Discussion on the BCEL list the other day seemed to agree that ASM is
the way to go. BCEL has some few features it does not, but they're all
quite non-mainstream.
Hen
On 5/13/05, Rob Gonzalez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The bytecode verifier is not a particularly difficult thing to
implement,
But !
if u people dont mind (dont take me splitter again ;) ) then i would say
while considering Classpath for library we should design in such a way that
if some one want to replace with its own (his own wish thats what OSS is )
then he can do it easily. (and i hope follwowing the TCK it
On 5/16/05, Ahmed Saad [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
hi all... i'm a computer science student located in cairo, egypt with a
modest experience in c/c++ (wrote some bsd-style sockets and posix stuff)
and designing web applications with java/php i've just read about
harmony yesterday on slashdot
On May 13, 2005, at 6:27 AM, Steven Martin wrote:
No obviously have stacktrace. Sun's implementation uses native calls
instead of 100% Java.
I think we're going to be making native calls at some point. How
else do you get to resources from the OS?
geir
On 5/12/05, Gerry Steele [EMAIL
On May 12, 2005, at 7:26 PM, Nick Lothian wrote:
In the only-partially-dreaming wishlist category:
It would be really nice if (and make sense for) Sun open sourced
Swing.
That would:
a) Help classpath along a lot
b) Be a competitive move on Sun's part against IBM's SWT.
This was one of my
Any other comments?
Care to get started, Nick? As Jon used to say Thanks for volunteering
One of the things we have to still discuss (and I'll be posting in a
sec) is some enhancement to our regular IP processes, as we want to
be *very* sure that we maintain the highest level possible of IP
CPL-ed code is fine for us to include and distribute (not host)
geir
On May 13, 2005, at 1:45 PM, Patrice Le Vexier wrote:
hi everybody,
the same for kaffe, no ?
And what about the CPL license of jykesRVM ?
patrice
-Message d'origine-
De : Davanum Srinivas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Envoyé
On May 13, 2005, at 8:11 AM, Bob wrote:
This project should provide a tool that generates a native
executable
program that just starts a new VM and provides all arguments and
classespath
etc... without suffering with batch and shell files. That's
similar to a
feature in Borland's JBuilder.
On May 13, 2005, at 1:23 AM, Steve Blackburn wrote:
I am going to stick my neck out and make a few concrete suggestions
for how the Harmony VM might be developed.
A few motivating goals:
o Focus on modular, interchangeable components
- exploit existing compilers, memory managers etc
-
On May 14, 2005, at 9:35 PM, Sven de Marothy wrote:
- Harmonization of developer-demands. Classpath requires clean-room
status
(i.e. hasn't seen Sun's code) and FSF assignment (with rights
granted back).
Harmony will require some form of clean-roomness and an Apache
licensing agreement.
On May 14, 2005, at 7:39 PM, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
Leo
We can use the con call next week as the forum.
Yes please - we have an ongoing conversation with the FSF on
licensing issues, and we can just add this to the list.
Folks,
Just to summarize *Ideally* what we would like, here's a list:
-
On May 13, 2005, at 11:54 PM, Rob Gonzalez wrote:
The bytecode verifier is not a particularly difficult thing to
implement, just an important one to get correct ;)
Regarding BCEL's bytecode verifier implementation: it is not 100%
compatible with Sun's as it is more strict, but the code is nice and
You can get an idea of the status of the project by checking the
Classpath::Status section in the home page
(http://www.gnu.org/software/classpath/).
Regarding the work for Java 5.0, you can check the following page:
LLVM looks cool, but comes with a wholebunchastuff under different
licenses embedded in it. A casual inspection suggests we can probably
work around them, but a closer inspection would be required.
They all looked to be the same with additional copyrights, ie BSD-ish,
with the exception of a
Stu == Stu Statman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Stu Would it be possible for someone from the GNU Classpath community ...
Stu if any are on this list ... to give an overview of the status of GNU
Stu Classpath? How complete is it now? How much work do they anticipate it
Stu being to get to 1.5?
