Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[Alan Grimes]

>Sadly, your acid_demeanor precludes you from such opportunities. So if
you change your mind and want to take a professional approach to
palidromes, you >might just establish some new friendships. Think things
over a bit and let me know should you want to access more aggressive
resources. YES, you can run >gentoo on those HPC resources. Off the
record, have you tried a systolic algorithm and using rDMA via the DDR5
on a collection of GPUs to speed up >your search? James

GPU is appealing, the problem is ammble to a high degree of
partitioning. There is some benefit to working blocks sequentially due
to arithmetic redundancy.

Now the main issue is that keith's approach is to use an immense lookup
table to use a radix approach.

Basically if your start is "abc" then here are 10 or so things you can
add to get "cba" on the tail end, this saves many millions of useless
tests. The bigger the lookup table the faster the algorithm... 
(currently around 25gb)

I am using some AMD specific features, I haven't tried to port it to intel.

-- 
IQ is a measure of how stupid you feel.

Powers are not rights.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[R0b0t1]

On May 31, 2016 9:23 AM, "James"  wrote:
>
> Alan Grimes  verizon.net> writes:
>
> Off the record, have you tried a systolic algorithm and using rDMA via
> the DDR5 on a collection of GPUs  to speed up your search?
>
>
> James

There's an algorithm to build Cantor's set by manipulating the ternary
representation of some numbers. It's related to what you want to do.

Don't descend my endless stair.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[Alan Grimes]

J. Roeleveld wrote:
> On Monday, May 30, 2016 08:57:01 PM Alan Grimes wrote:
>> Gregory Woodbury wrote:
>>> What the...?
>>> Do you have every package there is installed?  The worst updates I
>>> have seen
>>> are only 40-50 packages.  403 being 25% implies around 1600 - 1700
>>> packages.
>>> Actually that seems about right, but why are you getting that many
>>> updates? You
>>> may have maladjusted USE flags or keywords to make portage think that many
>>> need an update.  I'm running with ~amd64 set and I check updates once
>>> a day.
>> Well, I'm running some stupid number theory code that uses 110% of my
>> cpu and ram,
> If it's stupid, why waste CPU and RAM on it?
> Or is it only stupid because you don't understand it? Just like, in your 
> opinion, Linux is stupid because you don't understand it?

Looking for numbers that are palindromes in both binary and ternary. It
is an exceptionally sparse set.

0

1

6643
110010011
100010001
size: 13 popcnt: 9

1422773
101011011010110110101
2200021200022
size: 21 popcnt: 13

5415589
10100101010001010100101
101012010210101
size: 23 popcnt: 10

90396755477
101011101000101110101
221220010022122
size: 37 popcnt: 12

381920985378904469
10101001100110110110001110011011001110001101101100110010101
2112200222001222121212221002220022112
size: 59 popcnt: 32

1922624336133018996235  

  

110101110011100010111000111001101100111000111010001110011101011 

  

122120102102011212112010211212110201201021221   

  

size: 71 popcnt:
36  

 

   
>>> number discovered by me and a my fast cpu and a marginally stupid
algorithm.  
   

2004595370006815987563563   

  

1101011010101010100100011100010010101010101101011

 

221010112100202002120002212200021200202001211010122 

  

size: 81 popcnt:
49  

 


>>> number discovered by evil roomate using slow cpu and good algorithm
8022581057533823761829436662099 

  

110010101100101101110110110011111110011011011101101001101010011

   

21202100112221021201110212012221100120212   

  

size: 103 popcnt:
55  




   

>>> this discovered by me on my cpu using keith's algorithm implemented
by me. 
 
39262962158667733213907054116073

  

100101110000010001010001010011011011000101011011101110110101000110110110010100010100010000011101001
   

122102120011102000101101020100212001020101101000201110021201221 

  

size: 119 popcnt:
54  

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[Neil Bothwick]

On Mon, 30 May 2016 20:32:47 -0400, Alan Grimes wrote:

> The key difference is that I get to decide how I want my computer to
> run. =|

And your decisions are making it run the way it does, so what are you
complaining about?

If you want to to run better, you only have to decide that's how you want
it to run.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Irritable? Who the bloody hell are you calling irritable?


pgpbgDqJy1bym.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[Neil Bothwick]

On Mon, 30 May 2016 20:48:46 -0400, Alan Grimes wrote:

> Neil Bothwick wrote:
> > Have you read the emerge and portage man pages anytime in the last
> > five years?  
> 
> I tried to extract useful information from the emerge manpage a few days
> ago but it contained no useful information, manpages are written in
> moonspeak anyway.

Man pages are reference documents for those that already have a basic
understanding of the software. They document the various command options.
They are not tutorials, the handbook does a good enough job of that.

> I thought portage was just the file database,

You though wrong, that's the portage tree. Portage is the package
manager, it's the software installed by sys-apps/portage

> I tried to find an on-line wiki about
> emerge because that's how shit is documented in the 21st century but
> couldn't.

Man pages are written by the developers of the software, and the versions
installed match the software version - they should be considered
authoritative. The same cannot be said of a random wiki page that any
idiot can write or edit.

> I wish I could remember where I got the documentation I needed
> to configure the features list I'm using, it's been ages since I've
> messed with it...

You've already been told the answer to that...


-- 
Neil Bothwick

"Most problems go away if you just wait long enough. It might look like
I'm standing motionless but I'm actively waiting for our problems to go
away. I don't know why this works but it does."
Scott Adams, Dilbert comic


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Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[Alan McKinnon]

On 31/05/2016 02:32, Alan Grimes wrote:
> Dale wrote:
>> Do you really want a answer to that?  Seriously?  You asked so I guess
>> you do.  Here it is.  Yes!  lol  The way you do things, and continue to
>> do things, even after having several VERY experienced users tell you
>> that the way you are doing things is wrong pretty much says it all.  If
>> I post that I was doing something and getting a bad result and someone
>> such as Neil and/or Alan McKinnon tells me I am doing it wrong, you can
>> bet your last dollar that I am about to change how I do things.  Why, if
>> either or both of them tell me I am doing something wrong, I'm doing it
>> wrong.  If I continue to do things the same way, well, that would be my
>> fault not members of this list or emerge/portage.  So far, I don't
>> recall seeing a single post that supports how your script is set up. 
>> Not one, except you of course. 
> 
> This is linux, not Windows 10.
> 
> The key difference is that I get to decide how I want my computer to
> run. =|
> 
> What I am saying is that recent changes have broken a usage pattern that I 
> was quite content with for more than a decade. =\


So update your usage pattern. The world moved on.

> 
>> Here's a idea.  Since YOU are the only one having this problem, why
>> don't YOU change what you are doing to something that actually works? 
>> What you are doing doesn't work.  Try something else.  Funny how those
>> "stupid" checks work for everyone else. 
> 
> I'm at 193/250 right now so therefore all discussion of changing my
> procedures is tabled until the next time I have troubles (next month...)
> 
>
> I mentioned this before.  If you keep posting but then refuse to accept
> help, people will start ignoring or blocking your messages.  Based on
> the posts that I see, I suspect some may have already.  At some point,
> even I will.  I've only ever blocked one other person on this list.  I
> can see that doubling at some point because you don't come here for help
> or accept any when it is given.  You just come here to gripe about
> things not working like you want when it is your method that is broken. 
> 
> 
> 
> May I remind you that most modern software has a "check for updates" button 
> that is fully automated... 

Yes, and ...? how is this relevant

> 
> May I also point out that the stated gentoo update process, of "emerge sync ; 
> emerge --update world rarely actually works or does not have the intended 
> effect without a several dozen qualifiers. I point out here that the 
> qualifiers I use were selected from the ones provided by portage. 

Not true. My emerges usually do work. You are going to have to defend
your statement now of how emerge world rarely works.

You can't just claim it, you have to prove it. With numbers. And records

> Now, the question is what qualifiers to use... Regardless of what qualifiers 
> you use you will have errors. So therefore you are forced to do something to 
> recover from those errors. I have found that it never hurts to blindly skip 
> the current package and try the next, so that's exactly what I do. 

Now you are just ranting with more unsubstantiated claims of stuff
> 
> When I saw that my updates always had the same sequence of commands, I wrote 
> the first versions of my scripts.  Since then, I have edited, and enhanced my 
> scripts to either take advantage of good new features such as the built-in 
> keep-going command, or to disable features that features, that even once, 
> caused me problems, then I do so. If disabling a feature, even once, solves a 
> problem I will never attempt to use that feature again. 

Sounds like you once hit on a happy coincidence and now try rely on it.
The world moved on. The process is way more complicated
> 
> So I come here looking for something else to disable because, obviously, the 
> problem is that it is checking something that it would be better off not 
> checking because the problem it seems to think will happen either won't 
> happen or will be so trivial that it won't have any lasting effects on the 
> system. The costs in frustration for the check and trying to satisfy the 
> check being many orders of magnitude greater than whatever emerge was doing 
> before the incident involving water skis, a ramp, and the proverbial SHARK. 

No, you come here to rant, insult portage, whinge and complain.
Your behaviour shows that.

Dude, you seriously need to get this one now:

Things in portage do not work the way you think they work.
Portage is a tool. If you are going to use it you must use it in the way
it was designed to be used. Otherwise you get mistakes, much like trying
to remove a sump cover with an axe
> 
> Instead I'm told that I'm an idiot and should switch to some unspicified but 
> vastly more laborious process involving manually second-guessing the build 
> order or some such nonsense... =\

If you persist in insulting people who try to assist you, then yes you
are going to be told you are an 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[J. Roeleveld]

On Monday, May 30, 2016 08:57:01 PM Alan Grimes wrote:
> Gregory Woodbury wrote:
> > What the...?
> > Do you have every package there is installed?  The worst updates I
> > have seen
> > are only 40-50 packages.  403 being 25% implies around 1600 - 1700
> > packages.
> > Actually that seems about right, but why are you getting that many
> > updates? You
> > may have maladjusted USE flags or keywords to make portage think that many
> > need an update.  I'm running with ~amd64 set and I check updates once
> > a day.
> 
> Well, I'm running some stupid number theory code that uses 110% of my
> cpu and ram,

If it's stupid, why waste CPU and RAM on it?
Or is it only stupid because you don't understand it? Just like, in your 
opinion, Linux is stupid because you don't understand it?

