on last week’s off-network trip, I tallied the number of apps on my 
tablet that were useless without an Internet connection.  It was about 75% 
before I gave up in disgust.

I decided to do that tally after being unable to move a document from one app 
to the another on the same tablet, because the receiving app only offered a 
“send it to a datacenter in Washington state” import option.

This is not progress.
___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users

Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Thomas]

In that case I'm sorry that your email replies to a mailing list will be 
outdated by the time you'll reach civilisation again.


Better don't reply then.


On 2018-06-14 22:38, Roy Keene wrote:

Yes.  Quite a lot.

On Thu, 14 Jun 2018, Thomas wrote:


On 2018-06-14 22:21, Warren Young wrote:
I expect to have no Internet access in the plane I will be aboard 
shortly.


I'm not aware of any airline that doesn't provide internet access on 
long-haul flights. Is there still one left?

___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users


___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users


___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users

Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Roy Keene]

Yes.  Quite a lot.

On Thu, 14 Jun 2018, Thomas wrote:


On 2018-06-14 22:21, Warren Young wrote:

I expect to have no Internet access in the plane I will be aboard shortly.


I'm not aware of any airline that doesn't provide internet access on 
long-haul flights. Is there still one left?

___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users


___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users

Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Thomas]

On 2018-06-14 22:21, Warren Young wrote:

I expect to have no Internet access in the plane I will be aboard shortly.


I'm not aware of any airline that doesn't provide internet access on 
long-haul flights. Is there still one left?

___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users

Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Thomas]

On 2018-06-14 22:21, Warren Young wrote:

What of the other direction?  People like Jörg are more likely to be answering 
questions than asking them.  Why not write answers while offline, then sync the 
answers when back on-network?  Email lists, Usenet, and my proposed Fossil 
Forum Feature allow this.  Web forums generally do not.


Yeah, I've seen this before.

- 1) Can you help me please?
- 1) Ah, sorry, solved it myself.
- 2) Reply: you should do xy...

:-)

When you're offline, you really shouldn't touch any conversation.

___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users

Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Warren Young]

On Jun 14, 2018, at 3:10 PM, Thomas  wrote:
> 
> On 2018-06-14 21:47, Joerg Sonnenberger wrote:
>> I've had to deal with my share of fori. Frankly, they all suck for power
>> users, often badly. While mailing lists do tend to be a bit more
>> annoying than newsgroups, they nevertheless share the majority of
>> advantages. Offline access, decent filtering etc. Heck, a lot of fori
>> programs still hasn't even managed good threading.
> 
> Another example of the past. We're online 24/7 nowadays. Offline access is 
> not required anymore.

I was offline for about 3 days solid, less than a week ago.  No Internet access 
at all, despite having a charged mobile phone with me at the time.

I have made Fossil repo commits from inside an RV, miles from the nearest wifi.

I expect to have no Internet access in the plane I will be aboard shortly.

> In case you really need some help while offline, I cannot imagine how you'd 
> be able to get a request for help out better via mail than dropping off a 
> forum post when you're offline.

What of the other direction?  People like Jörg are more likely to be answering 
questions than asking them.  Why not write answers while offline, then sync the 
answers when back on-network?  Email lists, Usenet, and my proposed Fossil 
Forum Feature allow this.  Web forums generally do not.
___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users

Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Roy Keene]

http://rkeene.org/viewer/tmp/email.png.htm

:-)

And yes, this is my primary MUA -- not something I setup to reply to this 
email.


On Thu, 14 Jun 2018, Thomas wrote:


On 2018-06-14 20:51, John Long wrote:

A decent email client can run on a terminal, over ssh or telnet, etc.
and can handle all sorts of filtering and searching. Most mailing lists


I just checked the calendar. It's the 21st century here. Not sure how many 
terminals, telnets or SSH sessions average users got open but I reckon that a 
good guess of less than a promille might be more precise than you may 
imagine...



___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users


___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users

Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Thomas]

On 2018-06-14 21:47, Joerg Sonnenberger wrote:

I've had to deal with my share of fori. Frankly, they all suck for power
users, often badly. While mailing lists do tend to be a bit more
annoying than newsgroups, they nevertheless share the majority of
advantages. Offline access, decent filtering etc. Heck, a lot of fori
programs still hasn't even managed good threading.