You
On May 16, 2005, at 8:50 AM, S. Meslin-Weber wrote:
Hi Geir,
On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 06:47:40AM -0400, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
I have no intention of forking GNU Classpath. Even if we wanted to,
we couldn't because of the license.
Just to be clear on this point, the license for GNU Classpath
On May 16, 2005, at 12:42 PM, Mark Brooks wrote:
Why?
Because knowing what tools we are going to use is the logical first
step.
Heh! Next time, please give a bit more context on what the Why is
about :)
I was responding to :
I lack the requisite experience to take the lead on this. However,
On May 16, 2005, at 12:18 PM, Stu Statman wrote:
What is the licensing goal, by the way? Dual licensing under GPL
+Exception and Apache? Or is GPL+Exception good enough?
We are looking at what the GPL+Exception actually means in another
effort that we have going on between the FSF and the ASF
On May 16, 2005, at 11:51 AM, Ben Laurie wrote:
I'm pretty sure we want a framework in C/C++, whatever components
are developed in.
+1
Question to the floor: if it had to be one of C and C++, which
would you prefer?
C++
Oog. grunt Thog like to bang rocks, but Thog also like inheritance,
ABCs
welcome :)
On May 16, 2005, at 11:53 AM, Ahmed Saad wrote:
hi all... i'm a computer science student located in cairo, egypt
with a
modest experience in c/c++ (wrote some bsd-style sockets and posix
stuff)
and designing web applications with java/php i've just read about
harmony yesterday
As harmony is just getting started, there is a great deal of good
suggestions, questions and offers for help. Ever since the Slashdot
announcement I personally think that the number of people whom have
joined and offered their services has clearly gone up and to promote
organization I'm proposing
On Mon, 2005-05-16 at 09:18 -0700, Stu Statman wrote:
Would it be possible for someone from the GNU Classpath community ... if
any are on this list ... to give an overview of the status of GNU
Classpath? How complete is it now? How much work do they anticipate it
being to get to 1.5?
Sure.
This could even help in migrating apps across machines in a grid-like
environment dynamically depending on the availability of resources.
If this can be implemented it would be great.
Regards
~s
-Original Message-
From: Torsten Curdt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
Is one maintained better than the other? I'd like to choose one
(loosely) so we can start working with it. Apache Tomcat ships with
it, and I've used it elsewhere for having a shipping compiler for the
same reason - for JSP compilation...
The Eclipse compiler is
I'm wondering, some parts of the JDK seens to be product features and not a
standard. For examples, the sound system should use arts, esd or alsa (I
believe Sun support the last 2). The printing system should support cups,
lprng or both? The same goes for the crypto algorithms on the pack.
Steve Blackburn wrote:
A quick recap on key points from my original post (below):
. Focus on componentization
. Use one or two existing VMs to bootstrap and drive effort to componentize
. Concurrently develop new cores
As far as I can tell the goal of componentization is widely accepted.
I view
Simon Chappell wrote:
On 5/16/05, Ben Laurie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
*snip*
Question to the floor: if it had to be one of C and C++, which would you
prefer?
Thanks Ben, that is a very productive question.
--
Stefano.
Hello Nick,
On Tue, May 17, 2005 at 11:23:16AM +0930, Nick Lothian wrote:
Nice set of diagrams.
Thanks - they tend to visualize long segments of text in a simpler way.
I certainly wouldn't agree that Harmony should:
aim[s] at creating a cleanroom, open source implementation of the Java
Royce Ausburn wrote:
In my experience, delaying the 'modular design' of a system causes more
work.
More coding work? sure thing.
If you factor into work the amount of email and time and emotional
energy you will have to consume to get to that modular design over a
mail list with 100 people,
On Tue, 2005-05-17 at 10:58 +0930, Nick Lothian wrote:
One specific question that I haven't seen addressed elsewhere:
Currently the FAQ for classpath says:
If you are going to contribute source code to GNU Classpath we must
make sure that you have not studied the source code of the JDK/JRE
Hi,
I also prefer C which is simpler to use and also As Nicolas said has
smaller memory footprint.