> and my web browsers are CPU hogs, so it's been 6wks/month
> since last update.

Where do you live that you have 6 weeks in a month?

> So right now I'm using the -30% of my cpu remaining
> to run e-builds. =P   (205/250 atm...)

Guess I was right, number theory is too difficult. Percentages especially...

--
Joost

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[J. Roeleveld]

On Monday, May 30, 2016 08:48:46 PM Alan Grimes wrote:
> Neil Bothwick wrote:
> > Have you read the emerge and portage man pages anytime in the last five
> > years?
> 
> I tried to extract useful information from the emerge manpage a few days
> ago but it contained no useful information, manpages are written in
> moonspeak anyway.

Then I must be fluent in moonspeak without ever hearing about that language.
I find the emerge manpage one of the better manpages around.

> I thought portage was just the file database, it
> seems to be working perfectly so therefore I have no motive to try to
> get any more information about it. I tried to find an on-line wiki about
> emerge because that's how shit is documented in the 21st century but
> couldn't. I wish I could remember where I got the documentation I needed
> to configure the features list I'm using, it's been ages since I've
> messed with it...

Occasionally there is a problem with a new feature. That gets fixed and 
everyone is happily using it. By disabling features you haven't got an 
understanding off and don't even bother to check if it's fixed, you are 
literally shooting yourself in the foot.

Why not pick either of the 2 advices people have given you here and grow up.
To make it easier, here are the 2 options:
1) Start using MS Windows as it's designed for people like you who refuse to 
learn new things
2) Actually learn how to use a computer

--
Joost

> 
> 
> ##
> EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS="--jobs=1 --quiet-build=n --verbose"
> 
> FEATURES="sandbox distlocks nostrip parallel-fetch userfetch userpriv
> usersandbox splitdebug
> -preserve-libs"
> 
> ##

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[Dale]

Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> Am 29.05.2016 um 22:15 schrieb Alan McKinnon:
>> On 29/05/2016 19:54, Dale wrote:
>>> Alan McKinnon wrote:
 On 29/05/2016 11:28, Dale wrote:
 Well, he did reply. Either his script is still doing it or he did
 and he hasn't learned anything yet. It's funny how he is the only
 one that has these problems and how he keeps using that disaster of
 a script. I don't think anyone has posted a positive thing about
 that script. I'm no script guru by any means but even I can read
 that thing and see what a disaster it is. Best of luck to him. I'm
 about done trying to help. Key word, trying. Dale :-) :-) 
>> I agree Dale.
>>
>> Mr Grimes should probably move over to Linux From Scratch. It has none
>> of portage's absurdities, makes no effort at all to be helpful to the
>> user and allows anyone to write any build automation they feel is
>> appropriate. LFS also requires you to watch all the compiler output all
>> the time to catch problems; it all seems to match Mr Grimes'
>> requirements right down to a tee.
>>
>>
>> I'm going to STFU down, go to bed and finish an astonishingly intriguing
>> Stephen King book and let the computer get on with doing whatever it
>> thinks perl-cleaner fixes.
>>
> personally, I hope he stays around. His mails and the resulting threads
> amuse me.
>
>

On one hand, it is somewhat funny to read.  On the other, it is really
silly.  Jeez, I've had things go sideways before, hal comes to mind, but
I don't use a script like he does and bring it on myself.  Heck, I can
remember when the update process was emerge sync and emerge -uvp world. 
Look at list, then remove the -p part.  Then pray there was no build
failure from a bug.  Then portage, both the emerge command and the tree
and all its ebuilds, started improving.  Slots came along and a whole
ton of other things.  Nowadays, eix-sync && emerge -uvaDN world and
generally, it's ready to update.  Once that is done, a little
housekeeping and it's done.  Of all the problems I have, it is usually
something I overlook that I did or just a general build failure. 
Sometimes a retry gets it going again. 

Thing is, emerge has changed over the years.  All of us have adapted to
those changes and adapted our own systems and process to what works. 
Some systems may be fine with a backtrack that is the default.  Some may
need it set to 30, some 100.  Thing is, setting it to 0 to disable it or
something, that won't likely work to well.  Grimes seems to want to
disable some of the new features thinking it will make it easier but
it's making it harder.  Portage/emerge will do the heavy lifting if you
let it. 

Anyway, I'll give it another go or two and after that, he will have to
figure it out on his own.  I like helping when I can but sometimes, you
just have to let them get hungry enough to fish for themselves.  lol 

Dale

:)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[Dale]

Alan Grimes wrote:
> Dale wrote:
>> Do you really want a answer to that?  Seriously?  You asked so I guess
>> you do.  Here it is.  Yes!  lol  The way you do things, and continue to
>> do things, even after having several VERY experienced users tell you
>> that the way you are doing things is wrong pretty much says it all.  If
>> I post that I was doing something and getting a bad result and someone
>> such as Neil and/or Alan McKinnon tells me I am doing it wrong, you can
>> bet your last dollar that I am about to change how I do things.  Why, if
>> either or both of them tell me I am doing something wrong, I'm doing it
>> wrong.  If I continue to do things the same way, well, that would be my
>> fault not members of this list or emerge/portage.  So far, I don't
>> recall seeing a single post that supports how your script is set up. 
>> Not one, except you of course. 
> This is linux, not Windows 10.
>
> The key difference is that I get to decide how I want my computer to
> run. =|
>
> What I am saying is that recent changes have broken a usage pattern that I 
> was quite content with for more than a decade. =\
>

I have no use for windoze.  I don't use it, never have and don't have
any plans to use it either.  Sounds like windoze may be more to your
liking tho.  It updates itself without you having to do anything.  I do
have friends that use windoze so I have a idea on how it works. 

Recent changes in emerge/portage did not break anything otherwise there
would be dozens of other people on this list having the same type of
problems you are having.  So, it's not emerge/portage.  The problem, as
has been said many times before, is your script and your update
process.  That is your problem.   I might also say, yes, you decide how
to run your computer.  That also means that when you use something such
as the script you posted a while back, you can also keep the pieces as
well.  Even a developer will tell you that. 


>> Here's a idea.  Since YOU are the only one having this problem, why
>> don't YOU change what you are doing to something that actually works? 
>> What you are doing doesn't work.  Try something else.  Funny how those
>> "stupid" checks work for everyone else. 
> I'm at 193/250 right now so therefore all discussion of changing my
> procedures is tabled until the next time I have troubles (next month...)


So, what you are saying is that the next time you run your script and
thoroughly break things again, you will come back, start a new thread
griping and moaning about the problem you brought on yourself?   How
lovely.  Just so you know, a couple people posted that they blacklisted
you.  They won't see your emails any more.  I'm getting close to it
myself.   I keep hoping it will get through to you that you need to
change what YOU are doing instead of doing what you want which breaks
things. At some point, there won't be anyone left here reading your
messages even if you decide to change how you do things.  Basically, it
could get worse. 

> I mentioned this before.  If you keep posting but then refuse to accept
> help, people will start ignoring or blocking your messages.  Based on
> the posts that I see, I suspect some may have already.  At some point,
> even I will.  I've only ever blocked one other person on this list.  I
> can see that doubling at some point because you don't come here for help
> or accept any when it is given.  You just come here to gripe about
> things not working like you want when it is your method that is broken. 
> 
>
>
> May I remind you that most modern software has a "check for updates" button 
> that is fully automated... 
>
> May I also point out that the stated gentoo update process, of "emerge sync ; 
> emerge --update world rarely actually works or does not have the intended 
> effect without a several dozen qualifiers. I point out here that the 
> qualifiers I use were selected from the ones provided by portage. 
>
> Now, the question is what qualifiers to use... Regardless of what qualifiers 
> you use you will have errors. So therefore you are forced to do something to 
> recover from those errors. I have found that it never hurts to blindly skip 
> the current package and try the next, so that's exactly what I do. 
>
> When I saw that my updates always had the same sequence of commands, I wrote 
> the first versions of my scripts.  Since then, I have edited, and enhanced my 
> scripts to either take advantage of good new features such as the built-in 
> keep-going command, or to disable features that features, that even once, 
> caused me problems, then I do so. If disabling a feature, even once, solves a 
> problem I will never attempt to use that feature again. 
>
> So I come here looking for something else to disable because, obviously, the 
> problem is that it is checking something that it would be better off not 
> checking because the problem it seems to think will happen either won't 
> happen or will be so trivial that it won't have any 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am 31.05.2016 um 02:32 schrieb Alan Grimes:
> Dale wrote:
>> Do you really want a answer to that?  Seriously?  You asked so I guess
>> you do.  Here it is.  Yes!  lol  The way you do things, and continue to
>> do things, even after having several VERY experienced users tell you
>> that the way you are doing things is wrong pretty much says it all.  If
>> I post that I was doing something and getting a bad result and someone
>> such as Neil and/or Alan McKinnon tells me I am doing it wrong, you can
>> bet your last dollar that I am about to change how I do things.  Why, if
>> either or both of them tell me I am doing something wrong, I'm doing it
>> wrong.  If I continue to do things the same way, well, that would be my
>> fault not members of this list or emerge/portage.  So far, I don't
>> recall seeing a single post that supports how your script is set up. 
>> Not one, except you of course. 
> This is linux, not Windows 10.

doing stupid things is stupid. No matter which system you are using.
>
> The key difference is that I get to decide how I want my computer to
> run. =|

if you decide to act stupid, don't complain.
>
> What I am saying is that recent changes have broken a usage pattern that I 
> was quite content with for more than a decade. =\

so you got away with stupid behaviour for a while, but now reality has
caught up with you. But instead of rethinking your approach or listening
to the advise of others you insist on continuing with your broken crap.
Sounds stupid.

>
>> Here's a idea.  Since YOU are the only one having this problem, why
>> don't YOU change what you are doing to something that actually works? 
>> What you are doing doesn't work.  Try something else.  Funny how those
>> "stupid" checks work for everyone else. 
> I'm at 193/250 right now so therefore all discussion of changing my
> procedures is tabled until the next time I have troubles (next month...)

pretty much whenever your run your stupid script.

