Re: [fossil-users] Further mailing list configuration changes.

[Todd C. Olson]

Mime Digest format might help, at least in the short term, depending on your 
email client.

That is consider that each message posted to the list was sent out as a mime 
digest with just one message, and was sent out immediately rather than being 
held till a scheduled release time.


The envelope and header of this message would be generic to the list, not 
specific to the poster.

How it would look/operate depends on your email client?

The Gmail web client would show the included message in line in the display

The Office 365 web client will also

OS X Mail will show an attachment which you can double click on and open as 
it's own message (and even save, thus extracting it from the mime digest).  (as 
does Eudora)

I believe Outlook on Windows is similar

I don't recall what Thunderbird does.


Replies would go back to the list, which is what we want.

If you want to directly contact the poster, it's easy on the desktop clients, 
just open the attachment as a message and work with that as you do now.   In 
the web interfaces you will probably have to copy and paste.


Likely there are some additional unhappy details depending on mail client.


However additionally this does work around the evil-that-is-DMARC by 
effectively taking ownership of the message with out destroying the original 
DKIM and other information for those who care.


--

Regards,

tco2
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Re: [fossil-users] Further mailing list configuration changes.

[Todd C. Olson]

With regards to replacing the From: address but leaving the display name, that 
could have adverse impact on e-mail client address books and auto complete, 
since many email clients these days do the wrong thing and only show the 
display name, hiding the email address.


a) How does your address book / email client function if it knows about both

   Fred Smith 

   Fred Smith 

Does it allow you to reliably address an email directly to the second 
address?


b) How does your address book / email client function if it has both

  Fred Smith 
  Jack Shoe 
What does it do on the two line when you try to address to 
fossil-us...@list.fossil-scm.org

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Regards,
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PS  Lucky are those that don't have address books.
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Re: [fossil-users] Further mailing list configuration changes.

[Martin Gagnon]

> Le 30 juin 2016 à 20:47, Ron W  a écrit :
>  
> 
> 
> As for the From header, a newer version of the Mailman list manager would get 
> us the option to replace just the address in the From header.

  +1

> That would help mitigate the problem that Richard was trying to patch by 
> configuring the list to anonymize posts.
>  
>> but ask them for a poll about future of Fossil (mailing list included) then 
>> many will read, and some people just answer.
> 
> Maybe a poll could be done.
Here's my vote... (My $0,02 CAD)

> 
> 3 options I can think of right now, that I see as options in (a newer) 
> Mailman, are "replace From address", "anonymize" or "do nothing".
> 
> I like "replace From address".

Probably the best and simplest solution. (If there's no issues with  Mailman 
upgrade.)

>   


Regards

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Re: [fossil-users] Further mailing list configuration changes.

[Ron W]

On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 11:38 AM, K. Fossil user <
ticketpersonnal-fos...@yahoo.fr> wrote:
>
> As I said, the correct behavior should be : "reply-to" the Fossil SCM
> list...
>

Looking at the email headers, I see "Reply-to: Fossil SCM user's discussion
", so that part is correct.

As for the From header, a newer version of the Mailman list manager would
get us the option to replace just the address in the From header. That
would help mitigate the problem that Richard was trying to patch by
configuring the list to anonymize posts.


> but ask them for a poll about future of Fossil (mailing list included)
> then many will read, and some people just answer.
>

Maybe a poll could be done.

3 options I can think of right now, that I see as options in (a newer)
Mailman, are "replace From address", "anonymize" or "do nothing".

I like "replace From address".

Other options might require new features in Mailman (or switching to
another list manager).


> "Hey they don't know how to deal with a mailing list"
>

Lots of good projects don't know how to properly manage a mailing list or
forum.

This thread is about improving how Fossil's mailing list can be improved.
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Re: [fossil-users] Further mailing list configuration changes.

[K. Fossil user]

1/ I don't speak about human : Git users are sometimes [big] organization ...So 
I mean that subscribers COULD be organization. 519 subscribers ... NOT 
humans.To be honest, subscribers are e-mails : I could create two or three just 
for the mailing list discuss...(I could create many if I do want)You've got two 
at least here...

