Re: [haskell art] [Haskell-cafe] the library of beautiful instruments implemented in haskell / csound

[Tom Murphy]

These sound great, congratulations! "Batteries included" is a great place
to be. Can you point to references you used to create the instrument
definitions?

Tom


On Sun, Sep 13, 2015 at 9:13 AM, Anton Kholomiov 
wrote:

> Status update for my haskell synth csound-expression. The main point is
> presence of many cool instruments. They are implemented in the package
> csound-catalog. All packages are compiled with GHC-7.10 So the hackage
> fails to build them and unfortunately docs a broken too. But you can look
> at the source code of the module Csound.Patch to now  the names of the
> instruments. The usage is pretty straightforward. It's described here:
>
>
> https://github.com/spell-music/csound-expression/blob/master/tutorial/chapters/Patches.md
>
> There is an mp3 file to listen to the instruments.
> http://ge.tt/1jNETqN2/v/0
>
> *The 4.8.3 is out! New features:*
>
> This is a very important release to me. It tries to solve the problem
> present in the most open source music-production libraries. It's often the
> pack of beautiful sounds/timbres is missing. User is presented with many
> audio primitives but no timbres are present to show the real power of the
> framework. This release solves this problem. See the friend package
> csound-catalog on Hackage. It defines 200+ beautiful instruments ready to
> be used.
>
> The csound-expression defines a new type called Patch for description of
> an instrument with a chain of effects. It's good place to start the journey
> to the world of music production.
>
> There are new functions for synchronized reaction on events. The
> triggering of events can be synchronized with given BPM.
>
> The library is updated for GHC-7.10!
>
>
> github repo: https://github.com/spell-music/csound-expression
>
> hackage: http://hackage.haskell.org/package/csound-expression
>
>
> Cheers!
>
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Read the whole topic here: Haskell Art:
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

[Tom Murphy]

On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 9:48 PM, Adrian May
adrian.alexander@gmail.comwrote:



 Is anybody in the Haskell community still interested in attracting new
 users? If so I suggest you go play with Ruby on Rails. Then you'll know
 what it's like to approach a complex and unfamiliar system where every
 crumb requires a precise version of every other. If you had my job, you'd
 find out what you needed to know within half an hour.



Rails is in many ways as (more?) backwards-incompatible as Haskell. E.g.,
Rails 4 requires(!) Ruby 1.9.3+. 1.9.3 was released in the fall of 2011.
When new major versions of Rails or Ruby come out, developers are generally
expected to make the incremental changes to keep up. It's the donkey in a
well thing -- you never get buried if you make small changes over time.

Tom
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Prolog-style patterns

[Tom Murphy]

On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 7:59 AM, Joachim Breitner
m...@joachim-breitner.dewrote:

 Hi,

 I believe one problem with non-linear patterns would be that the
 compiler has to figure out what notion of equality you want here. An
 obvious choice is (==), but the Eq instances might not do what you want.
 Using pattern guards or view patterns explicates this choice.


What other types of equality would be possibilities?


Also, for some history, this was discussed a while back:
http://www.mail-archive.com/haskell@haskell.org/msg03721.html

Erlang programmers have this feature without shooting themselves in the
foot too often. That said, I'm happy without it.

Tom
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[Haskell-cafe] N-ANN: HBlog-0.1

[Tom Murphy]

Hi All,
 Not particularly happy to announce the non-release of my latest
library, HBlog 0.1. I've been working on it steadily for a long time now,
but it's still not ready.

 The library -- when it's finished -- will be a 100% Haskell
representation of blogs, from authors and posts up to the most abstract
notion of an entire blog as a Haskell data type.

 I'd like to finish the library sometime, but I've been so busy! Any
spare time I've had, I've just ended up watching TV. I've been so caught up
with the final season of The Office, I didn't realize how much time had
passed since I originally had the idea! (2 years.) Didn't it seem like Jim
and Pam were going to break up a couple
weeks ago?!

 Anyway, here's the code I've definitely settled on so far:

data Author = Author { name :: String }
   deriving (Show, Eq)

data Post = Post { title   :: String
 , body:: String
 , authors :: [Author] }
   deriving (Show)

data Blog = Blog [Post]

hasSingleAuthor :: Post - Bool
hasSingleAuthor post = 1 == (length $ authors post)

 Feel free to use portions of this code in your own projects! Just be
sure to put at the top of all your source files: Portions of this code (c)
2013 Tom Murphy. All rights reserved.

ROADMAP:
 -- Lenses sound pretty cool, so I've started writing lenses for the Author
type, as well as finding out what a lens is. Maybe one day there'll be
lenses for the Post type, too -- keep your fingers crossed!
 -- One time when I was walking home from work, I had the idea for blogs
being modeled as monads. Wouldn't that be awesome?: The Blog Monad. I
haven't done it yet, though, because I haven't figured out what bind would
do. If you figure out how to model blogs as monads, just be sure to include
this in all of your sourcefiles: Idea for blog monad (c) 2013 Tom Murphy.
All rights reserved.


Happy hacking!
Tom
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] N-ANN: HBlog-0.1

[Tom Murphy]

Oh, and happy April 1!


On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 6:16 AM, Tom Murphy amin...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi All,
  Not particularly happy to announce the non-release of my latest
 library, HBlog 0.1. I've been working on it steadily for a long time now,
 but it's still not ready.

  The library -- when it's finished -- will be a 100% Haskell
 representation of blogs, from authors and posts up to the most abstract
 notion of an entire blog as a Haskell data type.

  I'd like to finish the library sometime, but I've been so busy! Any
 spare time I've had, I've just ended up watching TV. I've been so caught up
 with the final season of The Office, I didn't realize how much time had
 passed since I originally had the idea! (2 years.) Didn't it seem like Jim
 and Pam were going to break up a couple
 weeks ago?!

  Anyway, here's the code I've definitely settled on so far:

 data Author = Author { name :: String }
deriving (Show, Eq)

 data Post = Post { title   :: String
  , body:: String
  , authors :: [Author] }
deriving (Show)

 data Blog = Blog [Post]

 hasSingleAuthor :: Post - Bool
 hasSingleAuthor post = 1 == (length $ authors post)

  Feel free to use portions of this code in your own projects! Just be
 sure to put at the top of all your source files: Portions of this code (c)
 2013 Tom Murphy. All rights reserved.

 ROADMAP:
  -- Lenses sound pretty cool, so I've started writing lenses for the
 Author type, as well as finding out what a lens is. Maybe one day there'll
 be lenses for the Post type, too -- keep your fingers crossed!
  -- One time when I was walking home from work, I had the idea for blogs
 being modeled as monads. Wouldn't that be awesome?: The Blog Monad. I
 haven't done it yet, though, because I haven't figured out what bind would
 do. If you figure out how to model blogs as monads, just be sure to include
 this in all of your sourcefiles: Idea for blog monad (c) 2013 Tom Murphy.
 All rights reserved.


 Happy hacking!
 Tom


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Re: [Haskell-cafe] ANN: Nomyx 0.1 beta, the game where you can change the rules

[Tom Murphy]

There's another one...
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-0-NT1rzFpik/Tpe4sb18gOI/AuM/j2BHO_TgLi4/s1600/calvinball.jpg

Tom

On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 7:07 PM, Ben Lippmeier b...@ouroborus.net wrote:

 On 27/02/2013, at 10:28 , Corentin Dupont corentin.dup...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hello everybody!
 I am very happy to announce the beta release [1] of Nomyx, the only game 
 where You can change the rules.

 Don't forget 1KBWC: http://www.corngolem.com/1kbwc/

 Ben.



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Re: [Haskell-cafe] ANNOUNCE: Groundhog 0.1.0.1 - high-level database library

[Tom Murphy]

How does this compare with other high-level Haskell db libraries?

Tom
On Sep 13, 2012 2:25 PM, Boris Lykah lyk...@gmail.com wrote:

 I am happy to announce a new version of Groundhog, a library for fast
 high-level database access:
 http://hackage.haskell.org/package/groundhog
 http://hackage.haskell.org/package/groundhog-th
 http://hackage.haskell.org/package/groundhog-postgresql
 http://hackage.haskell.org/package/groundhog-sqlite

 Groundhog has been completely overhauled since the last release.
 Notably, it got support for PostgreSQL and natural foreign keys. I
 believe that it is a big step forward as this brings more flexibility
 to the design of the relational schemas while keeping the applications
 independent of the storage layer. Some of the solutions, particularly
 schema migration were based on Persistent code.

 Please see examples at
 http://github.com/lykahb/groundhog/tree/master/examples.

 Features:
 * Support for Sqlite and PostgreSQL.
 * Natural and composite foreign keys. Earlier it was possible to
 reference an entity only by the mandatory integer primary key. Now an
 entity can have several keys including autoincrement primary key
 (optional) and unique keys which have one or more columns.
 * Full support of embedded datatypes. You can access a field that
 contains an embedded datatype as a whole, or access some of the inner
 subfields individually. This powerful mechanism has allowed
 implementation of the composite keys, and can be used in future to
 work with PostgreSQL composite types or MongoDB embedded documents.
 Instead of serializing value to string, the Groundhog backends flatten
 tree of embedded datatypes to db columns.
 * Projections. You can choose what columns to query from a table in a
 type-safe manner.
 * Initialization and migration of database schema.
 * Sum types and polymorphic types.
 * Expression DSL for use in queries.
 * Basic list support.
 * YAML-based settings mechanism. It separates datatype definition and
 description which facilitates modularity. The settings are inferred
 from the analysis of the difinition, and overridden with values set by
 user.

 The Criterion benchmarks are available at
 http://lykahb.github.com/groundhog/SqliteBench.html and
 http://lykahb.github.com/groundhog/PostgreSQLBench.html.