>
> I mentioned this before.  If you keep posting but then refuse to accept
> help, people will start ignoring or blocking your messages.  Based on
> the posts that I see, I suspect some may have already.  At some point,
> even I will.  I've only ever blocked one other person on this list.  I
> can see that doubling at some point because you don't come here for help
> or accept any when it is given.  You just come here to gripe about
> things not working like you want when it is your method that is broken. 
> 
>
>
> May I remind you that most modern software has a "check for updates" button 
> that is fully automated... 
>
> May I also point out that the stated gentoo update process, of "emerge sync ; 
> emerge --update world rarely actually works or does not have the intended 
> effect without a several dozen qualifiers. I point out here that the 
> qualifiers I use were selected from the ones provided by portage. 
really? just tried. It worked. What am I doing wrong?

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[Alan Grimes]

Gregory Woodbury wrote:
> What the...?
> Do you have every package there is installed?  The worst updates I
> have seen
> are only 40-50 packages.  403 being 25% implies around 1600 - 1700
> packages.
> Actually that seems about right, but why are you getting that many
> updates? You
> may have maladjusted USE flags or keywords to make portage think that many
> need an update.  I'm running with ~amd64 set and I check updates once
> a day.

Well, I'm running some stupid number theory code that uses 110% of my
cpu and ram, and my web browsers are CPU hogs, so it's been 6wks/month
since last update. So right now I'm using the -30% of my cpu remaining
to run e-builds. =P   (205/250 atm...)


-- 
IQ is a measure of how stupid you feel.

Powers are not rights.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[Alan Grimes]

Neil Bothwick wrote:
> Have you read the emerge and portage man pages anytime in the last five
> years?

I tried to extract useful information from the emerge manpage a few days
ago but it contained no useful information, manpages are written in
moonspeak anyway.  I thought portage was just the file database, it
seems to be working perfectly so therefore I have no motive to try to
get any more information about it. I tried to find an on-line wiki about
emerge because that's how shit is documented in the 21st century but
couldn't. I wish I could remember where I got the documentation I needed
to configure the features list I'm using, it's been ages since I've
messed with it...


##
EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS="--jobs=1 --quiet-build=n --verbose"   

FEATURES="sandbox distlocks nostrip parallel-fetch userfetch userpriv
usersandbox splitdebug
-preserve-libs" 
 

##

-- 
IQ is a measure of how stupid you feel.

Powers are not rights.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[Alan Grimes]

Dale wrote:
> Do you really want a answer to that?  Seriously?  You asked so I guess
> you do.  Here it is.  Yes!  lol  The way you do things, and continue to
> do things, even after having several VERY experienced users tell you
> that the way you are doing things is wrong pretty much says it all.  If
> I post that I was doing something and getting a bad result and someone
> such as Neil and/or Alan McKinnon tells me I am doing it wrong, you can
> bet your last dollar that I am about to change how I do things.  Why, if
> either or both of them tell me I am doing something wrong, I'm doing it
> wrong.  If I continue to do things the same way, well, that would be my
> fault not members of this list or emerge/portage.  So far, I don't
> recall seeing a single post that supports how your script is set up. 
> Not one, except you of course. 

This is linux, not Windows 10.

The key difference is that I get to decide how I want my computer to
run. =|

What I am saying is that recent changes have broken a usage pattern that I was 
quite content with for more than a decade. =\

> Here's a idea.  Since YOU are the only one having this problem, why
> don't YOU change what you are doing to something that actually works? 
> What you are doing doesn't work.  Try something else.  Funny how those
> "stupid" checks work for everyone else. 

I'm at 193/250 right now so therefore all discussion of changing my
procedures is tabled until the next time I have troubles (next month...)

 
I mentioned this before.  If you keep posting but then refuse to accept
help, people will start ignoring or blocking your messages.  Based on
the posts that I see, I suspect some may have already.  At some point,
even I will.  I've only ever blocked one other person on this list.  I
can see that doubling at some point because you don't come here for help
or accept any when it is given.  You just come here to gripe about
things not working like you want when it is your method that is broken. 



May I remind you that most modern software has a "check for updates" button 
that is fully automated... 

May I also point out that the stated gentoo update process, of "emerge sync ; 
emerge --update world rarely actually works or does not have the intended 
effect without a several dozen qualifiers. I point out here that the qualifiers 
I use were selected from the ones provided by portage. 

Now, the question is what qualifiers to use... Regardless of what qualifiers 
you use you will have errors. So therefore you are forced to do something to 
recover from those errors. I have found that it never hurts to blindly skip the 
current package and try the next, so that's exactly what I do. 

When I saw that my updates always had the same sequence of commands, I wrote 
the first versions of my scripts.  Since then, I have edited, and enhanced my 
scripts to either take advantage of good new features such as the built-in 
keep-going command, or to disable features that features, that even once, 
caused me problems, then I do so. If disabling a feature, even once, solves a 
problem I will never attempt to use that feature again. 

So I come here looking for something else to disable because, obviously, the 
problem is that it is checking something that it would be better off not 
checking because the problem it seems to think will happen either won't happen 
or will be so trivial that it won't have any lasting effects on the system. The 
costs in frustration for the check and trying to satisfy the check being many 
orders of magnitude greater than whatever emerge was doing before the incident 
involving water skis, a ramp, and the proverbial SHARK. 

Instead I'm told that I'm an idiot and should switch to some unspicified but 
vastly more laborious process involving manually second-guessing the build 
order or some such nonsense... =\






-- 
IQ is a measure of how stupid you feel.

Powers are not rights.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[Peter Humphrey]

On Sunday 29 May 2016 08:13:03 Alan Grimes wrote:

> You know what? fuck you.  That's what.

I don't have to put up with childish petulance like that.

Plonk.

-- 
Rgds
Peter

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[R0b0t1]

Newfags. Newfags everywhere.

If you're going to fly by the seat of your pants you do it so other people
don't have to. Complaining [too] loudly is counterproduxtive.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[Gregory Woodbury]

On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 8:13 AM, Alan Grimes  wrote:

> Gregory Woodbury wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 4:53 PM, Neil Bothwick  > > wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, 28 May 2016 21:54:09 +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> >
> > > thanks a lot. My eyes are bleeding.
> >
> > Serves you right for being daft enough to read it again!
> >
> > I'd suggest that Alan RTFM for the commands he uses, but that
> > would be a
> > waste of keystrokes.
> >
> >
> > I have to agree with ng0
> >
> > WOW!
> >
> > Alan just wants to start it and walk away, as if Gentoo was a binary
> > distribution
> > that handles it all upstream.  He doesn't want to take the time to
> > review what
> > emerge is proposing and see if changes are needed first.
>
> You know what? fuck you.  That's what.
>

You really shouldn't say things like that. Some might consider it
harassment, and others
might take you up on the offer; you never can tell.


>
> The update list it's proposing is 403 packages, or roughly 25% of my
> system.
>

What the...?
Do you have every package there is installed?  The worst updates I have seen
are only 40-50 packages.  403 being 25% implies around 1600 - 1700 packages.
Actually that seems about right, but why are you getting that many updates?
You
may have maladjusted USE flags or keywords to make portage think that many
need an update.  I'm running with ~amd64 set and I check updates once a day.


> > Hey Alan: Gentoo is NOT a start an update and walk away setup. Some human
> > mind needs to be involved if troubles arise.  Also, read make.conf(5)
> > and set up
> > the various variables correctly; PYTHON_SINGLE_TARGET should only have
> > one python version set.
>
> DO YOU SERIOUSLY THINK I'M THAT STUPID??? SERIOUSLY
>

The output from the script that Dale re-posted clearly shows emerge
complaining
about PYTHON_SINGLE_TARGET being wrong for a dependency expression
in the ebuild involved.  That speaks for itself.

> Furthermore, the current portage doesn't require the revdep-rebuild
> > step because
> > of the @preserved-rebuild set creation.
>
> That missfeature is incompatible with how I use my system. I have not
> reformatted my hard drive in six years.
>

What does reformatting a hard drive have to do with it? I have an
installation that
has been running on one partition since 2011, when I had to build a new
computer
system after a flood.  It does look like I'm going to do a reinstall for
KDE5 Plasma
because too much KDE4 stuff hanging around seems to make the desktop
unstable.  It might take a few hours to do that.


> The principle way I accomplish that is by prohibiting the growth of
> cruft in the system. I cannot tolerate the accumulation of back versions
> anywhere in the system except where absolutely necessary. So if it is
> possible to re-build broken packages against new versions, I demand that
> take place
> as quickly as possible such that the system is left in the most pristine
> and self-consistent state possible. --- secret of immortality, dude. =\
>
> Gentoo used to be superlatively excellent at that.
>
> > In any case, to try and force things through without looking at what
> > problems are occuring
> > is just (excuse my language) batshit crazy stupid.
>
> You
> dumb.
> shit.
>
> You literally have no fucking clue do you?
>

You have no idea...
I have been using UNIX and UNIX-like systems since 1977. I've been involved
in UNIX and Linux for 40 years. I've written drivers, scripts, init systems
and lots
of other stuff, some of which is still hanging around yet.

I guess it tickles your fancy to tell people who know more than you that
they
don't have a "clue" when it is clear that you are ignoring the advice and
guidance
they are offering.

Others in this thread have offered advice and commentary, clearly explaining
why your methods are out-of-whack.  But I do like watching the logs and
builds
scroll by -- one does learn some interesting interactions occasionally.
[For example:
don't build virtualbox with more than -j2 because there is a missing
dependency in
the Makefile.]  For long builds, tailing or lessing the logfiles are easy,
and can be
done in another tab of the terminal program. I also have keep-going in my
default
Emerge options, along with --ask and --verbose; but when a build falters I
can
go look at the saved logfile and see exactly what went wrong, and usually
figure out
how to fix it. Most of the time is is a USE flag mixup, and occasionally a
missing
RDEPEND or DEPEND -- those get reported on Bugzilla.