Ozgur Akan
Simon Chappell wrote:
On 5/16/05, Ben Laurie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
*snip*
Question to the floor: if it had to be one of C and C++, which would you
prefer?
C.
C++ was a
2005/5/17, Bryce Leo [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
What do you think?
Good enough for me... I'll use it!
Bye!
Raffaele
On May 16, 2005, at 9:28 PM, Nick Lothian wrote:
One specific question that I haven't seen addressed elsewhere:
Currently the FAQ for classpath says:
If you are going to contribute source code to GNU Classpath we must
make sure that you have not studied the source code of the JDK/JRE or
decompiled
On May 16, 2005, at 3:59 PM, usman bashir wrote:
But !
if u people dont mind (dont take me splitter again ;) ) then i
would say
while considering Classpath for library we should design in such a
way that
if some one want to replace with its own (his own wish thats what
OSS is )
then he can
We tend to do this naturally - we put something in the subject line
to distinguish. Maybe we'll come up w/ some patterns.
One thing to consider is when we get going with things, to split off
an architecture list if the volume gets too much. But for now, it's
light enough to keep it all
Now don't go too crazy for my suggesting this, but why not pascal? If
we're considering C as it is this really isn't a terrible suggestion.
I know it's fallen out of favor with most of you guys but it compiles
quickly and supports a good number of operating systems and types of
hardware, like arm
Oog. grunt Thog like to bang rocks, but Thog also like inheritance, ABCs
and generics.
If by generics you mean STL, it is my understanding that creates
cross-platform problems, which is why many cross-platform C++ projects don't
use it.
We do not lack good choices for a JVM. Steve Blackburn has presented a
proposal to use Jikes RVM, and there has been discussion of Kaffe and GCJ
as well.
And and least one person one this list has offered a VM they have written,
and to change the license to the Apache license.
I can't think of a single reason why C should be preferred over C++.
C can simply be viewed as a subset of C++
Not anymore, really. The current ISO standards for C and C++ have
eliminated the C++ is only a superset aspect. They really are different
languages.
Also, you CAN write C in an
Jónas Tryggvi Jóhannsson wrote:
Im however very fond of the idea of writing the JVM in Java. Im
beginning to look into the JikesRVM and I really like the idea,
especially as it is the language that everyone on this list is
familiar with. It would also maximize the quality of the tools that we
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
Christian Damsgaard wrote:
I brought up this idea with Lars Bak (HotSpot architect at Sun back
then) at a conference some years back when Sun introduced the HotSpot
VM. The argument back then was that a program mays not execute in the
same pattern every time and the
Hi Rodrigo,
I believe the focus should be on deciding if Harmony will star from
other JVM or not.
I agree entirely that this is an important issue, and a lot of people
are working hard right now to see if this can happen. Donating an
entire JVM to apache is not a trivial issue, so we will need
Nether support apt, AFAIK, which seens to be an easier task to do with the
Eclipse compiler.
Rodrigo
On 5/16/05, Nick Lothian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Berlin == Berlin Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Berlin The compiler seems to be a non-issue at this time
with a focus
Berlin on
Jónas Tryggvi Jóhannsson wrote:
Question to the floor: if it had to be one of C and C++, which would
you prefer?
I can't think of a single reason why C should be preferred over C++.
C can simply be viewed as a subset of C++, and as Java users we all
This might be true for newbies but anyone who
My original intention of having a snapshot was not so much as to have a quick
restart but to be able to migrate apps a la distributed JVM efforts
(http://djvm.anu.edu.au/) as Steve has mentioned in this thread earlier.
As you say I guess persistence along with machine specific JIT code might be
On May 16, 2005, at 3:58 PM, Rodrigo Kumpera wrote:
Making Harmony modular enouth to be kind of a JVM framework cannot be
done before having a working JVM. There is a lot of literature about
how frameworks should emerge from continuous design and development.
