Re: [fpc-pascal] Out of scope method?

[Tony Whyman]

Ryan,

If you want an example of a complete API implemented using reference 
counted interfaces than you could do worse than look at my Firebird 
Pascal API (See https://www.mwasoftware.co.uk/fb-pascal-api).


It's fully documented and works with both FPC and Delphi.

Tony Whyman
MWA


On 06/04/17 15:48, Ryan Joseph wrote:

On Apr 6, 2017, at 9:42 PM, Marcos Douglas B. Santos  wrote:

Lose type checking?
Of course not. You still use the same language, interfaces, classes...

Don't confuse "New, the function" with "New, a method in a class".

I should say that you need to have a matching interface for all your classes, 
and if not then you’ll lose type checking. IAction needs to have all the 
methods in TAction for type checking to work right?

Regards,
Ryan Joseph

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Re: [fpc-pascal] Out of scope method?

[Marcos Douglas B. Santos]

On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 12:23 PM, Ryan Joseph  wrote:
>> In fact is the opposite:
>> TAction needs to have all methods that IAction have.
>> This TAction class in the example is not the same class in RTL.
>>
>> You shouldn't have so many methods in just one class.
>> So, it is simple implement all methods of an interface.
>
> Ouch, that’s far from a good solution then imo and the auto release pool 
> concept from Cocoa is less work to implement and safer even. A direct 
> compiler notification would be best though.

Well, it's depends the point of view. :)
But if you've already got your answer, follow it: use the auto release
pool concept.

Best regads,
Marcos Douglas
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Out of scope method?

[Ryan Joseph]

> On Apr 6, 2017, at 10:01 PM, Marcos Douglas B. Santos  
> wrote:
> 
> In fact is the opposite:
> TAction needs to have all methods that IAction have.
> This TAction class in the example is not the same class in RTL.
> 
> You shouldn't have so many methods in just one class.
> So, it is simple implement all methods of an interface.

Ouch, that’s far from a good solution then imo and the auto release pool 
concept from Cocoa is less work to implement and safer even. A direct compiler 
notification would be best though.

Regards,
Ryan Joseph

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Re: [fpc-pascal] Out of scope method?

[Marcos Douglas B. Santos]

On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 11:48 AM, Ryan Joseph  wrote:
>
>> On Apr 6, 2017, at 9:42 PM, Marcos Douglas B. Santos  
>> wrote:
>>
>> Lose type checking?
>> Of course not. You still use the same language, interfaces, classes...
>>
>> Don't confuse "New, the function" with "New, a method in a class".
>
> I should say that you need to have a matching interface for all your classes, 
> and if not then you’ll lose type checking.

Yes, you need.
IMHO, casting is not a good option to use in object-oriented programming.

> IAction needs to have all the methods in TAction for type checking to work 
> right?
>

In fact is the opposite:
TAction needs to have all methods that IAction have.
This TAction class in the example is not the same class in RTL.

You shouldn't have so many methods in just one class.
So, it is simple implement all methods of an interface.

Best regards,
Marcos Douglas
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Out of scope method?

[Ryan Joseph]

> On Apr 6, 2017, at 9:42 PM, Marcos Douglas B. Santos  wrote:
> 
> Lose type checking?
> Of course not. You still use the same language, interfaces, classes...
> 
> Don't confuse "New, the function" with "New, a method in a class".

I should say that you need to have a matching interface for all your classes, 
and if not then you’ll lose type checking. IAction needs to have all the 
methods in TAction for type checking to work right?

Regards,
Ryan Joseph

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Re: [fpc-pascal] Out of scope method?

[Marcos Douglas B. Santos]

On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 11:01 AM, Ryan Joseph  wrote:
>
>
> > On Apr 6, 2017, at 8:54 PM, Marcos Douglas B. Santos  
> > wrote:
> >
> > Pretty clear, right?
> >
> > Because this "problem" I have a "pattern" that I called "New Method".
> >
> > You can see how it works in my article:
> > (you need to translate from Portuguese)
> > http://objectpascalprogramming.com/posts/interfaces-e-o-metodo-estatico-new/
>
> This sounds highly prone to errors to be honest. Don’t you lose all type 
> checking also? That would have to be deal breaking I would think.