I add a fair number of USE flags to the profile via make.conf, but some
don't belong
there, but rather in package.use.  I take advantage of the ability for
package.use to
be a directory, and place package specific USE flags in appropriately named
files
within that directory.  Interestingly, the KDE5 Plasma re-install (which is
almost done)
has fewer package specific flags than KDE4. 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am 29.05.2016 um 22:15 schrieb Alan McKinnon:
> On 29/05/2016 19:54, Dale wrote:
>> Alan McKinnon wrote:
>>> On 29/05/2016 11:28, Dale wrote:
 Håkon Alstadheim wrote:
> Den 29. mai 2016 03:17, skrev Gregory Woodbury:
>> WOW!
>>
>> Alan just wants to start it and walk away, as if Gentoo was a binary
>> distribution
>> that handles it all upstream.  He doesn't want to take the time to
>> review what
>> emerge is proposing and see if changes are needed first.
>>
> It IS actually possible to do that, at least for non-critical systems.
> Just make sure to mail yourself with the emerge output, so you can fix
> things before the next automatic run.
>
> The point being that you don't have to sit and watch while emerge works.
> You can have the output of any blocks or failures waiting for you in
> your inbox at your convenience.
>
> For this to work in a timely fashion you need to stay on stable packages
> as much as possible, and also keep other customizations to a minimum,
> e.g. don't use --autounmask-write.
>
 Thing is, that's not what Alan seems to want.  Alan wants something like
 Ubuntu or something where you tell it to upgrade and then walk away
 without checking anything.
>>> You are both wrong. What Alan Grimes really wants is an excuse (any
>>> excuse) to whine, whinge and bitch about $STUFF.
>>>
>>> Notice how he never replies to any thread he starts?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Well, he did reply.  Either his script is still doing it or he did and
>> he hasn't learned anything yet. 
>>
>> It's funny how he is the only one that has these problems and how he
>> keeps using that disaster of a script.  I don't think anyone has posted
>> a positive thing about that script.  I'm no script guru by any means but
>> even I can read that thing and see what a disaster it is. 
>>
>> Best of luck to him.  I'm about done trying to help.  Key word, trying.
>>
>> Dale
>>
>> :-)  :-) 
>>
>
> I agree Dale.
>
> Mr Grimes should probably move over to Linux From Scratch. It has none
> of portage's absurdities, makes no effort at all to be helpful to the
> user and allows anyone to write any build automation they feel is
> appropriate. LFS also requires you to watch all the compiler output all
> the time to catch problems; it all seems to match Mr Grimes'
> requirements right down to a tee.
>
>
> I'm going to STFU down, go to bed and finish an astonishingly intriguing
> Stephen King book and let the computer get on with doing whatever it
> thinks perl-cleaner fixes.
>

personally, I hope he stays around. His mails and the resulting threads
amuse me.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[Neil Bothwick]

On Sun, 29 May 2016 08:13:03 -0400, Alan Grimes wrote:

> You know what? fuck you.  That's what.

Helpful, really helpful.

> Packages are being updated at such a breakneck pace these days that it
> simply isn't humanly possible to review these manually, or even do
> anything intelligent if I tried.

Indeed, looking at the output of emerge -a before hitting enter is sooo
demanding.

> Then emerge
> got ornery and stopped letting the necessary, cathartic, inevitable,
> trainwreck take place, which is actually a good thing because the

You really think that breaking people's systems is a good thing?

> DO YOU SERIOUSLY THINK I'M THAT STUPID??? SERIOUSLY

I'll let others form their own opinions on this.

> > Furthermore, the current portage doesn't require the revdep-rebuild
> > step because
> > of the @preserved-rebuild set creation.  
> 
> That missfeature is incompatible with how I use my system. I have not
> reformatted my hard drive in six years.

Only six years? I am using installations that are older than that, even
if the hard drives aren't.

> The principle way I accomplish that is by prohibiting the growth of
> cruft in the system. I cannot tolerate the accumulation of back versions
> anywhere in the system except where absolutely necessary. So if it is
> possible to re-build broken packages against new versions, I demand that
> take place
> as quickly as possible such that the system is left in the most pristine
> and self-consistent state possible. --- secret of immortality, dude. =\

So a clean but broken system is preferable to having a few older
versions of libraries hanging around for half and hour, until they can be
safely, and automatically, removed?

Anyway, it seems you are well out of date in your understanding of how
portage works. preserved-rebuild is rarely needed these days, thanks to
the mysteries of subslots, which can do the necessary rebuilding at the
point of upgrade.

> You
> dumb.
> shit.
> 
> You literally have no fucking clue do you?

You seem to be echoing the thoughts of so many others here.
 
> Do you think I enabled that missfeature they introduced a few years ago
> that hid all of the build output so all I got to see was
> 
> installing package (1/400)
> installing package (2/400)
> installing package (3/400)

It's an options, use it or don't use it. If you really want your updates
to take longer just so you can see all the GCC output, which makes
little sense anyway when MAKEOPTS is set to anything but -j1.
Personally, I prefer the Unix approach of succeed quietly, fail noisily.
If I see compiler output on my monitor, i know something is wrong.
 
> I am typing this on my smaller monitor because I have the full verbose
> build process fullscreen on my 24". That's right, for the last 12 years,
> I have watched every single build take place in live time because I've
> watched it execute every single compiler invocation, I have watched
> every error and warning message.

What a sad life you must have. Watching compiler output is even more
tedious than reading Twitter!
 
> I do not need log files because I watch everything in live time.

And you retain everything you see and never need to refer back to what
scrolled off the screen ten minutes ago?

> By
> doing this, I have learned things about my packages that you fucking
> dipshits couldn't imagine. Back before when Gentoo jumped the shark
> (tried to force everyone onto libav), the system was completely
> self-correcting, If the system set was intact, literally every other
> problem would self correct. I didn't need to rant on this list because
> everything was perfect.

> The problem is that the portage people don't understand how the packages
> actually work

So there's the problem, all the Gentoo devs are dipshits, as well as all
of us. No wonder Gentoo is such a pile of steaming shite. I'm completely
flabbergasted that you still consider it worth using.

> It wouldn't let me do that because it was throwing a conflict message
> for libreoffice so I was forced to temporarily uninstall it to clear a
> block message, fuck you again portage...

Have you read the emerge and portage man pages anytime in the last five
years?

> IQ is a measure of how stupid you feel.

What measures how stupid you act?


-- 
Neil Bothwick

What do you have when you have six lawyers buried up to their necks in
sand? Not enough sand.


pgpHEeDWphQcf.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[Alan McKinnon]

On 29/05/2016 19:54, Dale wrote:
> Alan McKinnon wrote:
>> On 29/05/2016 11:28, Dale wrote:
>>> Håkon Alstadheim wrote:
 Den 29. mai 2016 03:17, skrev Gregory Woodbury:
> WOW!
>
> Alan just wants to start it and walk away, as if Gentoo was a binary
> distribution
> that handles it all upstream.  He doesn't want to take the time to
> review what
> emerge is proposing and see if changes are needed first.
>
 It IS actually possible to do that, at least for non-critical systems.
 Just make sure to mail yourself with the emerge output, so you can fix
 things before the next automatic run.

 The point being that you don't have to sit and watch while emerge works.
 You can have the output of any blocks or failures waiting for you in
 your inbox at your convenience.

 For this to work in a timely fashion you need to stay on stable packages
 as much as possible, and also keep other customizations to a minimum,
 e.g. don't use --autounmask-write.

>>> Thing is, that's not what Alan seems to want.  Alan wants something like
>>> Ubuntu or something where you tell it to upgrade and then walk away
>>> without checking anything.
>>
>> You are both wrong. What Alan Grimes really wants is an excuse (any
>> excuse) to whine, whinge and bitch about $STUFF.
>>
>> Notice how he never replies to any thread he starts?
>>
>>
> 
> 
> Well, he did reply.  Either his script is still doing it or he did and
> he hasn't learned anything yet. 
> 
> It's funny how he is the only one that has these problems and how he
> keeps using that disaster of a script.  I don't think anyone has posted
> a positive thing about that script.  I'm no script guru by any means but
> even I can read that thing and see what a disaster it is. 
> 
> Best of luck to him.  I'm about done trying to help.  Key word, trying.
> 
> Dale
> 
> :-)  :-) 
> 


I agree Dale.

Mr Grimes should probably move over to Linux From Scratch. It has none
of portage's absurdities, makes no effort at all to be helpful to the
user and allows anyone to write any build automation they feel is
appropriate. LFS also requires you to watch all the compiler output all
the time to catch problems; it all seems to match Mr Grimes'
requirements right down to a tee.


I'm going to STFU down, go to bed and finish an astonishingly intriguing
Stephen King book and let the computer get on with doing whatever it
thinks perl-cleaner fixes.

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckin...@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[Dale]

»Q« wrote:
> On Sun, 29 May 2016 08:13:03 -0400
> Alan Grimes  wrote:
>
>> You know what? fuck you.  That's what.
> It's unclear whether you're attacking only Gregory or the entire
> list.  If the latter, would you consider unsubscribing?  It looks as
> though no one her is interested in helping you as long as you continue
> using the "jackhammer", so the only result of you posting here is that
> the replies make you more angry than your Gentoo problems alone did.
> (To be clear:  I certainly don't speak for the entire list -- this is
> just one guy's suggestion that you consider it.)
>

In my opinion, if he is not going to take advice from other users here,
why post to begin with?  If he isn't going to post, may as well
unsubscribe and be done with it.  He's not helping anyone else with his
posts and he doesn't take the help that has been provided numerous
times.  He's not giving or taking so what is the point? 

So, I 2nd the motion.  lol 

In all honesty, I wish he would go file bug reports on BGO since he
thinks everything Gentoo is broken.  I suspect a few devs would give him
a ear full and at some point, block him from filing bugs at all.  I
seriously doubt the devs would put up with even a small part of this mess. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[Dale]

Daniel Frey wrote:
> On 05/29/2016 02:20 AM, Dale wrote:
>> Neil Bothwick wrote:
>>> I have a weekly system health check cron job that includes revdep-rebuild
>>> -pi (hint to Alan: that's the correct way to have revdep-rebuild ignore
>>> the results of previous runs). It rarely finds anything. There's still
>>> the occasional glitch with preserved-libs, but I fons it works
>>> ninety-lots % of the time, and it is far better than the "let it break
>>> then try to fix it approach" of the days we needed to rely on
>>> revdep-rebuild.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I haven't ran revdep-rebuild in likely over a year.  Just for giggles, I
>> ran it a bit ago.  The only thing it found was libreoffice.  That's not
>> exactly a critical package or anything.  Given that, I don't think it
>> really serves any point. 
>>
>> I wonder if me having backtrack set to 100 helps with that?  Of course,
>> unlike poor Alan, I also have a sane approach to upgrading.  I also run
>> the latest non- version of portage. 
>>
>> Dale
>>
>> :-)  :-) 
>>
>>
> I should correct myself, I always run revdep-rebuild after a depclean.
> The point it, portage doesn't catch everything, regardless of its
> importance or not.
>
> Dan
>
>

It seems to here.  Like I said, I haven't ran it in over a year and all
it found was libreoffice.  Everything else was fine.  I don't run
--depclean after every upgrade but do after either a big update or every
other update, whichever comes first. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[Dale]

Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On 29/05/2016 11:28, Dale wrote:
>> Håkon Alstadheim wrote:
>>> Den 29. mai 2016 03:17, skrev Gregory Woodbury:
 WOW!