Another example of the past. We're online 24/7 nowadays. Offline access 
is not required anymore.


In case you really need some help while offline, I cannot imagine how 
you'd be able to get a request for help out better via mail than 
dropping off a forum post when you're offline. - Ouch! :-(

___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users

Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Thomas]

On 2018-06-14 21:40, jungle Boogie wrote:

On 14 June 2018 at 13:30, Thomas  wrote:

Web forums are much more superior than mailing lists, in any possible
direction.



Ah, yes, superior.
https://xkcd.com/979/

At this rate, I suggest we start using reddit more, it's at least more
diverse than a single stand alone forum.
https://www.reddit.com/r/sqlite/


Dinosaurs died out around 60 000 000 years before humans evolved.
No one can escape progress, no matter how hard some are clinging on the 
past.

___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users

Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Joerg Sonnenberger]

On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 09:23:14PM +0100, Thomas wrote:
> On 2018-06-14 20:59, Warren Young wrote:
> > On Jun 14, 2018, at 1:36 PM, Thomas  wrote:
> > > 
> > > no one wants to see all those in their inbox.
> > 
> > Mailing list messages are easily filtered.
> > 
> > I have one mailbox for each mailing list I subscribe to, and I read through 
> > the messages in list order, which makes it easy to mentally switch gears 
> > from one project to the next.
> 
> Most people only have one mailbox. I presume you're referring to folders.

OK, I guess that makes it pretty clear that your knowledge of mail
handling is limited. That's unsurprising, given that the majority of
fori proponents never really managed basic things like mail filtering...

> > If one project gets out of hand for a while, I can mark only that one 
> > mailbox as “read” without declaring email bankruptcy on all my other email.
> 
> Forum software offers the very same functionality but that's not the direct
> purpose of it. In a mailing list you're either "in" or "out". A forum
> provides all possible options.

I've had to deal with my share of fori. Frankly, they all suck for power
users, often badly. While mailing lists do tend to be a bit more
annoying than newsgroups, they nevertheless share the majority of
advantages. Offline access, decent filtering etc. Heck, a lot of fori
programs still hasn't even managed good threading.

You can't search a mailing list? Stop using Outlook.

Joerg
___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users

Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Warren Young]

On Jun 14, 2018, at 1:51 PM, John Long  wrote:
> 
> having to have browser tabs open for dozens of web forums

I bookmark all of the sites I need to go to regularly and place them in a 
folder in my browser’s bookmark bar so that I can open them all at once with a 
Cmd- or Ctrl-Click on the folder.  As I read each forum, I close that tab.

I actually keep two such folders, “Daily” and “Weekly,” suggesting my visiting 
frequency, which is set by how often I expect interesting content to appear.

> having to come up with and manage
> passwords for each of those

I’m not aware of any mailing list that doesn’t require a password, if only via 
some outer SSO provider.  Such a thing would be a spammer’s paradise, if it 
existed.

I don’t see this web forum depending on someone else’s SSO solution.  (OAuth, 
OpenID, etc.)  That would be very un-Fossil.

> and have to actively monitor each one to
> see if anything of interest happens to appear

Yes, just like Usenet. :)

Opening a folder of bookmarks in a browser isn’t much different than opening a 
Usenet client that’s subscribed to an equivalent number of groups.  Both 
aggregate access to many fora, opened with a single user action.

> Most mailing lists assign you a password

I subscribe to a whole lot of mailing lists, and I can’t come up with one where 
I was given the password instead of having to generate it with my password 
manager.

“A small minority,” I believe, but not “most.”

Certainly not GNU Mailman as configured at fossil-scm.org or at sqlite.org, at 
any rate.

> and you don't even have to keep track of it; many
> email you password reminders on a regular basis

If the mailing list is able to email you your password, it’s ripe for attack: 
they cannot possibly be hashing and salting their passwords, as is industry 
best practice:

https://security.stackexchange.com/q/51959

(Pro tip: if a web site has a maximum password length limit under 32 characters 
or so, chances are good that they’re storing your password in plaintext, since 
hashing the password inherently converts it to a fixed length.  Higher limits 
are more likely input sanity limits rather than risk indicators.)

