Just found this in a gmail adtext link, it's quite interesting (and
convincing): http://www.janestcapital.com/yaron_minsky-cufp_2006.pdf
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On 7/17/07, Thomas Conway [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 7/18/07, Hugh Perkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Am I the only person who finds it interesting/worrying that there are few to
no people in the group who are ex-C# programmers. I mean, you could argue
that C# programmers are simply too
On 7/18/07, Jon Harrop [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Tuesday 17 July 2007 23:26:08 Hugh Perkins wrote:
Am I the only person who finds it interesting/worrying that there are few
to no people in the group who are ex-C# programmers. I mean, you could
argue that C# programmers are simply too
On 7/18/07, Martin Coxall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 7/18/07, Jon Harrop [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Tuesday 17 July 2007 23:26:08 Hugh Perkins wrote:
Am I the only person who finds it interesting/worrying that there are few
to no people in the group who are ex-C# programmers. I mean, you
Bryan Burgers wrote:
I heard that Fermat didn't even actually have a proof.
That's unsubstantiated conjecture! :-P
Oh, sure, it took over 300 years to arrive at the modern-day proof,
which runs to over 400 pages of cutting-edge mathematics spanning
multiple very modern disiplins, and is so
And this is where I think Haskell has it all over C++, Java, and the
rest. Haskell is easy to learn at a simple level, and hard to learn at
the expert level, but once learned is very powerful and has excellent
payoffs in terms of productivity. With C++ or Java, the expertise is
somewhat easier to
On 7/17/07, Martin Coxall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Me too, which is why I find your statement that expertise in C++ is
easy to acquire. Seeing some of my colleagues' code is enough to tell
me that this is most definitely not the case.
You're quite right. That was careless on my part. Though
On Tue, Jul 17, 2007 at 19:43:51 +1000, Thomas Conway wrote:
On 7/17/07, Martin Coxall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Me too, which is why I find your statement that expertise in C++ is
easy to acquire. Seeing some of my colleagues' code is enough to tell
me that this is most definitely not the case.
On 7/17/07, Magnus Therning [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Tue, Jul 17, 2007 at 19:43:51 +1000, Thomas Conway wrote:
On 7/17/07, Martin Coxall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Me too, which is why I find your statement that expertise in C++ is
easy to acquire. Seeing some of my colleagues' code is enough
On 7/17/07, Thomas Conway [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
And this is where I think Haskell has it all over C++, Java, and the
rest. Haskell is easy to learn at a simple level, and hard to learn at
the expert level, but once learned is very powerful and has excellent
payoffs in terms of productivity.
On 7/18/07, Hugh Perkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Am I the only person who finds it interesting/worrying that there are few to
no people in the group who are ex-C# programmers. I mean, you could argue
that C# programmers are simply too stupid to do Haskell, but ... you know,
there is another
On Tuesday 17 July 2007 23:26:08 Hugh Perkins wrote:
Am I the only person who finds it interesting/worrying that there are few
to no people in the group who are ex-C# programmers. I mean, you could
argue that C# programmers are simply too stupid to do Haskell, but ... you
know, there is
On Wed, 2007-07-18 at 00:26 +0200, Hugh Perkins wrote:
On 7/17/07, Thomas Conway [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
And this is where I think Haskell has it all over C++, Java,
and the
rest. Haskell is easy to learn at a simple level, and hard to
learn at
the
Donald Bruce Stewart wrote:
zednenem:
On 7/15/07, Derek Elkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
There is no version of bytestrings without stream fusion and there never
was. Bytestrings have no compiler support, it is just a library.
I'm not sure that's correct. Stream fusion is a
Alex Queiroz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
This is so much true. It has the effect of disguising Haskell as
a PhD-only language.
And what would be wrong with Haskell being a PhD-only language, if it
were true?
