Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
On Sunday 03 August 2014 00:38:34 Philip Webb wrote: 140802 Walter Dnes wrote: In Gentoo, *ANY* kde app which runs on the kde infrastructure requires phonon, and one of aqua/gstreamer/vlc, unless you resort to ugly hackery as per http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/276393 So don't blame KDE, blame Gentoo for not handling Phonon correctly : see KDE bug 190601 Gentoo bug 265864 . +1 Had a look myself just now based on your other comments. KDE actually specifies how to build without any multimedia (audio and video) support: https://techbase.kde.org/Development/Tutorials/CMake#Command_Line_Variables cmake command line variable: KDE4_DISABLE_MULTIMEDIA=ON: Build KDE without any multimedia (audio and video) support. -- Joost
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
On Sun, Aug 03, 2014 at 09:07:52AM +0200, Joost Roeleveld wrote On Sunday 03 August 2014 00:38:34 Philip Webb wrote: 140802 Walter Dnes wrote: In Gentoo, *ANY* kde app which runs on the kde infrastructure requires phonon, and one of aqua/gstreamer/vlc, unless you resort to ugly hackery as per http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/276393 So don't blame KDE, blame Gentoo for not handling Phonon correctly : see KDE bug 190601 Gentoo bug 265864 . +1 Had a look myself just now based on your other comments. KDE actually specifies how to build without any multimedia (audio and video) support: https://techbase.kde.org/Development/Tutorials/CMake#Command_Line_Variables cmake command line variable: KDE4_DISABLE_MULTIMEDIA=ON: Build KDE without any multimedia (audio and video) The big question... what is multimedia? Would it be possible to build kde with image support (gif/png/jpeg/tiff/pdf/etc) without building in audio and video? I.e. how integrated is kde's graphics and multimedia? -- Walter Dnes waltd...@waltdnes.org I don't run desktop environments; I run useful applications
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
On Sunday, August 03, 2014 04:17:23 AM Walter Dnes wrote: On Sun, Aug 03, 2014 at 09:07:52AM +0200, Joost Roeleveld wrote On Sunday 03 August 2014 00:38:34 Philip Webb wrote: 140802 Walter Dnes wrote: In Gentoo, *ANY* kde app which runs on the kde infrastructure requires phonon, and one of aqua/gstreamer/vlc, unless you resort to ugly hackery as per http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/276393 So don't blame KDE, blame Gentoo for not handling Phonon correctly : see KDE bug 190601 Gentoo bug 265864 . +1 Had a look myself just now based on your other comments. KDE actually specifies how to build without any multimedia (audio and video) support: https://techbase.kde.org/Development/Tutorials/CMake#Command_Line_Variable s cmake command line variable: KDE4_DISABLE_MULTIMEDIA=ON: Build KDE without any multimedia (audio and video) The big question... what is multimedia? Would it be possible to build kde with image support (gif/png/jpeg/tiff/pdf/etc) without building in audio and video? I.e. how integrated is kde's graphics and multimedia? The most common definition of multimedia is audio and video. Images is generally a different set. Also the description specifies audio and video specifically. It might be useful to modify the ebuild(s) to specify that option and see what happens. But I think that needs to be added to quite a few ebuilds and the related dependencies need to be modified as well. -- Joost
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
On 03/08/2014 04:59, Walter Dnes wrote: phonon is not an okular dependency. It is a deep dependancy. kde-base/kdelibs-4.12.5-r1.ebuild has a COMMONDEPEND= block which includes =media-libs/phonon-4.4.3. And media-libs/phonon-4.6.0-r1.ebuild has the following line... REQUIRED_USE=|| ( aqua gstreamer vlc ) In gentoo, *ANY* kde app which runs on the kde infrastructure requires phonon, and one of aqua/gstreamer/vlc, unless you resort to ugly hackery as per http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/276393 OK. But my original point still stands: Okular is not designed to be a stand-alone app, it is designed to run in the context of something bigger. And that context is KDE. KDE is a full-featured desktop environment, it assumes that the user will want phonon and everything that comes with it, plus plasma. So when you emerge okular and get a boat load of new deps pulled in, why are you surprised when that goes the way it is designed, the way it says on the box? It's not a stand-alone app. This is also not Windows, here you have choices and there's no shortage of pdf readers out there. Pick another one -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
On Friday, August 01, 2014 12:26:59 PM Philip Webb wrote: 140731 Walter Dnes wrote: On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 10:47:29AM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote When reading pdf files, one expects images, so tiff and jpeg are reasonable flags. One does *NOT* expect audio stuff like phonon. And phonon *DEMANDS SOMETHING*. vlc is one of the options that satisfies phonon's demands. Or you could choose gstreamer and its gazillion plugins. Not quite (smile) ! -- I ran into this sent bugs to Gentoo + KDE ; the outcome was that I discovered that Phonon doesn't in fact demand that you install the actual sound software : it works to do 'USE=gstreamer --nodeps emerge phonon' Kdelibs then compiles successfully as well. If you compile KDE outside Portage, there's a nosound flag, but the Gentoo devs have implemented that to require 'USE=soundpkg, perhaps knowing that it cb happily ignored via '--nodeps'. Just don't expect this to be documented anywere (grimace). Do you still have the bug numbers for this? I have a few machines without any sound support. If I can remove the entire sound system from it, it would save time during the updates. -- Joost
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
140802 J. Roeleveld wrote: On Friday, August 01, 2014 12:26:59 PM Philip Webb wrote: Not quite (smile) ! -- I ran into this sent bugs to Gentoo + KDE ; the outcome was that I discovered that Phonon doesn't in fact demand that you install the actual sound software : it works to do 'USE=gstreamer --nodeps emerge phonon' Kdelibs then compiles successfully as well. If you compile KDE outside Portage, there's a nosound flag, but the Gentoo devs have implemented that to require 'USE=soundpkg, perhaps knowing that it cb happily ignored via '--nodeps'. Just don't expect this to be documented anywere (grimace). Do you still have the bug numbers for this? Gentoo 265864 , KDE 190601 ; also see Gentoo 454330 re Firefox. I have a few machines without any sound support. If I can remove the entire sound system from it, it would save time during the updates. I have sound disabled in the kernel no sound pkgs installed ; I have had to install Phonon, but nothing to work with it. I use several KDE apps, but run my desktop with Fluxbox. -- ,, SUPPORT ___//___, Philip Webb ELECTRIC /] [] [] [] [] []| Cities Centre, University of Toronto TRANSIT`-O--O---' purslowatchassdotutorontodotca
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
On Fri, Aug 01, 2014 at 06:57:17PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote
On 01/08/2014 05:16, Walter Dnes wrote:
On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 10:47:29AM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote
how much do you have to install if you deactivate all use flags for
okular? well, you still have all of qt... and kdelibs and phonon... but
you would loose a lot of the other stuff. vlc support in phonon is as
optional as tiff or chm in okular.
When reading pdf files, one expects images, so tiff and jpeg are
reasonable flags. One does *NOT* expect audio stuff like phonon. And
phonon *DEMANDS SOMETHING*. vlc is one of the options that satisfies
phonon's demands. Or you could choose gstreamer and its gazillion plugins.
I have no idea what you are talking about.
[I] kde-base/okular
Available versions: (4) 4.12.5-r1(4/4.12)^t (~)4.13.3(4/4.13)^t
{aqua chm crypt debug djvu dpi ebook +handbook +jpeg mobi +pdf
+postscript +tiff}
There's nothing in there about audio or video. There's only images and
of those only 4 rational ones are enabled by default plus the help system.
So what is the real problem exactly again?
On Fri, Aug 01, 2014 at 09:49:57PM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote
phonon is not an okular dependency.
