On Oct 4, 2013, at 7:45 AM, Frederick FN Noronha wrote thus to Prof Pinto: "Arrey, uncle! Mangaloreans are Goans too. Maybe 400 years removed. As for East Indians, I agree. They're only our colonial cousins." ----
A few random comments from me: a: I was happy when I read Prof Pinto's initial apology to Tino D'Sa. b: All of us are capable of making errors in thought, word and deed. c: When we slip-up, we should expect to be slammed. d: 'Cheapest' to accept the expected slams and move on. e: And while it is appropriate to defend oneself when wrongfully castigated, even a minimally-protracted defense of the indefensible is never a great idea, especially if one is, ab inicio, in the wrong. f: In that regard, I submit that Augusto's secondary posts wrt Mr. D'Sa were not only unnecessary but also quite counterproductive. g: I further submit that the proverbial egg-throwing (on Augusto's face) incident was self inflicted and self-perpetuated by him. h: We should be happy whenever Goans (or folks of Goan heritage) do well anywhere. BTW: Alban Couto is remembered fondly (even in these parts) by folks originally from Bihar. i: I have to read the good Valimiki's initial post on this matter again. My initial reading indicates that he may have been too hard on Augusto. Augusto often behaves like a patracar. Like the rest of us mortals, he too makes his errors, sometimes in a knee-jerk fashion. j: I disagree with Frederick Noronha that "Mangaloreans are Goans too". That statement, as written, is not true unless preceded by the words 'many'. It is not even applicable "blanket" to Catholic Mangaloreans. Roland Francis (RF) added much to this debate by his post. I concur with most of what he has written. I will make some observations wrt two of the paras in his post RF1: I submit that it was merely a flavor of the times, a desire to fit in. The same reason why the late Shiv Sena supremo would change from his ancestral Thakre to the English Thackeray. k: Just like Chowgule became Chougulo, Xenvi became Sinai, Kamat became Camotim, Kaisare became Coisoro etc etc while the Portuguese were in town and the "Tail returned to its original position" soon thereafter. And while some Goan families in British India eg Soares to Sawyer, Lourenco to Lawrence perhaps did the name change to "fit in", I can see why one family marketed Pickles with the name 'Ferns'. They were probably far ahead with Names and Marketing. Interesting to note that while the convenient Chougulo or Camotim etc changed overnight in post 1961, the Sawyers and Lawrences remained true to their name changes post 1947. RF2: The same as in modern India the father of my neighborhood's Goan beauty took on the moniker of Sankhwalker. The latter was the elite Catholic Goan desire to harken back to their elite Goan Hindu roots l: Yes, I have noticed that among some alleged-upper "castes". I say 'alleged' that because I absolutely and unequivocally abhor the caste system as the horrible (originally) colour based Apartheid curse on our people. I am happy to note (once again) that I never personally experienced it during my stay in Poona, my college days in Panjim, during my brief holidays in Velim ....nor after that in Nachinola or Aldona (two other villages where I have family). Needless to say, I am as proud of people who remind me (albeit indirectly) of their pre-conversion surnames as I am of the Indian men who gang-disrespect women. As a descendant from Carambolim (the former Granary of Goa), we became settlers in Velim after the Plague hit Old Goa. It is a village of which I, my wife and our children have fond memories (mainly monsoons - coinciding with their holidays out here in the West). I am proud to be a Catholic. I do not know whether my forbears were Hindu, Muslim Jew or Atheist. I do not care to know. I am happy to remain a Catholic. RF3: : In fact while the Brits left such name changes to the bearers' option in British India, the poor UP or Bihari indentured immigrant to Guyana or Trinidade was simply "converted" on official documents to Persaud from Prasad and Naraine from Narayan. m: In Jamaica, Ema and I had the pleasure of spending a good deal of time with these very nice and gracious people aka 'East Indians' aka "coolies". Most of them, I happened to meet during my stint at the wonderful Bustamante Childrens' Hospital in Kingston. (Oh what a lovely hospital and what a lovely set of colleagues and what a wonderful learning experience). It is sad to see how Indians from India treat these "east Indians" of the Caribbean. It is almost as the shameful caste system is still prevalent among these imports. One of the 'east indian' friends we made was a Mr. Dookie (?Sad) who sold fish from his little cart outside one of the supermarkets. He stated that he was on the last boat from India (which I believe was circa 1909). His description of India (as he knew it) is fascinating. I will jot it down on GN someday. Yes, most of them were indentured from poor areas of India ie Bihar and UP. Many surnames are just Bihari or Beeharie (probably from Bihar), Singh (probably from UP), Maharaj (some aka pundits and perform pooja) etc; Some of the more complex names were anglicized for the convenience of the Colonial Brits. For another type of convenience: a technique I am reliably informed of is wrt Catholic Mangaloreans who dropped their 'Portuguese Surnames" and changed them from (say) Fernandes to Prabhu and DeSouza to Kamat. The latter to avoid any self-perceived discrimination in the Medical College admission process. The same one can note in the Sri Lankans who changed surnames after the Bandaranaike process of Lankanisation quite similar to the Parrikar Swadeshification (or the more recent Catholics are Cultural Hindus). The only Catholics, Mr. Parrikar, who are cultural Hindus are the ones who practice the Hindu Caste system and who of late, have been displaying their "Brahmin" surnames of antes. Not surprising that very few of these folks displayed their 'antes-surnames' before 1961. Importantly, most of those who display these surnames now ....were quite Portuguese antes 1961. jc