Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Is there and Alternative to compiling kde?
Daevid Vincent schreef: Y'know, it's a bit early in my morning for so much whine, so that's probably why I'm a bit testy He should have been here when I installed Gentoo on a 200Mhz machine. He should have watched me compiling Apache, PHP, MySQL and a lot of other packages on my Pentium 100 with 48MB of RAM Yeah yeah yeah... Great ol' glory days... Guess what... It's not the 80's anymore. CPUs are fast, but the programs are still monolithic and take days to compile. No, in fact they are *not* monolithic any more, that is the entire point of the split ebuilds and modular X. Ya'll that like to waste your time compiling can keep on doing that, while the rest of us would like to get some work done. Those of us that like to waste our time compiling actually do it in such a way that we *can* get some work done while the compile is progressing... maybe I'm missing your point, or maybe your work requires the big builds in some way (meaning X mostly, since KDE is by no means a requirement to get something done). The thing that's frustrating me right now, is that I just installed KDE 3.5 the other day, then upgraded to the new GCC. After a revdep, it apparently has broken all my libc something or other and so I'm once again re-compiling KDE to fix that! ...joy, only 176 packages to go... :-\ Are you logged in all this time? If so, what's the problem? And for you all that want to say -- switch Distros, your logic is flawed. Just because I don't want to waste 3 days or more compiling KDE on a 2Ghz/640MB notebook, doesn't mean I don't want the other benefits of Gentoo, Fine, you want the benefits without the price-- now for myself, I consider the ability to customize my KDE install (in my case to the absolute minimum necessary) to be a benefit, but apparently you don't. So check out http://desktop.vidalinux.com/ , supposedly they have a club (that you must pay to be a member of) that provides binary packages. Maybe you'll find that price more acceptable for your needs. Unfortunately the site is down due to mobo failure atm, but hth anyway. Holly -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Is there and Alternative to compiling kde?
On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 19:07:45 -0800, Daevid Vincent wrote: CPUs are fast, but the programs are still monolithic and take days to compile. Why do you think the larger packages are moving to a modular structure? This thread is about KDE, and while the monolithic packages are sytill available, the split ebuilds are the preferred choice. I fully agree (and have brought this up before months and years ago) -- I believe we should have binaries available for the big packages like KDE, OO, Gnome, etc. They are. OOo has always been available as a binary (only as a binary on some platforms) and other packages are on the GRP discs, where the dependencies issue Richard mentioned doesn't apply, since they are tied to a particular Stage 3 install. The compile times are only really an issue for initial installation, where Stage 3 + GRP brings the total time down to around an hour. Once your desktop is running, you can continue to use it while compiling updates. Ya'll that like to waste your time compiling can keep on doing that, while the rest of us would like to get some work done. There's this thing called multitasking, where you computer lets you use it while processing other tasks in the background. It is ideally suited to this. And for you all that want to say -- switch Distros, your logic is flawed. Just because I don't want to waste 3 days or more compiling KDE on a 2Ghz/640MB notebook, I'd take your notebook back to the shop. My 1GHz G4 iBook with similar RAM updated KDE to 3.5 in around 12 hours, most of which was overnight. doesn't mean I don't want the other benefits of Gentoo, like emerge -u world and the fact that when I do need to install from source (like something that isn't in portage), it usually just compiles fine. RedHat 8 NEVER worked that way for me. Because Red Hat uses binary packages, which raises incompatibilities. It is easy to install non-portage packages from source because everything else is also compiled from source. If you really want current packages compiled on someone else's computer, they are already available and the URI was posted to this thread last week. -- Neil Bothwick In a classified ad: Tired of cleaning yourself? Let me do it. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Is there and Alternative to compiling kde?
And all of these releases have to be carefully coordinated by the developers, since you can't have a binary download of the new X.org until the new KDE and GNOME builds are ready, and you have to update all of the dependency versions for every release, because now release -r2 of KDE-bin requires =xorg-server-bin-6.8.2* || =xorg-server-6.8.2*, while -r3 requires 7.0. My guess is that these binary releases wouldn't happen until a planned 'update cycle', when everything would be updated at once. And now you have the same features/problems as Fedora, Ubuntu, etc. thanks for pointing this out. Very interesting for me to read. Best regards ce -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
RE: [gentoo-user] Re: Is there and Alternative to compiling kde?