OK, so I'm not genuinely suggesting that you must possess or be studying
for a PhD,
Hallo,
On 7/16/07, Malcolm Wallace [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
OK, so I'm not genuinely suggesting that you must possess or be studying
for a PhD, to grok Haskell. But I find nothing alarming about the
suggestion that one needs a fairly high level of intelligence, and some
training, in order to
On 7/16/07, Malcolm Wallace [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
After all, we would expect the same attributes (intelligence and
training) from a neurosurgeon, a nuclear scientist, or someone who
calculates how to land a person on the moon. Programming computers may
not seem very skilled to most people,
On Monday 16 July 2007, Hugh Perkins wrote:
On 7/16/07, Malcolm Wallace [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
After all, we would expect the same attributes (intelligence and
training) from a neurosurgeon, a nuclear scientist, or someone who
calculates how to land a person on the moon. Programming
On 7/16/07, Malcolm Wallace [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
OK, so I'm not genuinely suggesting that you must possess or be studying
for a PhD, to grok Haskell. But I find nothing alarming about the
suggestion that one needs a fairly high level of intelligence, and some
training, in order to be able
On Sat, Jul 14, 2007 at 11:24:36AM +0800, Michael T. Richter wrote:
I've seen this pattern so often in communities. I've also seen it in
management (the supervisor/manager who can do the job better than his
underlings -- so he does) or in teaching (the popular teacher gets a
heavier
On Sun, Jul 15, 2007 at 07:05:53PM +1000, Donald Bruce Stewart wrote:
So how would you think we can approve? We have to help in more specific
ways, and listen more carefully to what people are asking?
I usually do this when I want a newcomer to join my community (for
instance my research
On Sun, 2007-15-07 at 10:56 +0200, Andrea Rossato wrote:
I've seen this pattern so often in communities.
I may be wrong, but I think you do not get the specificity of the
Haskell community, that is quite peculiar, I'd say.
I think you're wrong. ;) The specifics of motivation and style
On Jul 15, 2007, at 0:47 , Jonathan Cast wrote:
Usenet is a giant network of NNTP servers (and UUCP servers before
that...)
that ISPs (and various Unix sites before that) maintained at one
time (most
seem to have given up on it now), with thousands of general-purpose
newsgroups that at one
Andrea Rossato wrote:
I may be wrong, but I think you do not get the specificity of the
Haskell community, that is quite peculiar, I'd say.
Interesting.
I've just read your message three times, and you argue eloquently, and
coherently. But I feel a bit of a disconnection. I don't recognise
Hallo,
On 7/14/07, Michael T. Richter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
While it is understandable, given the intense interest most grognards of any language
have in playing with the language, for people to enjoy conversations that go into the
ever-more-esoteric, it is decidedly not helpful to the
This is a bit tangental, but... One problem I sometimes have is not
knowing the status of things. E.g., you read about Associated Types, and
then you go hey, is this implemented now? is it being implemented soon?
etc.
(Don't all rush in and tell me about ATs - I'm only picking it as an
On Sun, 2007-07-15 at 17:49 +0100, Andrew Coppin wrote:
This is a bit tangental, but... One problem I sometimes have is not
knowing the status of things. E.g., you read about Associated Types, and
then you go hey, is this implemented now? is it being implemented soon?
etc.
(Don't all
Derek Elkins wrote:
On Sun, 2007-07-15 at 17:49 +0100, Andrew Coppin wrote:
This is a bit tangental, but... One problem I sometimes have is not
knowing the status of things. E.g., you read about Associated Types, and
then you go hey, is this implemented now? is it being implemented soon?
On Sun, 2007-07-15 at 18:47 +0100, Andrew Coppin wrote:
Derek Elkins wrote:
On Sun, 2007-07-15 at 17:49 +0100, Andrew Coppin wrote:
This is a bit tangental, but... One problem I sometimes have is not
knowing the status of things. E.g., you read about Associated Types, and
then you
Derek Elkins wrote:
On Sun, 2007-07-15 at 18:47 +0100, Andrew Coppin wrote:
I could have sworn I heard somewhere that the debugger would be in GHC
6.6.1... but, apparently, I am mistaken. I have no idea which version it
*is* going to be in... (Presumably the next one.)
On the very
This is a bit tangental, but... One problem I sometimes have is not
knowing the status of things. E.g., you read about Associated Types, and
then you go hey, is this implemented now? is it being implemented soon?
etc.
(Don't all rush in and tell me about ATs - I'm only picking it as an
Claus Reinke wrote:
Maybe I'm looking wrong, but it often isn't obvious to me how to
figure out the answer to the question does all this cool stuff work
yet? I'm not really sure what we could change to fix that though...
the Haskell Community Activity Reports were created in part to
answer
On 7/15/07, Derek Elkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
There is no version of bytestrings without stream fusion and there never
was. Bytestrings have no compiler support, it is just a library.