It is a deep dependancy. kde-base/kdelibs-4.12.5-r1.ebuild has a
COMMONDEPEND= block which includes =media-libs/phonon-4.4.3. And
media-libs/phonon-4.6.0-r1.ebuild has the following line...
REQUIRED_USE=|| ( aqua gstreamer vlc )
In gentoo, *ANY* kde app which runs on the kde infrastructure requires
phonon, and one of aqua/gstreamer/vlc, unless you resort to ugly hackery
as per http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/276393
--
Walter Dnes waltd...@waltdnes.org
I don't run desktop environments; I run useful applications
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
140802 Walter Dnes wrote: In Gentoo, *ANY* kde app which runs on the kde infrastructure requires phonon, and one of aqua/gstreamer/vlc, unless you resort to ugly hackery as per http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/276393 So don't blame KDE, blame Gentoo for not handling Phonon correctly : see KDE bug 190601 Gentoo bug 265864 . -- ,, SUPPORT ___//___, Philip Webb ELECTRIC /] [] [] [] [] []| Cities Centre, University of Toronto TRANSIT`-O--O---' purslowatchassdotutorontodotca
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
On Thursday 31 July 2014 15:37:51 Alan McKinnon wrote: On 31/07/2014 12:45, Alec Ten Harmsel wrote: So on that box you wouldn't choose a KDE program. Simple. Yes, it was simple. Everything on gentoo is just s simple ;) I think this is the first discussion about desktop environments I've ever seen that hasn't degenerated into a complete flame war. I love this list. Just wait till Neil, me and a few others swing the topic over to WW II fighter aircraft. The flames will start then. Ooh, the temptation ... -- Regards Peter
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
140731 Walter Dnes wrote: On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 10:47:29AM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote When reading pdf files, one expects images, so tiff and jpeg are reasonable flags. One does *NOT* expect audio stuff like phonon. And phonon *DEMANDS SOMETHING*. vlc is one of the options that satisfies phonon's demands. Or you could choose gstreamer and its gazillion plugins. Not quite (smile) ! -- I ran into this sent bugs to Gentoo + KDE ; the outcome was that I discovered that Phonon doesn't in fact demand that you install the actual sound software : it works to do 'USE=gstreamer --nodeps emerge phonon' Kdelibs then compiles successfully as well. If you compile KDE outside Portage, there's a nosound flag, but the Gentoo devs have implemented that to require 'USE=soundpkg, perhaps knowing that it cb happily ignored via '--nodeps'. Just don't expect this to be documented anywere (grimace). -- ,, SUPPORT ___//___, Philip Webb ELECTRIC /] [] [] [] [] []| Cities Centre, University of Toronto TRANSIT`-O--O---' purslowatchassdotutorontodotca
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
On 01/08/2014 05:16, Walter Dnes wrote:
On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 10:47:29AM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote
how much do you have to install if you deactivate all use flags for
okular? well, you still have all of qt... and kdelibs and phonon... but
you would loose a lot of the other stuff. vlc support in phonon is as
optional as tiff or chm in okular.
When reading pdf files, one expects images, so tiff and jpeg are
reasonable flags. One does *NOT* expect audio stuff like phonon. And
phonon *DEMANDS SOMETHING*. vlc is one of the options that satisfies
phonon's demands. Or you could choose gstreamer and its gazillion plugins.
I have no idea what you are talking about.
[I] kde-base/okular
Available versions: (4) 4.12.5-r1(4/4.12)^t (~)4.13.3(4/4.13)^t
{aqua chm crypt debug djvu dpi ebook +handbook +jpeg mobi +pdf
+postscript +tiff}
There's nothing in there about audio or video. There's only images and
of those only 4 rational ones are enabled by default plus the help system.
So what is the real problem exactly again?
--
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
Am 01.08.2014 05:16, schrieb Walter Dnes: On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 10:47:29AM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote how much do you have to install if you deactivate all use flags for okular? well, you still have all of qt... and kdelibs and phonon... but you would loose a lot of the other stuff. vlc support in phonon is as optional as tiff or chm in okular. When reading pdf files, one expects images, so tiff and jpeg are reasonable flags. One does *NOT* expect audio stuff like phonon. And phonon *DEMANDS SOMETHING*. vlc is one of the options that satisfies phonon's demands. Or you could choose gstreamer and its gazillion plugins. phonon is not an okular dependency.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 04:41:24AM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote I occasionally tried razorqt or enlightenment or twm... and yeah, they load quickly. And then they are all useless for me. I run ICEWM with 9 work areas dedicated to specific tasks or forums. A desktop environment doesn't provide me that much extra functionality. I suppose some of my inertia is due to starting to use ICEWM and *BOX back when I had a Dell with 256 megabytes of RAM and an 8-megabyte ATI video card. That machine lasted for 7 years or so. My current one is over 6 years old. -- Walter Dnes waltd...@waltdnes.org I don't run desktop environments; I run useful applications
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
On 31/07/2014 03:55, Walter Dnes wrote: On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 10:31:50PM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote Am 30.07.2014 21:48, schrieb Dale: While to me KDE is bloated, I just try to disable what I can and carry on. If my system was limited on resources, then I may use something else. and maybe you did exactly the wrong thing. KDE is very modular and reuses its modules as much as it can. Which also means: memory is only used once. There were once a very good (in my not so humble opinion. It think very highly of myself) comparism here: http://ktown.kde.org/~seli/memory/ (url is dead btw) and if you actually use kde apps in kde - memory consumption is lower than in either gnome or 'leightweight' solutions like xfce or windowmaker+stuff. http://web.archive.org/web/20071229030604/http://ktown.kde.org/~seli/memory/desktop_benchmark.html The problem with KDE apps is that they're imitating what MS did with Internet Explorer. They pointed to the itsy-bitsy-teeny-weeny little ie.exe that you could delete if you felt like doing so. They deliberately obfuscated that it was merely a front end to a ton of system libraries that you could not remove. Back when xpdf was being deprecated, various replacement options were suggested. I chose mupdf rather than the KDE app okular. Here's why. After multiple attempts at emerge -pv okular, I found I had to add at least the following to package.use to get it to work... dev-libs/libattica qt4 media-libs/phonon vlc media-video/vlc dbus xcb -ffmpeg dev-qt/qtcore qt3support dev-qt/qtdeclarative accessibility qt3support dev-qt/qtgui accessibility qt3support dev-qt/qtopengl qt3support dev-qt/qt3support accessibility dev-qt/qtsql qt3support sqlite dev-qt/qtsvg accessibility sys-libs/ncurses unicode Seems that if I want to emerge and use KDE's pdf reader, I need... phonon vlc (or gstreamer) libmpeg libmad net-dns/libidn dev-qt/qtwebkit ...***FOR A STINKING PDF READER***. Here's the emerge -pv okular output with USE flag listings edited out... [d531][waltdnes][~] emerge -pv okular | sed s/USE.