2/ People don't want to mess with "mailing discuss", not here (me) at least but 
I try to convince you to do the right thing.People would like to be asked : in 
the subject of this thread WE READ : "Further mailing list configuration 
changes"There are NO questions ...In a poll there are questions and choices 
given...
3/ in this e-mail, YOU've write to me, YOU can see that the "reply-to" is to 
YOUR email address, a special one you've created for me...Is it appropriate for 
you? Not for me and especially not for people who would like to give their 
opinions...As I said, the correct behavior should be : "reply-to" the Fossil 
SCM list...
4/ 
>Do you agree that  the majority of people who decided  to respond to the
>thread about  the mailing  list change  were in  favor of  restoring the
>original behavior?
That was/is not my discuss : I've respond to that in number 2) just above : 
"people don't want to mess..."

5/ Privacy
>Are people not  already able to choose? Must they  depend on the mailing
>list to provide the privacy they seek?Hmm... So we could choose between many 
>Fossil mailing list ? One with privacy, one with none, etc ? LOL !Or may be 
>every one knows how to create an e-mail with postfix/whatever you want... TLS 
>included ?I do suppose that every one could deal with NAT using 
>nfstable/iptables in a DMZ?Or I do suppose that we have the choice to use IRC 
>even if we don't want it...?I was astonished one day in the past when I've 
>seen that some developers don't even know anything about VCS ...
Or people will create a special account in a webmail (say Gmail) where they are 
asked for phone number and so on.I guess that they will be forced to buy a 
phone account so they could fill the webmail requirements...I can do that but 
I, personally, don't want that : it's unprofessional.

6/ And this :
>At any  rate, how long  should they be given  to respond? If  they never
>respond, does that  mean that they agree or disagree  with said proposed
>change?As every discuss : no opinion means ... NO opinions, and not yes or 
>no...
NO people don't want to mess with mailing list discuss, but ask them for a poll 
about future of Fossil (mailing list included) then many will read, and some 
people just answer.Ah and in a poll we give them an amount of time AND a 
reminder ...
Number 4/ suffice to answer in fact.
7/ Ask your self why I DO NOT give any informations about bugs I've found in 
the past ...I've seen some glitches that are easy to find : never fixed. May be 
these days it is...Ask your self why one guy sees some typos that are easy to 
seek : he was even asked how he found these...Ask your self why a guy who is a 
lead of a big project don't want Fossil ...
If I were a bad guy I would dare to say to the guy who talks about MatterMost : 
"Hey they don't know how to deal with a mailing list and you ask for a 
slack-like tool ? Are you stupid man ?"I want to point out that I DO NOT use 
MatterMost, but I WILL in the [near] future.

You are clever enough Andy : you could understand.Finally, I think that we 
agree to disagree.I must admit one thing : I like Fossil and I am stupid to 
like it.

I would test 1.35, because I like it, but at this level of discuss I don't 
think that I would give any information about bugs I would found : it's a lose 
of time I don't want to deal with.I guess that someone will found them...

Thank you for reading.

Best Regards

K.

  De : Andy Bradford 
<amb-sendok-1469821765.fappjflkogdfbmcmj...@bradfords.org>
 À : K. Fossil user <ticketpersonnal-fos...@yahoo.fr> 
Cc : Fossil SCM User's Discussion <fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org>
 Envoyé le : Mercredi 29 juin 2016 21h49
 Objet : Re: [fossil-users] Further mailing list configuration changes.
   
>Thus said "K. Fossil user" on Tue, 28 Jun 2016 20:51:29 -:
>
> 1) if numbers count, then 5 is not sufficient in front of 519, and 519
>> is not sufficient either in front of the numerous GIT users...
>519 subscribers does not mean 519 humans.
>At any  rate, how long  should they be given  to respond? If  they never
>respond, does that  mean that they agree or disagree  with said proposed
>change? Given the  implications of your terms, I would  submit that this
>list should have never changed configuration in the first place, because
>a ``poll'' to discover whether or  not the ``community'' supports such a
>change would likely have been as similarly ignored by 500+- subscribers.
>Do you agree that  the majority o

Re: [fossil-users] Further mailing list configuration changes.

[jungle Boogie]

On Jun 28, 2016 1:54 PM, "K. Fossil user" 
wrote:
>
> Ah...
> Let's play YOUR game then.
> People ask for something then you ask others to follow because it seems
that most people (let say : five or more?) guys speak about it ?
> And of course those guys are EXPERT (or I suppose according to you or the
fossil team or whoever you want) so everyone should follow ?
> Hmm strange.
>
> I've read somewhere that we are 519 ... Right ?
>
> 1) if numbers count, then 5 is not sufficient in front of 519, and 519 is
not sufficient either in front of the numerous GIT users...
>
>it's not your project, except as a user and possible contributor, right?
IMO, Dr. Hipp is free to run it as he pleases.
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Re: [fossil-users] Further mailing list configuration changes.