 Future plans:
 * Support for joins
 * Database indexes
 * Investigate options for implementing MongoDB and MySQL backends

 Your feedback, suggestions for improvement and criticism are welcome.

 --
 Regards,
 Boris

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[Haskell-cafe] Proposal: Technique to handle package dependency gridlock

[Tom Murphy]

We've got a problem with dependencies:
http://cdsmith.wordpress.com/2011/01/21/a-recap-about-cabal-and-haskell-libraries/
http://cdsmith.wordpress.com/2011/01/17/the-butterfly-effect-in-cabal/
http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/x4knd/what_is_the_reason_for_haskells_cabal_package/

I'd like to present a proto-proposal for another arrow in our quiver.

First, a few...
Principles:

  This problem isn't uniquely Haskell's
...Although it may be uniquely Haskell's to solve. Lots of
languages have a problem managing their package dependencies. To quote
Chris Smith, it’s fair to say that perhaps Haskell is one of the few
environments where we’ve got a prayer at solving the problem.

  It's a magnitude problem
The trick is to not find one perfect solution; it's to use enough
effective solutions that the remaining tricky cases can be swept away
individually. Solving the problem will most likely involve several
techniques (good versioning policy, a little work on the part of
package maintainers, smarter Cabal, new tools, etc.). Once we get the
problem down to a manageable level, then it's a problem that can be
dealt with package-by-package.

  Haskell packages are not black boxes
Inheriting - from the imperative world - the idea of packages as
indivisible units may be a mistake. A language like Ruby may have to
import a full library, because it's nearly-impossible to reason about
the behavior of part of it in isolation from the rest of it. Haskell's
not like that, though! Referential transparency gives us awesome
powers to reason about a pure function's behavior in nearly all cases.
We could define package dependency in terms of providing
functions-that-behave-like-the-ones-we-used.
I mean, for god's sake, we can write QuickCheck properties like
`quickSort == bubbleSort` and test it with a very high degree of
assurance. The ability to pass the same suite of QuickCheck tests, or
even the ability to pass a test like `fmap-3.1.2 == fmap 3.1.3`, could
be strong enough proof - in the vast majority of cases - of functions'
equivalence and therefore interchangeability. This could ease a
significant number of package version constraints. Call it
Property-Based Versioning - where your packages dependencies are based
on which other versions of the package can provide the same
functionality *for the functions and types that your package uses*.

  Programmer time is precious
Thus far, the package dependency issue has been more or less a
tug-of-war between package maintainers not wanting to do more work,
and package users not wanting to do more work. Users just want to use
the packages. Maintainers have a potentially-endless list of versions
to check compatibility for (I'm using foo-2.5.3. I assume anything
2.3 or greater is fine. Should I check through and see if 2.4 works?
2.3? 2.2? [...]). Not to mention they can't know what the future will
hold for later versions of the dependent packages, and they have to
make a usually-pretty-uneducated guess about the future.

Instead of maintainers and users, maybe computers should lift some
of the load. Huge swaths of the most-used packages on Hackage are pure
functions and data types. These are relatively easy to reason about,
and if we could come close to reducing our dependency problem by, say,
30-50%, that would in my view put us within striking distance of
having a very smoothly-running package ecosystem.

  These are decisions the community has to make
There are lots of decisions to make and tradeoffs to balance. The
main reason that I'm presenting such an embryonic description of this
technique is to see what the Haskell community values most.
In my view the ideal would be to be able to write a dependency
description like This package needs functions that behave like the
ones I used in foo-3.1.2. A potentially less hair-shirty way to get
some of the same functionality is for package authors to have a
cabal-install or pre-cabal-install tool that determines which
functions and data types are used from a package, finds equivalent
ones in other packages, and write a dependency spec based on its
findings (this wouldn't have anything to say about compatibility of
not-yet-written packages, of course).

Tom

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Martin Odersky on What's wrong with Monads

[Tom Murphy]

In practice, the amount of time you have to spend testing each function, to
make sure its IO doesn't trip up in some corner case, is usually greater
than the amount of time a rewrite-for-IO would take.

Tom
On Jun 28, 2012 2:54 PM, Dominique Devriese 
dominique.devri...@cs.kuleuven.be wrote:

 2012/6/27 Tillmann Rendel ren...@informatik.uni-marburg.de:
  MightyByte wrote:
 
  Of course every line of your program that uses a Foo will change if you
  switch
  to IO Foo instead.
 
 
  But we often have to also change lines that don't use Foo at all. For
  example, here is the type of binary trees of integers:
 
   data Tree = Leaf Integer | Branch (Tree Integer) (Tree Integer)
 
  A function to add up all integers in a tree:
 
   amount:: Tree - Integer
   amount (Leaf x) = x
   amount (Branch t1 t2) = amountt1 + amountt2
 
  All fine so far. Now, consider the following additional requirement: If
 the
  command-line flag --multiply is set, the function amount computes the
  product instead of the sum.
 
  In a language with implicit side effects, it is easy to implement this.
 We
  just change the third line of the amount function to check whether to
 call
  (+) or (*). In particular, we would not touch the other two lines.
 
  How would you implement this requirement in Haskell without changing the
  line amount (Leaf x) = x?

 I may be missing the point here, but having worked on large code bases
 with a wide variety contributors before, I find it very advantageous
 that programmers are prevented from writing an amount function whose
 behaviour depends on command line arguments without at least an
 indication in the type. The fact that the function can not perform
 stuff like that is precisely the guarantee that the Haskell type gives
 me...

 Dominique

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] [Haskell-beginners] Most C++ compilers will not optimize x^2.0 as x*x but instead will do an expensive ...

[Tom Murphy]

Just to play devil's advocate, if you look back at the list, KC has
written a lot of helpful and informative messages in the past.

Tom

On 5/23/12, Bardur Arantsson s...@scientician.net wrote:
 On 05/24/2012 04:31 AM, Brandon Allbery wrote:
 On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 10:19 PM, Bardur Arantsson
 s...@scientician.netwrote:

 This has come up before -- this KC person probably has a broken mail
 client which doesn't set appropriate References headers.


 That, however, ignores the rest of it; the lack of references in this
 case
 forms a pattern with the other things I noted, in that a conversation is
 apparently being held in the form of single observations emitted at the
 point of observation instead of being collected and presented *as* a
 conversation.


 Right. I was actually just about to respond to (only) KC in person, but
 perhaps unwisely, decided to hijack your response to add a little
 explanation for everyone.

 You are of course right that not quoting context and just randomly
 spewing out small bits of text is not really suitable for a mailing list.


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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Learn you

[Tom Murphy]

On May 3, 2012 8:40 PM, wren ng thornton w...@freegeek.org wrote:

 On 5/3/12 1:26 AM, Richard O'Keefe wrote:

 The Little Lisper (and the other books
 like The Little Schemer and The Seasoned Schemer) are
 presumably meant to be funny, but to me come across as
 offensively patronising


 Tis a pity. I know the authors and they certainly didn't mean it to be
patronizing. I wouldn't say funny was the goal either, just cute perhaps.

FWIW, I loved the tone of those books, and I think it helps many people
learn the material. It's nice to have a little reminder every once in a
while: good job! Now go take a break; make some cookies - here's a recipe

Tom
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Open-source projects for beginning Haskell students?

[Tom Murphy]

 If you want to do Haskell audio synthesis, you could also use
hsc3 (good start here: http://slavepianos.org/rd/ut/hsc3-texts/). With
hsc3 you can start on serious audio synthesis with only a few lines of
Haskell. In my opinion it could use a much larger community.

Tom


On 3/22/12, Heinrich Apfelmus apfel...@quantentunnel.de wrote:
 serialhex wrote:
 On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 11:01 AM, Heinrich Apfelmus
 apfel...@quantentunnel.de wrote:
 The task is to implement a small audio synthesizer in Haskell.

 seriously?!?!  i'm not in his class, but i'm game!  i learn better
 when i'm working on something interesting, and i want to make my
 (currently pretty pathetic) haskell better and i *LOOOE*
 audio!  a haskell-based synth (or series of synths) would be really
 spiffy!  what do i have to know / learn / do?

 Well, it's up to you, really. You need to learn a bit how audio
 synthesis works, for instance starting with the following links.

http://www.acoustics.salford.ac.uk/acoustics_info/sound_synthesis/
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Sound_Synthesis_Theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Sound_synthesis_types


 Then, it's best to learn by programming various wave forms yourself and
 playing around with them. I just finished implementing the necessary
 Haskell backend for playing raw audio data. You can find it here:

http://hackage.haskell.org/package/tomato-rubato-openal

 The  testSine  function demonstrates how it works.


 Best regards,
 Heinrich Apfelmus

 --
 http://apfelmus.nfshost.com


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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Open-source projects for beginning Haskell students?

[Tom Murphy]

Sorry; make that http://slavepianos.org/rd/ut/hsc3-texts/hsc3-tutorial.html

On 3/22/12, Tom Murphy amin...@gmail.com wrote:
  If you want to do Haskell audio synthesis, you could also use
 hsc3 (good start here: http://slavepianos.org/rd/ut/hsc3-texts/). With
 hsc3 you can start on serious audio synthesis with only a few lines of
 Haskell. In my opinion it could use a much larger community.

 Tom


 On 3/22/12, Heinrich Apfelmus apfel...@quantentunnel.de wrote:
 serialhex wrote:
 On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 11:01 AM, Heinrich Apfelmus
 apfel...@quantentunnel.de wrote:
 The task is to implement a small audio synthesizer in Haskell.

 seriously?!?!  i'm not in his class, but i'm game!  i learn better
 when i'm working on something interesting, and i want to make my
 (currently pretty pathetic) haskell better and i *LOOOE*
 audio!  a haskell-based synth (or series of synths) would be really
 spiffy!  what do i have to know / learn / do?