There's been a lot of work in this
On Tue, 2005-05-17 at 11:46 -0300, Rodrigo Kumpera wrote:
I'm wondering, some parts of the JDK seens to be product features and not a
standard. For examples, the sound system should use arts, esd or alsa (I
believe Sun support the last 2). The printing system should support cups,
lprng or
http://www.devx.com/Java/Article/28125?trk=DXRSS_JAVA
Looks like Doc java is pretty upset...
On Mon, 2005-05-16 at 17:34 +0200, Leo Simons wrote:
Hi all,
Hi Leo...
For now, you can assume:
* we *can* use GNU Classpath as long as we do not publish any releases, ie
at least for the next six months;
* we *may* stop using GNU Classpath at some point in the future;
So, for all
Maybe this pluggable layer that is not well defined. I think that having
this as a link time thing is more than enouth. It doesn´t mean that only one
GC algorithm or JITer will be available at runtime, but all the options
should be defined when building the JVM.
Refactoring a system to have a
Do we need the extra features of C++ for the low-level stuff that
Harmony needs to do? Java can provide the OO wrappers around things,
we don't need Java wrappers around C++ classes around C functions..
I don't think there's enough gain in using C++ to warrant the extra
complexity in its use.
C++, just C++, is a recipe for trouble. Most projects that use it define a
subset to make development a less painfull talk. Usually operator
overloading, templates and virtual inheritance are discarded.
Rodrigo
On 5/17/05, Ben Laurie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Jónas Tryggvi Jóhannsson wrote:
Hi,
I am sure that the code donated could be of use somewhere in the harmony
effort. Don't get too discouraged if no one jumps on it right away
though. The biggest need for harmony is not so much the code that you
have produced but the code that you will produce in the future.
At the start
I agree. Perhaps though it might be helpful to split into a legal
and technical list shortly?
Cheer
Stuart
On 17 May 2005, at 16:55, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
We tend to do this naturally - we put something in the subject line
to distinguish. Maybe we'll come up w/ some patterns.
One thing
If C/C++ is going to be used, the reference compiler is gcc. I don´t think
the pascal frontend of gcc is up to the others.
Rodrigo
On 5/17/05, Bryce Leo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Now don't go too crazy for my suggesting this, but why not pascal? If
we're considering C as it is this really
A quick look at APR reveal that it doesn´t provide all OS abstraction that a
JVM needs. There are no functions to mark pages as executable, access to
scalable IO facilities (IOCP, epoll, kqueue, etc...) or workarounds for
small diferences on syscalls or libC implementation.
I think Harmony
Now don't go too crazy for my suggesting this, but why not pascal?
Which dialect? ISO or GPC? Free Pascal or Delphi? (and if Delphi, which
version) etc..
Ada95 is superior for most purposes to Pascal, is more standardized (there
is only one standard) and is also widely available. It also
I am translating the proposal to Turkish. Whom shall I sent this and in
which format ?
thanks,
aiQa
just a note... it appears that Ant (and thus Maven, I
assume) can already use the Eclipse JDT compiler when
properly configured. If by chance one of these
(Apache) projects is used for builds, how much value
is there in creating another point of entry?
-Matt
--- Davanum Srinivas [EMAIL
nice to see u here sundar :)
On 5/17/05, Subramanian, Sundar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
My original intention of having a snapshot was not so much as to have a quick
restart but to be able to migrate apps a la distributed JVM efforts
(http://djvm.anu.edu.au/) as Steve has mentioned in this
On May 17, 2005, at 1:54 PM, Bryce Leo wrote:
Now don't go too crazy for my suggesting this, but why not pascal?