[K. Fossil user]

Ah...Let's play YOUR game then.People ask for something then you ask others to 
follow because it seems that most people (let say : five or more?) guys speak 
about it ?And of course those guys are EXPERT (or I suppose according to you or 
the fossil team or whoever you want) so everyone should follow ?Hmm strange.
I've read somewhere that we are 519 ... Right ?
1) if numbers count, then 5 is not sufficient in front of 519, and 519 is not 
sufficient either in front of the numerous GIT users...
2) if experts point of view count, then this example I've experienced myself 
will help you to think :One day I've told a guy that Fossil is a good thing... 
It must be have a try.After discussion he said : no for technical reason. He 
just asked me if I've heard about some VCS project he quoted. I said no.You 
[Andy] could say that at this stage of my talk it is not interesting and a bit 
stupid, I would agree with you.
Unfortunately for you the guy is a lead of a very big project (SQLite is a 
little one)...Do you know what kind of VCS needs a big and serious project ? Of 
course you do...
So ...

to sum it up)
It is not because I do like what you've write most of the time that it means 
that I will/would say YES to whatever you said...IMHO a serious project 
respects people's privacy, so it doesn't even show up any information : 
anonymity is the key !
I've just say : "let people choose if they want to show anything about them or 
not". Even that makes people angry (really ? You, people, are angry about 
privacy ?).Finally, to reduce some guys anger, I ask for a serious poll. A 
serious poll means that every explanations should be provided, especially about 
pros and cons ... Of course, the subject it-self have the word "poll" inside.MY 
game is about the poll...

How could I convince people to use Fossil if even a poll is an issue,or worst 
irrelevant ?


Best Regards

K.

  De : Andy Bradford 

 Cc : Fossil SCM user's discussion 

Thus said "K. Fossil user" on Mon, 27 Jun 2016 20:10:53 -:

> I don't understand  why the Fossil team don't create  a poll about the
> Mailing list behavior people may want?

Are the responses not sent to  the previous thread regarding the changes
sufficient?

Andy
--
TAI64 timestamp: 40005771e99f


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Re: [fossil-users] Further mailing list configuration changes.

[Andy Bradford]

Thus said "K. Fossil user" on Mon, 27 Jun 2016 20:10:53 -:

> I don't understand  why the Fossil team don't create  a poll about the
> Mailing list behavior people may want?

Are the responses not sent to  the previous thread regarding the changes
sufficient?

Andy
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Re: [fossil-users] Further mailing list configuration changes.

[K. Fossil user]

I don't understand why the Fossil team don't create a poll about the Mailing 
list behavior people may want ?Is it so hard to do ?
The main reason i've read, that people said, was : "Dear Fossil, we could not 
filter so don't change the first behavior".My filters run correctly why not the 
others one ? I even could create a special filter for drh if I which that ...
As I said, if people would like to be known , just put your details and that's 
it...
I read that some people would like that the old behavior is set just because 
they would like it to run with Gmane...Is that serious ? And if I ask that I 
would like it to run with a-special-tool-we-do-use-here because I like it, 
would Fossil do what I ask ?Oh, am I asking too much ?Oh sorry, let's say I ask 
for a google user group that is nice in some extent. Would Fossil change for 
that even if more people would like to use it ? Of course not.
Not clear enough ? If the Fossil team would like to be seen, I should see 
Fossil in Google (search and so on) ...It is not the case. No one around me use 
Fossil, and precisely they haven't hear about it...Surprisingly everyone uses 
SQLite (Firefox, etc.) and some people knows about SQLite...

And if I ask for MatterMost - THE future - would Fossil follow us ? Of course 
not ...
Most of us would like to stay with mailing list, me included, but it is *not* 
THE future !
To sum it up, it is not because someone ask for something (Gmane, MatterMost, 
etc) that you decide to follow it, unless you do create a serious poll about 
it.One of the goal of a serious project must be the future of it (is a project 
whose VCS is CVS the future? Not for me...) and the related way to 
discuss/communicate/etc. (Which communication is the future? etc.).
 Best Regards

K.