 Well, it's up to you, really. You need to learn a bit how audio
 synthesis works, for instance starting with the following links.

http://www.acoustics.salford.ac.uk/acoustics_info/sound_synthesis/
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Sound_Synthesis_Theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Sound_synthesis_types


 Then, it's best to learn by programming various wave forms yourself and
 playing around with them. I just finished implementing the necessary
 Haskell backend for playing raw audio data. You can find it here:

http://hackage.haskell.org/package/tomato-rubato-openal

 The  testSine  function demonstrates how it works.


 Best regards,
 Heinrich Apfelmus

 --
 http://apfelmus.nfshost.com


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Re: [Haskell-cafe] In an imperative language, commands fulling memory cells is easy, but gives the false impression that S/W engineering is easy.

[Tom Murphy]

The messages are replies to messages on this list; I think it's just a
simple smartphone subject/message mixup

Tom
On Mar 17, 2012 4:44 PM, Jake McArthur jake.mcart...@gmail.com wrote:

 This mailing list is not Twitter. Please stop sending emails without
 meaningful content.
 On Mar 17, 2012 12:42 PM, KC kc1...@gmail.com wrote:



 --
 --
 Regards,
 KC

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell compilers targeting VMs

[Tom Murphy]

There are some substantial technical challenges:

http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/GHC:FAQ#Why_isn.27t_GHC_available_for_.NET_or_on_the_JVM.3F

Not that it can't be done, but there's nothing ready yet.

Tom (IRC: amindfv)


On 2/23/12, ARJANEN Loïc Jean David arjanen.l...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hello,

 Does any one knows of an Haskell compiler targeting the JVM ? And of one
 targeting the .Net virtual machine ?

 Regards,
 ARJANEN Loïc

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Functional programming podcast

[Tom Murphy]

I'd listen.
With good editing and good discussion, this could be a nice addition
to my (bi)week.

Tom (amindfv)


On 2/22/12, Christopher Done chrisd...@googlemail.com wrote:
 Show of hands, who would be interested in working on a podcast weekly
 or biweekly and what would you like to provide? Light banter is an
 acceptable answer. Some points that might be covered on such a podcast
 might be:

 * Latest FP conferences/hackathons/etc
 * Competitions
 * Interesting papers (new, or old and dug up)
 * Interesting blog posts or stackoverflow questions
 * New and interesting libraries/tech released
 * Developments in the communities, funding, business developments
 * Interviews with prominent FP chappies

 This bleeds over a little with Haskell Weekly News, but it's more like
 FP weekly interesting stuff, and therefore there would be a lot more
 news to pack in. It would be something to listen to while you're
 walking to work with your ipod.

 On 21 February 2012 15:55, Mats Rauhala mats.rauh...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 15:15 Tue 21 Feb , Christopher Done wrote:
 I recently thought it would be Pretty Cool to make an FP podcast, sort
 of a spoken Haskell Weekly News but covering all FP, blogs, packages,
 conferences, papers, standards, mailing lists, even stackoverflow,
 whatever's interesting in FP. We could use Gtalk or Mumble (both quite
 high quality audio) to conduct it and cut it up in audacity.

 I for one would be an interested listener

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[Haskell-cafe] Haskell development in Mac OS X after Gatekeeper

[Tom Murphy]

Does anyone know what this will mean for the future of Haskell
development in OS X?:

http://www.apple.com/macosx/mountain-lion/security.html


I'm particularly interested in what it'll mean for

0) Distributing non-Cocoa-built apps, even if you're approved by Apple

1) Writing software for widespread use (a security setting is to only
run software from the App Store, and I'd like to have my software
function on users' computers.)

 1.0) Aren't you unable to put software under the GPL or certain
other open-source licenses on the App Store?


amindfv / Tom

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell development in Mac OS X after Gatekeeper

[Tom Murphy]

On 2/19/12, Austin Seipp mad@gmail.com wrote:
 On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 6:01 PM, Tom Murphy amin...@gmail.com wrote:
 0) Distributing non-Cocoa-built apps, even if you're approved by Apple

 Do you just mean binaries that you expect users run under
 /usr/local/bin or something, not app bundles? If that's the case, I
 cannot say if the same restrictions will apply.

 Actually, what I was more concerned about was the ability to
distribute a full Mac application, with a GUI, made with a method
other than calling Haskell from Objective-C.
 It seems that *none* of these applications will be usable by
anyone except users with all security settings turned off (it doesn't
sound great in a user manual: Every time you run this program, be
sure to turn the malware-detector all the way off)

 The reason I'm concerned is that having a security signature
requires a membership to the Apple Developers program, which is
exclusively for XCode [0]. Isn't it logical to assume that the
signature-bundling process [1] occurs within XCode?
 (I'm assuming the digital summary of the contents of the
application is a hash, which (I think) would imply that
XCode-compilation would have to be the final step in the development
chain)

 Which (again, unless I'm reading it wrong) means that most
Haskell OS X GUI work (incl. FRP) goes out the window?!

amindfv / Tom


[0] Not to mention $100 every year!

[1] Digital signatures are created by combining a secret key known
only to the developer with a digital summary of the contents of the
application. It’s all wrapped together in an encrypted file that
becomes part of the app.

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell development in Mac OS X after Gatekeeper

[Tom Murphy]

 *Short* term, the most that will happen is that people will have to
 say yeah yeah I know just let me have it OK?.

 Already in 10.6 there was this nagging feature where you click on a
 downloaded document and it says this was downloaded, do you really
 want to open it and it takes a painfully long time bouncing in the
 dock before that dialogue box comes up.


 I disagree. I don't think the control-click bypass is realistic
for real world applications. (Meaning software written for the
average user).

 With the 10.6 dialogue box, it's clear that there's no negative
inference about the particular software downloaded. On the other hand,
it's impossible for a software company to maintain a sense of
professionalism, when a user has to know a weird secret handshake to
disable what they may perceive as equivalent to antivirus software.

 *Short* term, it's just more continuing low-level harassment by
 Apple (even if perhaps with good intentions).  Long term, well,
 there's a reason why I keep Solaris, Linux, and OpenBSD around...

 I disagree that this is a small move. $100 per year from every
Mac OS X developer in the world, plus 30% of the take from the App
Store is big money.


- amindfv / Tom

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Happstack-state in non-happstack production apps

[Tom Murphy]

Could someone with more knowledge of the project please update
http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Web/Databases_and_Persistence, to
reflect the move from happstack-state to acid-state?

Thanks,
Tom

On 2/11/12, dag.odenh...@gmail.com dag.odenh...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 10 February 2012 23:09, Antoine Latter aslat...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 3:56 PM, Tom Murphy amin...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi,
     Is it common to use happstack-state without happstack for
 real-world code (web or otherwise)?


 The package 'acid-state' is considered the successor to
 happstack-state, and it doesn't include 'happstack' in it's name to
 advertise that it is quite usable outside of happstack.

 I don't have a list of who does, though.

 http://hackage.haskell.org/package/acid-state

 Antoine

 There's even a snaplet for acid-state:

 http://hackage.haskell.org/package/snaplet-acid-state


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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Subject: A universal data store interface

[Tom Murphy]

 With respect, I don't think that Persistent is a natural choice
as the go-to tool for Haskell users, simply because it requires
knowledge of a lot of Yesod-EDSL syntax.
 The set of users with persistent data needs seems a very
different set than that of those who are familiar with Yesod, and I
think the syntax is quite confusing without fuller understanding of
Yesod.

 The syntax of acid-state (not familiar with this one), and
swapper (https://github.com/roman-smrz/swapper/blob/master/test/) seem
to have a much more linear learning curve for an intermediate Haskell
user.

amindfv / Tom

On 2/13/12, Greg Weber g...@gregweber.info wrote:
 Hi Sergiu,

 Thanks you for your interest in that proposal. I rushed it off a year
 ago. Since then we have made a lot of improvements to Persistent and
 the library forms a basic building block for most Yesod users and
 other Haskellers. Persistent offers a level of type-safety and
 convenience not available elsewhere (except perhaps for libraries like
 acid-state that are limited to in-memory storage). That being said,
 there are still a lot of improvements that could be made. With the
 effort of a GSoC volunteer we could probably get it to the point of
 being the go-to data storage library for Haskellers, at least those
 planning on using the subset of backends (likely SQL) with great
 support. This proposal is vague and we would need to work with you to
 narrow things down a bit.

 I am biased, but I believe the Yesod project is one of the most
 compelling in the Haskell ecosystem. There are a lot of different ways
 a GSoC project could help make things even better besides improving
 the associated Persistent library, and we would really like to mentor
 at least one GSoC student. I would open more tickets for this in the
 system, but I am not sure how helpful it will be. It seems that we
 need to reach out to more students like yourself, but I am not sure
 how to do that unless I see messages like these first.

 Greg Weber

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Subject: A universal data store interface

[Tom Murphy]

It seems that all tutorials and resources for Persistent use Template
Haskell along with several Yesod specifics.

But, I could be wrong, or new tutorials could be written.

Tom

On 2/13/12, Michael Snoyman mich...@snoyman.com wrote:
 Actually, Persistent is fully usable without any special syntax, DSLs,
 or Template Haskell. In fact, Persistent itself has no
 template-haskell dependencies, specifically so that it can be built on
 ghc-iphone. Additionally, the Persistent DSL syntax is completely
 separate from any other Yesod DSL syntaxes that exist, so it's not
 like you have to learn five new things to get the automatic code
 generation.