He should have been here when I installed Gentoo on a 200Mhz machine. He should have watched me compiling Apache, PHP, MySQL and a lot of other packages on my Pentium 100 with 48MB of RAM, what other distro could turn that machine on a useful server other than Gentoo. Keep the Yeah yeah yeah... Great ol' glory days... Guess what... It's not the 80's anymore. CPUs are fast, but the programs are still monolithic and take days to compile. I fully agree (and have brought this up before months and years ago) -- I believe we should have binaries available for the big packages like KDE, OO, Gnome, etc. Ya'll that like to waste your time compiling can keep on doing that, while the rest of us would like to get some work done. The thing that's frustrating me right now, is that I just installed KDE 3.5 the other day, then upgraded to the new GCC. After a revdep, it apparently has broken all my libc something or other and so I'm once again re-compiling KDE to fix that! ...joy, only 176 packages to go... :-\ And for you all that want to say -- switch Distros, your logic is flawed. Just because I don't want to waste 3 days or more compiling KDE on a 2Ghz/640MB notebook, doesn't mean I don't want the other benefits of Gentoo, like emerge -u world and the fact that when I do need to install from source (like something that isn't in portage), it usually just compiles fine. RedHat 8 NEVER worked that way for me. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Is there and Alternative to compiling kde?
I forget where, but I did see some site at some time that had most of portage compiled in x86 binaries...On 12/13/05, Daevid Vincent [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: He should have been here when I installed Gentoo on a 200Mhz machine. He should have watched me compiling Apache, PHP, MySQL and a lot of other packages on my Pentium 100 with 48MB of RAM, what other distro could turn that machine on a useful server other than Gentoo. Keep the Yeah yeah yeah... Great ol' glory days... Guess what... It's not the 80'sanymore.CPUs are fast, but the programs are still monolithic and take days tocompile.I fully agree (and have brought this up before months and years ago) -- I believe we should have binaries available for the big packages like KDE, OO,Gnome, etc. Ya'll that like to waste your time compiling can keep on doingthat, while the rest of us would like to get some work done. The thing that's frustrating me right now, is that I just installed KDE 3.5the other day, then upgraded to the new GCC. After a revdep, it apparentlyhas broken all my libc something or other and so I'm once again re-compiling KDE to fix that! ...joy, only 176 packages to go... :-\And for you all that want to say -- switch Distros, your logic is flawed.Just because I don't want to waste 3 days or more compiling KDE on a 2Ghz/640MB notebook, doesn't mean I don't want the other benefits of Gentoo,like emerge -u world and the fact that when I do need to install fromsource (like something that isn't in portage), it usually just compiles fine. RedHat 8 NEVER worked that way for me.--gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list-- Steven Susbauer
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Is there and Alternative to compiling kde?
On 12/13/05, Daevid Vincent [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I fully agree (and have brought this up before months and years ago) -- I believe we should have binaries available for the big packages like KDE, OO, Gnome, etc. Ya'll that like to waste your time compiling can keep on doing that, while the rest of us would like to get some work done. In practice, I think the only way this could be accomplished is if Gentoo had actual releases, due to the dependancies. For example, take KDE and X. KDE 3.5 is stabilized this week, so you download binaries of that. Now two weeks later modular X.org 7.0 is stabilized. So now you have to download all new binaries of KDE3.5 built against the new version of X.org, plus OOo, Gnome, or whatever other X packages you have installed. Then a week later a new gcc is released, and you have to go through this again, because they all depend on libstdc++. And all of these releases have to be carefully coordinated by the developers, since you can't have a binary download of the new X.org until the new KDE and GNOME builds are ready, and you have to update all of the dependency versions for every release, because now release -r2 of KDE-bin requires =xorg-server-bin-6.8.2* || =xorg-server-6.8.2*, while -r3 requires 7.0. My guess is that these binary releases wouldn't happen until a planned 'update cycle', when everything would be updated at once. And now you have the same features/problems as Fedora, Ubuntu, etc. Note that the current binary releases of OOo cheat...they install private versions of most dependancies. So the -bin comes with it's own version of python, java, libstdc++, etc. Aside from the complete waste of disk space (which is still very limited and expensive on a laptop, as you know), trying to keep up with security advisories with this approach does not sound like any fun to me. What happens if a new security bug is found is libjpeg, for example, and there are 15 different packages with private versions of libjpeg? -Richard -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Is there and Alternative to compiling kde?
