Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS workaround for hidden IDE controller?

[Dale E Sterner]

If you want to use CF chips instead of a harddrive.
I'd recommend Komputerbay chips sold on Amazon.
They aren't marked internally as removable like most.
Currently I'm using 32 gig to run dos. Hard to find anything
smaller now. You can run win 7 on them if you want.

cheers
DS




On Thu, 4 Jan 2018 21:47:55 + (UTC) Gregg Eshelman via Freedos-user
 writes:
> Here's the FreeDOS image. Volume label is FREEDOS2012. Will mount in 
> Quemu as a RAW image. Can't relocate the site I downloaded it 
> from.https://anonfile.com/J8sau4d4bc/FreeDOS.rar
> 
> The storage is an IDE Flash Disk, AKA Disk On Module. It has a 44 
> pin female header connector, same electrical interface as a 2.5" IDE 
> hard drive. They're available dirt cheap in sizes from 64 megabytes 
> to 2 gigabytes, not so cheap in 4 and 8 gigabytes. They were 
> (possibly still are) made by around a dozen different companies, or 
> that many put their logos on them. They come in three form factors. 
> Bare PCB with right angle connector. Bare PCB with connector edge 
> mounted. Plastic enclosed with connector on one edge. The latter two 
> are easy to use as laptop hard drive replacements with a male/male 
> pin adapter. *However*, the chips used on many of these DOM's are 
> not too durable. They may not withstand the heavy write use of 
> virtual memory or swap files. They're meant for embedded systems 
> with an OS that does little or no writing to the storage.
>   
> I'd install an actual hard drive if there was enough room inside the 
> thin client. 
> 
>  DOS or FreeDOS, I just want to get the thing to boot off the IDE 
> flash module and run with as much EMS memory as it can. The software 
> I need to run is made to run on anything with DOS, and EMS, and a 
> serial port, all the way back to the 5150 IBM PC. Don't need any 
> XMS, it loads the G-Code files into EMS, if available. Otherwise it 
> uses whatever low memory is available and files too large to fit 
> must be cut up with the spliiter/linker utility.
>  Hopefully the WYSE Sx0 series thin client's memory map isn't all 
> fragmented up like circa 1995 and newer laptops. They don't have a 
> large enough contiguous RAM space to put the 64K EMS paging window. 
> What would be very nice is to be able to hack the BIOS to either 
> totally remove its tricks with the IDE port, or add an option to 
> switch it between original and normal operation.
> 
> If this can be made to work I'll write up a how-to so other PLM2000 
> CNC mill owners can setup a tiny controller box and ditch the big 
> PC. The control computer does zero computing of things like curves. 
> It just sends G-Code to the mill and monitors return communications 
> for encoder counts, limit switch activation and stop messages from 
> exceeding torque limits. The servo controller in the mill does the 
> heavy lifting.
> 
> On Thursday, January 4, 2018, 12:26:17 PM MST, Robert Riebisch 
>  wrote:  
>  
>  Hi Gregg,
> 
> > Boot from USB and it's there. I have a FreeDOS image for a 64 
> megabyte
> > module, which someone French setup for these thin clients. It will 
> boot
> > just fine, but in French. Somehow it works around or ignores it 
> hiding
> > or disabling the IDE controller.
> 
> 1) Where did you get the FreeDOS image?
> 2) Can you make it available to us (Dropbox link?), so we can have a 
> look?
> 3) What do you mean by saying "module"? Is it a CF card connected to 
> the
> IDE connector?
> 
> > Looks like I may have to use FreeDOS if there's no way to get past 
> that
> > with some MS-DOS version. But if there's some special extra
> > configuration required for getting FreeDOS to work, I've no idea 
> what it is.
> 
> 1) Why are you keen on MS-DOS?
> 2) What's wrong with FreeDOS?
> 
> Robert Riebisch


**
>From Dale Sterner - MS organic chemistry
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo00975a052
***


Duchess Says Goodbye To Royal Family
risingstarnewspaper.com
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/5a4fa6204ad48261f2dfcst04duc

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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS workaround for hidden IDE controller?