The closest to your usability ideal that I’ve seen is automatic password resets 
via email, which is itself a vulnerability, since it means anyone who can 
access your email account is able to take over any such service associated with 
that email account.  This is what happened in the famous Mat Honan identity 
theft:

https://www.wired.com/2012/08/apple-amazon-mat-honan-hacking/

People say, “Oh, it’s just my Google account, who cares if a bad guy takes that 
over?”  This being the account that is associated with their Android phone, 
which is associated with their mobile phone company account, which is 
associated with their credit card account, which is associated with a large 
chunk of their financial life, so now they’re pwned.

Whatever drh decides to build, using a significant slice of his limited time on 
this planet, which time I have no call on, I expect he will take password 
security seriously, evidenced by Fossil’s users table:

https://www.fossil-scm.org/xfer/doc/trunk/www/tech_overview.wiki

(Section 2.2.4.)

> Web forums are right out.

Would you rather see drh spending time fighting spam or writing useful software?

At least if he spends his time building a forum system atop Fossil, we can all 
use it on our own projects as well.  His time spent fighting email spam has 
much more ephemeral benefits.
___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users

Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[jungle Boogie]

On 14 June 2018 at 13:30, Thomas  wrote:
> Web forums are much more superior than mailing lists, in any possible
> direction.
>

Ah, yes, superior.
https://xkcd.com/979/

At this rate, I suggest we start using reddit more, it's at least more
diverse than a single stand alone forum.
https://www.reddit.com/r/sqlite/
___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users

Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Thomas]

Web forums are much more superior than mailing lists, in any possible 
direction.


There's nothing a mailing list can provide a forum can't, since it 
doesn't exclude email notifications.


However, there's loads of benefits a forum provides a mailing list can't 
catch up with.


That's the reason why mailing lists are disappearing.


On 2018-06-14 21:02, sky5w...@gmail.com wrote:

  Ha! I can see there are strong opposing opinions for mail vs forum.
I find forums more neatly packaged.
Mailing lists are not easily browsed or searched for relevant terms.
Some run on mail topics are a pain to find the nugget of information
desired.
Forum responses can have votes or kudos assigned which hasten searches.
Still, you will suffer spammers in the forum as bots have figured the user
request pages.
With Fossil's unversioned content, the forum or mail bloat can be minimized.

On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 3:59 PM, Warren Young  wrote:


On Jun 14, 2018, at 1:36 PM, Thomas  wrote:


no one wants to see all those in their inbox.


Mailing list messages are easily filtered.

I have one mailbox for each mailing list I subscribe to, and I read
through the messages in list order, which makes it easy to mentally switch
gears from one project to the next.

If one project gets out of hand for a while, I can mark only that one
mailbox as “read” without declaring email bankruptcy on all my other email.
___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users





___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users



___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users

Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Thomas]

On 2018-06-14 20:59, Warren Young wrote:

On Jun 14, 2018, at 1:36 PM, Thomas  wrote:


no one wants to see all those in their inbox.


Mailing list messages are easily filtered.

I have one mailbox for each mailing list I subscribe to, and I read through the 
messages in list order, which makes it easy to mentally switch gears from one 
project to the next.


Most people only have one mailbox. I presume you're referring to folders.



If one project gets out of hand for a while, I can mark only that one mailbox 
as “read” without declaring email bankruptcy on all my other email.


Forum software offers the very same functionality but that's not the 
direct purpose of it. In a mailing list you're either "in" or "out". A 
forum provides all possible options.

___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users

Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[sky5walk]

 Ha! I can see there are strong opposing opinions for mail vs forum.
I find forums more neatly packaged.
Mailing lists are not easily browsed or searched for relevant terms.
Some run on mail topics are a pain to find the nugget of information
desired.
Forum responses can have votes or kudos assigned which hasten searches.
Still, you will suffer spammers in the forum as bots have figured the user
request pages.
With Fossil's unversioned content, the forum or mail bloat can be minimized.