On Saturday 10 December 2005 10:47, Harry Putnam wrote: First off, this is an install from scratch. While your comment sounds smart, this really only puts off doing it later. ^^ huh? And the mindnumbing confusion of what parts of kde do what. I'm not compiling kde-meta either, but I've got bit more than once with missing stuff I later needed. When did I say meta... I just don't find it all that embracing flopping around in the many many ways one can screw up with USE var, KEYWORDS and the dozens of combinations of there use.. I'm not sure quite how you're messing with your USE flags... Especially when I want and need to be doing something else. sleep? I appreciate that gentoo is a source distro and even some of the advantages of that, but I agree with the few other posters here that say kde is a first rate candidate for a binary distribution. Good luck if you don't want arts or gstreamer too.. I heard that's included, which pulls in gtk libs and goodies, and then at the end of the day your binary distro has pulled in more -devel/other depend packages because it can't realistically decide what the user needs on their system. I've heard the Oh it takes time argument before, but personally I'd rather take the time and have the features I want, then find out Oh this deb/rpm/whatever doesn't have feature [a] and spend loads more time trying to find a package that days, or compile my own (which brings us back to point A...). Chris White pgpNgv7ke3DA3.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Is there and Alternative to compiling kde?
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 20:24:01 -0600, Harry Putnam wrote: It's no big deal upgrading KDE anyway. Set PORTAGE_NICENESS to a suitable value and you can keep using the computer while the new KDE is compiled in the background. KDE is slotted, so installing 3.5 has no effect on the 3.4.x version you are currently using. Good tips, thanks... but in this case I'm running a full install from scratch and would like to be emerging some of the other needed stuff. That task would be somewhat lessened too just by having X available. Then download a GRP CD, do a stage 3 install then install, X, KDE etc. from the GRP CD. That's how I did it and had a full working system in just over and hour. I was able to set my USE flags, sysnc portage and re-emerge everything that needed it later on. Do you know off-hand if I would be digging myself into a hole by running and emerge emacs-cvs while this pentium4 is gnawing away at kde? Generally, as long as the packages have nothing to do with one another, it is safe to install concurrently. To be really safe, you could use Ctrl-z to pause one emerge while installing another package, then type fg to restart. I'd go for the GRP packages though, and upgrade later in the background. -- Neil Bothwick Run with scissors. Remove mattress tags. Top post. Be a rebel. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
[gentoo-user] Re: Is there and Alternative to compiling kde?
Chris White [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Saturday 10 December 2005 10:47, Harry Putnam wrote: First off, this is an install from scratch. While your comment sounds smart, this really only puts off doing it later. ^^ huh? And the mindnumbing confusion of what parts of kde do what. I'm not compiling kde-meta either, but I've got bit more than once with missing stuff I later needed. When did I say meta... I was differentiating what you did say `kdebase' with the full blown kde-meta and noting I was somewhere in the middle with an emerge -v kde. I just don't find it all that embracing flopping around in the many many ways one can screw up with USE var, KEYWORDS and the dozens of combinations of there use.. I'm not sure quite how you're messing with your USE flags... Every concievable foolish thing I'm sure...: ). I wasn't really arguing with you in my response. Only saying that for us unlearned folks, the system of USE variables (how they are compiled) and the use of KEYWORD masking, provide a somemwhat bewildering array of ways to do things and therefor ways to get it wrong too. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-user] Re: Is there and Alternative to compiling kde?
Neil Bothwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Then download a GRP CD, do a stage 3 install then install, X, KDE etc. from the GRP CD. That's how I did it and had a full working system in just over and hour. I was able to set my USE flags, sysnc portage and re-emerge everything that needed it later on. Now this does sound really smart. I wish I'd have thought of that. But now its a bit late I guess since `emerge -v kde' errored out after hours of grinding along, in what is to me a baffling way. I'm posting this new error in a moment under thread: Subject: kde compile ends in unusual error - fs problem? -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Is there and Alternative to compiling kde?
On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 07:49:30 -0600, Harry Putnam wrote: When did I say meta... I was differentiating what you did say `kdebase' with the full blown kde-meta and noting I was somewhere in the middle with an emerge -v kde. kde-base/kde is a meta package, it pulls in all the monolithic KDE builds. If you are concerned about installation compile times, you should not be trying to build the whole of KDE. Do you really need all of kdegames, kdeedu and kdetoys to get your system running? Stick with kde-base/kdebase or kde-base/kdebase-meta, you can cancel your current emerge and merge one of these instead, then add the rest of what you want once the system is running. -- Neil Bothwick Joystick: (n.) a device essential for performing business tasks and training exercises esp. favored by pilots, tank commanders, riverboat gamblers, and medieval warlords. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
[gentoo-user] Re: Is there and Alternative to compiling kde?
