Re: [gentoo-user] *** STOP misuing this list for personal attacks ***
On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 12:29:20PM -0500, Dale wrote: Mateusz Kowalczyk wrote: On 22/03/14 14:48, Tanstaafl wrote: On 3/22/2014 5:06 AM, Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com wrote: Helmut Jarausch wrote: Please don't use this list for personal quarrels of any kind! If someone says something you don't like - just ignore it/him. If someone insults you, reply by personal mail only. If someone says something which is*technically* wrong, just correct the facts without getting personal. I don't read every message but who is personally attacking someone? He's probably referring to my factual statement that Tom was/is acting like an arrogant prick. Lots of people confuse factual statements with personal attacks. That said, I've never been know for being tactful... ;) Go and solve this shit off-list. I'm not following the systemd thread but over the last few days but your (plural) quarrels have become far too big in number to ignore. Create a separate thread if you need it so that people can ignore it without missing actual on-topic messages. Will, since Tom finally got the point and changed his email program to not CC his replies, it seems to me that Tanstaaf, others and myself were right. It may have been off topic but if Tom would have just listened in the beginning, there wouldn't have to be so many off topic replies. Just saying. Dale I can't quite believe Tom did that. I've even stopped replying to any thread Tom participates in, because when I kindly asked him to Stop Cc'ing me (as old and rude a habit as HTML email and top-posting), he wasted my time with more than one arrogant reply, beating the dead horse(s) about why his way is correct and the rest of the world needs to change it's preferences to get in line. It's my sincere hope that someone's persistence hammered some common sense and email etiquette into his attitude. In fact, this list is so generally useless and filled with immature jerks going on senselessly about crap that I rarely read it anymore, and ^D is my largest function on this mailbox. -- List replies preferred. A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting
Re: [gentoo-user] *** STOP misuing this list for personal attacks ***
On Sun, 23 Mar 2014 04:52:47 -0500 Bruce Hill da...@happypenguincomputers.com wrote: It's my sincere hope that someone's persistence hammered some common sense and email etiquette into his attitude. Other Gentoo Developers did; but, I'll make an exception for this list. The mailing list etiquette requires people to CC all the people involved in a particular thread in replies to the mailing list, in case any of them is not subscribed. — http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Procmail -- With kind regards, Tom Wijsman (TomWij) Gentoo Developer E-mail address : tom...@gentoo.org GPG Public Key : 6D34E57D GPG Fingerprint : C165 AF18 AB4C 400B C3D2 ABF0 95B2 1FCD 6D34 E57D
Re: [gentoo-user] *** STOP misuing this list for personal attacks ***
On 23/03/2014 12:11, Tom Wijsman wrote: On Sun, 23 Mar 2014 04:52:47 -0500 Bruce Hill da...@happypenguincomputers.com wrote: It's my sincere hope that someone's persistence hammered some common sense and email etiquette into his attitude. Other Gentoo Developers did; but, I'll make an exception for this list. The mailing list etiquette requires people to CC all the people involved in a particular thread in replies to the mailing list, in case any of them is not subscribed. — http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Procmail And you have been told repeatedly that the actual real life users on this actual real life list would like you to stop doing it. We didn't write that FAQ, I fail to see how it applies and this is not -dev, not does QA play any role in this. Now please learn to play by the rules and expectations of the existing users of a community you have joined newly. If the doc is so important to you, please update it with an exception for -user and state this is the general consensus of that list. Then please learn how to back down and gracefully accept the wishes of others. You have no special rights here. -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] *** STOP misuing this list for personal attacks ***
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On 03/23/2014 04:06 PM, Alan McKinnon wrote: On 23/03/2014 12:11, Tom Wijsman wrote: On Sun, 23 Mar 2014 04:52:47 -0500 Bruce Hill da...