On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 3:59 PM, Warren Young  wrote:

> On Jun 14, 2018, at 1:36 PM, Thomas  wrote:
> >
> > no one wants to see all those in their inbox.
>
> Mailing list messages are easily filtered.
>
> I have one mailbox for each mailing list I subscribe to, and I read
> through the messages in list order, which makes it easy to mentally switch
> gears from one project to the next.
>
> If one project gets out of hand for a while, I can mark only that one
> mailbox as “read” without declaring email bankruptcy on all my other email.
> ___
> fossil-users mailing list
> fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
> http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
>
___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users

Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Thomas]

On 2018-06-14 20:51, John Long wrote:

A decent email client can run on a terminal, over ssh or telnet, etc.
and can handle all sorts of filtering and searching. Most mailing lists


I just checked the calendar. It's the 21st century here. Not sure how 
many terminals, telnets or SSH sessions average users got open but I 
reckon that a good guess of less than a promille might be more precise 
than you may imagine...



___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users

Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Warren Young]

On Jun 14, 2018, at 1:36 PM, Thomas  wrote:
> 
> no one wants to see all those in their inbox.

Mailing list messages are easily filtered.  

I have one mailbox for each mailing list I subscribe to, and I read through the 
messages in list order, which makes it easy to mentally switch gears from one 
project to the next.

If one project gets out of hand for a while, I can mark only that one mailbox 
as “read” without declaring email bankruptcy on all my other email.
___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users

Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[John Long]

On Thu, 2018-06-14 at 20:36 +0100, Thomas wrote:
> On 2018-06-14 17:47, Roy Keene wrote:
> > If it's any conideration, if it's not a mailing list or something
> > else 
> > pushed to me, I'll never see it.  A fossil users' forum will never
> > get 
> > checked (pulled) by me since I am just too lazy to remember to do
> > so on 
> > any regular frequency.  There may be others like me who are busy
> > but can 
> > occasionally check email.

Agreed 100%. This is the lowest noise option.

> 
> Mailing lists in general are disappearing and forums are coming in
> more 
> and more.

Yes, the world is going to hell in our lifetime. Dare I suggest we bin
all the mailing list ideas and go back to Usenet?


>  There surely are loads of reasons but I'd like to only point 
> out that once the amount of posts increases no one wants to see all 
> those in their inbox.

It's a huge pain in the ass to have to sign up for anything just to ask
a question or report a bug. Huge.

But as offensive and unmanageable as that is, having to have browser
tabs open for dozens of web forums, having to come up with and manage
passwords for each of those, and have to actively monitor each one to
see if anything of interest happens to appear, is much worse.

A decent email client can run on a terminal, over ssh or telnet, etc.
and can handle all sorts of filtering and searching. Most mailing lists
assign you a password and you don't even have to keep track of it; many
 email you password reminders on a regular basis and you don't even
need it until you want to unsubscribe.

Web forums are right out.

/jl

___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users

Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Thomas]

On 2018-06-14 17:47, Roy Keene wrote:
If it's any conideration, if it's not a mailing list or something else 
pushed to me, I'll never see it.  A fossil users' forum will never get 
checked (pulled) by me since I am just too lazy to remember to do so on 
any regular frequency.  There may be others like me who are busy but can 
occasionally check email.


Mailing lists in general are disappearing and forums are coming in more 
and more. There surely are loads of reasons but I'd like to only point 
out that once the amount of posts increases no one wants to see all 
those in their inbox.

___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users

Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Warren Young]

On Jun 14, 2018, at 10:51 AM, Richard Hipp  wrote:
> 
> On 6/14/18, Roy Keene  wrote:
>> If it's any conideration, if it's not a mailing list or something else
>> pushed to me, I'll never see it.
> 
> I agree.  Any solution must support email notification.  Am working on
> that now.  But, given all the security constraints surrounding email
> these days, it is a tough problem.

I’ve just thought of a reason that you cannot simply send outbound email to a 
local MTA and have it deliver it for you, while conforming to all of the 
relevant RFCs: when the mailing list members receive the message, some may want 
to reply, and that would then go back to the same MTA which would then be 
unable to process the mail correctly.