Neil Bothwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: kde-base/kde is a meta package, it pulls in all the monolithic KDE builds. If you are concerned about installation compile times, you should not be trying to build the whole of KDE. Do you really need all of kdegames, kdeedu and kdetoys to get your system running? Stick with kde-base/kdebase or kde-base/kdebase-meta, you can cancel your current emerge and merge one of these instead, then add the rest of what you want once the system is running. I'm confused here. (even more..) Before starting the compile: I ran a comparision of `emerge -v -p kde' and emerge -v -p kde-meta The last showed a much larger pile of dependancies than the former. So I ran the former. I've now canceled as suggested and running `emerge kde-base/kdebase' It only showed the main kde-3.4X as dependancy. But with all the screwups I've managed to get these kde packages installed: (And don't need several of them) kde-base/kdegraphics-3.4.1-r1 * kde-base/kdelibs-3.4.1-r1 * kde-base/kdebase-pam-6 * kde-base/kde-env-3-r4 * kde-base/arts-3.4.1-r2 * kde-base/kdebase-3.4.1-r1 * kde-base/kdeartwork-3.4.1 * kde-base/kdepim-3.4.1-r2 * kde-base/kdegames-3.4.1 * kde-base/kdeutils-3.4.1 * kde-base/kdenetwork-3.4.1-r1 * kde-base/kdeedu-3.4.1-r1 * -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Is there and Alternative to compiling kde?
Did you check out the Gentoo docs on kde split ebuilds? It has a lot of good info. I started to emerge with the kde and then decided to go with the meta so per the instructions I had to remove some stuff - it shows up as blocked. On Saturday 10 December 2005 11:31, Harry Putnam wrote: Neil Bothwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: kde-base/kde is a meta package, it pulls in all the monolithic KDE builds. If you are concerned about installation compile times, you should not be trying to build the whole of KDE. Do you really need all of kdegames, kdeedu and kdetoys to get your system running? Stick with kde-base/kdebase or kde-base/kdebase-meta, you can cancel your current emerge and merge one of these instead, then add the rest of what you want once the system is running. I'm confused here. (even more..) Before starting the compile: I ran a comparision of `emerge -v -p kde' and emerge -v -p kde-meta The last showed a much larger pile of dependancies than the former. So I ran the former. I've now canceled as suggested and running `emerge kde-base/kdebase' It only showed the main kde-3.4X as dependancy. But with all the screwups I've managed to get these kde packages installed: (And don't need several of them) kde-base/kdegraphics-3.4.1-r1 * kde-base/kdelibs-3.4.1-r1 * kde-base/kdebase-pam-6 * kde-base/kde-env-3-r4 * kde-base/arts-3.4.1-r2 * kde-base/kdebase-3.4.1-r1 * kde-base/kdeartwork-3.4.1 * kde-base/kdepim-3.4.1-r2 * kde-base/kdegames-3.4.1 * kde-base/kdeutils-3.4.1 * kde-base/kdenetwork-3.4.1-r1 * kde-base/kdeedu-3.4.1-r1 * -- Brett I. Holcomb -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Is there and Alternative to compiling kde?
On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 10:31:26 -0600, Harry Putnam wrote: I'm confused here. (even more..) Before starting the compile: I ran a comparision of `emerge -v -p kde' and emerge -v -p kde-meta The last showed a much larger pile of dependancies than the former. A longer list, but not larger. kde is the meta package for the monolithic ebuilds, kde-meta is the meta package for the split ebuilds. Both of them install all of KDE. -- Neil Bothwick Don't be humble, you're not that great. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
[gentoo-user] Re: Is there and Alternative to compiling kde?
Gerhard Hoogterp [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: While this is true and one of the things that makes gentoo gentoo, there are already binary packages in portage. mozilla-bin, openoffice-bin. Mostly big packages which take some time to compile. So the idea of having a pre-compiled KDE isn't that alien to the world of gentoo.. Here here... glad to hear a few folks come down sensible on this. It doesn't make me a bad person if I want a binary hehe. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-user] Re: Is there and Alternative to compiling kde?
Chris White [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: will, have patience my son :P. I usually prefer `grasshopper' and you will need a heavy fake oriental accent : ) -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-user] Re: Is there and Alternative to compiling kde?