@happypenguincomputers.com wrote: It's my sincere hope that someone's persistence hammered some common sense and email etiquette into his attitude. Other Gentoo Developers did; but, I'll make an exception for this list. The mailing list etiquette requires people to CC all the people involved in a particular thread in replies to the mailing list, in case any of them is not subscribed. — http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Procmail And you have been told repeatedly that the actual real life users on this actual real life list would like you to stop doing it. We didn't write that FAQ, I fail to see how it applies and this is not -dev, not does QA play any role in this. Now please learn to play by the rules and expectations of the existing users of a community you have joined newly. If the doc is so important to you, please update it with an exception for -user and state this is the general consensus of that list. Then please learn how to back down and gracefully accept the wishes of others. You have no special rights here. I think this thread has gone a bit off-topic. Just a reminder, Gentoo has a special team[1] designed for developers and *users* to contact if someone does not play by the rules. Please consider contacting this team if reaching an agreement is not possible, instead of using the list for arguments, conflicts etc. [1] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:ComRel - -- Regards, Markos Chandras -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iQF8BAEBCgBmBQJTLwx+XxSAAC4AKGlzc3Vlci1mcHJAbm90YXRpb25zLm9w ZW5wZ3AuZmlmdGhob3JzZW1hbi5uZXRGRDlGMzA4MUI2MzBDODQ4RDBGOEYxMjQx RjEwRUQ0QjgxREVCRjE5AAoJEB8Q7UuB3r8Z2t0H+gI+BfvraGEkpa52rIrRXYg5 xePPAvwTyrIlrlhBhw991tAQwj6p2xLtJmegVut01sM4xXn2RqaP59yZn/D9sQSi sDaEwUtRZPb+R8EQwvNXH+M52IS5W7rnPvzNs7o+wqPtHN+8LYfAfxM9gPdX8KOL U5HqCKZF2CQOeUUpGpYqPLqj8Wj7sDHI2khEy8OACFG6Ucs9LvwE8DbW5OepB4dZ f4RmaDL7W1peuYpVwuMfSORmTYLl9th49KRw8V5jNJx+YHLqoy4LDoPRANc8W2Ws W0KL72PjlBbyCi8uFBrQW2MK84RCzeuP+/SfgRwUpJ3CjGeXWFHhZnK6TPYFOo4= =6vQz -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [gentoo-user] *** STOP misuing this list for personal attacks ***
On Sun, 23 Mar 2014 18:06:12 +0200 Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: And you have been told repeatedly that the actual real life users on this actual real life list would like you to stop doing it. We didn't write that FAQ, I fail to see how it applies and this is not -dev, not does QA play any role in this. The etiquette was perceived to apply anywhere for Gentoo Developers; as you can see, this perception conflicts when coming across different expectations, and therefore the exception has been made. This isn't the first time this difference comes up; a former Gentoo Developer, Ciaran, has had a similar moment[1] on this mailing list about 10 years ago with different people around at a point of time where this appears to not have been a strict rule on this mailing list. [1]: [gentoo-user] Mailing List etiquette FAQ @ Google Groups https://groups.google.com/d/msg/linux.gentoo.user/2-Zv19Ggyus/is5ug9mcCcwJ Now please learn to play by the rules and expectations of the existing users of a community you have joined newly. The rules and expectations were perceived per etiquette; there's no other place where I can see them listed for the gentoo-user ML in specific, therefore I cannot assume one or two individuals to speak the truth about those rules. Perhaps we can start such a list of rules? It gets odd if they conflict with what Gentoo Developers are expected to do per the etiquette, you can see I need to be careful with what I do; therefore I've continued to do what a Gentoo Developer is expected to. That's why I was only convinced at the point that a lot more than those two individuals made this request; at that point, it becomes clear that this is a majority rather than those two individuals that asked me. If the doc is so important to you, please update it with an exception for -user and state this is the general consensus of that list. Done. Then please learn how to back down and gracefully accept the wishes of others. You have no special rights here. As per more users, that was done; I always intend to follow the rules. Sorry; I hope you see where this approach came from, I'm not trying to override a majority or intentionally act different than the community. Sorry again; thank you for your understanding. PS: To make it clear that I stopped: The last 15 mails were without CC. -- With kind regards, Tom Wijsman (TomWij) Gentoo Developer E-mail address : tom...@gentoo.org GPG Public Key : 6D34E57D GPG Fingerprint : C165 AF18 AB4C 400B C3D2 ABF0 95B2 1FCD 6D34 E57D
Re: [gentoo-user] *** STOP misuing this list for personal attacks ***
On 3/23/2014 12:06 PM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: On 23/03/2014 12:11, Tom Wijsman wrote: On Sun, 23 Mar 2014 04:52:47 -0500 Bruce Hill da...@happypenguincomputers.com wrote: It's my sincere hope that someone's persistence hammered some common sense and email etiquette into his attitude. Other Gentoo Developers did; but, I'll make an exception for this list. The mailing list etiquette requires people to CC all the people involved in a particular thread in replies to the mailing list, in case any of them is not subscribed. — http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Procmail Whoah. That page is in serious need of updating. Unless - do most of the gentoo lists allow posts from non-subscribers? If so, then maybe THAT policy needs to be changed. I see ZERO reason to allow that, *especially* on official dev lists, where people should be expected to know how to use Reply-To-List and/or request direct CC's when needed.