An MTA plugin and/or hand-configuration to integrate Fossil Forums with the MTA 
could solve it, but now you’re adding complexity.  I suspect many haven’t put 
their public Fossil instances behind an HTTPS proxy for the same reason, and we 
should take that as a caution.

There are definite advantages to Fossil Forums being its own MTA.
___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users

Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Roy Keene]

As someone who rarely posts messages and mostly reads the posts, I 
wouldn't be affected by requiring posts be done via an authenticated 
web-based system.  RSS may even be an option over email for consuming and 
it can have links for authenticated posting.  I haven't read all the 
emails on this thread so sorry if this is already been hashed out.


On Thu, 14 Jun 2018, Richard Hipp wrote:


On 6/14/18, Roy Keene  wrote:

If it's any conideration, if it's not a mailing list or something else
pushed to me, I'll never see it.


I agree.  Any solution must support email notification.  Am working on
that now.  But, given all the security constraints surrounding email
these days, it is a tough problem.
--
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users


___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users

Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Richard Hipp]

On 6/14/18, Roy Keene  wrote:
> If it's any conideration, if it's not a mailing list or something else
> pushed to me, I'll never see it.

I agree.  Any solution must support email notification.  Am working on
that now.  But, given all the security constraints surrounding email
these days, it is a tough problem.
-- 
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users

Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Richard Hipp]

On 6/14/18, Warren Young  wrote:
> It might
> be that the internal developer discussions use this proposed Fossil Forum
> feature and the user discussions are held elsewhere.

My plan was to set up an entirely new Fossil repo just to host the
Forum for SQLite - a repo that was separate from the SQLite source
code repo and holds only the forum.  Call it https://sqlite.org/forum

On the Fossil website, on the other hand, the entire website is just a
single Fossil instance.  And so on that case it does seem to make more
sense to put the forum in the same repo as the source code.

A key point here is you get to choose.  Easily.  Fossil is (or at
least should be) so simple to set up that people can and do decide to
use Fossil to host just a forum, or just a wiki, or just a ticketing
system, without being required to use all the rest of the
capabilities.
-- 
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users

Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Roy Keene]

If it's any conideration, if it's not a mailing list or something else 
pushed to me, I'll never see it.  A fossil users' forum will never get 
checked (pulled) by me since I am just too lazy to remember to do so on 
any regular frequency.  There may be others like me who are busy but can 
occasionally check email.


On Thu, 14 Jun 2018, Warren Young wrote:


On Jun 14, 2018, at 4:29 AM, Dominique Devienne  wrote:


Last discussion/thread on moving away from MLs on the SQLite list showed a 
clear bias
against using a forum over a ML IMHO, especially from long time contributors. 
My $0.02... —DD


I was one of those arguing in favor of mailing lists.

To me, the question comes down to two key questions:

1. Which gets us back into operation faster?  If the effort to maintain a 
mailing list in today’s inimical environment is greater than the effort to 
develop an alternate solution that would sidestep these problems, it’s really 
hard to justify sticking with mailing lists.

2. Does switching add important and valuable new capabilities?

Note the qualifiers.  Animoji are not important to the SQLite or Fossil 
development projects, and their value is very low.  Integration with the Fossil 
DVCS may be very valuable and could become important if it helps win converts.


One new thought since my prior post: many projects (including Fossil and 
SQLite) have separate user and developer communication channels.  It might be 
that the internal developer discussions use this proposed Fossil Forum feature 
and the user discussions are held elsewhere.

In one of my Fossil-based projects, we have a public Google Group for 
discussions that may not even touch on the software development project, with 
developer discussions hidden away in private email, even though there’s nothing 
particularly personal about the discussions.

I mentioned Fossil artifact links in a prior email.  I’m frequently 
hand-crafting these in emails to other developers on the project to refer to 
some checkin, wiki edit, etc.  It’s annoying.
___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users

Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Warren Young]

On Jun 14, 2018, at 4:29 AM, Dominique Devienne  wrote:
> 
> Last discussion/thread on moving away from MLs on the SQLite list showed a 
> clear bias
> against using a forum over a ML IMHO, especially from long time contributors. 
> My $0.02... —DD

I was one of those arguing in favor of mailing lists.

