In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on
04/09/2008
at 09:52 AM, Kelman, Tom [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
Hmmm, are we comparing languages a little bit here? When I was an
undergraduate student at Ga. Tech (many years ago) the school computer
was a Burroughs 5500. When I went back for my Masters in Computer
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Arellanes
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 12:21 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
I gotta ask this, hope you don't mind. Why is the code
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 3:12 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
PL/1 is the UnCOBOL
When I was a UofW student in the mid-1970's, they offered a PL/I
course,
but (for some reason) it was a non-credit course for Math/CS students.
-
Too busy
(I believe this was a major factor in the demise of COBOL;
I just cannot resist responding to this (sorry I am so late, I was out of the
office for 2 weeks).
I work on the IBM COBOL compiler, and if you could see the amount of interest,
the number of compiler licenses, the sheer number of COBOL
--snip---
COBOL is the Language of the Future!
unsnip---
PL/1 is the UnCOBOL :-)
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, 2008 2:19 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
On 8 Apr 2008 10:55:13 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Tom Ross)
wrote:
I work on the IBM COBOL compiler, and if you could see the amount of
interest,
the number of compiler licenses, the sheer number of COBOL programmers
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom Ross
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 12:50 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
(I believe this was a major factor in the demise of COBOL;
I just
Grace Hopper would be proud...!
Charles S. Kammer
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom Ross
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 12:50 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
(I believe this was a major
PL/1 is the UnCOBOL
When I was a UofW student in the mid-1970's, they offered a PL/I course, but
(for some reason) it was a non-credit course for Math/CS students.
-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!
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COBOL is more alive today than it was 10 years ago! Demise indeed...
Having recently been downsized from a COBOL shop, I agree.
Some of them can create COBOL code to do things faster than I can do it in SAS.
And, I have been doing SAS for almost 30 years.
Long live COBOL (or for Galactica fans
With TRUNC(STD), I put my money on the SYSLIT AT +4 being a binary
fullword with 10**8 since the ST into MYDATA is storing the remainder of
the divide.
With TRUNC(BIN), this is consistent w/the behaviour of IBM Enterprise
COBOL for z/OS 3.4.1 not using any 64 bit-era instruction, e.g.
Tom,
I was also under the impression that new development on the mainframe was
few and far between.
But I ran a poll a while ago and the results was rather surprising. 28% of
responded that they are developing new applications in COBOL.
(Natural/adabas was 48%.) I was expecting a very low new
On Tue, 8 Apr 2008 13:25:14 -0500, McKown, John wrote:
77 MYDATA PIC S9(8) BINARY.
..
ADD +1 TO MYDATA
In my own code, a simple:
L 6,MYDATA
A 6,PLUS1
ST 6,MYDATA
suffices.
John,
When you get your nice new z10 you will be able to simplify it even
On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 6:22 PM, Ian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Tom,
I was also under the impression that new development on the mainframe was
few and far between.
But I ran a poll a while ago and the results was rather surprising. 28% of
responded that they are developing new applications
On Tue, 8 Apr 2008, Roger Bowler wrote:
John,
When you get your nice new z10 you will be able to simplify it even further:
ASI MYDATA,1
http://publibfp.boulder.ibm.com/epubs/pdf/dz9zr006.pdf
Regards,
Wishful thinking. Managements avowed purpose in life for 3 separate
I gotta ask this, hope you don't mind. Why is the code generation for
fullword binary so weird?
Try TRUNC(OPT), you will get:
LH2,14(0,10) PGMLIT AT +10
A 2,0(0,8)MYDATA
ST2,0(0,8)MYDATA
See the COBOL Performance Tuning
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on
03/28/2008
at 09:00 AM, Don Leahy [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
IMO, you don't need permission to *learn* stuff.
Only if you don't use their system to test your code. If you do then you
have to concern yourself with local policy. Some shops allow it, some
don't.
--
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of O'Brien, David W.
You missed the point.
The previous post to mine mentioned that's it's easier to say
'Sorry' than get permission.