 Alan just wants to start it and walk away, as if Gentoo was a binary
 distribution
 that handles it all upstream.  He doesn't want to take the time to
 review what
 emerge is proposing and see if changes are needed first.

>>> It IS actually possible to do that, at least for non-critical systems.
>>> Just make sure to mail yourself with the emerge output, so you can fix
>>> things before the next automatic run.
>>>
>>> The point being that you don't have to sit and watch while emerge works.
>>> You can have the output of any blocks or failures waiting for you in
>>> your inbox at your convenience.
>>>
>>> For this to work in a timely fashion you need to stay on stable packages
>>> as much as possible, and also keep other customizations to a minimum,
>>> e.g. don't use --autounmask-write.
>>>
>> Thing is, that's not what Alan seems to want.  Alan wants something like
>> Ubuntu or something where you tell it to upgrade and then walk away
>> without checking anything.
>
> You are both wrong. What Alan Grimes really wants is an excuse (any
> excuse) to whine, whinge and bitch about $STUFF.
>
> Notice how he never replies to any thread he starts?
>
>


Well, he did reply.  Either his script is still doing it or he did and
he hasn't learned anything yet. 

It's funny how he is the only one that has these problems and how he
keeps using that disaster of a script.  I don't think anyone has posted
a positive thing about that script.  I'm no script guru by any means but
even I can read that thing and see what a disaster it is. 

Best of luck to him.  I'm about done trying to help.  Key word, trying.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[Dale]

Alan Grimes wrote:
> Gregory Woodbury wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 4:53 PM, Neil Bothwick > > wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 28 May 2016 21:54:09 +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>>
>> > thanks a lot. My eyes are bleeding.
>>
>> Serves you right for being daft enough to read it again!
>>
>> I'd suggest that Alan RTFM for the commands he uses, but that
>> would be a
>> waste of keystrokes.
>>
>>
>> I have to agree with ng0
>>
>> WOW!
>>
>> Alan just wants to start it and walk away, as if Gentoo was a binary
>> distribution
>> that handles it all upstream.  He doesn't want to take the time to
>> review what
>> emerge is proposing and see if changes are needed first.
> You know what? fuck you.  That's what.
>
> The update list it's proposing is 403 packages, or roughly 25% of my
> system.
>
> Packages are being updated at such a breakneck pace these days that it
> simply isn't humanly possible to review these manually, or even do
> anything intelligent if I tried. Back in the golden age, for about ten
> years even! my approach to updating my system worked great. Then emerge
> got ornery and stopped letting the necessary, cathartic, inevitable,
> trainwreck take place, which is actually a good thing because the
> partial-good, update which seems nightmarish on first analysis,
> ***ACTUALLY CORRECTS ITSELF WHEN THE SCRIPT IS RUN REPEATEDLY UNTIL NO
> PROBLEMS REMAIN AND THE SYSTEM IS PRISTINE AND GOOD FOR REBOOT***. I
> have done this happily many many many many times. It actually works that
> way and I was gleefully singing gentoo's praise for many years.
>
> No, the penguins seem to think it is possible to get it perfect on the
> first iteration. It's not. It's not just that there are a handful of
> packages that just won't work no matter what, it's just that it is
> sometimes necessary to let a bootstrapping process take place. This
> actually works if you don't use such draconian checking.

So, you still think it is emerge that is the problem and not your script
which everyone that has seen it says is the wrong way to do a update?  ROFL

I did a emerge -e  world not to long ago.  Out of the over 1,000
packages on here, I only had one failure.  Just one. 

>> Hey Alan: Gentoo is NOT a start an update and walk away setup. Some human 
>> mind needs to be involved if troubles arise.  Also, read make.conf(5)
>> and set up 
>> the various variables correctly; PYTHON_SINGLE_TARGET should only have
>> one python version set.
> DO YOU SERIOUSLY THINK I'M THAT STUPID??? SERIOUSLY

Do you really want a answer to that?  Seriously?  You asked so I guess
you do.  Here it is.  Yes!  lol  The way you do things, and continue to
do things, even after having several VERY experienced users tell you
that the way you are doing things is wrong pretty much says it all.  If
I post that I was doing something and getting a bad result and someone
such as Neil and/or Alan McKinnon tells me I am doing it wrong, you can
bet your last dollar that I am about to change how I do things.  Why, if
either or both of them tell me I am doing something wrong, I'm doing it
wrong.  If I continue to do things the same way, well, that would be my
fault not members of this list or emerge/portage.  So far, I don't
recall seeing a single post that supports how your script is set up. 
Not one, except you of course. 

>
>> Furthermore, the current portage doesn't require the revdep-rebuild
>> step because
>> of the @preserved-rebuild set creation.
> That missfeature is incompatible with how I use my system. I have not
> reformatted my hard drive in six years.
>
> The principle way I accomplish that is by prohibiting the growth of
> cruft in the system. I cannot tolerate the accumulation of back versions
> anywhere in the system except where absolutely necessary. So if it is
> possible to re-build broken packages against new versions, I demand that
> take place
> as quickly as possible such that the system is left in the most pristine
> and self-consistent state possible. --- secret of immortality, dude. =\
>
> Gentoo used to be superlatively excellent at that.
>
>> In any case, to try and force things through without looking at what
>> problems are occuring
>> is just (excuse my language) batshit crazy stupid.
> You
> dumb.
> shit.
>
> You literally have no fucking clue do you?

Thing is, it would seem to me that others on this list do have a clue
and have tried several times to explain that to you.  The person who
doesn't have a clue is the one that comes here complaining about
problems that no one else here has. 


>
> Do you think I enabled that missfeature they introduced a few years ago
> that hid all of the build output so all I got to see was
>
> installing package (1/400)
> installing package (2/400)
> installing package (3/400)
>
> I am typing this on my smaller monitor because I have the full verbose
> build process fullscreen on my 24". That's right, for the last 12 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[Daniel Frey]

On 05/29/2016 02:20 AM, Dale wrote:
> Neil Bothwick wrote:
>> I have a weekly system health check cron job that includes revdep-rebuild
>> -pi (hint to Alan: that's the correct way to have revdep-rebuild ignore
>> the results of previous runs). It rarely finds anything. There's still
>> the occasional glitch with preserved-libs, but I fons it works
>> ninety-lots % of the time, and it is far better than the "let it break
>> then try to fix it approach" of the days we needed to rely on
>> revdep-rebuild.
>>
>>
> 
> 
> I haven't ran revdep-rebuild in likely over a year.  Just for giggles, I
> ran it a bit ago.  The only thing it found was libreoffice.  That's not
> exactly a critical package or anything.  Given that, I don't think it
> really serves any point. 
> 
> I wonder if me having backtrack set to 100 helps with that?  Of course,
> unlike poor Alan, I also have a sane approach to upgrading.  I also run
> the latest non- version of portage. 
> 
> Dale
> 
> :-)  :-) 
> 
> 

I should correct myself, I always run revdep-rebuild after a depclean.
The point it, portage doesn't catch everything, regardless of its
importance or not.

Dan

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[Alan Grimes]

Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Sat, 28 May 2016 20:48:37 -0700, Daniel Frey wrote:
>
>>> Furthermore, the current portage doesn't require the revdep-rebuild
>>> step because
>>> of the @preserved-rebuild set creation.  
>> I beg to differ, portage still misses stuff more often than you think. I
>> always run revdep-rebuild after an emerge.
> I have a weekly system health check cron job that includes revdep-rebuild
> -pi (hint to Alan: that's the correct way to have revdep-rebuild ignore
> the results of previous runs). It rarely finds anything. There's still
> the occasional glitch with preserved-libs, but I fons it works
> ninety-lots % of the time, and it is far better than the "let it break
> then try to fix it approach" of the days we needed to rely on
> revdep-rebuild.

I respectfully disagree, my migraine quotient was much lower under that
approach than with what's going on now. =|

-- 
IQ is a measure of how stupid you feel.

Powers are not rights.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[Alan Grimes]

Gregory Woodbury wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 4:53 PM, Neil Bothwick  > wrote:
>
> On Sat, 28 May 2016 21:54:09 +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>
> > thanks a lot. My eyes are bleeding.
>
> Serves you right for being daft enough to read it again!
>
> I'd suggest that Alan RTFM for the commands he uses, but that
> would be a
> waste of keystrokes.
>
>
> I have to agree with ng0
>
> WOW!
>
> Alan just wants to start it and walk away, as if Gentoo was a binary
> distribution
> that handles it all upstream.  He doesn't want to take the time to
> review what
> emerge is proposing and see if changes are needed first.

You know what? fuck you.  That's what.

The update list it's proposing is 403 packages, or roughly 25% of my
system.

Packages are being updated at such a breakneck pace these days that it
simply isn't humanly possible to review these manually, or even do
anything intelligent if I tried. Back in the golden age, for about ten
years even! my approach to updating my system worked great. Then emerge
got ornery and stopped letting the necessary, cathartic, inevitable,
trainwreck take place, which is actually a good thing because the
partial-good, update which seems nightmarish on first analysis,
***ACTUALLY CORRECTS ITSELF WHEN THE SCRIPT IS RUN REPEATEDLY UNTIL NO
PROBLEMS REMAIN AND THE SYSTEM IS PRISTINE AND GOOD FOR REBOOT***. I
have done this happily many many many many times. It actually works that
way and I was gleefully singing gentoo's praise for many years.

No, the penguins seem to think it is possible to get it perfect on the
first iteration. It's not. It's not just that there are a handful of
packages that just won't work no matter what, it's just that it is
sometimes necessary to let a bootstrapping process take place. This
actually works if you don't use such draconian checking.