Lose type checking?
Of course not. You still use the same language, interfaces, classes...

Don't confuse "New, the function" with "New, a method in a class".
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Out of scope method?

[Ryan Joseph]

> On Apr 6, 2017, at 8:54 PM, Marcos Douglas B. Santos  wrote:
> 
> Pretty clear, right?
> 
> Because this "problem" I have a "pattern" that I called "New Method".
> 
> You can see how it works in my article:
> (you need to translate from Portuguese)
> http://objectpascalprogramming.com/posts/interfaces-e-o-metodo-estatico-new/

This sounds highly prone to errors to be honest. Don’t you lose all type 
checking also? That would have to be deal breaking I would think.

Regards,
Ryan Joseph

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Re: [fpc-pascal] Out of scope method?

[Marcos Douglas B. Santos]

On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 10:41 AM, Ryan Joseph  wrote:
>
>> On Apr 6, 2017, at 8:13 PM, Marcos Douglas B. Santos  
>> wrote:
>>
>> I can guarantee that reference counting is not a bad idea.
>> I have been using this for years and in my own code I do not use Free
>> method anymore (only if I need to use some classes of RTL or some 3rd
>> libs/frameworks), internally, on private methods.
>>
>> But you need to code using another approach, another mindset...
>
> What method are you using? I found some examples for Delphi that didn’t seem 
> to work in Free Pascal.
>
> Currently I’ve implemented something similar to that found in the Objective-C 
> frameworks called autoreleasing which adds the object to a pool which is 
> drained and the objects freed at the end of every event cycle (after it’s 
> left scope for certain). That works pretty well actually (anyone else ever do 
> this in Pascal?) but the same thing could be achieved with less overhead if 
> the compiler told me when an instance left scope. Specially in a few cases 
> you could load up the pool too large and cause performance problems so I need 
> to be careful of that.
>

First of all, you should use interfaces variables, always.
Sometimes you will have memory leaks and will think that ref counting not work.
See an example:

=== code ===
function TFoo.Execute(const Name: string): string;
begin
  Result := TAction.Create(TTask.Create(Name)).Execute.ToString;
end;
=== end ===

Even if TAction implement an IAction interface, you will have a memory
leak here because you don't have an variable (a: IAction) receiving an
instance of TAction.

I am talking about this:

=== code ===
function TFoo.Execute(const Name: string): string;
var
  A: IAction;
begin
  A := TAction.Create(TTask.Create(Name));
  Result := A.Execute.ToString;
end;
=== end ===

Pretty clear, right?

Because this "problem" I have a "pattern" that I called "New Method".

You can see how it works in my article:
(you need to translate from Portuguese)
http://objectpascalprogramming.com/posts/interfaces-e-o-metodo-estatico-new/

Best regards,
Marcos Douglas
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Out of scope method?

[Ryan Joseph]

> On Apr 6, 2017, at 8:13 PM, Marcos Douglas B. Santos  wrote:
> 
> I can guarantee that reference counting is not a bad idea.
> I have been using this for years and in my own code I do not use Free
> method anymore (only if I need to use some classes of RTL or some 3rd
> libs/frameworks), internally, on private methods.
> 
> But you need to code using another approach, another mindset...

What method are you using? I found some examples for Delphi that didn’t seem to 
work in Free Pascal.

Currently I’ve implemented something similar to that found in the Objective-C 
frameworks called autoreleasing which adds the object to a pool which is 
drained and the objects freed at the end of every event cycle (after it’s left 
scope for certain). That works pretty well actually (anyone else ever do this 
in Pascal?) but the same thing could be achieved with less overhead if the 
compiler told me when an instance left scope. Specially in a few cases you 
could load up the pool too large and cause performance problems so I need to be 
careful of that.

Regards,
Ryan Joseph

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Re: [fpc-pascal] Out of scope method?

[Ryan Joseph]

> On Apr 6, 2017, at 7:45 PM, Sven Barth via fpc-pascal 
>  wrote:
> 
> Arrays are reference counted, class instances are not. So if the compiler 
> would blindly free the instance after it goes out of scope if might free 
> something that another code part still uses.
> 

I was thinking about just calling a method notifying the object it went out of 
the scope it was declared in. The user could then keep track of ref counting 
themselves and choose how to handle the case. Personally I want to enable this 
manually on some objects that I know I didn’t outside of the scope and that 
would be a handy way to manage this.