 On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 9:30 PM, Tom Murphy amin...@gmail.com wrote:
     With respect, I don't think that Persistent is a natural choice
 as the go-to tool for Haskell users, simply because it requires
 knowledge of a lot of Yesod-EDSL syntax.
     The set of users with persistent data needs seems a very
 different set than that of those who are familiar with Yesod, and I
 think the syntax is quite confusing without fuller understanding of
 Yesod.

     The syntax of acid-state (not familiar with this one), and
 swapper (https://github.com/roman-smrz/swapper/blob/master/test/) seem
 to have a much more linear learning curve for an intermediate Haskell
 user.

 amindfv / Tom

 On 2/13/12, Greg Weber g...@gregweber.info wrote:
 Hi Sergiu,

 Thanks you for your interest in that proposal. I rushed it off a year
 ago. Since then we have made a lot of improvements to Persistent and
 the library forms a basic building block for most Yesod users and
 other Haskellers. Persistent offers a level of type-safety and
 convenience not available elsewhere (except perhaps for libraries like
 acid-state that are limited to in-memory storage). That being said,
 there are still a lot of improvements that could be made. With the
 effort of a GSoC volunteer we could probably get it to the point of
 being the go-to data storage library for Haskellers, at least those
 planning on using the subset of backends (likely SQL) with great
 support. This proposal is vague and we would need to work with you to
 narrow things down a bit.

 I am biased, but I believe the Yesod project is one of the most
 compelling in the Haskell ecosystem. There are a lot of different ways
 a GSoC project could help make things even better besides improving
 the associated Persistent library, and we would really like to mentor
 at least one GSoC student. I would open more tickets for this in the
 system, but I am not sure how helpful it will be. It seems that we
 need to reach out to more students like yourself, but I am not sure
 how to do that unless I see messages like these first.

 Greg Weber

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Subject: A universal data store interface

[Tom Murphy]

On 2/13/12, Paul R paul.r...@gmail.com wrote:
[...]
 Abstraction over high level data stores is one of
 the worst idea in software engineering.

 The most proeminent example is probably PostgreSQL, which is an
 incredibly strong product with high SQL power. But as soon as you access
 it through the ActiveRecord or Persistent API, it gets turned into
 a very limited store, with the SQL power of SQLITE or MongoDB.


Limited /= Worst, though [0].

The popularity of SQLite and NoSQL prove that sometimes a limited
feature set is worth the gains in abstraction.

Definitely not for every project, of course.

Tom


[0]
Prelude limited == worst
False

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Subject: A universal data store interface

[Tom Murphy]

On 2/13/12, Sergiu Ivanov unlimitedscol...@gmail.com wrote:
[...]
 a stable, flexible, and
 easy-to-work-with, already existing storage interface should allow
 Haskell programmers to focus less on IO and more on the purely
 functional logic.


+1 - Very exciting!

Tom

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[Haskell-cafe] Usefulness of abstracting data storage, WAS: A universal data store interface

[Tom Murphy]

Mailing list thread split!
The GSoC seems like it should have its own list thread, so I'm moving
this other discussion:

On 2/13/12, Paul R paul.r...@gmail.com wrote:
 The most proeminent example is probably PostgreSQL, which is an
 incredibly strong product with high SQL power. But as soon as you access
 it through the ActiveRecord or Persistent API, it gets turned into
 a very limited store, with the SQL power of SQLITE or MongoDB.

 Tom Limited /= Worst, though [0].

 Tom The popularity of SQLite and NoSQL prove that sometimes a limited
 Tom feature set is worth the gains in abstraction.

 Tom Definitely not for every project, of course.

 I don't dismiss MongoDB nor SQLite, they are great. But you probably
 don't want to limit MongoDB to a SQL features set, and you don't want to
 limit SQLite to a NoSQL interface, and you don't want to limit
 PostgreSQL to a SQLite features set ...

 As you said, each of these stores has strenghs for particular needs and
 weaknesses for others. Pick the one that best suits your project, and
 use its full power, raw :)


I agree about strengths and weaknesses of different data stores.
However for my uses, I prefer Haskell Functors to any particular data
store. The tool that helps me stay within Haskell the most is the one
which I'll choose.

Tom

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[Haskell-cafe] Happstack-state in non-happstack production apps

[Tom Murphy]

Hi,
 Is it common to use happstack-state without happstack for
real-world code (web or otherwise)?

Thanks,
amindfv / Tom

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Fancy REPL

[Tom Murphy]

Does this mean we're going to see music FRP examples soon?!

amindfv / Tom
On Feb 9, 2012 2:17 PM, Heinrich Apfelmus apfel...@quantentunnel.de
wrote:

 Dear list,

 the  Show  class is extremely useful for exploring Haskell in a terminal,
 but sometimes, I just want something fancier. For instance, I'm currently
 dabbling with sound generation and it is only natural that I want to hear
 the sound instead of seeing a textual representation. Another example would
 be graphics, that are simply drawn on screen whenever you evaluate their
 value.

 Of course, this is simple to implement with a class

class Demonstrable a where
demo :: a - IO ()

instance Demonstrable Sound where demo = play
instance Demonstrable Sound where demo = draw
instance Demonstrable GUI   where demo = run
etc.


 However, I don't want to reinvent the wheel, small as it may be, hence my
 question: is there a package on hackage that already defines a class
 similar to  Demonstrable ? Or any other projects in this direction, like,
 say, a fancy REPL built on wxHaskell?


 Best regards,
 Heinrich Apfelmus

 --
 http://apfelmus.nfshost.com


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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Efficient temporary file storage??

[Tom Murphy]

It's not as efficient for Maps, but you might want to look at the
swapper package:

http://hackage.haskell.org/package/swapper

It transfers Haskell data structures (any functors) directly to and from disk.

Tom

On 1/23/12, Krzysztof Skrzętnicki gte...@gmail.com wrote:
 From my experience I can recommend msgpack (
 http://hackage.haskell.org/package/msgpack) as being extremely fast. It
 comes with optimized prepared instances for common data structures which is
 very nice, because you don't have to roll your own version with library
 like cereal (which is indeed very fast, but simply less convenient).

 Best regards,
 Krzysztof Skrzętnicki

 On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 00:37, Nick Rudnick
 nick.rudn...@googlemail.comwrote:

 Dear all,

 if you want to temporarily store haskell data in a file – do you have a
 special way to get it done efficiently?

 In an offline, standalone app, I am continuously reusing data volumes of
 about 200MB, representing Map like tables of a rather simple structure,

 key: (Int,Int,Int)
 value: [((Int,Int),LinkId)]


 which take quite a good deal of time to produce.

 Is there a recommendation about how to 'park' such data tables most
 efficiently in files – any format acceptable, quick loading time is the
 most desirable thing.

 Thanks a lot in advance, Nick

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] black Wikipedia (Was: PhD program at Portland State accepting applications)

[Tom Murphy]

On 1/18/12, MigMit miguelim...@yandex.ru wrote:
[..]
 (it really is a JavaScript trick).


In the interest of Wikipedia-style fact-citation, here's a quote from Wikipedia:
During the blackout, Wikipedia is accessible on mobile devices and
smart phones. You can also view Wikipedia normally by disabling
JavaScript in your browser, as explained on this Technical FAQ page.
Our purpose here isn't to make it completely impossible for people to
read Wikipedia, and it's okay for you to circumvent the blackout. We
just want to make sure you see our message. 
(Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:SOPA_initiative/Learn_more)

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] MIDI-controlled application

[Tom Murphy]

On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 3:54 AM, Tim Baumgartner 
baumgartner@googlemail.com wrote:

 Hi Haskellers!

 I'm writing my first non-trivial Haskell application. I have an
electronic drum set that generates MIDI events that I process with Haskell.
A simple application of this kind might have fixed drums associated with
fixed commands (I've done that).

[...]


 Currently I'm using a monad that combines Parsec (with MIDI event stream)
and a Writer (that writes commands that should result in IO). It's done in
a way that during running the monad, many parses can be done and failing
parses roll back the parser state so that a new parse can be tried.



Care to share your code?

amindfv / Tom
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] strict, lazy, non-strict, eager

[Tom Murphy]

I have not written this complaint until now because I have been waiting
for unmistakable evidence, a smoking gun, a red hand so caught that you
cannot explain away,
 It's not a murder trial! The number-one nice thing about the Haskell
community is that they _thoroughly_ listen to people. I think you'd get a
similarly informative discussion, sending just the second half of this
email.

That said, 2 points:


On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 1:49 PM, Dan Doel dan.d...@gmail.com wrote:

 [...]
 I think it's good to be clear on all these specifics, and people could
 do with a better recognition of the difference between (non-)strict
 and (lazy)eager (hint: you can have an eager, non-strict language). [...]


 +1.
 I'm pretty sure _none_ of the Haskell texts have a definitive
comparison of strict, non-strict, lazy, and eager.
 The Haskell Wiki has this (and only this) to say about Eager
Evaluation:
Eager evaluation is an implementation of the strict semantics as can be
found in OCaml and usually in imperative languages. A kind of opposite is
lazy evaluation. [0]
 We can do better.


 On the other hand:
 I'd _strongly_ argue against making up our minds about definitions
within the Haskell community. Most of these concepts aren't
Haskell-specific.
 An example of something to avoid is our definitions of concurrency
and parallellism. We as a community have specific, good definitions of
each term. [1] So does the Erlang community. [2] Yet the definitions don't
have anything to do with each other, which makes talking across communities
more difficult.


amindfv / Tom


[0] http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Eager_evaluation

[1]
http://learnyousomeerlang.com/the-hitchhikers-guide-to-concurrency#dont-panic,
paragraph 4

[2]
http://book.realworldhaskell.org/read/concurrent-and-multicore-programming.html,
Defining concurrency and parallelism
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] book.realworldhaskell.org is down

[Tom Murphy]

realworldhaskell.org/book
On Dec 25, 2011 1:46 AM, Eugene Kirpichov ekirpic...@gmail.com wrote:

 See subject.
 Is this expected?