*$// These are the packages that would be merged, in order: Calculating dependencies done! [ebuild R] sys-libs/ncurses-5.9-r3:5 [ebuild N ] net-dns/libidn-1.28 [ebuild N ] kde-base/kde-env-4.12.5:4/4.12 [ebuild N ] dev-libs/libpcre-8.35:3 [ebuild N ] app-admin/eselect-qtgraphicssystem-1.1.1 0 kB [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qtcore-4.8.5-r2:4 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qtscript-4.8.5:4 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qtgui-4.8.5-r3:4 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qtsql-4.8.5:4 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qt3support-4.8.5:4 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qtdbus-4.8.5:4 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qtsvg-4.8.5:4 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qttest-4.8.5:4 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/designer-4.8.5:4 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qtopengl-4.8.5:4 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qtxmlpatterns-4.8.5:4 [ebuild N ] app-crypt/qca-2.0.3:2 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qtwebkit-4.8.5:4 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qtdeclarative-4.8.5:4 [ebuild N ] x11-libs/libXScrnSaver-1.2.2-r1 [ebuild N ] media-libs/libmpeg2-0.5.1-r2 [ebuild N ] media-libs/libmad-0.15.1b-r7 [ebuild N ] media-video/vlc-2.1.2:0/5-7 [ebuild N ] dev-util/automoc-0.9.88 9 kB [ebuild N ] kde-base/oxygen-icons-4.12.5:4/4.12 [ebuild N ] media-libs/qimageblitz-0.0.6-r1 [ebuild N ] dev-libs/libattica-0.4.2 [ebuild N ] dev-libs/libdbusmenu-qt-0.9.2 [ebuild N ] app-misc/strigi-0.7.8 [ebuild N ] media-libs/phonon-4.6.0-r1 [ebuild N ] media-libs/phonon-vlc-0.6.2 [ebuild N ] kde-base/kdelibs-4.12.5-r1:4/4.12 [ebuild N ] kde-base/katepart-4.12.5:4/4.12 [ebuild N ] kde-base/libkexiv2-4.12.5:4/4.12 [ebuild N ] kde-base/okular-4.12.5-r1:4/4.12 Total: 35 packages (34 new, 1 reinstall), Size of downloads: 309,990 kB I'm going to take issue with this post. Walter, you have completely misjudged what KDE is designed to do and are blaming it unfairly. KDE apps are not designed to run in isolation - they run in a greater context. That context is the KDE system. It was designed with the view that an app like okular will be installed alongside other similar apps that let you deal with other filetypes. Like audio, video, graphics, text. And so on. To do this, it needs the libs it is built on. And it needs a graphics toolkit - Qt. The reason you got such a long list of packages to install is because you do not have any Qt installed at all. If you did not have any X installed at all and wanted to emerge xpdf you would get a similar long list for exactly the same reason. The point I'm trying to make is that KDe was not designed with you in mind. KDE could never work for you because of your viewpoint and that viewpoint is in your sig. So please stop blaming KDE for doing what KDE does correctly and well. Just realise that you are
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
Walter Dnes wrote: On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 04:41:24AM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote I occasionally tried razorqt or enlightenment or twm... and yeah, they load quickly. And then they are all useless for me. I run ICEWM with 9 work areas dedicated to specific tasks or forums. A desktop environment doesn't provide me that much extra functionality. I suppose some of my inertia is due to starting to use ICEWM and *BOX back when I had a Dell with 256 megabytes of RAM and an 8-megabyte ATI video card. That machine lasted for 7 years or so. My current one is over 6 years old. On a rig that has limited resources, you are doing what I would do as well, outside the USE=-* thing. :-D I would use Fluxbox or some other very light GUI. I'd keep it simple so that when I click something, I don't have to go get a drink while I am waiting. And in some cases, have plenty of time to drink it as well. What a person uses has to be based on what it is being used on and what the user expects. All about balance. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
On 31/07/2014 09:23, Dale wrote: Walter Dnes wrote: On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 04:41:24AM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote I occasionally tried razorqt or enlightenment or twm... and yeah, they load quickly. And then they are all useless for me. I run ICEWM with 9 work areas dedicated to specific tasks or forums. A desktop environment doesn't provide me that much extra functionality. I suppose some of my inertia is due to starting to use ICEWM and *BOX back when I had a Dell with 256 megabytes of RAM and an 8-megabyte ATI video card. That machine lasted for 7 years or so. My current one is over 6 years old. On a rig that has limited resources, you are doing what I would do as well, outside the USE=-* thing. :-D I would use Fluxbox or some other very light GUI. I'd keep it simple so that when I click something, I don't have to go get a drink while I am waiting. And in some cases, have plenty of time to drink it as well. What a person uses has to be based on what it is being used on and what the user expects. All about balance. There's a huge difference between recognizing a resource-constrained machine and acting appropriately on the one hand, and ranting about bloat on the other. One usually involves sensible thought, the other usually doesn't. -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
On Thursday, July 31, 2014 08:34:09 AM Alan McKinnon wrote: On 31/07/2014 03:55, Walter Dnes wrote: On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 10:31:50PM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote Am 30.07.2014 21:48, schrieb Dale: While to me KDE is bloated, I just try to disable what I can and carry on. If my system was limited on resources, then I may use something else. and maybe you did exactly the wrong thing. KDE is very modular and reuses its modules as much as it can. Which also means: memory is only used once. There were once a very good (in my not so humble opinion. It think very highly of myself) comparism here: http://ktown.kde.org/~seli/memory/ (url is dead btw) and if you actually use kde apps in kde - memory consumption is lower than in either gnome or 'leightweight' solutions like xfce or windowmaker+stuff. http://web.archive.org/web/20071229030604/http://ktown.kde.org/~seli/me mo ry/desktop_benchmark.html The problem with KDE apps is that they're imitating what MS did with Internet Explorer. They pointed to the itsy-bitsy-teeny-weeny little ie.exe that you could delete if you felt like doing so. They deliberately obfuscated that it was merely a front end to a ton of system libraries that you could not remove. Back when xpdf was being deprecated, various replacement options were suggested. I chose mupdf rather than the KDE app okular. Here's why. After multiple attempts at emerge -pv okular, I found I had to add at least the following to package.use to get it to work... dev-libs/libattica qt4 media-libs/phonon vlc media-video/vlc dbus xcb -ffmpeg dev-qt/qtcore qt3support dev-qt/qtdeclarative accessibility qt3support dev-qt/qtgui accessibility qt3support dev-qt/qtopengl qt3support dev-qt/qt3support accessibility dev-qt/qtsql qt3support sqlite dev-qt/qtsvg accessibility sys-libs/ncurses unicode Seems that if I want to emerge and use KDE's pdf reader, I need... phonon vlc (or gstreamer) libmpeg libmad net-dns/libidn dev-qt/qtwebkit ...***FOR A STINKING PDF READER***. Here's the emerge -pv okular output with USE flag listings edited out... [d531][waltdnes][~] emerge -pv okular | sed s/USE.*$// These are the packages that would be merged, in order: Calculating dependencies done! [ebuild R] sys-libs/ncurses-5.9-r3:5 [ebuild N ] net-dns/libidn-1.28 [ebuild N ] kde-base/kde-env-4.12.5:4/4.12 [ebuild N ] dev-libs/libpcre-8.35:3 [ebuild N ] app-admin/eselect-qtgraphicssystem-1.1.1 0 kB [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qtcore-4.8.5-r2:4 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qtscript-4.8.5:4 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qtgui-4.8.5-r3:4 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qtsql-4.8.5:4 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qt3support-4.8.5:4 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qtdbus-4.8.5:4 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qtsvg-4.8.5:4 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qttest-4.8.5:4 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/designer-4.8.5:4 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qtopengl-4.8.5:4 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qtxmlpatterns-4.8.5:4 [ebuild N ] app-crypt/qca-2.0.3:2 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qtwebkit-4.8.5:4 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qtdeclarative-4.8.5:4 [ebuild N ] x11-libs/libXScrnSaver-1.2.2-r1 [ebuild N ] media-libs/libmpeg2-0.5.1-r2 [ebuild N ] media-libs/libmad-0.15.1b-r7 [ebuild N ] media-video/vlc-2.1.2:0/5-7 [ebuild N ] dev-util/automoc-0.9.88 9 kB [ebuild N ] kde-base/oxygen-icons-4.12.5:4/4.12 [ebuild N ] media-libs/qimageblitz-0.0.6-r1 [ebuild N ] dev-libs/libattica-0.4.2 [ebuild N ] dev-libs/libdbusmenu-qt-0.9.2 [ebuild N ] app-misc/strigi-0.7.8 [ebuild N ] media-libs/phonon-4.6.0-r1 [ebuild N ] media-libs/phonon-vlc-0.6.2 [ebuild N ] kde-base/kdelibs-4.12.5-r1:4/4.12 [ebuild N ] kde-base/katepart-4.12.5:4/4.12 [ebuild N ] kde-base/libkexiv2-4.12.5:4/4.12 [ebuild N ] kde-base/okular-4.12.5-r1:4/4.12 Total: 35 packages (34 new, 1 reinstall), Size of downloads: 309,990 kB I'm going to take issue with this post. Walter, you have completely misjudged what KDE is designed to do and are blaming it unfairly. KDE apps are not designed to run in isolation - they run in a greater context. That context is the KDE system. It was designed with the view that an app like okular will be installed alongside other similar apps that let you deal with other filetypes. Like audio, video, graphics, text. And so on. To do this, it needs the libs it is built on. And it needs a graphics toolkit - Qt. The reason you got such a long list of packages to install is because you do not have any Qt installed at all. If you did not have any X installed at all and wanted to emerge xpdf you would get a similar long list for exactly the same reason. The point I'm trying to make is that KDe was not designed with you in mind. KDE could never work for you because of your viewpoint and