My post was meant to warn of the possible ramifications of
taking that
On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 2:15 PM, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 03/26/2008
at 08:13 AM, Steve Comstock [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
I know the feeling. But we gotta' learn how to do
the new stuff on the mainframe, and let management
see it.
---snip-
Sounds like commentary I've heard about the U.S. legal system: Truth
and justice are irrelevant, so long as procedure is followed precisely.
-jc-
unsnip---
And the lawyers get their (obscene) fees! :-)
On 28 Mar 2008 08:17:13 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Rick Fochtman)
wrote:
Sounds like commentary I've heard about the U.S. legal system: Truth
and justice are irrelevant, so long as procedure is followed precisely.
-jc-
unsnip---
And the lawyers get
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Howard Brazee
On 28 Mar 2008 08:17:13 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Rick Fochtman)
wrote:
Sounds like commentary I've heard about the U.S. legal system:
Truth
and justice are irrelevant, so long as procedure is
On 28 Mar 2008 09:08:48 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Chase, John) wrote:
I think due process is the goal of judicial systems most everywhere.
And people want predictability more than Truth and Justice.
Predictability allows plans to function.Justice might bite us.
Perhaps, to a point. But
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 03/26/2008
at 08:13 AM, Steve Comstock [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
I know the feeling. But we gotta' learn how to do
the new stuff on the mainframe, and let management
see it.
First you have to get management's permission.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and
Not sure, but that may have been Steve's point ;-)
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 1:16 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
In [EMAIL
Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote:
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 03/26/2008
at 08:13 AM, Steve Comstock [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
I know the feeling. But we gotta' learn how to do
the new stuff on the mainframe, and let management
see it.
First you have to get management's permission.
Easier to
snip---
Easier to ask forgiveness that to ask permission.
---unsnip-
A big AMEN to that! Highly unfortunate, but true.
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Also a good way to get fired when you have 'professional managers' more
interested in following change/control procedures than getting the job done. I
speak from experience.
From: Rick Fochtman [Subject: Re: Is IT becoming extinct
Also a good way to get fired when you have 'professional managers' more
interested in following change/control procedures than getting the job done. I
speak from experience.
I am sorry, but I believe in change control.
If you can't follow them, it's your problem.
A process exists for a reason.
not believe it.
Some jobs are not worth having. This was one of them.
From: Ted MacNEIL
Sent: Thu 3/27/2008 10:15 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
Also a good way to get fired when you have 'professional managers' more
interested
Ian wrote:
I did a polls recently to see what new development is happening on CICS
specifically.
The result was very surprising. Out of 190 votes only 5% said that they have
no new development plans.
48% said that the new development is in Natural
28% said COBOL
1. This is based on 190 votes.
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Ted MacNEIL
[ snip ]
One outsourced their development to India because they
couldn't find any new COBOL programmers.
At a price they were willing to pay, perhaps
-jc-
couldn't find any new COBOL programmers.
At a price they were willing to pay, perhaps
Perhaps.
But, the main reason is nobody wanted to live there.
-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!
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On 26 Mar 2008 07:34:32 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ted MacNEIL) wrote:
At a price they were willing to pay, perhaps
Perhaps.
But, the main reason is nobody wanted to live there.
A company has a choice. It can be located where skilled labor is
available and expensive - use external labor -
COBOL isn't sexy anymore. High schools are teaching PC stuff. And yet a
myriad of code being used is on our mainframes.
I once automated myself out of a support job.
I am a dinosaur.
Daniel McLaughlin
Z-Series Systems Programmer
Information Communications Technology
Crawford Company
Howard Brazee wrote:
On 26 Mar 2008 07:34:32 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ted MacNEIL) wrote:
At a price they were willing to pay, perhaps
Perhaps.
But, the main reason is nobody wanted to live there.
A company has a choice. It can be located where skilled labor is
available and
Daniel McLaughlin wrote:
COBOL isn't sexy anymore. High schools are teaching PC stuff. And yet a
myriad of code being used is on our mainframes.
Well, COBOL isn't _percieved_ as sexy anymore.
But you can handle ASCII and UNICODE and XML in COBOL.
