Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

Alan McKinnon wrote: > Another layer can be good, if properly abstracted. A good example is KDE's > popups when you plug in a hotswap storage device. You get a context-sensitive > popup asking you what you want to do and the choices are sane. You say what > you want to do and don't worry about

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

- Original Message > From: pk > BRM wrote: > > The point of the UI is that you ought not care what goes where, unless you > > are > debugging the UI or the program itself. > > While a UI is important; a good UI is key. > And a plain text editor is, imo, a good UI; everybody knows how t

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

On Wednesday 20 January 2010 21:01:47 pk wrote: > BRM wrote: > > The point of the UI is that you ought not care what goes where, unless > > you are debugging the UI or the program itself. > > > > While a UI is important; a good UI is key. > > And a plain text editor is, imo, a good UI; everybody k

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

BRM wrote: > The point of the UI is that you ought not care what goes where, unless you > are debugging the UI or the program itself. > > While a UI is important; a good UI is key. And a plain text editor is, imo, a good UI; everybody knows how to use it. Why bring in another extra (translation

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

- Original Message > From: Alan McKinnon > On Tuesday 19 January 2010 22:36:45 BRM wrote: > > > Or a pretty GUI with clicky boxes to change the settings while never > > > letting the user see the contents of the XML. > > Once the user interface is in place it doesn't matter whether it is

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

On Tuesday 19 January 2010 22:36:45 BRM wrote: > > Or a pretty GUI with clicky boxes to change the settings while never > > letting the user see the contents of the XML. > > Once the user interface is in place it doesn't matter whether it is XML or > something else. The key is that is has a user

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

- Original Message > From: Neil Bothwick > On Tue, 19 Jan 2010 01:09:16 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: > > > XML is a machine-readable file format that just happens to use ASCII > > > characters, it is not meant to be modified by a text editor, so if > > > your program uses XML configuratio

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

Stroller wrote: > Of course, I use Gentoo on my headless servers, so I am glad that server > software - Dovecot or Courier for IMAP, Apache, Samba - all have > plain-text configuration files I can edit with vim (which I have been > learning to utilise better recently). But even if these switched t

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

Neil Bothwick wrote: On Tue, 19 Jan 2010 04:12:11 -0600, Dale wrote: I usually just do softlevel=single or that other one I got wrote down here somewhere. That turns off almost everything, whereas gentoo=nox does a normal startup of everything but xdm. Single mode has its uses

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

On Tue, 19 Jan 2010 04:09:37 -0600, Dale wrote: > I hope some manufacturers don't shoot themselves in the foot while > removing keys. o_O They'd have to be using a pretty extreme method of key removal for that to be a risk :P -- Neil Bothwick Always proofread carefully to see if you any wor

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

On Tue, 19 Jan 2010 11:55:20 +, Peter Humphrey wrote: > > That turns off almost everything, whereas gentoo=nox does a normal > > startup of everything but xdm. Single mode has its uses but it's a bit > > of a sledgehammer for this particular nut. > > Each of my machines has a no-x run level

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

On Tue, 19 Jan 2010 04:12:11 -0600, Dale wrote: > >> I usually just do softlevel=single or that other one I got wrote > >> down here somewhere. > > That turns off almost everything, whereas gentoo=nox does a normal > > startup of everything but xdm. Single mode has its uses but it's a bit > > of

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

Peter Humphrey wrote: On Tuesday 19 January 2010 09:03:57 Neil Bothwick wrote: On Mon, 18 Jan 2010 18:21:18 -0600, Dale wrote: I usually just do softlevel=single or that other one I got wrote down here somewhere. That turns off almost everything, whereas gentoo=nox does a normal

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

On Tuesday 19 January 2010 09:03:57 Neil Bothwick wrote: > On Mon, 18 Jan 2010 18:21:18 -0600, Dale wrote: > > I usually just do softlevel=single or that other one I got wrote down > > here somewhere. > > That turns off almost everything, whereas gentoo=nox does a normal > startup of everything bu