[Gregg Eshelman via Freedos-user]

It's apparently blocking the FreeDOS USB booted setup from making any writes to 
IDE, after initially blocking it from detecting there's a drive there at all.
 
What would be nice is if I could get one of these thin clients in the hands of 
someone who can check it out in depth to figure out what it's doing to prevent 
working with an OS not supplied by WYSE.
One thing I have found out is that with the official operating systems, they're 
blocked from cross-updating to a different OS but that's easy to bypass by 
copying and pasting some text from a configuration file, for example I put WYSE 
Linux for an S50 onto an S30 by copying the ID info for the S30 in place of the 
same on a USB drive with the Linux installer. WYSE used to sell an XP Embedded 
upgrade kit for any of the Sx0 series to make them an S90. It had a 256 (or 512 
meg) SODIMM and a larger DOM, along with a CD-ROM. Unlike the normal 
downloadable utility and XPe image, that one would have to be configured to not 
care about the OS the client was locked to. But just try finding one of those 
CD-ROMs now.
There's two versions of the Sx0. The early model has soldered RAM and a 
proprietary DOM, was not available with XPe. This version seems to be pretty 
rare, none of my three are this model.
Then they switched to the 2.5" IDE connector and a removable SODIMM. There's a 
few minor revisions but they're only slight things that have no effect on 
software.

On Thursday, January 4, 2018, 6:51:48 PM MST, Rugxulo  
wrote:  
 Hi,

On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 6:36 PM, Gregg Eshelman via Freedos-user
 wrote:
>
> The workaround at the bottom of this page will have to be implemented in
> FreeDOS in order to install it from USB.

Writing to MSRs? Do you really think that's what Quentin did? I
somehow doubt it. He seems to have used stock (unmodified) FD kernel
2040 here.

Quick workaround: can't you install from floppy? (Perhaps USB floppy
drive?) Just to get the raw basics, then xcopy over extra stuff, if
needed.

Actually, you don't need full FreeDOS, just update the kernel (and
other utils, if needed). But even then I doubt too much changed
between kernel 2040 and now.

Or are you saying it won't write any files? You can't modify anything?  --
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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS workaround for hidden IDE controller?

[Rugxulo]

Hi,

On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 6:36 PM, Gregg Eshelman via Freedos-user
 wrote:
>
> The workaround at the bottom of this page will have to be implemented in
> FreeDOS in order to install it from USB.

Writing to MSRs? Do you really think that's what Quentin did? I
somehow doubt it. He seems to have used stock (unmodified) FD kernel
2040 here.

Quick workaround: can't you install from floppy? (Perhaps USB floppy
drive?) Just to get the raw basics, then xcopy over extra stuff, if
needed.

Actually, you don't need full FreeDOS, just update the kernel (and
other utils, if needed). But even then I doubt too much changed
between kernel 2040 and now.

Or are you saying it won't write any files? You can't modify anything?

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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS workaround for hidden IDE controller?

[Gregg Eshelman via Freedos-user]

I just tried installing FreeDOS 1.2 Lite from a 512 meg USB drive onto a WYSE 
S30. Result? Failure.
It boots and launches the setup. First is says there's no fixed disk, then is 
says drive D: is not partitioned. So I have it partition and reboot.
Repeats this exactly the same. The BIOS *does* prevent some critical access to 
the IDE when booted from USB or when attempting to boot an OS from the IDE, 
except when using an OS and BIOS updater from USB or an OS from the IDE that 
came from WYSE.
The workaround at the bottom of this page will have to be implemented in 
FreeDOS in order to install it from USB. 
http://www.parkytowers.me.uk/thin/wyse/s10/Linux.shtml
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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS workaround for hidden IDE controller?