You can code COBOL CGIs to run under your z/OS
Poster: Steve Comstock [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
---
Daniel McLaughlin wrote:
COBOL isn't sexy anymore. High schools are teaching PC stuff. And yet
a
myriad of code being
Daniel McLaughlin wrote:
Misstated - COBOL isn't perceived as sexy ,,,
WE have over 500 servers in the room and we call it the chicken farm.
COBOL vs distributed platforms ?
Apples and oranges.
The most popular banking application in Poland is written in COBOL, but
the platform is Unix
On 26 Mar 2008 10:22:03 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (R.S.)
wrote:
BTW: COBOL has serious disadvantages.
(and the war began...)
Every tool has serious disadvantages - because no tool is all things
for all people.
It's not about the language though. IS is about the data.We need
to make sure we
On 24 Mar 2008 14:03:15 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Gerhard Adam)
wrote:
What's much harder for both data processing and for users is to figure
out how to collect and use data that might give us that competitive
advantage - without spending more than the return.
Agreed. But that's a question
On 24 Mar 2008 16:02:53 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Patrick
O'Keefe) wrote:
That depends on who defines competetive advantage.
In most businesses there must be protection of confidential or
proprietary information.
I've heard ads for a company that provides Sales Leads.
Of course, that
From desktops to mainframes and all flavors of servers in between lies a
vast ocean of opportunities for IT folks.
In my daily non-work life I run into people who buy a computer but can't
set it up even following the pictures.
I run into people who don't understand why an undersized PC won't
and into management of information. the role of the
Technocrats is being ever diminished.)
The split between the Business and IT has always been a contrived one. Agile
methodologies recognise this and are successfully (re-)combining the two.
Is IT becoming extinct? Depends what you mean by IT...
I don't
That estimate may be vastly overstated. A large number of in-house COBOL
systems and packages written in COBOL have been replace by things like SAP.
I disagree with that, but there is no (recent) evidence to support it either
way.
The last studies I saw were for Y2K, and there was still a lot
I did a polls recently to see what new development is happening on CICS
specifically.
The result was very surprising. Out of 190 votes only 5% said that they have
no new development plans.
48% said that the new development is in Natural
28% said COBOL
The poll results is over here
http://blogs.zdnet.com/projectfailures/?p=666
(Not from where I'm standing - but I might not be standing the right
place)
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[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Howard Brazee
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 09:01
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Is IT becoming extinct?
http://blogs.zdnet.com/projectfailures/?p=666
(Not from where I'm standing - but I might not be standing the right
place
Since this is a family list G I cannot use the true language needed to
Express my opinion. I will have to paraphrase!
Horse Manure!
While many of the points are valid, the conclusion is not.
Remember CASE and then case? Where are they now?
snip
http://blogs.zdnet.com/projectfailures/?p=666
---snip
Howard Brazee wrote:
http://blogs.zdnet.com/projectfailures/?p=666
(Not from where I'm standing - but I might not be standing the right place)
-unsnip-
As a whole, I disagree with the article as well.
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Staller, Allan
Since this is a family list G I cannot use the true
language needed to
Express my opinion. I will have to paraphrase!
Horse Manure!
The phonetic alphabet is your friend here: Bravo Sierra, or
]','','','')[EMAIL
PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Howard Brazee
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 09:01
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Is IT becoming extinct?
http://blogs.zdnet.com/projectfailures/\?p=666
(Not from where I'm standing - but I might not be standing the right
place
The following message is a courtesy copy of an article
that has been posted to bit.listserv.ibm-main,alt.folklore.computers as well.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Doc Farmer) writes:
You're standing in the right place - the author, however, is not. While he
brings up valid points, these are correctable
Chase, John wrote:
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Staller, Allan
Since this is a family list G I cannot use the true
language needed to
Express my opinion. I will have to paraphrase!
Horse Manure!
The phonetic alphabet is your friend
Predicators of the mainframe demise are probably of the same genre as those
experts (who have probably never opened a science book) who are expounding
the dangers of this global warming nonsense.