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

Iain Buchanan wrote: On Mon, 2010-01-18 at 18:23 -0600, Dale wrote: Iain Buchanan wrote: On Mon, 2010-01-18 at 23:25 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: On Monday 18 January 2010 22:47:05 Dale wrote: In that case, ctrl alt F1 does nothing. You also need to understand

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

Neil Bothwick wrote: On Mon, 18 Jan 2010 18:21:18 -0600, Dale wrote: Even easier, hit e at the GRUB menu and add "gentoo=nox" to the kernel options. I usually just do softlevel=single or that other one I got wrote down here somewhere. That turns off almost everything, whe

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

Stroller wrote: On 18 Jan 2010, at 21:50, James Ausmus wrote: Very recent buyers of Lenovo laptops don't even *have* a SysRq key anymore. I reckon it won't be long before other makers follow suit. I can see Lenovo's point: there's probably less than 10,000 people in the whole world that ever

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

On Mon, 18 Jan 2010 18:21:18 -0600, Dale wrote: > > Even easier, hit e at the GRUB menu and add "gentoo=nox" to the kernel > > options. > I usually just do softlevel=single or that other one I got wrote down > here somewhere. That turns off almost everything, whereas gentoo=nox does a normal st

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

On 18 Jan 2010, at 23:09, Alan McKinnon wrote: ... If we are truly trying to make Linux more accessible, with things like the plug and play hal offers, should we even be contemplating editing config files? XML is a machine-readable file format that just happens to use ASCII characters, it is

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

On 18 Jan 2010, at 17:53, Alan McKinnon wrote: ... XML allows you to generate complex, structured, hierarchical data that can be read, changed, and stored by well-tested third party libraries that don't need to know anything about the contents or meaning of your configuration data beforehan

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

On 18 Jan 2010, at 21:50, James Ausmus wrote: Very recent buyers of Lenovo laptops don't even *have* a SysRq key anymore. I reckon it won't be long before other makers follow suit. I can see Lenovo's point: there's probably less than 10,000 people in the whole world that ever used that key

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

On Mon, 2010-01-18 at 18:23 -0600, Dale wrote: > Iain Buchanan wrote: > > On Mon, 2010-01-18 at 23:25 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: > > > >> On Monday 18 January 2010 22:47:05 Dale wrote: > >> > >>> In that case, ctrl alt F1 does nothing. You also need to understand > >>> that most people d

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 4:30 PM, Dale wrote: > Alan McKinnon wrote: > >> On Tuesday 19 January 2010 00:29:18 Neil Bothwick wrote: >> >> >>> On Mon, 18 Jan 2010 19:53:16 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: >>> >>> Your post makes sense until you realise that the use of XML in a configuration des

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

Alan McKinnon wrote: On Tuesday 19 January 2010 00:29:18 Neil Bothwick wrote: On Mon, 18 Jan 2010 19:53:16 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: Your post makes sense until you realise that the use of XML in a configuration designed to be changed by the user renders the package virtually unusable

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

On Tue, 19 Jan 2010 01:09:16 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: > > XML is a machine-readable file format that just happens to use ASCII > > characters, it is not meant to be modified by a text editor, so if > > your program uses XML configuration files, it should include a means > > of editing those fil

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

Iain Buchanan wrote: On Mon, 2010-01-18 at 23:25 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: On Monday 18 January 2010 22:47:05 Dale wrote: In that case, ctrl alt F1 does nothing. You also need to understand that most people don't even know how to use SysRq keys. I didn't and had to do a hard shutdo

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

Neil Bothwick wrote: On Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:04:56 -0800, James Ausmus wrote: Another option (I know - too late for you, but might be useful for someone that runs across this on Google), is to press I during the initscript processes - enters "Interactive Boot" mode, so you can Y/N individual