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
Am 31.07.2014 05:50, schrieb Alec Ten Harmsel: okular is not a 'stinking pdf reader'. Nice try. But just like konqueror it is just a wrapper around kparts and is able to deal with a lot more files than just pdf and postscript. That is what 'modular' and 'code reuse' really means. And the opposite to what gnome does. 'oh, there is an app. Hijack it and gnomify it and make it dependent on 2 douzend gnome libs that all do the same but nobody ever cleaned up'. You're right about the code reuse if you're running KDE, but I'd rather not install *all* of Qt and a bunch of other crap just to view PDFs and such. I think that's all he's arguing. well, do you complain if you have to install *all* of gtk + gnome objects+introspection+gconf? I love having KDE on my desktop (and okular is really nice), but on my laptop (i3wm) I spend the vast majority of my time in vim and on the terminal and shouldn't have to essentially install KDE to view a PDF when I need to check some LaTeX formatting. Just contrast with evince; I disabled nautilus integration, and my machine only has 5 gnome packages, 2 of which are icon sets. Alec . how much do you have to install if you deactivate all use flags for okular? well, you still have all of qt... and kdelibs and phonon... but you would loose a lot of the other stuff. vlc support in phonon is as optional as tiff or chm in okular.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
Clicked send too soon... On Thursday, July 31, 2014 10:32:34 AM J. Roeleveld wrote: On Thursday, July 31, 2014 08:34:09 AM Alan McKinnon wrote: On 31/07/2014 03:55, Walter Dnes wrote: snipped Seems that if I want to emerge and use KDE's pdf reader, I need... phonon vlc (or gstreamer) libmpeg libmad net-dns/libidn dev-qt/qtwebkit ...***FOR A STINKING PDF READER***. Here's the emerge -pv okular output with USE flag listings edited out... [d531][waltdnes][~] emerge -pv okular | sed s/USE.*$// These are the packages that would be merged, in order: Total: 35 packages (34 new, 1 reinstall), Size of downloads: 309,990 kB I'm going to take issue with this post. Walter, you have completely misjudged what KDE is designed to do and are blaming it unfairly. KDE apps are not designed to run in isolation - they run in a greater context. That context is the KDE system. It was designed with the view that an app like okular will be installed alongside other similar apps that let you deal with other filetypes. Like audio, video, graphics, text. And so on. To do this, it needs the libs it is built on. And it needs a graphics toolkit - Qt. The reason you got such a long list of packages to install is because you do not have any Qt installed at all. If you did not have any X installed at all and wanted to emerge xpdf you would get a similar long list for exactly the same reason. The point I'm trying to make is that KDe was not designed with you in mind. KDE could never work for you because of your viewpoint and that viewpoint is in your sig. So please stop blaming KDE for doing what KDE does correctly and well. Just realise that you are not the target audience. +1 I quite like KDE and it worked quite well on my old netboot (Asus EEE 901 with 16GB SSD and 1GB ram) This worked quite well for me, until the mainboard fried... As an analogy most of the world wants a sedan so Toyota makes the Yaris for them. Actually, because governments are trying to get people to move into smaller cars, car companies ended up with motorised shopping carts like the Yaris. People who actually need to travel a lot on motorways do tend to prefer slightly bigger cars like a VW Golf, Ford Focus or Peugeot 308. People with smaller budgets then end up with the Polo, Fiesta or 208. -- Joost
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
On Wednesday 30 July 2014 23:50:51 Alec Ten Harmsel wrote: I love having KDE on my desktop (and okular is really nice), but on my laptop (i3wm) I spend the vast majority of my time in vim and on the terminal and shouldn't have to essentially install KDE to view a PDF when I need to check some LaTeX formatting. So on that box you wouldn't choose a KDE program. Simple. -- Regards Peter
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
On Thu, 31 Jul 2014 04:41:24 +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: I occasionally tried razorqt or enlightenment or twm... and yeah, they load quickly. And then they are all useless for me. That's basically my experience. I'm impressed with the speed then find I can't do what I want because the DE just can't do it. It may not do what I want, but at least it doesn't do it at great speed :( -- Neil Bothwick When puns are outlawed only outlaws will have puns. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 okular is not a 'stinking pdf reader'. Nice try. But just like konqueror it is just a wrapper around kparts and is able to deal with a lot more files than just pdf and postscript. That is what 'modular' and 'code reuse' really means. And the opposite to what gnome does. 'oh, there is an app. Hijack it and gnomify it and make it dependent on 2 douzend gnome libs that all do the same but nobody ever cleaned up'. You're right about the code reuse if you're running KDE, but I'd rather not install *all* of Qt and a bunch of other crap just to view PDFs and such. I think that's all he's arguing. well, do you complain if you have to install *all* of gtk + gnome objects+introspection+gconf? I love having KDE on my desktop (and okular is really nice), but on my laptop (i3wm) I spend the vast majority of my time in vim and on the terminal and shouldn't have to essentially install KDE to view a PDF when I need to check some LaTeX formatting. Just contrast with evince; I disabled nautilus integration, and my machine only has 5 gnome packages, 2 of which are icon sets. Alec . how much do you have to install if you deactivate all use flags for okular? well, you still have all of qt... and kdelibs and phonon... but you would loose a lot of the other stuff. vlc support in phonon is as optional as tiff or chm in okular. Alright, you got me there. I was a little over-dosed on coffee when I wrote that. I forgot about gtk since I already had a gtk app or two when I installed evince. So on that box you wouldn't choose a KDE program. Simple. Yes, it was simple. Everything on gentoo is just s simple ;) I think this is the first discussion about desktop environments I've ever seen that hasn't degenerated into a complete flame war. I love this list. Alec -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJT2h5hAAoJEPllmEtQaNTUxeoH/0zgKbpTWJZ98jATM1XBbu8E ClkQgyddzvtKXlKfTrQwTzTU/rayA34EEdGDKiEgkvHhN2xHYbe//WlI9GPM1zfO RHi+Ag8/Nmocsqd5eMv+56ZdzvmVaq1teQKF2Z0WgLa0dAO/PdS+dBncN2kYvV2q wGliLCZeVD3hDVdiBZ2kq6R8+VuAzHDLS8CSH6bAXVsy9ItTMLLHeNErSI/ibA6W da3QWiSIpQ2cW18EK85OosHvWFUiU5WpO0Qw3/VpHDDQ3nQmWh5r1TXCLXFJIWB8 833DmjFk6sneiJy52n2KMwlVqGkmmC98IEviSCaY1U5F+W6QPLYkvnGks98cksQ= =zRTD -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
On 31/07/2014 12:45, Alec Ten Harmsel wrote: So on that box you wouldn't choose a KDE program. Simple. Yes, it was simple. Everything on gentoo is just s simple ;) I think this is the first discussion about desktop environments I've ever seen that hasn't degenerated into a complete flame war. I love this list. Just wait till Neil, me and a few others swing the topic over to WW II fighter aircraft. The flames will start then. -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