> Hey Alan: Gentoo is NOT a start an update and walk away setup. Some human 
> mind needs to be involved if troubles arise.  Also, read make.conf(5)
> and set up 
> the various variables correctly; PYTHON_SINGLE_TARGET should only have
> one python version set.

DO YOU SERIOUSLY THINK I'M THAT STUPID??? SERIOUSLY

> Furthermore, the current portage doesn't require the revdep-rebuild
> step because
> of the @preserved-rebuild set creation.

That missfeature is incompatible with how I use my system. I have not
reformatted my hard drive in six years.

The principle way I accomplish that is by prohibiting the growth of
cruft in the system. I cannot tolerate the accumulation of back versions
anywhere in the system except where absolutely necessary. So if it is
possible to re-build broken packages against new versions, I demand that
take place
as quickly as possible such that the system is left in the most pristine
and self-consistent state possible. --- secret of immortality, dude. =\

Gentoo used to be superlatively excellent at that.

> In any case, to try and force things through without looking at what
> problems are occuring
> is just (excuse my language) batshit crazy stupid.

You
dumb.
shit.

You literally have no fucking clue do you?

Do you think I enabled that missfeature they introduced a few years ago
that hid all of the build output so all I got to see was

installing package (1/400)
installing package (2/400)
installing package (3/400)

I am typing this on my smaller monitor because I have the full verbose
build process fullscreen on my 24". That's right, for the last 12 years,
I have watched every single build take place in live time because I've
watched it execute every single compiler invocation, I have watched
every error and warning message.

I do not need log files because I watch everything in live time. By
doing this, I have learned things about my packages that you fucking
dipshits couldn't imagine. Back before when Gentoo jumped the shark
(tried to force everyone onto libav), the system was completely
self-correcting, If the system set was intact, literally every other
problem would self correct. I didn't need to rant on this list because
everything was perfect.

The problem is that the portage people don't understand how the packages
actually work or what happens when these stupid, recently implemented
checks are disabled and emerge is run iteratively.

> I use my update generator script so make the emerge command(s) just so
> I can preview the packages and modify the sequences or leave out some
> updates
> if i need/want to do so. (E.g. I may want to defer a chromium or
> libreoffice update
> to after other updates are done and/or set them to occur with a lower
> niceness or
> an ionice idle class.)

It wouldn't let me do that because it was throwing a conflict message
for libreoffice so I was forced to temporarily uninstall it to clear a
block message, fuck you again portage...


-- 
IQ is a measure of how stupid you feel.

Powers are not rights.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[Neil Bothwick]

On Sun, 29 May 2016 12:26:08 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> You are both wrong. What Alan Grimes really wants is an excuse (any
> excuse) to whine, whinge and bitch about $STUFF.
> 
> Notice how he never replies to any thread he starts?

The script isn't that intelligent yet. ${DEITY} help us when it gains
that feature, although it will probably be based on repeating some
commands an arbitrary number of times than something sensible like a loop.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Never argue with an idiot.
First, they bring you down to their level.
Then they beat you with experience.


pgpBiQWCg3Khm.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[Alan McKinnon]

On 29/05/2016 11:28, Dale wrote:
> Håkon Alstadheim wrote:
>> Den 29. mai 2016 03:17, skrev Gregory Woodbury:
>>> WOW!
>>>
>>> Alan just wants to start it and walk away, as if Gentoo was a binary
>>> distribution
>>> that handles it all upstream.  He doesn't want to take the time to
>>> review what
>>> emerge is proposing and see if changes are needed first.
>>>
>> It IS actually possible to do that, at least for non-critical systems.
>> Just make sure to mail yourself with the emerge output, so you can fix
>> things before the next automatic run.
>>
>> The point being that you don't have to sit and watch while emerge works.
>> You can have the output of any blocks or failures waiting for you in
>> your inbox at your convenience.
>>
>> For this to work in a timely fashion you need to stay on stable packages
>> as much as possible, and also keep other customizations to a minimum,
>> e.g. don't use --autounmask-write.
>>
> 
> Thing is, that's not what Alan seems to want.  Alan wants something like
> Ubuntu or something where you tell it to upgrade and then walk away
> without checking anything.


You are both wrong. What Alan Grimes really wants is an excuse (any
excuse) to whine, whinge and bitch about $STUFF.

Notice how he never replies to any thread he starts?


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckin...@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[Dale]

Håkon Alstadheim wrote:
> Den 29. mai 2016 03:17, skrev Gregory Woodbury:
>> WOW!
>>
>> Alan just wants to start it and walk away, as if Gentoo was a binary
>> distribution
>> that handles it all upstream.  He doesn't want to take the time to
>> review what
>> emerge is proposing and see if changes are needed first.
>>
> It IS actually possible to do that, at least for non-critical systems.
> Just make sure to mail yourself with the emerge output, so you can fix
> things before the next automatic run.
>
> The point being that you don't have to sit and watch while emerge works.
> You can have the output of any blocks or failures waiting for you in
> your inbox at your convenience.
>
> For this to work in a timely fashion you need to stay on stable packages
> as much as possible, and also keep other customizations to a minimum,
> e.g. don't use --autounmask-write.
>

Thing is, that's not what Alan seems to want.  Alan wants something like
Ubuntu or something where you tell it to upgrade and then walk away
without checking anything.  Yea, you can script some things like
syncing, emailing a -p output to yourself and such but all that requires
a break in the process and Alan doesn't seem to get that part.  Alan
wants to type in one command and not put any effort into checking what
will be done or needs changing. 

I run a desktop here and it's not like my life or anything depends on
it.  There is no way I would do blind updates on this system for any
reason.  If I'm to busy to do my part, I wait until another time to do
the updates. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[Dale]

Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Sat, 28 May 2016 20:48:37 -0700, Daniel Frey wrote:
>
>>> Furthermore, the current portage doesn't require the revdep-rebuild
>>> step because
>>> of the @preserved-rebuild set creation.  
>> I beg to differ, portage still misses stuff more often than you think. I
>> always run revdep-rebuild after an emerge.
> I have a weekly system health check cron job that includes revdep-rebuild
> -pi (hint to Alan: that's the correct way to have revdep-rebuild ignore
> the results of previous runs). It rarely finds anything. There's still
> the occasional glitch with preserved-libs, but I fons it works
> ninety-lots % of the time, and it is far better than the "let it break
> then try to fix it approach" of the days we needed to rely on
> revdep-rebuild.
>
>


I haven't ran revdep-rebuild in likely over a year.  Just for giggles, I
ran it a bit ago.  The only thing it found was libreoffice.  That's not
exactly a critical package or anything.  Given that, I don't think it
really serves any point. 

I wonder if me having backtrack set to 100 helps with that?  Of course,
unlike poor Alan, I also have a sane approach to upgrading.  I also run
the latest non- version of portage. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[Neil Bothwick]

On Sat, 28 May 2016 20:48:37 -0700, Daniel Frey wrote:

> > Furthermore, the current portage doesn't require the revdep-rebuild
> > step because
> > of the @preserved-rebuild set creation.  
> 
> I beg to differ, portage still misses stuff more often than you think. I
> always run revdep-rebuild after an emerge.

I have a weekly system health check cron job that includes revdep-rebuild
-pi (hint to Alan: that's the correct way to have revdep-rebuild ignore
the results of previous runs). It rarely finds anything. There's still
the occasional glitch with preserved-libs, but I fons it works
ninety-lots % of the time, and it is far better than the "let it break
then try to fix it approach" of the days we needed to rely on
revdep-rebuild.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

God is real, unless specifically declared integer.


pgpI2N7U7khek.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[Peter Humphrey]

On Sunday 29 May 2016 09:45:57 I wrote:
> On Saturday 28 May 2016 12:06:20 Dale wrote:
> > What is also a surprise, Alan hasn't figured out that his script is the
> > problem.
> 
> It's called stubbornness, obduracy, obstinacy, wilful self-flagellation -
> choose your pick (as my Dad used to say when the rock cakes came out).

I missed the obvious one: pig-headedness.

-- 
Rgds
Peter

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[Peter Humphrey]

On Saturday 28 May 2016 12:06:20 Dale wrote:

> What is also a surprise, Alan hasn't figured out that his script is the
> problem.

It's called stubbornness, obduracy, obstinacy, wilful self-flagellation - 
choose your pick (as my Dad used to say when the rock cakes came out).

-- 
Rgds
Peter

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[Håkon Alstadheim]

Den 29. mai 2016 03:17, skrev Gregory Woodbury:
>
> WOW!
>
> Alan just wants to start it and walk away, as if Gentoo was a binary
> distribution
> that handles it all upstream.  He doesn't want to take the time to
> review what
> emerge is proposing and see if changes are needed first.
>
It IS actually possible to do that, at least for non-critical systems.
Just make sure to mail yourself with the emerge output, so you can fix
things before the next automatic run.

The point being that you don't have to sit and watch while emerge works.
You can have the output of any blocks or failures waiting for you in
your inbox at your convenience.

For this to work in a timely fashion you need to stay on stable packages
as much as possible, and also keep other customizations to a minimum,
e.g. don't use --autounmask-write.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[Daniel Frey]

On 05/28/2016 06:17 PM, Gregory Woodbury wrote:
> Furthermore, the current portage doesn't require the revdep-rebuild step
> because
> of the @preserved-rebuild set creation.

I beg to differ, portage still misses stuff more often than you think. I
always run revdep-rebuild after an emerge.

Dan

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[Gregory Woodbury]

On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 4:53 PM, Neil Bothwick  wrote:

> On Sat, 28 May 2016 21:54:09 +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>
> > thanks a lot. My eyes are bleeding.
>
> Serves you right for being daft enough to read it again!
>
> I'd suggest that Alan RTFM for the commands he uses, but that would be a
> waste of keystrokes.
>
>
I have to agree with ng0

WOW!

Alan just wants to start it and walk away, as if Gentoo was a binary
distribution
that handles it all upstream.  He doesn't want to take the time to review
what
emerge is proposing and see if changes are needed first.

Hey Alan: Gentoo is NOT a start an update and walk away setup. Some human
mind needs to be involved if troubles arise.  Also, read make.conf(5) and
set up
the various variables correctly; PYTHON_SINGLE_TARGET should only have
one python version set.