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

On Mon, 2010-01-18 at 23:25 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: > On Monday 18 January 2010 22:47:05 Dale wrote: > > In that case, ctrl alt F1 does nothing. You also need to understand > > that most people don't even know how to use SysRq keys. I didn't and > > had to do a hard shutdown. I had to actu

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

On Tuesday 19 January 2010 00:29:18 Neil Bothwick wrote: > On Mon, 18 Jan 2010 19:53:16 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: > > Your post makes sense until you realise that the use of XML in a > > configuration designed to be changed by the user renders the package > > virtually unusable. Given a choice be

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

Alan McKinnon wrote: On Monday 18 January 2010 22:47:05 Dale wrote: In that case, ctrl alt F1 does nothing. You also need to understand that most people don't even know how to use SysRq keys. I didn't and had to do a hard shutdown. I had to actually pull the plug to do any good. Luckily

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

On Mon, 18 Jan 2010 19:53:16 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: > Your post makes sense until you realise that the use of XML in a > configuration designed to be changed by the user renders the package > virtually unusable. Given a choice between me as a developer struggling > with a config parser versus

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

On Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:04:56 -0800, James Ausmus wrote: > Another option (I know - too late for you, but might be useful for > someone that runs across this on Google), is to press I during the > initscript processes - enters "Interactive Boot" mode, so you can Y/N > individual startup scripts, in

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

On Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:50:36 -0800, James Ausmus wrote: > > Very recent buyers of Lenovo laptops don't even *have* a SysRq key > > anymore. I > > reckon it won't be long before other makers follow suit. I can see > > Lenovo's point: there's probably less than 10,000 people in the whole > > world t

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

James Ausmus wrote: I'll try to stop being a smart-ass, but it's just one of those kind of days... -James I have those days too. They tend to come in bunches tho. ;-) Dale :-) :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 1:28 PM, Alan McKinnon wrote: > On Monday 18 January 2010 23:04:56 James Ausmus wrote: > > And this is why it is a Very Good Thing to spread the word about the > Magic > > SysRq keys. Did -- not do anything, or a single press of > > the power button (which should send an

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

On Monday 18 January 2010 23:04:56 James Ausmus wrote: > And this is why it is a Very Good Thing to spread the word about the Magic > SysRq keys. Did -- not do anything, or a single press of > the power button (which should send an ACPI shutdown signal, causing the > system to self-power-off)? >

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

On Monday 18 January 2010 22:47:05 Dale wrote: > In that case, ctrl alt F1 does nothing. You also need to understand > that most people don't even know how to use SysRq keys. I didn't and > had to do a hard shutdown. I had to actually pull the plug to do any > good. Luckily I knew how to get

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 12:47 PM, Dale wrote: > James Ausmus wrote: > > >> >> On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 11:59 AM, Dale > rdalek1...@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> >>That was my problem, no keyboard or mouse. Sort of hard to do >>much in that situation. >>Dale >> >> >> Pshaw... ;) >> >> --,

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

James Ausmus wrote: On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 11:59 AM, Dale > wrote: That was my problem, no keyboard or mouse. Sort of hard to do much in that situation. Dale Pshaw... ;) --, or, if that doesn't work: --R - Of course, method 2 only works if you

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 11:59 AM, Dale wrote: That was my problem, no keyboard or mouse. Sort of hard to do much in that > situation. > Dale > > Pshaw... ;) --, or, if that doesn't work: --R - Of course, method 2 only works if you have the "Magic SysRq keys" (or whatever it's called) option

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

Paul Hartman wrote: On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 12:30 PM, Dale wrote: Alan McKinnon wrote: On Monday 18 January 2010 18:26:21 Mike Edenfield wrote: +1 I do OK with plain text but no clue on the new xml stuff. Why not just keep it simple? Is xml REALLY needed? XML allo