 --
 Eugene Kirpichov
 Principal Engineer, Mirantis Inc. http://www.mirantis.com/
 Editor, http://fprog.ru/

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] ANNOUNCE: hxournal-0.5.0.0 - A pen notetaking program written in haskell

[Tom Murphy]

On Dec 14, 2011 1:33 AM, Ian-Woo Kim ianwoo...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi, Ivan,

 I modified hxournal. New source code is now on github repository.
 https://www.github.com/wavewave/hxournal

Are these changes reflected on Hackage?

amindfv / Tom


 Now it has a very rudimentary config file. The config file should be
 located at $HOME/.hxournal

 Sample configuration file is hxournal.conf.sample in hxournal.
 There you can change the name of your X11 device. Current default
 is Core Pointer for core mouse event, stylus for wacom pen,
 eraser for wacom eraser. If you look at the message when hxournal
 start, you will notice what device name your X11 uses. If they are
 different from the default setup, then please change .hxournal file
 according to that.

 I implemented now Use XInput menu in Options menu. So once you
 toggle it, you can choose whether you use wacom input or core mouse
 pointer input. Default starting value of it is also set as xinput
 variable in configuration file (true or false value)

 If you can test this and report to me, I will appreciate it very much.
 It will be hxournal ver 0.5.1 if successful.

 I started hxournal webpage on http://ianwookim.org/hxournal
 and hxournal dev wiki page on github page. From now on, the discussion
 about this development will happen there.

 Thank you .

 best,
 Ian-Woo Kim





 On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 2:42 PM, Ian-Woo Kim ianwoo...@gmail.com wrote:
  Hi, Ivan,
 
  Thank you very much for testing.
  Yes, I need to have many testers.
 
  For your problem, first, please send me the console output of hxournal
  when you start the application.  I guess its stylus name problem in
  X11 setting.
  Currently, the detection of wacom pen in hxournal is by checking
  a xinput device which is named as stylus. (as defined in Xorg.conf
  in /etc/X11/)
  So you need to change X11 name to stylus or modify line 23 of the
  source code csrc/c_initdevice.c  .
 
  I am going to modify this soon.  (not yet figured out how to detect
  the tablet generally,
  so I am thinking of making a configuration file for hxournal which has
  an information of
  the device. )
  It has another problem that it always connects to wacom pen if you
  have wacom tablet, so mouse input is ignored. I need to enable user to
  choose mouse/wacom input.
 
  I released it rather early for getting some attention of interested
people.
  Let me notify you when modifying the code.
 
  Thank you again for your interest.
 
  Ian-Woo
 
 
  On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 8:03 AM, Ivan Perez
  ivanperezdoming...@gmail.com wrote:
  In other news, the program runs, but I can't draw anything. I tried it
  with a wacom and a mouse.
 
  Ian-Woo, let me know if you need me to run some tests or to try a new
  version before you release it.
  As a fan of xournal, I'd be glad to do so.
 
  Cheers,
  Ivan.
 
  On 13 December 2011 14:00, Ivan Perez ivanperezdoming...@gmail.com
wrote:
  Unfortunately, I have all the *-dev packages I need. Like somebody
  else said, it's a different problem.
 
  Linking the file worked for me.
 
  Cheers
 
  On 13 December 2011 02:43, Brandon Allbery allber...@gmail.com
wrote:
  On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 19:22, Ian-Woo Kim ianwoo...@gmail.com
wrote:
 
  A workaround is to make a symbolic link to libstdc++.so.6 with the
  name of libstdc++.so in /usr/lib or /usr/local/lib or other dynamic
  library path like the following.
 
  ln -s /usr/lib/libstdc++.so.6 /usr/lib/libstdc++.so
 
 
  This is an indication that you have not installed your
distribution's -dev
  package for the library in question.  You should do so instead of
making the
  symlink manually.
 
  (cabal has no support for this kind of thing)
 
  --
  brandon s allbery
allber...@gmail.com
  wandering unix systems administrator (available) (412) 475-9364
vm/sms
 

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Why doesn't this work? (palindrome :: IO)

[Tom Murphy]

To clarify, by hack I meant that it seemed like a workaround specifically
to keep case in the OP's code, when it seemed like they were looking for
the functionality of guards.

amindfv / Tom
On Dec 11, 2011 1:39 PM, Yitzchak Gale g...@sefer.org wrote:

 Brandon Allbery wrote:
   case () of
 () | s == reverse s - putStrLn palindrome
 _   - putStrLn nope

 Tom Murphy wrote:
  This is kind of a hack of case, though. I think what the OP was looking
  for is
   isPalindrome word
| (word == reverse word) = putStrLn (word ++  is a palindrome)
| otherwise  = putStrLn (word ++  is not a palindrome)

  Erm?  It's as much of a hack of case as yours is, since the above is
  actually using case.

 I agree with Tom here. While it's true that the compiler
 internally desugars to case, that low-level compiler
 transformation doesn't have much to do with the
 best way to write clear code.

 I find that case often creates code that is more
 confusing and bug-prone. Except when what I
 really want to express is pattern matching, *and*
 there is some specific reason here why I don't
 want to use a named function in a let or where
 binding. Altogether, it doesn't come up very often
 for me.

 And even for styles that use case more than I
 do, certainly there is room to call the use of
 the case () idiom a hack. (Even though I'll
 admit that I do use it sometimes.)

 Regards,
 Yitz

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Why doesn't this work? (palindrome :: IO)

[Tom Murphy]

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 11:46 PM, Brandon Allbery allber...@gmail.comwrote:

 On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 23:24, Alexej Segeda aloscha_den_st...@hotmail.com
  wrote:

 case s of
(s == reverse s)- putStrLn (s ++  is a
 palindrome)
otherwise   - putStrLn (s ++  is not a
 palindrome)


 case does pattern matching, not Boolean expressions.  (s == reverse s) is
 not a useful pattern, and in fact is probably a syntax error because ==is not 
 a valid infix constructor.

 If you want to do Boolean comparisons in a case, you need to use
 something like

  case () of
() | s == reverse s - putStrLn palindrome
_   - putStrLn nope




This is kind of a hack of case, though. I think what the OP was looking for
is

palindrome :: IO ()
palindrome = do putStrLn Type in a word
s - getLine
isPalindrome s

isPalindrome word
  | (word == reverse word) = putStrLn (word ++  is a palindrome)
  | otherwise  = putStrLn (word ++  is not a palindrome)


amindfv / Tom
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Hackage down!

[Tom Murphy]

Is the list the right place to ask about this?
I was trying to access Hackage today too, and didn't know who to let know
about the problem.

amindfv / Tom



On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 11:59 AM, Edgar Gomes Araujo
talktoed...@gmail.comwrote:

 Hi everybody,

 Is hackage.haskell.org down? I'm trying to access it but no answer, no
 ping response (timeout) , nothing.
 Is somebody else facing the same problem?

 Cheers,
 Edgar Gomes

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] lambda.fm How can I use this to help the Haskell community?

[Tom Murphy]

Or set up a system like this:
http://www.linux.fm/
:)

amindfv / Tom

On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 11:38 AM, heathmatlock heathmatl...@gmail.comwrote:

 Stream podcasts on functional programming.

 On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 5:39 AM, Ben Wright bwright...@gmail.com wrote:

 A while back I somehow managed to get the domain name, lambda.fm and I
 am simply creating this post to get some ideas from the community on what
 it could be used for to help the FP community. So tell me what you think.

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[Haskell-cafe] Current Haskell report URL

[Tom Murphy]

 Is there a reason that the Haskell 2010 report is in a subdirectory of
haskell.org/onlinereport (which currently points to the Haskell98 standard)?

http://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/   -- Haskell98
http://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/haskell2010/   -- Haskell2010

If it's for historical reasons - because books etc. use this URL for the 98
standard, then I'd highly recommend making a new directory called
currentreport or something (if there isn't one already).

The current impression that we give is that Haskell98 is the current
standard, and Haskell2010 isn't compiler-supported.

amindfv / Tom
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] A Mascot

[Tom Murphy]

I'm used to (on the east coast US) hearing lambda pronounced LAM-duh.
Duh is an expression of something being stupid, so I don't know about
Haskell having a mascot called Duh the Lamb!

amindfv / Tom
On Nov 16, 2011 4:06 PM, heathmatlock heathmatl...@gmail.com wrote:



 On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 5:54 AM, Jerzy Karczmarczuk 
 jerzy.karczmarc...@unicaen.fr wrote:

 Do you mind some ... how to say ... offside comments?

 1. The Curry Da mascot looks like a penguin disguised as a  lamb. I have
 nothing against penguins !


 Hi Jerry, thanks for your input. The reason to have the the lamb standing
 up is just so he can be dressed, and it does have similarities to a penguin
 with its round belly, I suppose.


 2. Da, da, konech'no, mais, Signori und Demoiselles, do you realize that
 lamb is an English word, and we should think about our multilingual
 society. with our agneaux and other Karakuls. You will have problems with
 the translation of the mascot into German, and some may find some analogies
 with another image:
 http://www.chrisrusak.com/**images/11-013_small.jpghttp://www.chrisrusak.com/images/11-013_small.jpg
 called  Ein liebliches Lämmlein zu Tod (after Des Knaben Wunderhorn, in
 the last part of Mahler 4th Symphony).