[Gregg Eshelman via Freedos-user]

The CNC control software has to have EMS. Without it, it can't use any more 
than low memory. It's *old* software, capable of running on a 1981 vintage 5150 
IBM PC. So I would assume it knows nothing of newer EMS types with their fancy 
features. If only Light Machines, then Intelitek, had bothered to write newer 
software for the PLM2000 like they did for the PLM1000.

On Thursday, January 4, 2018, 3:05:06 PM MST, E. Auer  
wrote:  
Some thoughts...

> The storage is an IDE Flash Disk, AKA Disk On Module. It has a 44 pin
> female header connector, same electrical interface as a 2.5" IDE hard
> drive. They're available dirt cheap in sizes from 64 megabytes to 2
> gigabytes, not so cheap in 4 and 8 gigabytes...

You can also use a compact flash (CF) card with a purely mechanical
adapter (CF can speak IDE interface language). They are cheap but I
think DOM can do more I/O transactions per second.

Another idea: Instead of EMS, you could use good old XMS to make a big
ramdisk and then copy everything there on boot. Assuming that you do
not plan to modify files on the machine - modifications would be lost
each time when you shut down or reboot without copying data back from
the ramdisk to the flash disk. The ramdisk would be as fast as the EMS
library of G files in your old software, but would not need EMS. In my
opinion, XMS drivers are more "tame" to use compared to EMS drivers.

If your old software supports EMS 4.0, then you would not need a 64k
page window. This is what the NOEMS option of EMS drivers does: It
skips the creation of the window. Software which understands version
4.0 of EMS can still use EMS without needing a large fixed window.

With DOS in HMA and drivers (if safe and not too fragmented) in UMB,
you will have a lot of low memory available. So depending on how large
those G-Code files are, things should be okay. Note that you can use
UMBPCI to have raw UMB without the hassles of configuring EMS right.
Also, UMBPCI is still maintained for support of many mainboard types.
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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS workaround for hidden IDE controller?

[Robert Riebisch]

Hi Gregg Eshelman via Freedos-user,

> Here's the FreeDOS image. Volume label is FREEDOS2012. Will mount in
> Quemu as a RAW image. Can't relocate the site I downloaded it from.
> https://anonfile.com/J8sau4d4bc/FreeDOS.rar

AUTOEXEC.BAT says: "Image pour le Wyse S30 par Quentin Bouteiller
(http://www.quent1.fr/)"

Just change the 2nd line in AUTOEXEC.BAT from "SET LANG=FR" to "SET
LANG=" (or delete the whole line).

Robert Riebisch
-- 
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 Home page:  http://www.bttr-software.de/
DOS ain't dead:  http://www.bttr-software.de/forum/

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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS workaround for hidden IDE controller?

[E. Auer]

Some thoughts...


The storage is an IDE Flash Disk, AKA Disk On Module. It has a 44 pin
female header connector, same electrical interface as a 2.5" IDE hard
drive. They're available dirt cheap in sizes from 64 megabytes to 2
gigabytes, not so cheap in 4 and 8 gigabytes...


You can also use a compact flash (CF) card with a purely mechanical
adapter (CF can speak IDE interface language). They are cheap but I
think DOM can do more I/O transactions per second.

Another idea: Instead of EMS, you could use good old XMS to make a big
ramdisk and then copy everything there on boot. Assuming that you do
not plan to modify files on the machine - modifications would be lost
each time when you shut down or reboot without copying data back from
the ramdisk to the flash disk. The ramdisk would be as fast as the EMS
library of G files in your old software, but would not need EMS. In my
opinion, XMS drivers are more "tame" to use compared to EMS drivers.

If your old software supports EMS 4.0, then you would not need a 64k
page window. This is what the NOEMS option of EMS drivers does: It
skips the creation of the window. Software which understands version
4.0 of EMS can still use EMS without needing a large fixed window.