I'm not sure that's correct. Stream fusion is a particular fusion
technique that wasn't introduced until
zednenem:
On 7/15/07, Derek Elkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
There is no version of bytestrings without stream fusion and there never
was. Bytestrings have no compiler support, it is just a library.
I'm not sure that's correct. Stream fusion is a particular fusion
technique that wasn't
Anthony Chaumas-Pellet wrote:
From: Andrew Coppin [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Really? Most web servers will accept a connection from anybody. (Unless
it's *intended* to be an Intranet.) I'm not quite sure why somebody
would configure their NNTP server differently...
The scale of an NNTP
On Saturday 14 July 2007, Andrew Coppin wrote:
Anthony Chaumas-Pellet wrote:
From: Andrew Coppin [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Really? Most web servers will accept a connection from anybody. (Unless
it's *intended* to be an Intranet.) I'm not quite sure why somebody
would configure their NNTP
Jim Burton wrote:
Very timely! It's sad that haskell-cafe has so much noise now.
I disagree with that characterisation. I don't mean to be pedantic, but
I don't think haskell-cafe has lots of noise. I think it has lots of
signal! Quite different.
We don't have a problem (in my perception,
As we sit here riding the Haskell wave:
http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~dons/tmp/cafe.png
with nearly 2000 (!) people reading haskell-cafe@, perhaps its time to
think some more about how to build and maintain this lovely Haskell
community we have.
my replies to some of the issues raised in
On Fri, 13 Jul 2007, Simon Peyton-Jones wrote:
We need at least one forum in which it's acceptable to ask anything, no
matter how naive, and get polite replies. (RTFM isn't polite; but The
answer is supposed to be documented here (\url); let us know if that
doesn't answer your qn is
claus.reinke:
personally, i tend to be more willing to answer questions
on the list than to fiddle with wiki markup and conventions,
but there is no reason why people who are happier with
wiki editing cannot extract content from list answers to the
wiki,
Hi
I tried an experiment this week of just taking someone's post (Conor's idiom
brackets), and putting directly on the wiki first, then letting the
author know that's happened.
How do people feel about allowing posts in -cafe to be placed on the
wiki, without extensive prior negotiation? What
On Fri, 13 Jul 2007, Donald Bruce Stewart wrote:
How do people feel about allowing posts in -cafe to be placed on the
wiki, without extensive prior negotiation? What copyright do -cafe@
posts have?
Currently, snagging the whole post for non-archive purposes isn't
necessarily legit.
If
* Malcolm Wallace wrote:
If anything, Usenet is even worse than mailing lists for volume,
especially of spam. Also, very few sites maintain their nntp servers
adequately these days - e.g. comp.lang.haskell has never made it to
where I work.
I beg to differ. Of course, I'm an Usenet admin
| Very timely! It's sad that haskell-cafe has so much noise now.
|
| I disagree with that characterisation. I don't mean to be pedantic, but
| I don't think haskell-cafe has lots of noise. I think it has lots of
| signal! Quite different.
|
| We don't have a problem (in my perception, at least)
Jules Bean wrote:
Jim Burton wrote:
Very timely! It's sad that haskell-cafe has so much noise now.
I disagree with that characterisation. I don't mean to be pedantic, but
I don't think haskell-cafe has lots of noise. I think it has lots of
signal! Quite different.
I think you're
Malcolm Wallace wrote:
Yes, the sheer volume of posts is definitely becoming a problem (for me,
at least). All your suggestions for keeping the community polite and
helpful are good. But I wonder if there are also any useful technical
tips for users like myself, who would like to be able to
Besides traffic, which is something I'm quite used to (try to read the
Python mailing list), I think dons made a quite good point.
On 7/12/07, Donald Bruce Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
That is, to help people progress from newbie, to intermediate, to
expert, and thus ensure the culture is
On 13/07/07, Jim Burton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
As well as being nice, can't you sometimes tell people to RTFM? Or,
You've asked that before, or That's an FAQ, search the archive?