 3. On the other hand, from the cultural point of view, this is a very
 good idea, and quite international, everybody knows Lamb Curry (Rogan Josh):
 http://www.route79.com/food/**rogan-josh.htmhttp://www.route79.com/food/rogan-josh.htm


 Some might picture a symphony or what looks like newspaper origami when
 they hear Da, and some might picture food when they hear Curry. I like Da
 because its simple and Da the lamb rolls smoothly off the tongue.
 Probably best to open a poll to and let everyone decide.


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 +1 256 274 4225

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] List archives searchable?

[Tom Murphy]

Cap'n:
http://www.mail-archive.com/haskell-cafe@haskell.org/
But I usually just use a search engine.

Tom / amindfv



On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 4:27 PM, Captain Freako capn.fre...@gmail.comwrote:

 Are the archives of this list searchable?

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] hello Haskell

[Tom Murphy]

The GUI list could definitely use this type of moderation.

Tom / amindfv
On Oct 23, 2011 9:54 PM, Erik de Castro Lopo mle...@mega-nerd.com wrote:

 R J wrote:

  hey Haskell this is nuts http://www.business10i.com
  hey Haskell this is nuts ://xxx.xxx.xxx

 Maybe its time to moderate all newcomers to this list, at least
 until they post one non-spam message to the list.

 If you need volunteers to do this moderation I'll stick my hand up.

 Erik
 --
 --
 Erik de Castro Lopo
 http://www.mega-nerd.com/

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] hello Haskell

[Tom Murphy]

Blocking/unsubscribing people based on their email provider seems... sort of
impolite or unwelcoming.
A greylist could work.
Given the relatively low volume of spam, my vote is for the original
suggestion of first-message-moderated, with the ability to put an address
back on moderation if their account is hacked.

Tom / amindfv
On Oct 23, 2011 11:09 PM, Conrad Parker con...@metadecks.org wrote:

 On 24 October 2011 10:57, Daniel Fischer
 daniel.is.fisc...@googlemail.com wrote:
  On Monday 24 October 2011, 03:54:09, Erik de Castro Lopo wrote:
  R J wrote:
   hey Haskell this is nuts http://www.business10i.com
   hey Haskell this is nuts ://xxx.xxx.xxx
 
  Maybe its time to moderate all newcomers to this list, at least
  until they post one non-spam message to the list.
 
  Just for the record, not a newcomer, and has non-spam messages, e.g.
 
  http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2010-May/077871.html
  http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2010-May/078054.html

 There was a recent hotmail exploit, with people reporting their
 account sent spam, see eg:

 https://plus.google.com/117020778736538274606/posts/4yMP7iDshCf

 I'd be in favor of graylisting or unsubscribing anyone who uses hotmail.

 Conrad.

 
 
  If you need volunteers to do this moderation I'll stick my hand up.
 
  Erik
 
 
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Message

[Tom Murphy]

Ok, I'll bite: what's it need?

- Tom / amindfv


On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 1:51 PM, Albert Y. C. Lai tre...@vex.net wrote:

 On 11-10-21 03:59 AM, Ivan Lazar Miljenovic wrote:

 2011/10/21 Goutam Tmvvo1d_poin...@live.com:

 Would you ever see yourself write a web application like Twitter or
 Facebook
 in Haskell?


 No.  But then, I wouldn't write a web application like either of them
 in _any_ language.


 +1

 The world does not need another Twitter, another Facebook, another Reddit,
 another graphics engine, another database system, or another operating
 system.


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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Is it possible to represent such polymorphism?

[Tom Murphy]

Assuming that z :: Int, you can declare an algebraic datatype
data TwoOrThree a b = Three (a, b, Int)
| Two (a, b)
   deriving(Show, Eq) -- so you can experiment

And then define expand as

expand :: TwoOrThree a b - (a, b, Int)
expand (Three tuple) = tuple
expand (Two (a, b)) = (a, b, 1)

Tom (amindfv)
On Oct 2, 2011 6:04 AM, Du Xi sdiy...@sjtu.edu.cn wrote:
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Fwd: problem with cabal install MissingH-1.1.1.0

[Tom Murphy]

I used to have a lot of cabal problems when running a version of the GHC
installed with MacPorts. I notice you're using homebrew. Maybe that's part
of the problem?

Tom
On Sep 22, 2011 8:11 PM, Mariano Cortesi mcort...@gmail.com wrote:
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Please take the State of Haskell, 2011 survey

[Tom Murphy]

Thanks for running this again: very informative.



We ought to be able to write a library with a Par monad for distributed
parallel algorithms.

If someone were to do this they might want to start here:
http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/simonpj/papers/parallel/monad-par.pdf


I've started thinking about writing a medium sized tutorial, perhaps 60
pages or so, covering everything you need to know to be able to write
production quality Haskell code.

This would be such a valuable resource for the community.

Tom

On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 9:56 AM, Johan Tibell johan.tib...@gmail.comwrote:

 [bcc: haskell@, beginners@]

 Hi all,

 On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 1:21 PM, Johan Tibell johan.tib...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  I've put together a quick, 12-question State of Haskell, 2011 survey:
 
 
 http://blog.johantibell.com/2011/07/its-time-for-this-years-state-of.html
 
  The survey will hopefully give us some insight into how people use
  Haskell and perhaps also some ideas on how Haskell tools and libraries
  could be improved.

 The results of this survey are now available:


 http://blog.johantibell.com/2011/08/results-from-state-of-haskell-2011.html

 Cheers,
 Johan

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] XCode Dependency for HP on Mac

[Tom Murphy]

On 7/30/11, Mark Lentczner m...@glyphic.com wrote:
 Hiho - I'm the maintainer of the Mac installer for HP. I thought I'd
 chime in a bit:


An expert :)

 On Mac OS X, developer tools is essentially synonymous with Xcode.
 That is, to get the set of standard utilities needed for development
 on compiled executables (notably the binutils), you install Xcode.
 True, it also includes the IDE called Xcode, but the vast bulk [...]

Remember everyone: install just the system tools and dev tools (only
haskell required parts), and your install is 1 or 2 GB instead of
11GB.

 As several have pointed out, you can download Xcode for free.

It turns out this is true. It's very hard to find the dl link to an
XCode that doesn't require Lion, but it actually is there.


  (I haven't bought a new Air...
 yet... but perhaps someone can check to see if the Xcode installer is
 one the SSD volume already?)


It doesn't, and it's not on the USB restore disk either.

 It is conceivably possible to build and distribute some of those
 tools, but not the whole bundle. But the difficulty of getting such a
 build just right, and all the pieces in the right place, seems absurd
 to attempt to recreate when Apple has done it, and gives it away for
 free. Apple's versions of bintools also includes many extensions extra
 options for the OS X environment (like supporting multi-arch binaries)
 Finally, there is also licensing questions regarding the parts
 supplied by the OS vendor (headers, stub libs, debug libs, etc)



So in response to the question is there a way to install the HP
without XCode? the answer is pretty much no. Ok. It's a shame, but
thanks for the insight!

Thanks,
Tom

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] XCode Dependency for HP on Mac

[Tom Murphy]

+1 - does anyone know the answer to this?
On Jul 27, 2011 2:04 PM, Chris Smith cdsm...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Wed, 2011-07-27 at 07:20 -0400, Jack Henahan wrote:
 Bundling things with the HP is just going to bloat that download
 and confuse new users more (and my god, the dep-chasing... the
 number of libs that might have to be piled in on top of it could
 be absurd).

 I don't understand this. Are you saying it would be too hard for the
 Haskell Platform maintainers to build the install kits? It seems like
 bundling gcc would be just the thing to solve all the problems with the
 XCode dependency (which I'm now told include not just the install-time
 dependencies, but also the Haskell Platform regularly breaking with
 every new operating system release).

 --
 Chris Smith



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Re: [Haskell-cafe] XCode Dependency for HP on Mac

[Tom Murphy]

On 7/27/11, Richard O'Keefe o...@cs.otago.ac.nz wrote:

 A quick web search for Mac OS X gcc binary turned up
 http://hpc.sourceforge.net/index.php
 with binary releases of GCC 4.6 for Lion and Snow Leopard.

 This requires Developer Tools, but that isn't XCode, and it's
 on the OS X DVD.


Developer Tools is actually what the HP requires. I think it might
be under the XCode umbrella. Still, the Macbook Air doesn't come with
an install for XCode or Developer Tools.

How can gcc require this stuff, though? Doesn't gcc pre-date all of
this stuff by a decade and a half?

Thanks for your time,
Tom

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] XCode Dependency for HP on Mac

[Tom Murphy]

On Jul 27, 2011 3:30 AM, Sean Leather leat...@cs.uu.nl wrote:

 To get XCode on my 10.6 machine, I...


 ... will check out the related discussion:
 http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.cafe/89745


I remember this thread from last month, but several of the details
have changed (availability of the $5 XCode in App Store, for example).

Thanks for your time,
Tom

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[Haskell-cafe] XCode Dependency for HP on Mac

[Tom Murphy]

This may sound ignorant because, well, it is ignorant: I know very
little about the underlying mechanics here.

Installing the Haskell Platform currently requires XCode developer tools.

To get XCode on my 10.6 machine, I...

[*** begin ranty details (skippable)

... was told I could get a free version by registering as an Apple Developer.
So I lie on the forms (phone number and address, for example, are
_required_ fields!), and lie on the  _required_ 2-3 page survey.
I put in a code that they sent to my email (couldn't lie on that!), and log in.
The page tells me, in the exact box that told me if I registered I
could get XCode for free, that I...

*** end ranty details]

...have to either pay to upgrade to their newer OS (10.7: Lion), or
pay $99/year for a Mac OS Developer Membership.

Is there a way to install HP without XCode? Could there be in the
future? I'm tired of dealing with Apple's constant upgrade
requirements, registration requirements, etc., and it seems like a
small function that XCode actually performs in the Haskell development
toolchain.
Again, I'm ignorant of the details and I'm sorry if this is ranty, but
I'd love to hear your reactions.