On 31 July 2014 15:37:51 CEST, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: On 31/07/2014 12:45, Alec Ten Harmsel wrote: So on that box you wouldn't choose a KDE program. Simple. Yes, it was simple. Everything on gentoo is just s simple ;) I think this is the first discussion about desktop environments I've ever seen that hasn't degenerated into a complete flame war. I love this list. Just wait till Neil, me and a few others swing the topic over to WW II fighter aircraft. The flames will start then. Speaking of which... One of my wishlist items is a fully functional B25. Would be great during parties with children around :) -- Joost -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
On Thu, 31 Jul 2014 16:16:06 +0200, J. Roeleveld wrote: Just wait till Neil, me and a few others swing the topic over to WW II fighter aircraft. The flames will start then. Speaking of which... One of my wishlist items is a fully functional B25. Would be great during parties with children around :) The B25 was a bomber, please try to stay on topic :P -- Neil Bothwick Rainbows are just to look at, not to really understand. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
On Thu, 31 Jul 2014 15:33:38 +0100, Neil Bothwick wrote: Just wait till Neil, me and a few others swing the topic over to WW II fighter aircraft. The flames will start then. Speaking of which... One of my wishlist items is a fully functional B25. Would be great during parties with children around :) The B25 was a bomber, please try to stay on topic :P Unless you meant Blackburn B-25, but then you'd need the carrier to go with it, and ships are definitely off topic. -- Neil Bothwick Three kinds of people: those who can count and those who can't. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
On 31 July 2014 16:33:38 CEST, Neil Bothwick n...@digimed.co.uk wrote: On Thu, 31 Jul 2014 16:16:06 +0200, J. Roeleveld wrote: Just wait till Neil, me and a few others swing the topic over to WW II fighter aircraft. The flames will start then. Speaking of which... One of my wishlist items is a fully functional B25. Would be great during parties with children around :) The B25 was a bomber, please try to stay on topic :P Last off topic one about planes in this thread. A model version is fun to drop stuff from for kids to collect after the bombing run -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 10:47:29AM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote how much do you have to install if you deactivate all use flags for okular? well, you still have all of qt... and kdelibs and phonon... but you would loose a lot of the other stuff. vlc support in phonon is as optional as tiff or chm in okular. When reading pdf files, one expects images, so tiff and jpeg are reasonable flags. One does *NOT* expect audio stuff like phonon. And phonon *DEMANDS SOMETHING*. vlc is one of the options that satisfies phonon's demands. Or you could choose gstreamer and its gazillion plugins. -- Walter Dnes waltd...@waltdnes.org I don't run desktop environments; I run useful applications
[gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
behrouz khosravi bz.khosravi at gmail.com writes:
Walter Dnes waltdnes at waltdnes.org wrote:
In my make.conf I have...
USE_BASE=-* a52 aac bzip2 cxx fortran ncurses netifrc nptl nptlonly
nsplugin offensive openssl posix
readline ssl threads vim-syntax zlib
USE_CPU=mmx mmxext sse sse2 sse3 ssse3
USE_VIDEO=X dga dri exif ffmpeg flac classic gif intel jpeg mng mp3
mpeg ogg opengl png rtmp theora tiff
truetype vorbis xcomposite webm x264 xpm xv xvid xvmc
USE=${USE_BASE} ${USE_CPU} ${USE_VIDEO}
The way that you have managed the USE flag is neat, and I will do the same.
Thanks for your help.
Howdy Behrouz,
Gentoo is a very wonderful OS, and we have lots of Special folks
that are very capable, wise but often tainted, as you will discover.
Walter, like myself, is a minmalist. Others are right too, that your first
journey into Gentoo you need to follow the beaten path for a while
before you venture out, naked and alone. We've all borked a system or 2,
some abuse the that honor
YOU have chosen a somewhat minimalist path with your desktop, wisely
avoiding bloat_ware_city. But, to avoid pain do keep some minimal
collection of flags. Python is CRITICAL on gentoo, so ask before
verging out on Python!
Look at the defaults for your selected profile and what Walter has
suggested. jArch_Linux documentation is often useful too. When in doubt,
keep the flag, until you are assured it's removal will not result in a
broken (borked?) system. You have a lot of reading to do on the
www.gentoo.wiki and other gentoo pages (here are a few)
man euse (euse -i flag and euse -flag)
eix package (man eix)
man equery
gentoolkit (is your swiss army knife for gentoo)
http://www.gentoo.org/dyn/use-index.xml#doc_chap1
http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/OpenRC
(hopefully, you are using openrc and not systemd ?)
http://swift.siphos.be/linux_sea/
(Sven is a great human! He not only overseas much of the documentation,
he one of the SeLinux folks, should you venture into those waters)
This is not a complete list of good reading by any means, but a start.
good hunting!
James
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
On Wed, 30 Jul 2014 14:07:30 + (UTC), James wrote: YOU have chosen a somewhat minimalist path with your desktop, wisely avoiding bloat_ware_city Personally, I prefer USE=-hyperbole :) But, to avoid pain do keep some minimal collection of flags. Python is CRITICAL on gentoo, so ask before verging out on Python! Bear in mind that USE flags control *optional* features and dependencies. Setting USE=-python will not prevent python being installed, nor will it break portage, but it will de-bloat those packages that come with optional python interfaces and bindings. One USE flags that new users often select, mistakenly, is doc. Package documentation such as man pages, info pages and readmes is installed by default. The doc USE flag enables the building and installation of developer and API documentation, and usually comes with a swathe of dependencies. It should never be enabled globally. -- Neil Bothwick There is absolutely no substitute for a genuine lack of preparation. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
Am 30.07.2014 17:02, schrieb Neil Bothwick: On Wed, 30 Jul 2014 14:07:30 + (UTC), James wrote: YOU have chosen a somewhat minimalist path with your desktop, wisely avoiding bloat_ware_city Personally, I prefer USE=-hyperbole :) But, to avoid pain do keep some minimal collection of flags. Python is CRITICAL on gentoo, so ask before verging out on Python! Bear in mind that USE flags control *optional* features and dependencies. Setting USE=-python will not prevent python being installed, nor will it break portage, but it will de-bloat those packages that come with optional python interfaces and bindings. and it might break packages in features in surprising ways. People who tell newbies that -* could be used at all, should be flogged. In a public place. With video. This 'de-bloat' crap - who came up with that? People who use it all the times seldomly realize that the 'small and unbloated' software they use is in a lot of cases neither small, nor not bloated.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 6:37 PM, James wirel...@tampabay.rr.com wrote: ... Thanks for your advice. They were surely helpful. http://swift.siphos.be/linux_sea/ (Sven is a great human! He not only overseas much of the documentation, he one of the SeLinux folks, should you venture into those waters) Oh yea, I have read the Linux Sea and it was great. Very Informative.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