Furthermore, the current portage doesn't require the revdep-rebuild step
because
of the @preserved-rebuild set creation.

In any case, to try and force things through without looking at what
problems are occuring
is just (excuse my language) batshit crazy stupid.


I use my update generator script so make the emerge command(s) just so
I can preview the packages and modify the sequences or leave out some
updates
if i need/want to do so. (E.g. I may want to defer a chromium or
libreoffice update
to after other updates are done and/or set them to occur with a lower
niceness or
an ionice idle class.)

-- 
G.Wolfe Woodbury
redwo...@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[Neil Bothwick]

On Sat, 28 May 2016 21:54:09 +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:

> thanks a lot. My eyes are bleeding.

Serves you right for being daft enough to read it again!

I'd suggest that Alan RTFM for the commands he uses, but that would be a
waste of keystrokes.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

One-seventh of life is spent on Monday.


pgpH9rxHizmdr.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[ng0]

On 2016-05-28(01:49:22PM-0500), Dale wrote:
> Dale wrote:
> > Gregory Woodbury wrote:
> >> Has Alan ever posted his "jackhammer" script for some experts to look
> >> at?
> >>
> >> I get by really well with a small script that reads the eix outputs,
> >> finds the "[U]"
> >> tagged packages, and then runs "emerge -u1" on that list.
> >>
> >> Doing anything more than that will be a cause of pain and suffering.
> >>
> >> If a package needs patches for something special, it is better to
> >> make a local
> >> repository with modified ebuilds and distfiles, rather than try to
> >> force the gentoo repo
> >> into your own mess. I do this for a few tthings that Gentoo doesn't
> >> ship. Portage
> >> is actuallly quite flexible underneath, itt just takes a bit of learning.
> >>
> >> --
> >> G.Wolfe Woodbury
> >> redwo...@gmail.com 
> >
> >
> > He did a while back.  Some very experienced Gentoo users here
> > explained to him that his script was the problem.  From memory which
> > isn't all that good, it syncs the tree which is fine.  After that, it
> > gets bad.  I think it did the updates and then repeated that several
> > times within the script.  That is done without him looking to see if
> > anything needs to be changed, USE flags etc, or if something shouldn't
> > be updated at all.  I'm pretty sure that it then deletes all the logs
> > of what was done, which means anything broken is broke and no record
> > of what or even why.
> >
> > Yes, some things can be done with a script.  However, there needs to
> > be a point in there where the user, the real brain of what is wanted,
> > looks at the list of what will be updated.  Only a human can look and
> > see if there is USE flag changes or other issues that need a config
> > file to be edited.   Alan skips all that.
> >
> > If you want, I can go dig it out and post it.  I should have a copy of
> > the script in my local email.  I keep them for like 2 years or
> > something then it deletes the old stuff.  I'm not sure if you will
> > laugh your head off or cry tho.
> >
> > Dale
> >
> > :-)  :-)
>
>
> What the heck.  I went back and found it.  It only took a few minutes.
> The rest of this message is the email where he has his script.  I'll do
> my usual sign off at the bottom, rest is his post.   For those who have
> already seen it, you might want to skip past the rest.  No need
> torturing yourself again.
>
>
> > I use two scripts for all emerge use, the goal is to run one command and
> > then walk away:
> >
> > Standard general update script:
> > ###
> > tortoise ~ # cat sysupdate
> >
> > #they must have moved or removed the logs, might have to track them down
> > again...
> > #rm /var/log/emerge*
> >
> > # cache /usr/portage
> > echo "caching /usr/portage.  This will take a long time."
> > time ls -R /usr/portage > /dev/null
> >
> > emerge --sync
> > layman --sync ALL
> >
> > emerge --update --verbose portage
> > emerge --update --newuse --deep --with-bdeps=y system --keep-going
> > emerge --update --newuse --deep --with-bdeps=y world --keep-going
> >
> > rm -f /var/cache/revdep-rebuild/*.rr
> > revdep-rebuild
> > emerge --skipfirst --resume
> > emerge --skipfirst --resume
> > etc-update
> > eclean-dist
> > 
> >
> > The eclean line was added just a few days ago from this thread...
> >
> > This one is intended to be a nice gentle update script.
> > It caches the portage tree, then syncs everything, then updates
> > everything starting with critical system packages, then all world
> > packages...
> >
> > Then it cleans stuff up, it jcakhammers the revdep-rebuild but not too
> > hard
> >
> >
> > This next script is what I use when emerge starts giving me shit:
> >
> > ##
> > tortoise ~ # cat keepgoing
> > emerge --update --newuse --deep --with-bdeps=y system
> > emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
> > emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
> > emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
> >
> > emerge --update --newuse --deep --with-bdeps=y world
> > emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
> > emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
> > emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
> > emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
> > emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
> > emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
> > emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
> > emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
> > emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
> > emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
> >
> > rm /var/cache/revdep-rebuild/*.rr
> > revdep-rebuild
> > emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
> > emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
> > emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
> > emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
> >
> > etc-update
> > ###
> >
> > It's basically the same as the working section of the above but instead
> > of letting emerge do it's thing, it jackhammers that bitch as hard as
> > possible to get as much updated as possible, but it requires emerge to
> > do something and not error out for no 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[Dale]

Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> Am 28.05.2016 um 20:49 schrieb Dale:
>> Dale wrote:
>>
>> What the heck.  I went back and found it.  It only took a few
>> minutes.  The rest of this message is the email where he has his
>> script.  I'll do my usual sign off at the bottom, rest is his post.  
>> For those who have already seen it, you might want to skip past the
>> rest.  No need torturing yourself again. 
>>
>> <<>>
>> Dale
>>
>> :-)  :-) 
>
> thanks a lot. My eyes are bleeding.


Well, I did warn you to skip it. 

I wonder, does he ever have a upgrade that goes smoothly?  That script
should bring out just about every single thing that can go wrong.  Just
wondering. 

Now, I got that air filter, cleaned the grease off the engine, removed
the bird nest as well,, changed the oil, new sparky plug and now I'm
going to test the tiller.  See, that is something productive to do. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am 28.05.2016 um 20:49 schrieb Dale:
> Dale wrote:
>> Gregory Woodbury wrote:
>>> Has Alan ever posted his "jackhammer" script for some experts to
>>> look at?
>>>
>>> I get by really well with a small script that reads the eix outputs,
>>> finds the "[U]"
>>> tagged packages, and then runs "emerge -u1" on that list.
>>>
>>> Doing anything more than that will be a cause of pain and suffering.
>>>
>>> If a package needs patches for something special, it is better to
>>> make a local 
>>> repository with modified ebuilds and distfiles, rather than try to
>>> force the gentoo repo 
>>> into your own mess. I do this for a few tthings that Gentoo doesn't
>>> ship. Portage
>>> is actuallly quite flexible underneath, itt just takes a bit of
>>> learning.
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> G.Wolfe Woodbury
>>> redwo...@gmail.com 
>>
>>
>> He did a while back.  Some very experienced Gentoo users here
>> explained to him that his script was the problem.  From memory which
>> isn't all that good, it syncs the tree which is fine.  After that, it
>> gets bad.  I think it did the updates and then repeated that several
>> times within the script.  That is done without him looking to see if
>> anything needs to be changed, USE flags etc, or if something
>> shouldn't be updated at all.  I'm pretty sure that it then deletes
>> all the logs of what was done, which means anything broken is broke
>> and no record of what or even why. 
>>
>> Yes, some things can be done with a script.  However, there needs to
>> be a point in there where the user, the real brain of what is wanted,
>> looks at the list of what will be updated.  Only a human can look and
>> see if there is USE flag changes or other issues that need a config
>> file to be edited.   Alan skips all that. 
>>
>> If you want, I can go dig it out and post it.  I should have a copy
>> of the script in my local email.  I keep them for like 2 years or
>> something then it deletes the old stuff.  I'm not sure if you will
>> laugh your head off or cry tho. 
>>
>> Dale
>>
>> :-)  :-) 
>
>
> What the heck.  I went back and found it.  It only took a few
> minutes.  The rest of this message is the email where he has his
> script.  I'll do my usual sign off at the bottom, rest is his post.  
> For those who have already seen it, you might want to skip past the
> rest.  No need torturing yourself again. 
>
>
>> I use two scripts for all emerge use, the goal is to run one command and
>> then walk away:
>>
>> Standard general update script:
>> ###
>> tortoise ~ # cat sysupdate
>>
>> #they must have moved or removed the logs, might have to track them down
>> again...
>> #rm /var/log/emerge*
>>
>> # cache /usr/portage 
>> echo "caching /usr/portage.  This will take a long time."
>> time ls -R /usr/portage > /dev/null
>>
>> emerge --sync
>> layman --sync ALL
>>
>> emerge --update --verbose portage
>> emerge --update --newuse --deep --with-bdeps=y system --keep-going
>> emerge --update --newuse --deep --with-bdeps=y world --keep-going
>>
>> rm -f /var/cache/revdep-rebuild/*.rr
>> revdep-rebuild
>> emerge --skipfirst --resume
>> emerge --skipfirst --resume
>> etc-update
>> eclean-dist
>> 
>>
>> The eclean line was added just a few days ago from this thread...
>>
>> This one is intended to be a nice gentle update script.
>> It caches the portage tree, then syncs everything, then updates
>> everything starting with critical system packages, then all world
>> packages...
>>
>> Then it cleans stuff up, it jcakhammers the revdep-rebuild but not too
>> hard
>>
>>
>> This next script is what I use when emerge starts giving me shit:
>>
>> ##
>> tortoise ~ # cat keepgoing
>> emerge --update --newuse --deep --with-bdeps=y system
>> emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
>> emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
>> emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
>>
>> emerge --update --newuse --deep --with-bdeps=y world
>> emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
>> emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
>> emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
>> emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
>> emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
>> emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
>> emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
>> emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
>> emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
>> emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
>>
>> rm /var/cache/revdep-rebuild/*.rr
>> revdep-rebuild
>> emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
>> emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
>> emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
>> emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
>>
>> etc-update
>> ###
>>
>> It's basically the same as the working section of the above but instead
>> of letting emerge do it's thing, it jackhammers that bitch as hard as
>> possible to get as much updated as possible, but it requires emerge to
>> do something and not error out for no good reason... I expect prune and
>> depclean to be useless but I kinda need update to basically work every
>> time. 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[Dale]