Dick
Rick Fochtman [EMAIL PROTECTED] 3/24/2008 11:10 AM
Chase, John wrote:
-Original
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Richard Bond
Predicators of the mainframe demise are probably of the same
genre as those experts (who have probably never opened a
science book) who are expounding the dangers of this global
warming nonsense.
Michael Krigsman is just jumping on Nicholas Carr's bandwagon.
Carr has been beating the IT is dying drum for a long time. (
http://www.nicholasgcarr.com/articles/matter.html)
Mostly, I think, for the free advertising for his books.
Ian
http://www.cicsworld.com
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ian
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 11:55 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
Michael Krigsman is just jumping on Nicholas Carr's bandwagon.
Carr has been
).
If our CEOs read about IT becoming extinct, then we should know about
the arguments that he reads about.Whether we think of it as a
battle (only fools go to war without studying the enemy), or whether
we think of these alternative technologies as allies in doing our jobs
- we should analyze
On 24 Mar 2008 09:54:44 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Chase, John) wrote:
I doubt seriously that the mainframe is going away, ha ha; rather, it
is frequently wearing new clothes in the form of penguin tuxedos and
other non-traditional garb. :-)
But my particular mainframe skills are likely to need
I believe Corporate IT departments will be utilized for a long time; however,
such organizations will just become paper-pushers and mouse-clickers (or a
paper-pusher/mouse-clicker) in the long run, utilizing third party vendors,
VARs, and such, for their overall IT HW and SW maintenances.
More in Nicolas Carr from my favorite pundit.
Carr-ied away: http://www.issurvivor.com/ArticlesDetail.asp?ID=651
Carr-toonish engineering:
http://www.issurvivor.com/ArticlesDetail.asp?ID=652
Lately he has had a series of columns on how some employers are requiring
their employees to buy their
Predicators of the mainframe demise are probably of the same genre as
those experts (who have probably never opened a science book) who are
expounding the dangers of this global warming nonsense.
Why is it that experts that expound global warming are fools, but
experts that denounce it are
More in Nicolas Carr from my favorite pundit.
Carr-ied away: http://www.issurvivor.com/ArticlesDetail.asp?ID=651
Carr-toonish engineering:
http://www.issurvivor.com/ArticlesDetail.asp?ID=652
There is also some truth in these articles, and they should be carefully
considered. One problem is
On 24 Mar 2008 13:26:16 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Gerhard Adam)
wrote:
Similarly, even though many applications components are commodities, many
other elements are also assumed, so resources need to be expended to live up
to the expectation. For example, in the past while response time was
What's much harder for both data processing and for users is to figure
out how to collect and use data that might give us that competitive
advantage - without spending more than the return.
Agreed. But that's a question that's independent of technology. That isn't
to say that technology
Adam said
Sometimes IT organizations forget that they didn't invent information,
they simply are a means of managing it.
...and sometimes not even managing it. Often enough IT is arguably just
a vessel in which corporate information resides and it's a vessel that
fights the business tooth and
On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 18:16:11 -0400, Craddock, Chris
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
...and sometimes not even managing it. Often enough IT is arguably
just
a vessel in which corporate information resides and it's a vessel that
fights the business tooth and nail every day. It is more of a necessary
On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 08:27:36 -0500, Rick Fochtman wrote:
As a whole, I disagree with the article as well. But it DOES raise a few
valid points. The biggest point I see is the error of letting the
purchasing dept. decide what software to purchase, rather than the
technicians and/or users. It's
In a recent note, Richard Bond said:
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 12:24:32 -0400
Predicators of the mainframe demise are probably of the same genre
as those experts (who have probably never opened a science
book) who are expounding the dangers of this global warming nonsense.
Troll.
ever diminished.)
The split between the Business and IT has always been a contrived one. Agile
methodologies recognise this and are successfully (re-)combining the two.
Is IT becoming extinct? Depends what you mean by IT...
I don't think IT is becoming extinct (yet...) but the need for businesses
data processing and for users is to figure
out how to collect and use data that might give us that competitive
advantage - without spending more than the return.
re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008f.html#81 Is IT becoming extinct?
in much the same way that hardware started to become commoditized
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