I suppose you could, but speaking as someone who doesn't know much but
tries to answer questions when he does
Donald Bruce Stewart wrote:
As we sit here riding the Haskell wave:
[...]
* Give tips on how to answer questions
Answering politely, and in detail, explaining common
misunderstandings
is better than one word replies.
* Adopt a near-zero-tolerance Be Nice
On Fri, Jul 13, 2007 at 09:35:09AM +0100, Malcolm Wallace wrote:
Yes, the sheer volume of posts is definitely becoming a problem (for me,
at least).
The Haskell lists are quite peculiarly named; the haskell@ list is
pretty much what would be haskell-announce@ anywhere else, and
haskell-cafe@
* Magnus Therning wrote:
One obvious solution is to split the list into several, more specialised
lists. It's far from obvious, at least to me, how to do that with this
list though.
Switch to Usenet. The new haskell group will die, if the traffic will not
increase.
On Fri, Jul 13, 2007 at 09:35:09 +0100, Malcolm Wallace wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donald Bruce Stewart) writes:
As we sit here riding the Haskell wave:
http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~dons/tmp/cafe.png
with nearly 2000 (!) people reading haskell-cafe@, perhaps its time to
think some more
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donald Bruce Stewart) writes:
As we sit here riding the Haskell wave:
http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~dons/tmp/cafe.png
with nearly 2000 (!) people reading haskell-cafe@, perhaps its time to
think some more about how to build and maintain this lovely Haskell
community
Lutz Donnerhacke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Switch to Usenet. The new haskell group will die, if the traffic will
not increase.
If anything, Usenet is even worse than mailing lists for volume,
especially of spam. Also, very few sites maintain their nntp servers
adequately these days - e.g.
Hello,
On Friday 13 July 2007 16:45, Ian Lynagh wrote:
...
* At any point, create [EMAIL PROTECTED]
This would have the advantage that people might not be so intimidated
at making their first post here, and posts wouldn't be answered with
category theory or scary type extensions.
On Friday 13 July 2007, Donald Bruce Stewart wrote:
claus.reinke:
personally, i tend to be more willing to answer questions
on the list than to fiddle with wiki markup and conventions,
but there is no reason why people who are happier with
wiki editing cannot
Hello,
On Friday 13 July 2007 17:08, Neil Mitchell wrote:
Hi
* At any point, create [EMAIL PROTECTED]
This would have the advantage that people might not be so intimidated
at making their first post here, and posts wouldn't be answered with
category theory or scary type
Hi
* At any point, create [EMAIL PROTECTED]
This would have the advantage that people might not be so intimidated
at making their first post here, and posts wouldn't be answered with
category theory or scary type extensions.
The disadvantages are that it makes an artificial barrier
On Fri, Jul 13, 2007 at 02:30:49AM -0700, Jim Burton wrote:
Very timely! It's sad that haskell-cafe has so much noise now. I haven't
been around very long at all but it has gone downhill dramatically even in
the last 6 months
just look for the date of my first post...
to improve the list,
Hi Don
On 13 Jul 2007, at 14:47, Donald Bruce Stewart wrote:
I tried an experiment this week of just taking someone's post
(Conor's idiom
brackets), and putting directly on the wiki first, then letting the
author know that's happened.
Seemed entirely reasonable to me. If I have a spare
On Fri, 13 Jul 2007, brad clawsie wrote:
to improve the list, might i suggest
- push chatter to IRC
This is problematic for some kinds of techie chatter, where email makes it
easier to get all the maths down.
- take this service off of email entirely. try a web forum system (you
may
Perhaps an information retrieval pipedream, but what if we attempted
an automated FAQ answerer? I'm sure some keywords pop-up often enough
in certain chunks of first posts (heterogenous lists, existential
error messages, SOE and graphics, category functor monad, etc). It
could respond with the
FYI, Gmail *can* kill threads, the Geniuses just deemed it unworthy of
a UI presence. This is news to me and related to earlier comments in
this thread. HTH
http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=enanswer=47787
On 7/13/07, Nicolas Frisby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Perhaps an information
Ian Lynagh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I think the number of posts in the wrong place would be
lower if these were more conventionally named (although there aren't a
lot of them anyway).
There are very few inappropriate posts to the haskell@ list.