Dale wrote:
> Gregory Woodbury wrote:
>> Has Alan ever posted his "jackhammer" script for some experts to look
>> at?
>>
>> I get by really well with a small script that reads the eix outputs,
>> finds the "[U]"
>> tagged packages, and then runs "emerge -u1" on that list.
>>
>> Doing anything more than that will be a cause of pain and suffering.
>>
>> If a package needs patches for something special, it is better to
>> make a local 
>> repository with modified ebuilds and distfiles, rather than try to
>> force the gentoo repo 
>> into your own mess. I do this for a few tthings that Gentoo doesn't
>> ship. Portage
>> is actuallly quite flexible underneath, itt just takes a bit of learning.
>>
>> -- 
>> G.Wolfe Woodbury
>> redwo...@gmail.com 
>
>
> He did a while back.  Some very experienced Gentoo users here
> explained to him that his script was the problem.  From memory which
> isn't all that good, it syncs the tree which is fine.  After that, it
> gets bad.  I think it did the updates and then repeated that several
> times within the script.  That is done without him looking to see if
> anything needs to be changed, USE flags etc, or if something shouldn't
> be updated at all.  I'm pretty sure that it then deletes all the logs
> of what was done, which means anything broken is broke and no record
> of what or even why. 
>
> Yes, some things can be done with a script.  However, there needs to
> be a point in there where the user, the real brain of what is wanted,
> looks at the list of what will be updated.  Only a human can look and
> see if there is USE flag changes or other issues that need a config
> file to be edited.   Alan skips all that. 
>
> If you want, I can go dig it out and post it.  I should have a copy of
> the script in my local email.  I keep them for like 2 years or
> something then it deletes the old stuff.  I'm not sure if you will
> laugh your head off or cry tho. 
>
> Dale
>
> :-)  :-) 


What the heck.  I went back and found it.  It only took a few minutes. 
The rest of this message is the email where he has his script.  I'll do
my usual sign off at the bottom, rest is his post.   For those who have
already seen it, you might want to skip past the rest.  No need
torturing yourself again. 


> I use two scripts for all emerge use, the goal is to run one command and
> then walk away:
>
> Standard general update script:
> ###
> tortoise ~ # cat sysupdate
>
> #they must have moved or removed the logs, might have to track them down
> again...
> #rm /var/log/emerge*
>
> # cache /usr/portage 
> echo "caching /usr/portage.  This will take a long time."
> time ls -R /usr/portage > /dev/null
>
> emerge --sync
> layman --sync ALL
>
> emerge --update --verbose portage
> emerge --update --newuse --deep --with-bdeps=y system --keep-going
> emerge --update --newuse --deep --with-bdeps=y world --keep-going
>
> rm -f /var/cache/revdep-rebuild/*.rr
> revdep-rebuild
> emerge --skipfirst --resume
> emerge --skipfirst --resume
> etc-update
> eclean-dist
> 
>
> The eclean line was added just a few days ago from this thread...
>
> This one is intended to be a nice gentle update script.
> It caches the portage tree, then syncs everything, then updates
> everything starting with critical system packages, then all world
> packages...
>
> Then it cleans stuff up, it jcakhammers the revdep-rebuild but not too
> hard
>
>
> This next script is what I use when emerge starts giving me shit:
>
> ##
> tortoise ~ # cat keepgoing
> emerge --update --newuse --deep --with-bdeps=y system
> emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
> emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
> emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
>
> emerge --update --newuse --deep --with-bdeps=y world
> emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
> emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
> emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
> emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
> emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
> emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
> emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
> emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
> emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
> emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
>
> rm /var/cache/revdep-rebuild/*.rr
> revdep-rebuild
> emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
> emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
> emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
> emerge --skipfirst --resume --nodeps
>
> etc-update
> ###
>
> It's basically the same as the working section of the above but instead
> of letting emerge do it's thing, it jackhammers that bitch as hard as
> possible to get as much updated as possible, but it requires emerge to
> do something and not error out for no good reason... I expect prune and
> depclean to be useless but I kinda need update to basically work every
> time. =\
> Whatever fails on this script, I just live with until next week/month.
>
> ###
> tortoise ~ # ./pretendupdate
>
> These are the packages that would be merged, 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[Dale]

Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Sat, 28 May 2016 12:06:20 -0500, Dale wrote:
>
>> What is also a surprise, Alan hasn't figured out that his script is the
>> problem.
> I believe that there are actually two scripts at play here. One that does
> its best to defeat portage's attempts to keep a system clean and
> consistent and another that posts abusive rants to the list on behalf of
> the first.
>
>

I like how it blames portage instead of the real problem.  Yea, we run
into a occasional bump in the road on this list but overall, emerge does
one heck of a job sorting this mess out.  If it can find a path to
complete a upgrade, it gets there even if it has to spin the wheel a
little longer.  Poor Alan tho, he just keeps shooting himself in the
foot.   I'm saving my band-aids for someone who has at least learned to
use a better method.  Heck, if you or the smart Alan tells me I am doing
a upgrade wrong, I listen.  Thing is, even I know his script is a
disaster without even running it.  And I don't even try to claim to be a
expert on scripts or that I can eve write one.  lol   I just know his
creates a mess and every once in a while, he posts so that we know we
are right. 

It does serve as a good source of giggles tho.  ROFL

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[Dale]

Gregory Woodbury wrote:
> Has Alan ever posted his "jackhammer" script for some experts to look at?
>
> I get by really well with a small script that reads the eix outputs,
> finds the "[U]"
> tagged packages, and then runs "emerge -u1" on that list.
>
> Doing anything more than that will be a cause of pain and suffering.
>
> If a package needs patches for something special, it is better to make
> a local 
> repository with modified ebuilds and distfiles, rather than try to
> force the gentoo repo 
> into your own mess. I do this for a few tthings that Gentoo doesn't
> ship. Portage
> is actuallly quite flexible underneath, itt just takes a bit of learning.
>
> -- 
> G.Wolfe Woodbury
> redwo...@gmail.com 


He did a while back.  Some very experienced Gentoo users here explained
to him that his script was the problem.  From memory which isn't all
that good, it syncs the tree which is fine.  After that, it gets bad.  I
think it did the updates and then repeated that several times within the
script.  That is done without him looking to see if anything needs to be
changed, USE flags etc, or if something shouldn't be updated at all. 
I'm pretty sure that it then deletes all the logs of what was done,
which means anything broken is broke and no record of what or even why. 

Yes, some things can be done with a script.  However, there needs to be
a point in there where the user, the real brain of what is wanted, looks
at the list of what will be updated.  Only a human can look and see if
there is USE flag changes or other issues that need a config file to be
edited.   Alan skips all that. 

If you want, I can go dig it out and post it.  I should have a copy of
the script in my local email.  I keep them for like 2 years or something
then it deletes the old stuff.  I'm not sure if you will laugh your head
off or cry tho. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[Alec Ten Harmsel]

On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 02:05:11PM -0400, Gregory Woodbury wrote:
> Has Alan ever posted his "jackhammer" script for some experts to look at?

Yes. You can probably find it on gmane. It basically consists of running
emerge with --keep-going and --ignore-failures multiple times, running
some depcleans, running revdep-rebuild a few times, and probably doing
all of this a few times.

> I get by really well with a small script that reads the eix outputs, finds
> the "[U]"
> tagged packages, and then runs "emerge -u1" on that list.

That sounds cool. `emerge -uDN --with-bdeps=y @world' should do
approximately the same thing, though.

Alec

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[Neil Bothwick]

On Sat, 28 May 2016 12:06:20 -0500, Dale wrote:

> What is also a surprise, Alan hasn't figured out that his script is the
> problem.

I believe that there are actually two scripts at play here. One that does
its best to defeat portage's attempts to keep a system clean and
consistent and another that posts abusive rants to the list on behalf of
the first.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

LISP: Lots of Infuriating & Silly Parentheses


pgp21htuZyK2d.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[Neil Bothwick]

On Sat, 28 May 2016 14:05:11 -0400, Gregory Woodbury wrote:

> Has Alan ever posted his "jackhammer" script for some experts to look
> at?

Yes, some are still recovering from the experience of seeing what it does!


-- 
Neil Bothwick

If a stealth bomber crashes in a forest, will it make a sound?


pgp6mnvRB28sl.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[Gregory Woodbury]

Has Alan ever posted his "jackhammer" script for some experts to look at?

I get by really well with a small script that reads the eix outputs, finds
the "[U]"
tagged packages, and then runs "emerge -u1" on that list.

Doing anything more than that will be a cause of pain and suffering.

If a package needs patches for something special, it is better to make a
local
repository with modified ebuilds and distfiles, rather than try to force
the gentoo repo
into your own mess. I do this for a few tthings that Gentoo doesn't ship.
Portage
is actuallly quite flexible underneath, itt just takes a bit of learning.

-- 
G.Wolfe Woodbury
redwo...@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] How to be a penguin.

[Dale]

»Q« wrote:
> On Sat, 28 May 2016 12:05:02 -0400
> Alan Grimes  wrote:
>
>> I feel that my jackhammer script has been deliberately defeated.
> IMO, that's overly pessimistic.  The script seems to be defeating
> portage pretty consistently, and that's clearly the job it was designed
> for.
>
>> It's getting to the point that I can't remember a time when running
>> emerge has not been a week-long ordeal.
> I wouldn't be satisfied with the jackhammer script until it's capable
> of creating at least a month-long ordeal each time.  Then it will be
> ready to ship to all users.
>
> [Sorry, everybody, occasionally I just can't keep my fingers off the
> keys.]
>
>
>

Well, he has been told by just about everyone who bothers to reply that
his script is the problem not emerge.  It's amazing how so many of us
use emerge all the time and generally it does what it is supposed to do
but for this Alan, it does something different. 

What is also a surprise, Alan hasn't figured out that his script is the
problem.  One thing about a jackhammer, it will tear up whatever you put
it on.  His jackhammer script and methodology has sure done that for him. 

Me, I'm going to town and find a air filter for my neighbors tiller. 
That is something more productive.  ;-)

Dale

:-)  :-)