  De : Gour <g...@atmarama.com>
 À : fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org 
 Envoyé le : Lundi 27 juin 2016 7h50
 Objet : Re: [fossil-users] Further mailing list configuration changes.
  


On Mon, 27 Jun 2016 14:05:28 +0800
Barry Arthur <barry.art...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> I'm glad to hear that.

However, we do not know the number of subscribers via Gmane - I'm the
one and survived. :-)


Sincerely,
Gour

-- 
Before giving up this present body, if one is able to tolerate
the urges of the material senses and check the force of desire and
anger, he is well situated and is happy in this world.


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Re: [fossil-users] Further mailing list configuration changes.

[jungle Boogie]

On Jun 26, 2016 9:13 PM, "Richard Hipp"  wrote:
>
> The "From:" removal has been turned off and in its place "Reply-To:"
> removal has been turned on.  This is a test message to verify the new
> configuration.

So is this basically how it was configured previously? Your email address
is present in the header so spam and non-spam can be sent off-line.

>
> --
> D. Richard Hipp
> d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [fossil-users] Further mailing list configuration changes.

[Andy Bradford]

Thus said Richard Hipp on Mon, 27 Jun 2016 06:12:50 +0200:

> Further changes might occur depending on how this one goes.

What are your thoughts on some of the proposed methods for attempting to
auto-unsubscribe any bots?

Specifically, having a daily MOTD that is emailed to all subscribers and
which has an envelope from (and From header) which make it easy to trace
to an actual subscriber in the event that spam is sent to it?

Thanks,

Andy
-- 
TAI64 timestamp: 400057717941


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Re: [fossil-users] Further mailing list configuration changes.

[Gour]

On Mon, 27 Jun 2016 14:05:28 +0800
Barry Arthur 
wrote:

> I'm glad to hear that.

However, we do not know the number of subscribers via Gmane - I'm the
one and survived. :-)


Sincerely,
Gour

-- 
Before giving up this present body, if one is able to tolerate
the urges of the material senses and check the force of desire and
anger, he is well situated and is happy in this world.


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Re: [fossil-users] Further mailing list configuration changes.

[Richard Hipp]

On Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 7:13 AM, Barry Arthur  wrote:
> Any stats on how many we lost during the blackout?

0.  Net number of subscribers is unchanged.


-- 
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [fossil-users] Further mailing list configuration changes.

[Barry Arthur]

Any stats on how many we lost during the blackout?

On 27 June 2016 at 12:34, Scott Doctor  wrote:

> Yay.
>
> -
> Scott Doctor
> sc...@scottdoctor.com
>
>
> On 06/26/2016 21:14, Steve Stefanovich wrote:
>
>> Works, don't touch it anymore :)
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Steve
>> ---
>> ‎
>>Original Message
>> From: Richard Hipp
>> Sent: Monday, 27 June 2016 14:13
>> To: fossil-users
>> Reply To: Fossil SCM user's discussion
>> Subject: [fossil-users] Further mailing list configuration changes.
>>
>>
>> The "From:" removal has been turned off and in its place "Reply-To:"
>> removal has been turned on.  This is a test message to verify the new
>> configuration.  Further changes might occur depending on how this one
>> goes.
>>
>> --
>> D. Richard Hipp
>> d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [fossil-users] Further mailing list configuration changes.

[Scott Doctor]

Yay.

-
Scott Doctor
sc...@scottdoctor.com

On 06/26/2016 21:14, Steve Stefanovich wrote:

Works, don't touch it anymore :)

Cheers,
Steve
---
‎
   Original Message
From: Richard Hipp
Sent: Monday, 27 June 2016 14:13
To: fossil-users
Reply To: Fossil SCM user's discussion
Subject: [fossil-users] Further mailing list configuration changes.


The "From:" removal has been turned off and in its place "Reply-To:"
removal has been turned on.  This is a test message to verify the new
configuration.  Further changes might occur depending on how this one
goes.

--
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [fossil-users] Further mailing list configuration changes.

[Steve Stefanovich]

Works, don't touch it anymore :)

Cheers,
Steve
---
‎
  Original Message
From: Richard Hipp
Sent: Monday, 27 June 2016 14:13
To: fossil-users
Reply To: Fossil SCM user's discussion
Subject: [fossil-users] Further mailing list configuration changes.


The "From:" removal has been turned off and in its place "Reply-To:"
removal has been turned on.  This is a test message to verify the new
configuration.  Further changes might occur depending on how this one
goes.

--
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
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