With DOS in HMA and drivers (if safe and not too fragmented) in UMB,
you will have a lot of low memory available. So depending on how large
those G-Code files are, things should be okay. Note that you can use
UMBPCI to have raw UMB without the hassles of configuring EMS right.
Also, UMBPCI is still maintained for support of many mainboard types.

Regards, Eric


 DOS or FreeDOS, I just want to get the thing to boot off the IDE
flash module and run with as much EMS memory as it can. The software I
need to run is made to run on anything with DOS, and EMS, and a serial
port, all the way back to the 5150 IBM PC. Don't need any XMS, it
loads the G-Code files into EMS, if available. Otherwise it uses
whatever low memory is available and files too large to fit must be
cut up with the splitter/linker utility.



Hopefully the WYSE Sx0 series thin client's memory map isn't all
fragmented up like circa 1995 and newer laptops. They don't have a
large enough contiguous RAM space to put the 64K EMS paging window.



If this can be made to work I'll write up a how-to so other PLM2000
CNC mill owners can setup a tiny controller box and ditch the big PC.
The control computer does zero computing of things like curves. It
just sends G-Code to the mill and monitors return communications for
encoder counts, limit switch activation and stop messages from
exceeding torque limits. The servo controller in the mill does the
heavy lifting.



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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS workaround for hidden IDE controller?

[Gregg Eshelman via Freedos-user]

Here's the FreeDOS image. Volume label is FREEDOS2012. Will mount in Quemu as a 
RAW image. Can't relocate the site I downloaded it 
from.https://anonfile.com/J8sau4d4bc/FreeDOS.rar

The storage is an IDE Flash Disk, AKA Disk On Module. It has a 44 pin female 
header connector, same electrical interface as a 2.5" IDE hard drive. They're 
available dirt cheap in sizes from 64 megabytes to 2 gigabytes, not so cheap in 
4 and 8 gigabytes. They were (possibly still are) made by around a dozen 
different companies, or that many put their logos on them. They come in three 
form factors. Bare PCB with right angle connector. Bare PCB with connector edge 
mounted. Plastic enclosed with connector on one edge. The latter two are easy 
to use as laptop hard drive replacements with a male/male pin adapter. 
*However*, the chips used on many of these DOM's are not too durable. They may 
not withstand the heavy write use of virtual memory or swap files. They're 
meant for embedded systems with an OS that does little or no writing to the 
storage.
  
I'd install an actual hard drive if there was enough room inside the thin 
client. 

 DOS or FreeDOS, I just want to get the thing to boot off the IDE flash module 
and run with as much EMS memory as it can. The software I need to run is made 
to run on anything with DOS, and EMS, and a serial port, all the way back to 
the 5150 IBM PC. Don't need any XMS, it loads the G-Code files into EMS, if 
available. Otherwise it uses whatever low memory is available and files too 
large to fit must be cut up with the spliiter/linker utility.
 Hopefully the WYSE Sx0 series thin client's memory map isn't all fragmented up 
like circa 1995 and newer laptops. They don't have a large enough contiguous 
RAM space to put the 64K EMS paging window. What would be very nice is to be 
able to hack the BIOS to either totally remove its tricks with the IDE port, or 
add an option to switch it between original and normal operation.

If this can be made to work I'll write up a how-to so other PLM2000 CNC mill 
owners can setup a tiny controller box and ditch the big PC. The control 
computer does zero computing of things like curves. It just sends G-Code to the 
mill and monitors return communications for encoder counts, limit switch 
activation and stop messages from exceeding torque limits. The servo controller 
in the mill does the heavy lifting.

On Thursday, January 4, 2018, 12:26:17 PM MST, Robert Riebisch 
 wrote:  
 
 Hi Gregg,

> Boot from USB and it's there. I have a FreeDOS image for a 64 megabyte
> module, which someone French setup for these thin clients. It will boot
> just fine, but in French. Somehow it works around or ignores it hiding
> or disabling the IDE controller.