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 12:30 PM, Dale wrote: > Alan McKinnon wrote: >> >> On Monday 18 January 2010 18:26:21 Mike Edenfield wrote: >> +1 I do OK with plain text but no clue on the new xml stuff. Why not just keep it simple? Is xml REALLY needed? >>> >>> XML allows you to gener

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

Mike Edenfield wrote: > XML allows you to generate complex, structured, hierarchical data that > can be read, changed, and stored by well-tested third party libraries > that don't need to know anything about the contents or meaning of your > configuration data beforehand. This means I, as a develo

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

Alan McKinnon wrote: On Monday 18 January 2010 18:26:21 Mike Edenfield wrote: +1 I do OK with plain text but no clue on the new xml stuff. Why not just keep it simple? Is xml REALLY needed? XML allows you to generate complex, structured, hierarchical data that can be read, changed, an

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

On Monday 18 January 2010 18:26:21 Mike Edenfield wrote: > > +1 I do OK with plain text but no clue on the new xml stuff. Why not > > just keep it simple? Is xml REALLY needed? > > XML allows you to generate complex, structured, hierarchical data that > can be read, changed, and stored by well-te

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

On 1/18/2010 5:10 AM, Dale wrote: +1 I do OK with plain text but no clue on the new xml stuff. Why not just keep it simple? Is xml REALLY needed? XML allows you to generate complex, structured, hierarchical data that can be read, changed, and stored by well-tested third party libraries that

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

Paul Hartman wrote: On Sun, Jan 17, 2010 at 2:14 PM, pk wrote: Btw, devicekit has been renamed to udisks. http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Nzc2NA The whole of DeviceKit was not renamed, just the DeviceKit-disks program was renamed to udisks. And yes I think it all u

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

Dale wrote: > Stop lurking and just join me. lol ... "Darth Vader: Luke, join me and I will complete your training..." ;-) Best regards Peter K

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 04:10:59AM -0600, Dale wrote: > +1 I do OK with plain text but no clue on the new xml stuff. Why not > just keep it simple? Is xml REALLY needed? XML is handy for nested configuration, where various options apply to specific subsets of other configuration items. I coul

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

On Sun, Jan 17, 2010 at 2:14 PM, pk wrote: > Btw, devicekit has been renamed to udisks. > http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Nzc2NA The whole of DeviceKit was not renamed, just the DeviceKit-disks program was renamed to udisks. And yes I think it all uses XML config files too, li

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

On Mon, 18 Jan 2010 08:59:07 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: > Most devices fall into one of two groups: storage and I/O. > Auto-mounters do not care about your keyboard, whereas X needs to know > about your monitor, card, keyboard, mouse. Why does hal try and > abstract both? Seems silly to me. On t

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

Alan McKinnon wrote: On Monday 18 January 2010 12:10:59 Dale wrote: Neil Walker wrote: It seems xml is the fashion with certain programmers. Totally unnecessary. :( Be lucky, Neil http://www.neiljw.com +1 I do OK with plain text but no clue on the new xml stuff. Why not jus

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

On Monday 18 January 2010 12:10:59 Dale wrote: > Neil Walker wrote: > > It seems xml is the fashion with certain programmers. Totally > > unnecessary. :( > > > > > > Be lucky, > > > > Neil > > http://www.neiljw.com > > +1 I do OK with plain text but no clue on the new xml stuff. Why not > just k

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

Neil Walker wrote: It seems xml is the fashion with certain programmers. Totally unnecessary. :( Be lucky, Neil http://www.neiljw.com +1 I do OK with plain text but no clue on the new xml stuff. Why not just keep it simple? Is xml REALLY needed? Dale :-) :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

Alan McKinnon wrote: >> The only way to be sure of that is to write your own replacement for HAL. >> ;) >> > > That might not be a bad idea > > I never agreed with the implementation of hal. An abstract layer sounds good, > but why must it abstract ALL hardware? Most software already kno