Wow. I've never had such a strong urge to vote someone off the
island :)
geir
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
The clear need that Magnusson cites is anything but clear to Gosling, who
says Sun has received negative response from the enterprise development
community regarding the idea of open-source Java.
welcome to the matrix, guys ;)
On 5/17/05, Tomer Barletz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
-Original Message-
From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 3:22 PM
To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Developing Harmony
On May 16, 2005, at 11:51 AM, Ben Laurie wrote:
I'm pretty sure we want a framework in C/C++, whatever
On the Pluto project (which has similar TCK requirements) the NDA hasn't
really been a big issue. Some committers have signed and have access to
it and some don't. We have our own set of test cases written based on
the spec that committers use to verify their commits.
We just make sure someone
C++, just C++, is a recipe for trouble. Most projects that use it define a
subset to make development a less painfull talk. Usually operator
overloading, templates and virtual inheritance are discarded.
Rodrigo
Agreed. If the decision is to go with C++, it will need to be a subset of
C++ for
Steve Blackburn wrote:
However, it is not the either/or situtation you paint above. I think
it may make most sense to work on a preexisting donated VM or VMs
while *concurrently* developing a new VM core or cores from scratch.
This approach has a number of advantages, including maximizing our
Rodrigo Kumpera wrote:
A quick look at APR reveal that it doesn´t provide all OS abstraction that a
JVM needs. There are no functions to mark pages as executable,
This is probably not there, but could be added to APR if people were
interested and willing to write the code.
access to
scalable
Newbie question: What is to stop us from caching JITed code? .NET/
mono does this as far as I know?
We can do it even in the forthcoming Harmony runtime.
On the other hand, an apparent drawback is disk
consumption. Generally, JITted native code takes 3 times or more as
much as bytecode takes.
how much value is there in creating another point of entry?
it's not just for devs who will be compiling the class library in harmony.
it's (or that's what i think) intended to be the javac of Hamroy
On 5/18/05, Matt Benson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
just a note... it appears that Ant (and
Carlos Fernandez Sanz wrote:
Jónas Tryggvi Jóhannsson wrote:
Question to the floor: if it had to be one of C and C++, which would
you prefer?
I can't think of a single reason why C should be preferred over C++.
C can simply be viewed as a subset of C++, and as Java users we all
This might be true
Hey forgive the naive question guys, but does the Java serialization
spec specify things to a level of detail that will allow objects
serialized on one JVM to be unserialized by a different JVM? That is,
will one be able to share objects between Harmony and the Sun JVM,
or others?
Just curious,
Haven't heard anybody mention this yet:
http://www.mozilla.org/projects/ef
Is there anything in EF that could be of use to us? I know the project
has been dormant for quite some time, but I wonder if there is any code,
or at least ideas, that would be beneficial to us?
Not sure about the
On Tue, May 17, 2005 at 05:56:36PM -0300, Rodrigo Kumpera wrote:
A quick look at APR reveal that it doesn?t provide all OS abstraction that a
JVM needs. There are no functions to mark pages as executable, access to
scalable IO facilities (IOCP, epoll, kqueue, etc...) or workarounds for
For those that want meaningful subjects lines, here it is and for
those that are waiting for an architecture discussion - here it is.
Here's the first of the offered VMs. (I've privately mailed Tom van
Dijck about mudGE so we can look at something else)
I've downloaded and will begin
Add it to the wiki :)
http://wiki.apache.org/harmony/
thanks
On May 17, 2005, at 8:19 AM, Ozgur Akan wrote:
I am translating the proposal to Turkish. Whom shall I sent this
and in which format ?
thanks,
aiQa
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
We've been talking about two threads of discussion, one working with
a C/C++ based VM, one w/ Java.
Here's a Java one for discussion (just want to focus threads...)
geir
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
weldon! Been waiting! welcome!
geir
On May 17, 2005, at 7:25 PM, Weldon Washburn wrote:
-Original Message-
From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 3:22 PM
To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Developing Harmony
On May 16, 2005, at 11:51
-Original Message-
From: Weldon Washburn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tue May 17 23:53:28 2005
To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject:Re: Developing Harmony
-Original Message-
From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, May 16,
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