1) Where did you get the FreeDOS image?
2) Can you make it available to us (Dropbox link?), so we can have a look?
3) What do you mean by saying "module"? Is it a CF card connected to the
IDE connector?

> Looks like I may have to use FreeDOS if there's no way to get past that
> with some MS-DOS version. But if there's some special extra
> configuration required for getting FreeDOS to work, I've no idea what it is.

1) Why are you keen on MS-DOS?
2) What's wrong with FreeDOS?

Robert Riebisch  --
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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS workaround for hidden IDE controller?

[E. Auer]

Hi Greg,


I don't need anything complicated for DOS, just configuring the 128
meg RAM for as much EMS as possible because the old software I want to
run uses EMS not XMS, and USB support for reading files from flash
drives. Getting the Realtek AC97 sound and Realtek LAN working would
be nice, but not required.


This depends on what you want to do with the sound. IF the old
software has the possibility to change drivers, you could make
it use AC97. IF if can only support soundblaster: Well, AC97 is
not soundblaster, so only special tools which simulate a sb16
and then send the sound to ac97 in the background would help.

Regarding realtek LAN, rtl8139 and similar were classics, so DOS
drivers are available for those. Assuming that you want a packet
driver, that is. If your software involves something like Win3,
things are different, also regarding the sound.

For EMS, you can try JEMMEX, JEMM386 and other free drivers or
the classic drivers from microsoft, ibm, quarterdeck etc. In all
cases, you will have to read the docs and carefully select the
right command line options to get a stable system with much EMS
but without conflicts in the UMB range or similar problems. One
aspect often is selecting the right A20 mechanism and the right
mechanism to get memory area listings from the BIOS. Everything
theoretically autodetectable, but incompatible surprises exist.

Regards, Eric


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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS workaround for hidden IDE controller?

[Robert Riebisch]

Hi Gregg,

> Boot from USB and it's there. I have a FreeDOS image for a 64 megabyte
> module, which someone French setup for these thin clients. It will boot
> just fine, but in French. Somehow it works around or ignores it hiding
> or disabling the IDE controller.

1) Where did you get the FreeDOS image?
2) Can you make it available to us (Dropbox link?), so we can have a look?
3) What do you mean by saying "module"? Is it a CF card connected to the
IDE connector?

> Looks like I may have to use FreeDOS if there's no way to get past that
> with some MS-DOS version. But if there's some special extra
> configuration required for getting FreeDOS to work, I've no idea what it is.

1) Why are you keen on MS-DOS?
2) What's wrong with FreeDOS?

Robert Riebisch
-- 
  +++ BTTR Software +++
 Home page:  http://www.bttr-software.de/
DOS ain't dead:  http://www.bttr-software.de/forum/

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[Freedos-user] FreeDOS workaround for hidden IDE controller?

[Gregg Eshelman via Freedos-user]

I'm attempting to get some DOS onto a WYSE Sx0 thin client. The problem is 
right after the OS starts to load from the IDE flash module, the BIOS steps in 
and hides the IDE controller. So it comes up missing operating system.
Boot from USB and it's there. I have a FreeDOS image for a 64 megabyte module, 
which someone French setup for these thin clients. It will boot just fine, but 
in French. Somehow it works around or ignores it hiding or disabling the IDE 
controller.
The problem and fix for Linux is at the bottom of this page 
http://www.parkytowers.me.uk/thin/wyse/s10/Linux.shtml
Looks like I may have to use FreeDOS if there's no way to get past that with 
some MS-DOS version. But if there's some special extra configuration required 
for getting FreeDOS to work, I've no idea what it is.
I don't need anything complicated for DOS, just configuring the 128 meg RAM for 
as much EMS as possible because the old software I want to run uses EMS not 
XMS, and USB support for reading files from flash drives. Getting the Realtek 
AC97 sound and Realtek LAN working would be nice, but not required.
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