I very much doubt that the list names are a
Donald Bruce Stewart wrote:
As we sit here riding the Haskell wave:
http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~dons/tmp/cafe.png
with nearly 2000 (!) people reading haskell-cafe@, perhaps its time to
think some more about how to build and maintain this lovely Haskell
community we have. Just yesterday
On Fri, Jul 13, 2007 at 12:11:58PM +1000, Donald Bruce Stewart wrote:
As we sit here riding the Haskell wave:
http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~dons/tmp/cafe.png
[..]
That is, to help people progress from newbie, to intermediate, to
expert, and thus ensure the culture is maintained (avoiding
The following recent reply from Dave Bayer is IMHO nearly optimal for
Maintaining the Community, and I applaud him for it:
Dave Bayer wrote:
[someone] writes:
So what the hell is the difference between them? Int and Integer.
They aren't synonyms clearly. What's going on?
brad clawsie wrote:
to improve the list, might i suggest
- push chatter to IRC
- take this service off of email entirely. try a web forum system (you
may have to slum it and use php). i don't recommend nntp, that just
forces us to use gmane since very few isps provide nntp now.
Just
Andrew Coppin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Just curiose, but... what does NNTP have to do with your ISP?
Someone has to provide an NNTP server for your client to connect to.
Many ISPs don't. Things like gmane can be used, of course. Some of
the free ones can be okay. I like
Andrew Coppin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Mark T.B. Carroll wrote:
Andrew Coppin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Just curiose, but... what does NNTP have to do with your ISP?
Someone has to provide an NNTP server for your client to connect to.
Many ISPs don't. Things like gmane can be used, of
Mark T.B. Carroll wrote:
Andrew Coppin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
...and when you view a web page, your web browser has to connect to a
web server somewhere.
I don't see your point...
Very many news servers will only serve news to people on the network of
whoever's running the
On Fri, 13 Jul 2007, Andrew Coppin wrote:
Mark T.B. Carroll wrote:
Andrew Coppin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
...and when you view a web page, your web browser has to connect to a
web server somewhere.
I don't see your point...
Very many news servers will only serve
:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andrew Coppin
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 5:04 PM
To: haskell-cafe@haskell.org
Subject: Re: [Haskell-cafe] Maintaining the community
Mark T.B. Carroll wrote:
Andrew Coppin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
...and when you view a web page, your web browser has to connect
From: Andrew Coppin [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Really? Most web servers will accept a connection from anybody. (Unless
it's *intended* to be an Intranet.) I'm not quite sure why somebody
would configure their NNTP server differently...
The scale of an NNTP server is simply a *lot* bigger than most
On Fri, 2007-07-13 at 14:33 +0100, Claus Reinke wrote:
As we sit here riding the Haskell wave:
http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~dons/tmp/cafe.png
with nearly 2000 (!) people reading haskell-cafe@, perhaps its time to
think some more about how to build and maintain this lovely Haskell
On Jul 13, 2007, at 17:41 , Anthony Chaumas-Pellet wrote:
From: Andrew Coppin [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Really? Most web servers will accept a connection from anybody.
(Unless
it's *intended* to be an Intranet.) I'm not quite sure why somebody
would configure their NNTP server differently...
The
Perhaps those of you who have found good, free NNTP servers
would care to share these well kept secrets?
have you tried gmane.org? http://gmane.org/about.php
http://news.gmane.org/search.php?match=haskell
(there's nntp://news.gmane.org/ and http://news.gmane.org/
among others)
claus
On Fri, 2007-13-07 at 12:11 +1000, Donald Bruce Stewart wrote:
* Give tips on how to answer questions
Answering politely, and in detail, explaining common misunderstandings
is better than one word replies.
I can give one added tip, though, that is an opposing force which
On Fri, 2007-13-07 at 20:39 +0200, Andrea Rossato wrote:
http://headrush.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/buildingausercommunity.jpg
Now, I'm telling this because I believe that the expert ones are in
part responsible for the gap the picture shows.
In many ways the experts in any
On Fri, 2007-13-07 at 09:35 +0100, Malcolm Wallace wrote:
But I wonder if there are also any useful technical
tips for users like myself, who would like to be able to keep up, but
feel they are gradually drowning?
I have a couple of simple heuristics that are almost universally
applicable to
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