Regards,
Ryan Joseph

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Re: [fpc-pascal] Out of scope method?

[Marcos Douglas B. Santos]

Hi Ryan,

On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 7:28 AM, Ryan Joseph  wrote:
> Hmm, that sounds like a hack. Is the verdict this is generally a bad idea? I 
> was
> just curious about it and it seems like a reasonable feature a language may 
> have.

I can guarantee that reference counting is not a bad idea.
I have been using this for years and in my own code I do not use Free
method anymore (only if I need to use some classes of RTL or some 3rd
libs/frameworks), internally, on private methods.

But you need to code using another approach, another mindset...

Best regards,
Marcos Douglas
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Out of scope method?

[Sven Barth via fpc-pascal]

Am 06.04.2017 11:58 schrieb "Ryan Joseph" :
>
>
> > On Apr 6, 2017, at 4:26 PM, Sven Barth via fpc-pascal <
fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org> wrote:
> >
> > It's a difficult topic, cause in Object Pascal class instances are
always on the heap while in C++ they might be on the stack as well. Thus a
C++ compiler will insert calls to the destructor of such an object if it
goes out of scope.
> >
> > In Object Pascal currently only reference counted interfaces and (new
in trunk) records with management operators provide this feature.
>
> I see, but since there is a reference to an instance on the stack
wouldn’t it be trivial for the compiler to invoke a method on TObject
descendants when they go out of scope? If it does it for compiler types
like dynamic arrays I imagine it could do the same for classes.

Arrays are reference counted, class instances are not. So if the compiler
would blindly free the instance after it goes out of scope if might free
something that another code part still uses.

Regards,
Sven
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Out of scope method?

[Marco van de Voort]

In our previous episode, Ryan Joseph said:
> > 
> > And reference counting as garbage collection method has been discussed to
> > dead on various maillists and forums. Both Delphi and Lazarus/FPC.
> 
> Hmm, that sounds like a hack. Is the verdict this is generally a bad idea?

There is a reason why C++ only applies the basic RAII to stack objects: they
can't form cycles, and the time required is fairly predictable.

As soon as you allow references and thus complete, complex structures on the
heap this changes. 

There are ways around this (by marking some references as weak as in ARC),
but in general it is not simple. Delphi's mobile compilers use this.

>I was just curious about it and it seems like a reasonable feature a
> language may have.  

Search the web for more info. There is enough info on automatic memory out
there to satisfy any curiousity for years :_)

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Re: [fpc-pascal] Out of scope method?

[Ryan Joseph]

> On Apr 6, 2017, at 5:09 PM, Marco van de Voort  wrote:
> 
> No, since you don't declare an interface variable, but a class variable.
> 
> There are a zillion Delphi faqs about this, but the crux is to use
> 
> var
>  scope:IInterface;
> 
> And reference counting as garbage collection method has been discussed to
> dead on various maillists and forums. Both Delphi and Lazarus/FPC.

Hmm, that sounds like a hack. Is the verdict this is generally a bad idea? I 
was just curious about it and it seems like a reasonable feature a language may 
have.

Regards,
Ryan Joseph

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Re: [fpc-pascal] Out of scope method?

[Marco van de Voort]

In our previous episode, Ryan Joseph said:
> > See http://freepascal.org/docs-html/current/ref/refse48.html#x101-1230007.7
> > for an example.
> > 
> > See also http://wiki.freepascal.org/How_To_Use_Interfaces
> 
> "All COM interfaces use reference counting. This means that whenever an 
> interface is assigned to a variable, it?s reference count is updated. 
> Whenever the variable goes out of scope, the reference count is automatically 
> decreased. When the reference count reaches zero, usually the instance of the 
> class that implements the interface, is freed.?
> 
> Shouldn?t destroy be called in this example when TestScope exists?

No, since you don't declare an interface variable, but a class variable.