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

On Sunday 17 January 2010 22:14:06 Neil Walker wrote: > Joerg Schilling wrote: > > how do we > > prevent that DeviceKit will become the same desaster as hald? > > The only way to be sure of that is to write your own replacement for HAL. > ;) That might not be a bad idea I never agreed with

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

pk wrote: Alan McKinnon wrote: entirely removing hal in favour of DeviceKit. Xorg is removing HAL support; as of xorg-server-1.8 HAL is no longer used. http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Nzc2Mw Devicekit will not replace HAL entirely: http://www.x.org/wiki/XorgHAL Bt

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

Stroller wrote: > > It seems that DeviceKit is no help for the various bugs in hald that > > prevent writng CDs/DVDs/BluRays under certain circumstances. > > > > I did write mail to the DeviceKit maintainer to no avail, ... > > You probably didn't bitch him out thoroughly enough, Joerg. I did se

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

On 17 Jan 2010, at 18:42, Joerg Schilling wrote: Alan McKinnon wrote: As our resident hal-hater-in-charge, Dale will no doubt be *very* pleased to hear of what Ubuntu is doing for 10.04: entirely removing hal in favour of DeviceKit. It seems that DeviceKit is no help for the various bugs

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

Joerg Schilling wrote: > how do we > prevent that DeviceKit will become the same desaster as hald? > The only way to be sure of that is to write your own replacement for HAL. ;) Be lucky, Neil http://www.neiljw.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

Alan McKinnon wrote: > entirely removing hal in favour of DeviceKit. Xorg is removing HAL support; as of xorg-server-1.8 HAL is no longer used. http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Nzc2Mw Devicekit will not replace HAL entirely: http://www.x.org/wiki/XorgHAL Btw, devicekit has bee

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

Eray Aslan wrote: > It is usually done right in the third version. First one too small, > second one too big, third one just right :) > > I think it is called "Second System Effect" > No, it's called "Goldilocks and the Three Bears". ;) Be lucky, Neil http://www.neiljw.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

Alan McKinnon wrote: > As our resident hal-hater-in-charge, Dale will no doubt be *very* pleased to > hear of what Ubuntu is doing for 10.04: > > entirely removing hal in favour of DeviceKit. It seems that DeviceKit is no help for the various bugs in hald that prevent writng CDs/DVDs/BluRays un

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

On Sunday 17 January 2010 18:18:36 Eray Aslan wrote: > On Sun, Jan 17, 2010 at 09:39:27AM -0600, Dale wrote: > > From my understanding, isn't the same guy doing devicekit that did > > hal? I'm not saying it won't be better because it should be. From what > > I read a good while back, he learned

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

On Sun, 2010-01-17 at 17:27 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: > As our resident hal-hater-in-charge, Dale will no doubt be *very* pleased to > hear of what Ubuntu is doing for 10.04: > > entirely removing hal in favour of DeviceKit. > > When I say *entirely*, that's what the blog said - entirely. If t

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

On Sun, Jan 17, 2010 at 09:39:27AM -0600, Dale wrote: > From my understanding, isn't the same guy doing devicekit that did > hal? I'm not saying it won't be better because it should be. From what > I read a good while back, he learned a lot about the pitfalls of hal. > He, most likely, will

Re: [gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

Alan McKinnon wrote: As our resident hal-hater-in-charge, Dale will no doubt be *very* pleased to hear of what Ubuntu is doing for 10.04: entirely removing hal in favour of DeviceKit. When I say *entirely*, that's what the blog said - entirely. If this pans out, maybe there's a chance Dale ca

[gentoo-user] Devicekit - especially just for Dale

As our resident hal-hater-in-charge, Dale will no doubt be *very* pleased to hear of what Ubuntu is doing for 10.04: entirely removing hal in favour of DeviceKit. When I say *entirely*, that's what the blog said - entirely. If this pans out, maybe there's a chance Dale can get a working (recent