Re: [gentoo-user] *** STOP misuing this list for personal attacks ***
On Sun, 23 Mar 2014 16:31:58 +, Markos Chandras wrote: I think this thread has gone a bit off-topic. Just a reminder, Gentoo has a special team[1] designed for developers and *users* to contact if someone does not play by the rules. Please consider contacting this team if reaching an agreement is not possible, instead of using the list for arguments, conflicts etc. While this is a valid point, Tom has already started to abide by the preferred habits of this list, so there is nothing to argue about (not that that stops some people). CCed to Markos because he may not read the list regularly. -- Neil Bothwick If you give a man a fish, he's fed for a day. If you teach a man to fish, he'll buy a silly hat. If you talk about fish to a starving man, you're a consultant. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
[gentoo-user] *** STOP misuing this list for personal attacks ***
Please don't use this list for personal quarrels of any kind! If someone says something you don't like - just ignore it/him. If someone insults you, reply by personal mail only. If someone says something which is *technically* wrong, just correct the facts without getting personal. Thanks, Helmut.
Re: [gentoo-user] *** STOP misuing this list for personal attacks ***
Helmut Jarausch wrote: Please don't use this list for personal quarrels of any kind! If someone says something you don't like - just ignore it/him. If someone insults you, reply by personal mail only. If someone says something which is *technically* wrong, just correct the facts without getting personal. Thanks, Helmut. I don't read every message but who is personally attacking someone? Dale :-) :-) -- I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!
Re: [gentoo-user] *** STOP misuing this list for personal attacks ***
On 3/22/2014 5:06 AM, Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com wrote: Helmut Jarausch wrote: Please don't use this list for personal quarrels of any kind! If someone says something you don't like - just ignore it/him. If someone insults you, reply by personal mail only. If someone says something which is*technically* wrong, just correct the facts without getting personal. I don't read every message but who is personally attacking someone? He's probably referring to my factual statement that Tom was/is acting like an arrogant prick. Lots of people confuse factual statements with personal attacks. That said, I've never been know for being tactful... ;)
Re: [gentoo-user] *** STOP misuing this list for personal attacks ***
On Sat, 22 Mar 2014 10:48:46 -0400 Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org wrote: On 3/22/2014 5:06 AM, Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com wrote: Helmut Jarausch wrote: Please don't use this list for personal quarrels of any kind! If someone says something you don't like - just ignore it/him. If someone insults you, reply by personal mail only. If someone says something which is*technically* wrong, just correct the facts without getting personal. I don't read every message but who is personally attacking someone? He's probably referring to my factual statement that Tom was/is acting like an arrogant prick. This is technically wrong, we're all acting as arrogant pricks; but by picking out a certain individual, this could be perceived as a personal attack to that certain individual. However, that should not withhold that this is just part of a factual statement. This correction of mine also doesn't hold because if this could be perceived as a personal attack against us all; then, to an extent, perhaps we're all not acting as arrogant pricks. We are just mis-perceiving things; and as a result of that, misunderstanding. But maybe, under the 'profit motive', we could all be being arrogant? http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/272557/focus=272818 Sometimes, such 'profit motive's conflict, one man's profit is another man's cost; this reminds me of how the real world works, if one musician gets more fortune and fame, that goes at the cost of another. However, is that musician therefore arrogant for earning lots of money? Not necessarily; as you can see, a lot of these musicians spend excess money on good causes (education centers, countries that had a natural disaster, people with