There are a zillion Delphi faqs about this, but the crux is to use

var
  scope:IInterface;

And reference counting as garbage collection method has been discussed to
dead on various maillists and forums. Both Delphi and Lazarus/FPC.

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Re: [fpc-pascal] Out of scope method?

[Ryan Joseph]

> On Apr 6, 2017, at 4:26 PM, Sven Barth via fpc-pascal 
>  wrote:
> 
> It's a difficult topic, cause in Object Pascal class instances are always on 
> the heap while in C++ they might be on the stack as well. Thus a C++ compiler 
> will insert calls to the destructor of such an object if it goes out of scope.
> 
> In Object Pascal currently only reference counted interfaces and (new in 
> trunk) records with management operators provide this feature.

I see, but since there is a reference to an instance on the stack wouldn’t it 
be trivial for the compiler to invoke a method on TObject descendants when they 
go out of scope? If it does it for compiler types like dynamic arrays I imagine 
it could do the same for classes.

Regards,
Ryan Joseph

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Re: [fpc-pascal] Out of scope method?

[Ryan Joseph]

> On Apr 6, 2017, at 4:30 PM, Tony Whyman  
> wrote:
> 
> See http://freepascal.org/docs-html/current/ref/refse48.html#x101-1230007.7
> for an example.
> 
> See also http://wiki.freepascal.org/How_To_Use_Interfaces

"All COM interfaces use reference counting. This means that whenever an 
interface is assigned to a variable, it’s reference count is updated. Whenever 
the variable goes out of scope, the reference count is automatically decreased. 
When the reference count reaches zero, usually the instance of the class that 
implements the interface, is freed.”

Shouldn’t destroy be called in this example when TestScope exists?

type
TScopeObject = class (TInterfacedObject)
destructor Destroy; override;
end;

destructor TScopeObject.Destroy;
begin
writeln('dead');
inherited Destroy;
end;

procedure TestScope;
var
scope: TScopeObject; 
begin
scope := TScopeObject.Create;
end;


Regards,
Ryan Joseph

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Re: [fpc-pascal] Out of scope method?

[Tony Whyman]

See http://freepascal.org/docs-html/current/ref/refse48.html#x101-1230007.7
for an example.

See also http://wiki.freepascal.org/How_To_Use_Interfaces

On 06/04/17 10:08, Ryan Joseph wrote:

On Apr 6, 2017, at 3:45 PM, Tony Whyman  wrote:

Isn't this what a COM Interface does - or at least a descendent of 
TInterfacedObject?

Tony Whyman

No idea. Examples?

Regards,
Ryan Joseph

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Re: [fpc-pascal] Out of scope method?

[Sven Barth via fpc-pascal]

Am 06.04.2017 10:32 schrieb "Ryan Joseph" :
>
> Does it exist now or has it ever been discussed that a method in TObject
could be called when an instance of an object goes out of scope? It’s
common to clean up objects in a function body after the function exits and
calling a method would be a nice way to handle this. I think c++ has such a
feature but I never heard of it in Pascal.

It's a difficult topic, cause in Object Pascal class instances are always
on the heap while in C++ they might be on the stack as well. Thus a C++
compiler will insert calls to the destructor of such an object if it goes
out of scope.

In Object Pascal currently only reference counted interfaces and (new in
trunk) records with management operators provide this feature.

Regards,
Sven
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Out of scope method?

[Ryan Joseph]

> On Apr 6, 2017, at 3:45 PM, Tony Whyman  
> wrote:
> 
> Isn't this what a COM Interface does - or at least a descendent of 
> TInterfacedObject?
> 
> Tony Whyman

No idea. Examples?

Regards,
Ryan Joseph

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Re: [fpc-pascal] Out of scope method?

[Tony Whyman]

Isn't this what a COM Interface does - or at least a descendent of 
TInterfacedObject?


Tony Whyman

MWA


On 06/04/17 09:00, Ryan Joseph wrote:

Does it exist now or has it ever been discussed that a method in TObject could 
be called when an instance of an object goes out of scope? It’s common to clean 
up objects in a function body after the function exits and calling a method 
would be a nice way to handle this. I think c++ has such a feature but I never 
heard of it in Pascal.

Regards,
Ryan Joseph

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