Thanks!
Tom

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] XCode Dependency for HP on Mac

[Tom Murphy]

On 7/27/11, Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com wrote:

 Installing the Haskell Platform currently requires XCode developer tools.

 To get XCode on my 10.6 machine, I...

 My understanding is that it's about $5 (though I seem to recall
 hearing that they recently made it free), but I don't use OSX so I
 can't really help you.


The choices Apple's given me are OS X 10.7 ($30), or Developer Account
($99/1 year). I don't see XCode available for sale without one of
these two.

 Is there a way to install HP without XCode? Could there be in the
 future? [...] it seems like a
 small function that XCode actually performs in the Haskell development
 toolchain.

 A C compiler (specifically gcc; not sure if anyone has tried GHC with
 clang yet).  Whilst GHC doesn't need to go via C any more, the Haskell
 Platform does come with some libraries that have a C component; GHC is
 also partly written in C (for the RTS if memory serves) though that
 shouldn't be a factor here as you're getting a binary.


If this is the case, couldn't the HP use gcc instead? I'd personally
advocate gcc as standard, not as a workaround, because
a) gcc is FOSS.
b) XCode is 4GB and its functionality is basically orthogonal to the
needs of Haskell developers.

Thanks for your time,
Tom

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[Haskell-cafe] Cloud Haskell

[Tom Murphy]

Is anyone using Cloud Haskell yet? I'm really excited by the possibilities.

Tom
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Cloud Haskell

[Tom Murphy]

As described in Towards Haskell in the Cloud:
http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/simonpj/papers/parallel/

Tom
On Jul 22, 2011 11:01 AM, Antoine Latter aslat...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 8:25 AM, Tom Murphy amin...@gmail.com wrote:
 Is anyone using Cloud Haskell yet? I'm really excited by the
possibilities.


 Do you have a link to what you mean by Cloud Haskell?

 Tom

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Network.Html simpleTable fonts

[Tom Murphy]

Here's the description of simpleTable:
http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/xhtml/3000.2.0.1/doc/html/Text-XHtml-Table.html
(note the attribute lists)

and here's a working example, for a light at the end of the tunnel:


import Network.CGI
import Text.XHtml

main :: IO ()
main = runCGI $ handleErrors $ (output . renderHtml) ourTable

ourTable = body  simpleTable [cellpadding 30, cellspacing 10, border
2, bordercolor gray] [bgcolor aqua, align right, align bottom]
ourTable'

ourTable' = map (map lineToHtml) [[J\nJ\nJay nbsp y, Jay, Jay],
[Leno, -Z, Dilla]]


Tom



On Jul 17, 2011 3:34 PM, william murphy will.t.mur...@gmail.com wrote:
 How does one change the font and size of text in a cells in a simpleTable?
 As in, to change the height, one could state:

 x = simpleTable [] [height 5] exampleTable

 Thanks,

 Will

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Network.Html simpleTable fonts

[Tom Murphy]

Sorry, forgot the important part:

import Network.CGI
import Text.XHtml


main :: IO ()
main = runCGI $ handleErrors $ (output . renderHtml) ourTable


ourTable = body  ourStyle +++ simpleTable [cellpadding 30,
cellspacing 10, border 2, bordercolor gray] [bgcolor aqua, align
right, align bottom] ourTable'

ourTable' = map (map lineToHtml) [[Jay, Jay, Jay], [Leno,
-Z, Dilla]]

ourStyle = style (stringToHtml body { font-size: 50px }) ! [thetype
text/css]

On 7/17/11, Tom Murphy amin...@gmail.com wrote:
 Here's the description of simpleTable:
 http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/xhtml/3000.2.0.1/doc/html/Text-XHtml-Table.html
 (note the attribute lists)

 and here's a working example, for a light at the end of the tunnel:


 import Network.CGI
 import Text.XHtml

 main :: IO ()
 main = runCGI $ handleErrors $ (output . renderHtml) ourTable

 ourTable = body  simpleTable [cellpadding 30, cellspacing 10, border
 2, bordercolor gray] [bgcolor aqua, align right, align bottom]
 ourTable'

 ourTable' = map (map lineToHtml) [[J\nJ\nJay nbsp y, Jay, Jay],
 [Leno, -Z, Dilla]]


 Tom



 On Jul 17, 2011 3:34 PM, william murphy will.t.mur...@gmail.com wrote:
 How does one change the font and size of text in a cells in a
 simpleTable?
 As in, to change the height, one could state:

 x = simpleTable [] [height 5] exampleTable

 Thanks,

 Will


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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Call for GUI examples - Functional Reactive Programming

[Tom Murphy]

Oh! I have a good, small (single-purpose; reusable), useful one!

A text field which tab-completes words or phrases from a dictionary.

Haskeline provides useful (non-FRP) for implementing this, but it
seems like FRP could handle this in an interesting way.

Tom

On 7/10/11, Heinrich Apfelmus apfel...@quantentunnel.de wrote:
 Henning Thielemann wrote:
 Heinrich Apfelmus wrote:

 Question: how would you actually like to describe the guitar simulator
 at a high-level? Did you already wish for some specific combinators?
 Assume that you had something like reactive-banana available and
 imagine that there were a benevolent djinn granting you three new
 primitive combinators of your choice.

 If I would know of appropriate combinators, I would just implement them
 and not ask the djinn. :-)

 Fair enough. :D

 How did you do it with lazy lists? The more I think about it, the more I
 come to the conclusion that it's impossible to implement this without
 duplicating the event data type. As said, the main problem is that you
 want a combinator

 append :: Pattern - Pattern - Pattern

 that plays the second pattern (event sequence, the guitar strum) right
 after the first one. This means that patterns are *finite*, but this
 seems to collide with the requirement that any FRP style  Event  must be
 potentially infinite.

 Once you do implement a small DSL for patterns, everything is fine,
 though, as the Wave.hs example demonstrates.


 Best regards,
 Heinrich Apfelmus

 --
 http://apfelmus.nfshost.com


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[Haskell-cafe] HaskellDB DB Layout Description

[Tom Murphy]

Hi,
 I've found good explanations of the HaskellDB combinators, but I
can't find good information about how to correctly define the database
layout. Can anyone point me to a resource, or give a quick example?

Thanks!
Tom

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Cabal uninstall

[Tom Murphy]

Seconded. This would have been very useful to me many times.

I tried forwarding this to cabal-de...@haskell.org (Cabal development
discussion), but it's a members-only list. Can someone in the in-crowd
pass along the suggestion?

Thanks,
Tom


On 7/9/11, Andrew Pennebaker andrew.penneba...@gmail.com wrote:
 Please add an automated uninstall option for Cabal packages. It's a pain to
 remove them manually, and the user expectation based on other package
 managers (Gem, Aptitude, MacPorts, Homebrew, Yum, Emerge) is that cabal
 uninstall/cabal remove does the intuitive thing: remove packages and
 their dependencies.

 Cheers,

 Andrew Pennebaker
 www.yellosoft.us


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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Installation Failed: Haskell Platform 2011.2.0.1-i386 for OS X

[Tom Murphy]

On 6/28/11, Jason Dagit dag...@gmail.com wrote:

 I'd try asking on StackOverflow.  I think the people who know the
 answer might be watching there instead of here.



Really? I had thought that everyone who was on SO was on here also.

Tom

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] View Thunk Evaluation

[Tom Murphy]

That is so cool! Thank you.

To anyone who's interested: Try it. It's enlightening.

Tom

On 6/26/11, Don Stewart don...@gmail.com wrote:
 Yes, via the -hpc tracing mechanism.

 When executed HPC generates a highlighted log of your source, and
 expressions that aren't evaluated will be marked up in a special
 color.

 On Sun, Jun 26, 2011 at 9:22 PM, Tom Murphy amin...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi All,
     Is there a way to determine whether a thunk was evaluated during
 code's execution?

 Thanks,
 Tom

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[Haskell-cafe] View Thunk Evaluation

[Tom Murphy]

Hi All,
 Is there a way to determine whether a thunk was evaluated during
code's execution?

Thanks,
Tom

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[Haskell-cafe] toSql and fromSql, for Algebraic Data Type

[Tom Murphy]

Hi *,
 The title is self-explanatory. I'd like to store information from
an algebraic data type in an SQL database, but the type signature of
toSql (toSql
  :: Data.Convertible.Base.Convertible a SqlValue = a - SqlValue)
doesn't make sense to me.
 How is this done (how do I make an instance of a typeclass like that?)

Thanks for your time,
Tom

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Best Linux Distro for =

[Tom Murphy]

On 6/19/11, Arlen Cuss cel...@sairyx.org wrote:

 In no particular order, the following seem to have good Linux support:
 Gentoo, Arch, Fedora and Debian (I think Testing).

 Please allow me to register my amusement at the idea of a distribution
 with good Linux support. :D


I was very surprised when I realized that this is sort of true. I had
assumed that most coders are using Linux/BSD, and so the best (most
recent, most stable) version of the Haskell Platform would be the (a)
Linux one.

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell *interpreter* on iPad? (Scheme and Ocaml are there)

[Tom Murphy]

On 6/18/11, Alexander Solla alex.so...@gmail.com wrote:

 Since the iPhone OS is pretty much OS X for ARM, and GHC apparently now
 supports cross-compilation, you can compile GHC for iOS.


Can you provide a link for info? I don't understand how this would be done.

Thanks
Tom

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[Haskell-cafe] Best Linux Distro for =

[Tom Murphy]

Hi List,
   If my choice of Lunix distro depended 100% on its solidness as a
Haskell devel platform (I am), what would you all recommend?