On 12/9/05, Dale [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris White wrote: On Saturday 10 December 2005 06:55, Harry Putnam wrote: I'll probably need the asbestos drawers here shortly: I've burned up several hours here with a grindingly slow compile of kde. It is an older machine ( a few years) but is a P4 2Ghz and 500MB ram. Is there an alternative to this? I mean aside from using a lighter, faster compiling, X setup. sure, why are you emerge-ing the full kde? 1) `emerge kdebase` 2) ??? 3) Profit! I'm on a 1.6ghz, and being a dev I compile more packages than most users ever will, have patience my son :P. Chris White He should have been here when I installed Gentoo on a 200Mhz machine. He should have watched me compiling Apache, PHP, MySQL and a lot of other packages on my Pentium 100 with 48MB of RAM, what other distro could turn that machine on a useful server other than Gentoo. Keep the compile times, I kinda like them because I can always tell my neighboor all that text going down must be watched so I can't go and fix his computer. Dale :-) -- To err is human, I'm most certainly human. I have four rigs: 1: Home built; Abit NF7 ver 2.0 w/ AMD 2500+ CPU, 1GB of ram and right now two 80GB hard drives. 2: Home built; Iwill KK266-R w/ AMD 1GHz CPU, 256MBs of ram and a 4GB drive. 3: Home built; Gigabyte GA-71XE4 w/ 800MHz CPU, 128MBs of ram and a 2.5GB drive. 4: Compaq Proliant 6000 Server w/ Quad 200MHz CPUs, 128MBs of ram and a 4.3GB SCSI drive. All run Gentoo, all run folding. #1 is my desktop, 2, 3, and 4 are set up as servers. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- Daniel da Veiga Computer Operator - RS - Brazil -BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK- Version: 3.1 GCM/IT/P/O d-? s:- a? C++$ UBLA++ P+ L++ E--- W+++$ N o+ K- w O M- V- PS PE Y PGP- t+ 5 X+++ R+* tv b+ DI+++ D+ G+ e h+ r+ y++ --END GEEK CODE BLOCK-- -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-user] Re: Is there and Alternative to compiling kde?
Chris White [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: sure, why are you emerge-ing the full kde? 1) `emerge kdebase` 2) ??? 3) Profit! First off, this is an install from scratch. While your comment sounds smart, this really only puts off doing it later. And the mindnumbing confusion of what parts of kde do what. I'm not compiling kde-meta either, but I've got bit more than once with missing stuff I later needed. I just don't find it all that embracing flopping around in the many many ways one can screw up with USE var, KEYWORDS and the dozens of combinations of there use.. Especially when I want and need to be doing something else. I appreciate that gentoo is a source distro and even some of the advantages of that, but I agree with the few other posters here that say kde is a first rate candidate for a binary distribution. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-user] Re: Is there and Alternative to compiling kde?
Daniel da Veiga [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: He should have watched me compiling Apache, PHP, MySQL and a lot of other packages on my Pentium 100 with 48MB of RAM, what other distro More `TOSS'... hehe He should of watched me compile emacs on a vic 20 Oh wait .. I'm `he' and now that I think about it, I never did get the full X version of emacs to run on that vic 20... hehe, `The Old Sage Syndrome' -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-user] Re: Is there and Alternative to compiling kde?
Neil Bothwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Those binary packages are supplied by upstream, it's not the same as the Gentoo devs providing compiled packages, although they do in the GRP collections. It's no big deal upgrading KDE anyway. Set PORTAGE_NICENESS to a suitable value and you can keep using the computer while the new KDE is compiled in the background. KDE is slotted, so installing 3.5 has no effect on the 3.4.x version you are currently using. Good tips, thanks... but in this case I'm running a full install from scratch and would like to be emerging some of the other needed stuff. That task would be somewhat lessened too just by having X available. I'm no stranger to console and `screen' but still hard to beat what you can do with several desktops, pager and unlimited xterms. I'm no where near knowledgable enough to know what I can emerge while kde is grinding away probably should have waited on it, but then it pulls in some of the other stuff too. Another big nasty package I have to go is emacs-cvs. Nasty in this case because of all the X related stuff if depends on, and of course I'm in console mode for now so there is a bunch of it for dependancies. Do you know off-hand if I would be digging myself into a hole by running and emerge emacs-cvs while this pentium4 is gnawing away at kde? -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