On 30/07/2014 20:02, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: This 'de-bloat' crap - who came up with that? People who use it all the times seldomly realize that the 'small and unbloated' software they use is in a lot of cases neither small, nor not bloated. Usually it comes from the same headspace that ricing comes from. Humans are all about perception, very very very few of them can actually look at things in an unbiased way. So it goes like this: User hates Gnome. [opinion] User decides that because Gnome integrates so many things vertically then Gnome must necessarily be bloated. [invalid conclusion not backed up by facts] User decides to try Razor|LXDE|Enlightenment|*box|whatever [valid activity] User likes whatever [opinion] User concludes that whatever is therefore better than Gnome [erronously equate specific opinion with fact for the general case] Therefore whatever is not bloated and Gnome is, to satisfy wrong conclusion at #2 [I can't even begin to think what fallacy this is] Not much opinion in any of that. We humans are mostly hard-wired to react based on past experience and data blindly accepted as fact in the past. 9 times out of 10 this helps you leap out of the way of the tiger seeking to have you for lunch. You got this ability from dad's genes and it must be raising the odds for you and he otherwise he wouldn't have survived long enough to sire you. If you stop to think about the tiger, he is for sure going to have a nice lunch. So we humans that survived did so by jumping to conclusions and having them work out OK on average. This new-fangled idea of actually thinking about things all the way through is a very new idea, and most of the species hasn't gotten the hang of it yet. So now you know why ricers swear blind that -pipe in CFLAGS *doubles* the running speed, dude! -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
[gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
behrouz khosravi bz.khosravi at gmail.com writes: On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 6:37 PM, James wireless at tampabay.rr.com wrote: Thanks for your advice. They were surely helpful. My pleasure. This 'de-bloat' crap - who came up with that? People who use it all the times seldomly realize that the 'small and unbloated' software they use is in a lot of cases neither small, nor not bloated. I wish I could take credit for it; it is a very, very popular concept, characterize our newest noob, as you like Lots of folks have lots of reasons to reduce the space/ram/cup resource consumption, particularly for things they do not want and quite often due to constraints on resources(ymmv). Usually it comes from the same headspace that ricing comes from. Wow, dude! a serious compliment from one of my many heros! Do remember that my knowledge of ricing comes from the very coolest and early vintige motorcycles: https://www.google.com/search?client=seamonkey-arls=org.mozilla: en-US:unofficialtbm=ischsource=univsa=Xei=BjzZU_iXEuvmsAT74oKADA ved=0CEoQsAQbiw=886bih=829q=Original rice-rockets motorcycle Bloat (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bloated) Full Definition of BLOATED 1 : obnoxiously vain a bloated ego 2 a : being much larger than what is warranted a bloated estimate now now boys, try not be so full of angst with your choices. Gentoo is about choices; and bloat by it's very nature, is in the eyes of the beholder. Some guys like a 'big boodie, some guys like it skinny! From a technical perspective, just look at the amazing world of embedded systems.. bloat will get you fired cause your embedded system will run slower than your competitors on similar hardware. Enjoy! James
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
On Wed, 30 Jul 2014 20:02:11 +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: YOU have chosen a somewhat minimalist path with your desktop, wisely avoiding bloat_ware_city Personally, I prefer USE=-hyperbole :) But, to avoid pain do keep some minimal collection of flags. Python is CRITICAL on gentoo, so ask before verging out on Python! Bear in mind that USE flags control *optional* features and dependencies. Setting USE=-python will not prevent python being installed, nor will it break portage, but it will de-bloat those packages that come with optional python interfaces and bindings. and it might break packages in features in surprising ways. People who tell newbies that -* could be used at all, should be flogged. In a public place. With video. :-) This 'de-bloat' crap - who came up with that? I hope you realise I was being ironic there, in responding to a bloat hater :) People who use it all the times seldomly realize that the 'small and unbloated' software they use is in a lot of cases neither small, nor not bloated. Small software can be bloated, large software can be bloat-free. It's all about what is useful. functional != bloated, but all too often lightweight, bloat free software can also be described as limited or functionally challenged. -- Neil Bothwick Yeah, but what's the speed of dark? signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
On 30/07/2014 20:56, James wrote: Usually it comes from the same headspace that ricing comes from. Wow, dude! a serious compliment from one of my many heros! Do remember that my knowledge of ricing comes from the very coolest and early vintige motorcycles: The word ricing has a fine honourable heritage from way back many years ago. But lately it means something else altogether :-( Much like hacking -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
Neil Bothwick wrote: Small software can be bloated, large software can be bloat-free. It's all about what is useful. functional != bloated, but all too often lightweight, bloat free software can also be described as limited or functionally challenged. That is true. Some code can be really small and do a lot. Same can be said for the opposite. Maybe this comparison will work. Small and gets the job done. Bicycle. Bloated. 18 wheeler truck. If all you want to do is ride a relatively short distance with no load, bicycle will get the job done. It won't do well if you want to move 20 tons somewhere tho. The 18 wheeler truck is good if you need to pull 20 tons somewhere but is a bit bloated if you are just going to ride up the street to see a neighbor. It's also a bit harder to park too. ;-) While to me KDE is bloated, I just try to disable what I can and carry on. If my system was limited on resources, then I may use something else. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
On Wednesday 30 July 2014 20:26:48 Alan McKinnon wrote: On 30/07/2014 20:02, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: This 'de-bloat' crap - who came up with that? People who use it all the times seldomly realize that the 'small and unbloated' software they use is in a lot of cases neither small, nor not bloated. Usually it comes from the same headspace that ricing comes from. Humans are all about perception, very very very few of them can actually look at things in an unbiased way. So it goes like this: User hates Gnome. [opinion] User decides that because Gnome integrates so many things vertically then Gnome must necessarily be bloated. [invalid conclusion not backed up by facts] User decides to try Razor|LXDE|Enlightenment|*box|whatever [valid activity] User likes whatever [opinion] User concludes that whatever is therefore better than Gnome [erronously equate specific opinion with fact for the general case] Therefore whatever is not bloated and Gnome is, to satisfy wrong conclusion at #2 [I can't even begin to think what fallacy this is] Not much opinion in any of that. We humans are mostly hard-wired to react based on past experience and data blindly accepted as fact in the past. 9 times out of 10 this helps you leap out of the way of the tiger seeking to have you for lunch. You got this ability from dad's genes and it must be raising the odds for you and he otherwise he wouldn't have survived long enough to sire you. If you stop to think about the tiger, he is for sure going to have a nice lunch. So we humans that survived did so by jumping to conclusions and having them work out OK on average. This new-fangled idea of actually thinking about things all the way through is a very new idea, and most of the species hasn't gotten the hang of it yet. This does still seem to be a valid survival requirement for a large part of the worlds population though, including where you are. For people living in a so-called civilized world, tigers are only found inside places commonly called a zoo :) So now you know why ricers swear blind that -pipe in CFLAGS *doubles* the running speed, dude! It does! I enabled -pipe in my CFLAGS and all the software was running a lot faster on my new machine compared to my old one ;) -- Joost
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
Am 30.07.2014 22:18, schrieb Joost Roeleveld: So now you know why ricers swear blind that -pipe in CFLAGS *doubles* the running speed, dude! It does! I enabled -pipe in my CFLAGS and all the software was running a lot faster on my new machine compared to my old one ;) aaah a aahhh thepainmakeitstop *g*