Thanks for your time,
Tom

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Proposal: remove Stability from haddock documentation on hackage

[Tom Murphy]

On 6/7/11, James Cook mo...@deepbondi.net wrote:
[...]

 The name of the field could be better, though.  On first exposure,
 people tend to think stability: experimental or stability:
 unstable means the package is likely to crash (For those who don't
 know, it means the API is likely to change in future releases).


What is the way to indicate actual code stability? Some packages on
Hackage definitely have broken parts.

Tom

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] *GROUP HUG*

[Tom Murphy]

 How about this:

 myFoldr :: (a - b - b) - b - [a] - b
 myFoldr f z xs = foldl' (\s x v - s (x `f` v)) id xs $ z

 Cheers,
 Ivan



Great! Now I really can say Come on! It's fun! I can write foldr with foldl!

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[Haskell-cafe] Erlang's module discussion

[Tom Murphy]

Hi All,
 I sure love Hackage, but there's a very interesting discussion
going on, on the Erlang mailing list, about completely restructuring
the module-model.
 Before you dismiss it as crazy, know that the topic was brought
up by Joe Armstrong, one of the creators of the language.

Here's the archive:
http://erlang.org/pipermail/erlang-questions/2011-May/058769.html

 Food for thought...

Tom

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] *GROUP HUG*

[Tom Murphy]

Firstly, I would definitely like to second the group hug! I'd say best
learning community on the net, that I know of.

On 5/24/11, Ketil Malde ke...@malde.org wrote:
 The point is that at face value, being rude and arrogant may drive away
 naive questions, but is much more likely to result in endless threads of
 discussions of etiquette, usually laced with ample amounts of
 hostility.  This actually decreases signal to noise.

 Also it not only drives away the naive questions, it drives away the
 people asking them.  People who might at some point become informed,
 contributing members of the community.

It also drives away people who don't know if their question is naive
or not. When you don't want to be yelled at, you have a strong
tendency to err on the side of not asking. This slows down learning
significantly, and decreases the number of people who can answer
others' questions in the future.

 Some people quit haskell-cafe for other (better policed?)
 forums, so perhaps we are too liberal?  I hope not.

Does anybody know how much this has happened?


I'm very interested in how we can maintain this amazing resource as
Haskell's user base grows. Will the same etiquette work when we start
to get lots of questions from Java programmers? :)

Tom

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Status of Haskell + Mac + GUIs graphics

[Tom Murphy]

 I still haven't found any way to do GUIs or interactive graphics in Haskell
 on a Mac that isn't plagued one or more of the following serious problems:

 * Incompatible with ghci, e.g., fails to make a window frame or kills the
 process the second time one opens a top-level window,
 * Goes through the X server, and so doesn't look or act like a Mac app,
 * Doesn't support OpenGL.


 If there doesn't currently exist something without these
handicaps, that's a serious problem for the use of Haskell for
developing end-user software.
 If we as a community want to be able to develop software for
end-users (i.e. people who'll be thrown off by gtk widgets or x11
windows)*, then it would be a very good idea to focus our energies on
one or two promising pre-existing libraries, and hammer them into
completion. A roadmap for this could be worked on at Hac Phi?

Just my 2¢,
Tom

*This, of course, would NOT be avoiding success at all costs. :)

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Status of Haskell + Mac + GUIs graphics

[Tom Murphy]

On 5/18/11, Donn Cave d...@avvanta.com wrote:
 Quoth =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jurri=EBn_Stutterheim?= j.stutterh...@me.com,
 ...
 So here's my (perhaps slightly provoking) question: do we need to
 care at all about good GUI toolkits being available? Web applications,
 especially with an HTML 5 front-end, have become increasingly more
 powerful. If we can also find a good, standardized way to generate
 JS from our Haskell code, we're pretty much all set.

 That isn't so controversial - do we need to care about good GUI
 toolkits being available?  Evidently not, we can say that from the
 fact that we're still looking for GUI support on the Mac in 2011.




I'd give three reasons for disagreeing:
1. Developing a complete GUI has been a low priority up until now, but
now that other, more urgent areas of development are starting to
thrive, its time has come.
2. Yes, having essentially no complete GUI support has suited our
needs up until now, but these have been the needs of a certain type of
programmer. IF the community would like to grow, or would like to be
able to use Haskell at work, I'd say a GUI supporting the above would
be very valuable.
3. Using the web as Haskell's main method of non-command line
(graphical) deployment seems to lose two of Haskell's most powerful
features: its type safety, and its speed.
 If we use Haskell essentially as a JS abstraction layer, we lose
all type safety (in the event that anyone goes in and tinkers with the
generated JS).
 A main reason people are showing interest in FP is because of
purity, and therefore its potential speed on multicore machines. If we
just generate to JS, this is also lost. In fact, speed on single-core
machines is lost also.

Again, my 2¢,
Tom

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Status of Haskell + Mac + GUIs graphics

[Tom Murphy]

 My conclusion was that GLFW-b (on hackage) is the best we have right
 now.  I think we could do even better than the C libraries out there
 by writing the GLUT/GLFW/etc implementation purely in Haskell.  We
 already have x11 and gtk bindings for the linux support.  We have
 win32 api bindings for windows support.  What we are lacking is good
 low level support for OSX GUI programming.  Once we have that it's not
 too much of a stretch to use cabal to glue it together into a cross
 platform library.  I believe that's the right way to go for the long
 term.  Improving GLFW-b is a good short-term route.

Would it be possible to do it with wx? There would be a much larger
potential developer pool, since it's cross-platform. (Not getting away
from C libraries, but they're stable).


 And just to say it one more time, I can use all the help I can get.
 There are a lot of yaks to be shaved.  My hope is that if we all shave
 one yak then we'll quickly have the libraries we need to do some
 serious graphics hacking in Haskell.  We already have many good
 libraries for it, we just need to improve and polish a few key
 libraries.  The momentum is here and a few people have already jumped
 in.  Time to get on board!

Count me as onboard; I'm just not sure which ship I'm on yet.

Tom

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] wxHaskell on Mac (Was: Status of Haskell + Mac + GUIs graphics)

[Tom Murphy]

 The tricky bits are that you have to

 1. install wxWidgets by hand, being sure to enable Unicode
and to compile a 32 bit version:

arch_flags=-arch i386
./configure CFLAGS=$arch_flags\
CXXFLAGS=$arch_flags\
CPPFLAGS=$arch_flags\
LDFLAGS=$arch_flags\
OBJCFLAGS=$arch_flags\
OBJCXXFLAGS=$arch_flags\
--enable-unicode

Is there a way to build an installer that would make this process easier?


 Unfortunately, this does not address Conal's issue about using wxHaskell
 with GHCi on Mac.  I do wish somebody had a free week to concentrate on
 the issue.  Maintainer Jeremy made some progress on it, the last time I
 checked...

Do you have the link for the progress so far?


Tom

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Status of Haskell + Mac + GUIs graphics

[Tom Murphy]

On 5/18/11, Jurriën Stutterheim j.stutterh...@me.com wrote:
 Regarding 3:
 I was not implying that Haskell should be used only for replacing JS. Far
 from it. I was just saying that we need a solid way to generate JS from
 Haskell so that we can profit even more from Haskell's type safety and not
 have to suffer from the mess that is JS. My Snap-based application is also
 perfectly type-safe, on the server. It's fast too. :)

Jurriën,
 I completely agree that we need a good JS generator.
 My response was just to the idea that web apps (with JS) could be
a replacement for other GUI solutions. I wasn't implying you were
saying we should only use Haskell for JS. Most useful Haskell apps
right now are pretty GUI-free!

Tom

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Status of Haskell + Mac + GUIs graphics

[Tom Murphy]

On 5/18/11, Manuel M T Chakravarty c...@cse.unsw.edu.au wrote:


 Nevertheless, there are good reasons to develop native applications
 (especially on the Mac with its user-base spoiled by high-end UX).  Luckily,
 the choice of toolkit is trivial in this case.  For Mac OS, we need a
 Haskell-Cocoa binding.  I don't think there are any serious technical
 obstacles to develop one.  Somebody would just have to spend the time and
 effort to write one.


Can anyone point me to a good resource comparing the pros and cons of
developing (say, Cocoa) bindings vs. using a cross-platform library
with native look-and-feel like Wx?

Thanks,
Tom

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Proposal to incorporate Haskell.org

[Tom Murphy]

 Q: Does this mean that my Haskell project must now be covered by a
  copyleft licence such as GPL?
 A: No, but Haskell projects using haskell.org resource should use an
 Open Source licence
  http://www.opensource.org/licenses/alphabetical.


Should == must?
Would this apply to everything on Hackage?

Thanks for clarifying,
Tom

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] why are trading/banking industries seriously adopting FPLs???

[Tom Murphy]

 Why can they assess the risk and the probable benefits of trying out
 another innovation and can contain the risk? Because they can do that of
 almost anything. They are surviving investors. Trying out another innovation
 is just another investment, not unlike trying out another stock, another
 bond, another estate.

 Why can the computer security people not do the same? Because they are
 debuggers, not investors.


I agree with this point, but I think it could be said to have as much or
more to do with the qualities of the field, as the qualities of people in
the field.

 Finance and trading are extremely quantifiable fields. An increase in
speed of execution can fairly accurately be assigned a dollar value in ways
that a field like compute security can't.

 Reasoning about the payoff of switching to another technology becomes
harder. Even after a technology has been successfully adopted, it's hard to
say what the payoffs were! A political climate, where ideas are more
assailable, arises, and people huddle under the shelter of what's commonly
accepted. Quant people might do the same, if they were in that type of
climate.

 In finance, you hear a lot more of Don't believe me? Fine. The results
will speak for themselves.
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