To me, the question comes down to two key questions:

1. Which gets us back into operation faster?  If the effort to maintain a 
mailing list in today’s inimical environment is greater than the effort to 
develop an alternate solution that would sidestep these problems, it’s really 
hard to justify sticking with mailing lists.

2. Does switching add important and valuable new capabilities?

Note the qualifiers.  Animoji are not important to the SQLite or Fossil 
development projects, and their value is very low.  Integration with the Fossil 
DVCS may be very valuable and could become important if it helps win converts.


One new thought since my prior post: many projects (including Fossil and 
SQLite) have separate user and developer communication channels.  It might be 
that the internal developer discussions use this proposed Fossil Forum feature 
and the user discussions are held elsewhere.

In one of my Fossil-based projects, we have a public Google Group for 
discussions that may not even touch on the software development project, with 
developer discussions hidden away in private email, even though there’s nothing 
particularly personal about the discussions.

I mentioned Fossil artifact links in a prior email.  I’m frequently 
hand-crafting these in emails to other developers on the project to refer to 
some checkin, wiki edit, etc.  It’s annoying.
___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users

Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Gour]

On Thu, 14 Jun 2018 12:29:40 +0200
Dominique Devienne 
wrote:

> Still, I like MLs best... If the only issue is the subscription part,
> lets fix that only?

+1

> Last discussion/thread on moving away from MLs on the SQLite list showed a
> clear bias against using a forum over a ML IMHO, especially from long time
> contributors. My $0.02... --DD

I fully agree with keeping good old MLs. ;)


Sincerely,
Gour

-- 
There is no possibility of one's becoming a yogī, O Arjuna,
if one eats too much or eats too little, sleeps too much
or does not sleep enough.


___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users

Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Dominique Devienne]

On Wed, Jun 13, 2018 at 9:00 PM Richard Hipp  wrote:

> Discourse is moving the right direction, I think.  [...]
>
> Does anybody else have any experience with Discourse, good or bad?
>

We have an internal instance, and I've had good (but limited) experience
with it.

Editing works well, quoting previous post and inserting responses inline
works well.
There are categories to organise posts into, setup for admins I believe.
Editing is quite similar to StackOverflow, but given Jeff Atwood's
involvement that's hardly surprising.
Some gamification with badges and stuff, like SO again. Email notifications
possible. But AFAIK, no
possibility to reply by email...

Still, I like MLs best... If the only issue is the subscription part, lets
fix that only?

Last discussion/thread on moving away from MLs on the SQLite list showed a
clear bias
against using a forum over a ML IMHO, especially from long time
contributors. My $0.02... --DD
___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users

Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Richard Hipp]

On 6/13/18, Svyatoslav Mishyn  wrote:
>
> Another alternative would be nimforum:
> https://github.com/nim-lang/nimforum
>

It does not appear to have email notification.  Unless I overlooked something.
-- 
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users

Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Svyatoslav Mishyn]

(Wed, 13 Jun 14:59) Richard Hipp:
> Cross-posted to the fossil-users mailing list since www.fossil-scm.org
> and www.sqlite.org are the same machine and both mailing lists are
> impacted by the current problem.
> 
> On 6/13/18, Luiz Américo  wrote:
> > How about using https://www.discourse.org/ ?
> >
> > Open source projects can use for free
> 
> Thanks for the pointer, Luiz.
> 
> Discourse is moving the right direction, I think.  To install it, one
> downloads a docker container and runs it on some Linux VM someplace.
> (They recommend Digital Ocean, which is where I www3.sqlite.org is
> hosted already.)  It's a self-contained package with minimal
> dependencies that just works.  And it uses SQLite!  My kind of
> software!

Another alternative would be nimforum:
https://github.com/nim-lang/nimforum

From its description:
NimForum is a light-weight forum implementation with many similarities
to Discourse. It is implemented in the Nim programming language and uses
SQLite for its database.


Haven't tried to use it myself, just suggesting.


-- 
https://www.juef.space/
___
fossil-users mailing list
fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users