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
Am 30.07.2014 21:48, schrieb Dale: Neil Bothwick wrote: Small software can be bloated, large software can be bloat-free. It's all about what is useful. functional != bloated, but all too often lightweight, bloat free software can also be described as limited or functionally challenged. That is true. Some code can be really small and do a lot. Same can be said for the opposite. Maybe this comparison will work. Small and gets the job done. Bicycle. Bloated. 18 wheeler truck. If all you want to do is ride a relatively short distance with no load, bicycle will get the job done. It won't do well if you want to move 20 tons somewhere tho. The 18 wheeler truck is good if you need to pull 20 tons somewhere but is a bit bloated if you are just going to ride up the street to see a neighbor. It's also a bit harder to park too. ;-) While to me KDE is bloated, I just try to disable what I can and carry on. If my system was limited on resources, then I may use something else. and maybe you did exactly the wrong thing. KDE is very modular and reuses its modules as much as it can. Which also means: memory is only used once. There were once a very good (in my not so humble opinion. It think very highly of myself) comparism here: http://ktown.kde.org/~seli/memory/ (url is dead btw) and if you actually use kde apps in kde - memory consumption is lower than in either gnome or 'leightweight' solutions like xfce or windowmaker+stuff. http://web.archive.org/web/20071229030604/http://ktown.kde.org/~seli/memory/desktop_benchmark.html
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
On 30/07/2014 22:22, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: Am 30.07.2014 22:18, schrieb Joost Roeleveld: So now you know why ricers swear blind that -pipe in CFLAGS *doubles* the running speed, dude! It does! I enabled -pipe in my CFLAGS and all the software was running a lot faster on my new machine compared to my old one ;) aaah a aahhh thepainmakeitstop *g* but but but but, -pipe is Gentoo's go-fast-stripes! I can see it for myself - my Acer Aspire One and my i7 laptop both have -pipe enabled and the laptop is soo much faster at compiling! See? -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
Am 30.07.2014 22:43, schrieb Alan McKinnon: On 30/07/2014 22:22, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: Am 30.07.2014 22:18, schrieb Joost Roeleveld: So now you know why ricers swear blind that -pipe in CFLAGS *doubles* the running speed, dude! It does! I enabled -pipe in my CFLAGS and all the software was running a lot faster on my new machine compared to my old one ;) aaah a aahhh thepainmakeitstop *g* but but but but, -pipe is Gentoo's go-fast-stripes! I can see it for myself - my Acer Aspire One and my i7 laptop both have -pipe enabled and the laptop is soo much faster at compiling! See? so much pain. so much hatred.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: and maybe you did exactly the wrong thing. KDE is very modular and reuses its modules as much as it can. Which also means: memory is only used once. There were once a very good (in my not so humble opinion. It think very highly of myself) comparism here: http://ktown.kde.org/~seli/memory/ (url is dead btw) and if you actually use kde apps in kde - memory consumption is lower than in either gnome or 'leightweight' solutions like xfce or windowmaker+stuff. http://web.archive.org/web/20071229030604/http://ktown.kde.org/~seli/memory/desktop_benchmark.html The biggest thing for me, is just stuff I don't use or ever see me needing. At one point, can't recall version, KDE4 was a bit of a memory hog. It seems they have cleaned that up a lot since tho. Even on my old rig which had 3GBs of ram and KDE3, it wasn't to bad on memory. CPU wise tho, I'd hate to run KDE4 on my old rig. It is just to slow for KDE4. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
On Wed, 30 Jul 2014 15:54:07 -0500, Dale wrote: The biggest thing for me, is just stuff I don't use or ever see me needing. At one point, can't recall version, KDE4 was a bit of a memory hog. It seems they have cleaned that up a lot since tho. Even on my old rig which had 3GBs of ram and KDE3, it wasn't to bad on memory. CPU wise tho, I'd hate to run KDE4 on my old rig. It is just to slow for KDE4. I used to run KDE on a netbook with 2GB and it ran very well. True, LXDE was faster, but it did less. Not doing stuff faster isn't a benefit in my book. -- Neil Bothwick Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
On 31/07/14 04:22, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: Am 30.07.2014 22:18, schrieb Joost Roeleveld: So now you know why ricers swear blind that -pipe in CFLAGS *doubles* the running speed, dude! It does! I enabled -pipe in my CFLAGS and all the software was running a lot faster on my new machine compared to my old one ;) aaah a aahhh thepainmakeitstop *g* anyone got benchmarks on -pipe -pipe ? more is better, right ... :) BillK
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
Neil Bothwick wrote: On Wed, 30 Jul 2014 15:54:07 -0500, Dale wrote: The biggest thing for me, is just stuff I don't use or ever see me needing. At one point, can't recall version, KDE4 was a bit of a memory hog. It seems they have cleaned that up a lot since tho. Even on my old rig which had 3GBs of ram and KDE3, it wasn't to bad on memory. CPU wise tho, I'd hate to run KDE4 on my old rig. It is just to slow for KDE4. I used to run KDE on a netbook with 2GB and it ran very well. True, LXDE was faster, but it did less. Not doing stuff faster isn't a benefit in my book. That's why I use KDE still. There are things it does that I like plus my new rig is fast enough and has plenty of ram. My old rig tho, not KDE4. I don't think I would even try it. KDE4 is the reason I built this new rig. I do have Fluxbox installed tho. I have been known to use it a few times too. It is so fast it is unreal. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 10:31:50PM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote Am 30.07.2014 21:48, schrieb Dale: While to me KDE is bloated, I just try to disable what I can and carry on. If my system was limited on resources, then I may use something else. and maybe you did exactly the wrong thing. KDE is very modular and reuses its modules as much as it can. Which also means: memory is only used once. There were once a very good (in my not so humble opinion. It think very highly of myself) comparism here: http://ktown.kde.org/~seli/memory/ (url is dead btw) and if you actually use kde apps in kde - memory consumption is lower than in either gnome or 'leightweight' solutions like xfce or windowmaker+stuff. http://web.archive.org/web/20071229030604/http://ktown.kde.org/~seli/memory/desktop_benchmark.html The problem with KDE apps is that they're imitating what MS did with Internet Explorer. They pointed to the itsy-bitsy-teeny-weeny little ie.exe that you could delete if you felt like doing so. They deliberately obfuscated that it was merely a front end to a ton of system libraries that you could not remove. Back when xpdf was being deprecated, various replacement options were suggested. I chose mupdf rather than the KDE app okular. Here's why. After multiple attempts at emerge -pv okular, I found I had to add at least the following to package.use to get it to work... dev-libs/libattica qt4 media-libs/phonon vlc media-video/vlc dbus xcb -ffmpeg dev-qt/qtcore qt3support dev-qt/qtdeclarative accessibility qt3support dev-qt/qtgui accessibility qt3support dev-qt/qtopengl qt3support dev-qt/qt3support accessibility dev-qt/qtsql qt3support sqlite dev-qt/qtsvg accessibility sys-libs/ncurses unicode Seems that if I want to emerge and use KDE's pdf reader, I need... phonon vlc (or gstreamer) libmpeg libmad net-dns/libidn dev-qt/qtwebkit ...***FOR A STINKING PDF READER***. Here's the emerge -pv okular output with USE flag listings edited out... [d531][waltdnes][~] emerge -pv okular | sed s/USE.