a costly to cure disease, the homeless, ...). Now, you could ask, why doesn't that maybe arrogant musician send everyone some money; well, it could cause maybe arrogant people to benefit from the money without working for it. Well, both can be perceived as being arrogant, or not being arrogant at all... People's time and money is limited; so, it is better well spent. This reminds me of John Covico's e-mail footer; it goes like this: Your life is like a penny. You're going to lose it. The question is: How do you spend it? Lots of people confuse factual statements with personal attacks. As demonstrated above, the confusion is easily made. That said, I've never been know for being tactful... ;) But what have you been known for? :) -- With kind regards, Tom Wijsman (TomWij) Gentoo Developer E-mail address : tom...@gentoo.org GPG Public Key : 6D34E57D GPG Fingerprint : C165 AF18 AB4C 400B C3D2 ABF0 95B2 1FCD 6D34 E57D
Re: [gentoo-user] *** STOP misuing this list for personal attacks ***
On 22/03/14 14:48, Tanstaafl wrote: On 3/22/2014 5:06 AM, Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com wrote: Helmut Jarausch wrote: Please don't use this list for personal quarrels of any kind! If someone says something you don't like - just ignore it/him. If someone insults you, reply by personal mail only. If someone says something which is*technically* wrong, just correct the facts without getting personal. I don't read every message but who is personally attacking someone? He's probably referring to my factual statement that Tom was/is acting like an arrogant prick. Lots of people confuse factual statements with personal attacks. That said, I've never been know for being tactful... ;) Go and solve this shit off-list. I'm not following the systemd thread but over the last few days but your (plural) quarrels have become far too big in number to ignore. Create a separate thread if you need it so that people can ignore it without missing actual on-topic messages. -- Mateusz K.
Re: [gentoo-user] *** STOP misuing this list for personal attacks ***
Mateusz Kowalczyk wrote: On 22/03/14 14:48, Tanstaafl wrote: On 3/22/2014 5:06 AM, Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com wrote: Helmut Jarausch wrote: Please don't use this list for personal quarrels of any kind! If someone says something you don't like - just ignore it/him. If someone insults you, reply by personal mail only. If someone says something which is*technically* wrong, just correct the facts without getting personal. I don't read every message but who is personally attacking someone? He's probably referring to my factual statement that Tom was/is acting like an arrogant prick. Lots of people confuse factual statements with personal attacks. That said, I've never been know for being tactful... ;) Go and solve this shit off-list. I'm not following the systemd thread but over the last few days but your (plural) quarrels have become far too big in number to ignore. Create a separate thread if you need it so that people can ignore it without missing actual on-topic messages. Will, since Tom finally got the point and changed his email program to not CC his replies, it seems to me that Tanstaaf, others and myself were right. It may have been off topic but if Tom would have just listened in the beginning, there wouldn't have to be so many off topic replies. Just saying. Dale :-) :-) -- I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!
Re: [gentoo-user] *** STOP misuing this list for personal attacks ***
On Sat, 22 Mar 2014 12:29:20 -0500 Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com wrote: Will, since Tom finally got the point and changed his email program to not CC his replies, it seems to me that Tanstaaf, others and myself were right. It is based on preventing those off-topic replies from being made. I'm still very convinced about my viewpoint; I only not CC on this ML because of those off-topic replies, at the cost of a guarantee. It may have been off topic but if Tom would have just listened in the beginning, there wouldn't have to be so many off topic replies. Such replies could be made off-list; that way, the topic can remain. -- With kind regards, Tom Wijsman (TomWij) Gentoo Developer E-mail address : tom...@gentoo.org GPG Public Key : 6D34E57D GPG Fingerprint : C165 AF18 AB4C 400B C3D2 ABF0 95B2 1FCD 6D34 E57D