*$// These are the packages that would be merged, in order: Calculating dependencies done! [ebuild R] sys-libs/ncurses-5.9-r3:5 [ebuild N ] net-dns/libidn-1.28 [ebuild N ] kde-base/kde-env-4.12.5:4/4.12 [ebuild N ] dev-libs/libpcre-8.35:3 [ebuild N ] app-admin/eselect-qtgraphicssystem-1.1.1 0 kB [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qtcore-4.8.5-r2:4 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qtscript-4.8.5:4 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qtgui-4.8.5-r3:4 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qtsql-4.8.5:4 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qt3support-4.8.5:4 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qtdbus-4.8.5:4 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qtsvg-4.8.5:4 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qttest-4.8.5:4 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/designer-4.8.5:4 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qtopengl-4.8.5:4 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qtxmlpatterns-4.8.5:4 [ebuild N ] app-crypt/qca-2.0.3:2 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qtwebkit-4.8.5:4 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qtdeclarative-4.8.5:4 [ebuild N ] x11-libs/libXScrnSaver-1.2.2-r1 [ebuild N ] media-libs/libmpeg2-0.5.1-r2 [ebuild N ] media-libs/libmad-0.15.1b-r7 [ebuild N ] media-video/vlc-2.1.2:0/5-7 [ebuild N ] dev-util/automoc-0.9.88 9 kB [ebuild N ] kde-base/oxygen-icons-4.12.5:4/4.12 [ebuild N ] media-libs/qimageblitz-0.0.6-r1 [ebuild N ] dev-libs/libattica-0.4.2 [ebuild N ] dev-libs/libdbusmenu-qt-0.9.2 [ebuild N ] app-misc/strigi-0.7.8 [ebuild N ] media-libs/phonon-4.6.0-r1 [ebuild N ] media-libs/phonon-vlc-0.6.2 [ebuild N ] kde-base/kdelibs-4.12.5-r1:4/4.12 [ebuild N ] kde-base/katepart-4.12.5:4/4.12 [ebuild N ] kde-base/libkexiv2-4.12.5:4/4.12 [ebuild N ] kde-base/okular-4.12.5-r1:4/4.12 Total: 35 packages (34 new, 1 reinstall), Size of downloads: 309,990 kB -- Walter Dnes waltd...@waltdnes.org I don't run desktop environments; I run useful applications
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
Am 31.07.2014 02:26, schrieb Dale: Neil Bothwick wrote: On Wed, 30 Jul 2014 15:54:07 -0500, Dale wrote: The biggest thing for me, is just stuff I don't use or ever see me needing. At one point, can't recall version, KDE4 was a bit of a memory hog. It seems they have cleaned that up a lot since tho. Even on my old rig which had 3GBs of ram and KDE3, it wasn't to bad on memory. CPU wise tho, I'd hate to run KDE4 on my old rig. It is just to slow for KDE4. I used to run KDE on a netbook with 2GB and it ran very well. True, LXDE was faster, but it did less. Not doing stuff faster isn't a benefit in my book. That's why I use KDE still. There are things it does that I like plus my new rig is fast enough and has plenty of ram. My old rig tho, not KDE4. I don't think I would even try it. KDE4 is the reason I built this new rig. I do have Fluxbox installed tho. I have been known to use it a few times too. It is so fast it is unreal. Dale :-) :-) I occasionally tried razorqt or enlightenment or twm... and yeah, they load quickly. And then they are all useless for me.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
Am 31.07.2014 03:55, schrieb Walter Dnes: On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 10:31:50PM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote Am 30.07.2014 21:48, schrieb Dale: While to me KDE is bloated, I just try to disable what I can and carry on. If my system was limited on resources, then I may use something else. and maybe you did exactly the wrong thing. KDE is very modular and reuses its modules as much as it can. Which also means: memory is only used once. There were once a very good (in my not so humble opinion. It think very highly of myself) comparism here: http://ktown.kde.org/~seli/memory/ (url is dead btw) and if you actually use kde apps in kde - memory consumption is lower than in either gnome or 'leightweight' solutions like xfce or windowmaker+stuff. http://web.archive.org/web/20071229030604/http://ktown.kde.org/~seli/memory/desktop_benchmark.html The problem with KDE apps is that they're imitating what MS did with Internet Explorer. They pointed to the itsy-bitsy-teeny-weeny little ie.exe that you could delete if you felt like doing so. They deliberately obfuscated that it was merely a front end to a ton of system libraries that you could not remove. Back when xpdf was being deprecated, various replacement options were suggested. I chose mupdf rather than the KDE app okular. Here's why. After multiple attempts at emerge -pv okular, I found I had to add at least the following to package.use to get it to work... dev-libs/libattica qt4 media-libs/phonon vlc media-video/vlc dbus xcb -ffmpeg dev-qt/qtcore qt3support dev-qt/qtdeclarative accessibility qt3support dev-qt/qtgui accessibility qt3support dev-qt/qtopengl qt3support dev-qt/qt3support accessibility dev-qt/qtsql qt3support sqlite dev-qt/qtsvg accessibility sys-libs/ncurses unicode Seems that if I want to emerge and use KDE's pdf reader, I need... phonon vlc (or gstreamer) libmpeg libmad net-dns/libidn dev-qt/qtwebkit ...***FOR A STINKING PDF READER***. Here's the emerge -pv okular okular is not a 'stinking pdf reader'. Nice try. But just like konqueror it is just a wrapper around kparts and is able to deal with a lot more files than just pdf and postscript. That is what 'modular' and 'code reuse' really means. And the opposite to what gnome does. 'oh, there is an app. Hijack it and gnomify it and make it dependent on 2 douzend gnome libs that all do the same but nobody ever cleaned up'. output with USE flag listings edited out... you know - useflags or tree would have been so much more meaningful... [d531][waltdnes][~] emerge -pv okular | sed s/USE.*$// These are the packages that would be merged, in order: Calculating dependencies done! [ebuild R] sys-libs/ncurses-5.9-r3:5 [ebuild N ] net-dns/libidn-1.28 [ebuild N ] kde-base/kde-env-4.12.5:4/4.12 [ebuild N ] dev-libs/libpcre-8.35:3 [ebuild N ] app-admin/eselect-qtgraphicssystem-1.1.1 0 kB [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qtcore-4.8.5-r2:4 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qtscript-4.8.5:4 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qtgui-4.8.5-r3:4 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qtsql-4.8.5:4 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qt3support-4.8.5:4 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qtdbus-4.8.5:4 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qtsvg-4.8.5:4 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qttest-4.8.5:4 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/designer-4.8.5:4 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qtopengl-4.8.5:4 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qtxmlpatterns-4.8.5:4 [ebuild N ] app-crypt/qca-2.0.3:2 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qtwebkit-4.8.5:4 [ebuild N ] dev-qt/qtdeclarative-4.8.5:4 [ebuild N ] x11-libs/libXScrnSaver-1.2.2-r1 [ebuild N ] media-libs/libmpeg2-0.5.1-r2 [ebuild N ] media-libs/libmad-0.15.1b-r7 [ebuild N ] media-video/vlc-2.1.2:0/5-7 [ebuild N ] dev-util/automoc-0.9.88 9 kB [ebuild N ] kde-base/oxygen-icons-4.12.5:4/4.12 [ebuild N ] media-libs/qimageblitz-0.0.6-r1 [ebuild N ] dev-libs/libattica-0.4.2 [ebuild N ] dev-libs/libdbusmenu-qt-0.9.2 [ebuild N ] app-misc/strigi-0.7.8 [ebuild N ] media-libs/phonon-4.6.0-r1 [ebuild N ] media-libs/phonon-vlc-0.6.2 [ebuild N ] kde-base/kdelibs-4.12.5-r1:4/4.12 [ebuild N ] kde-base/katepart-4.12.5:4/4.12 [ebuild N ] kde-base/libkexiv2-4.12.5:4/4.12 [ebuild N ] kde-base/okular-4.12.5-r1:4/4.12 Total: 35 packages (34 new, 1 reinstall), Size of downloads: 309,990 kB
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling
okular is not a 'stinking pdf reader'. Nice try. But just like konqueror it is just a wrapper around kparts and is able to deal with a lot more files than just pdf and postscript. That is what 'modular' and 'code reuse' really means. And the opposite to what gnome does. 'oh, there is an app. Hijack it and gnomify it and make it dependent on 2 douzend gnome libs that all do the same but nobody ever cleaned up'. You're right about the code reuse if you're running KDE, but I'd rather not install *all* of Qt and a bunch of other crap just to view PDFs and such. I think that's all he's arguing. I love having KDE on my desktop (and okular is really nice), but on my laptop (i3wm) I spend the vast majority of my time in vim and on the terminal and shouldn't have to essentially install KDE to view a PDF when I need to check some LaTeX formatting. Just contrast with evince; I disabled nautilus integration, and my machine only has 5 gnome packages, 2 of which are icon sets. Alec
