In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on
01/16/2008
at 09:47 AM, Kelman, Tom [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
I agree. I think that a background in anything that is logically and
mathematical is the best training for programming. I once worked with a
fellow that had a degree in music. Although being a musician
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 01/14/2008
at 03:12 PM, Gary Green [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
UWaterloo allum, huh... Ever encounter 'P1'? ggg
It was a load of laughs. Of course, that wasn't what the author intended
;-)
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
ISO position; see
On 16 Jan 2008 07:47:20 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Kelman,
Tom) wrote:
I agree. I think that a background in anything that is logically and
mathematical is the best training for programming. I once worked with a
fellow that had a degree in music. Although being a musician requires
an artistic
In a message dated 1/16/2008 10:17:07 A.M. Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
students with non-Computer Science backgrounds attempt a Master's degree.
Some were more natural at it than others, and those with the following two
undergraduate majors seemed the best able to
This appeared yesterday:
http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=205601557
---
...
Americans don't appear to be rushing to gain the IT-related skills that
organizations are looking for. The National Center for Education finds that
only 13%
On 15 Jan 2008 09:33:09 -0800, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote:
This appeared yesterday:
http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=205601557
---
...
Americans don't appear to be rushing to gain the IT-related skills that
organizations are
education and certification
in mathematics, let alone computer and business skills, the National
Center for Education finds.
this and other aspects/posts in similar thread in a.f.c
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008.html#44 Computer Science Education: Where Are
the Software Engineers of Tomorrow
: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software
Engineers
of Tomorrow?
This appeared yesterday:
http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=20560155
7
---
...
Americans don't appear to be rushing to gain the IT-related skills
The following message is a courtesy copy of an article
that has been posted to bit.listserv.ibm-main as well.
re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008b.html#2 Computer Science Education: Where Are
the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?
and related new post ... also in a.f.c ... about newly published
snip
Is a computer science education either necessary or desirable for
doing systems programming? business programming? being a DBA or data
administrator? As someone who has been a systems programmer and an
applications programmer, the only
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on
01/11/2008
at 01:22 PM, Jon Brock [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
Anyway, I'm not so sure I hold to the it's just another language
mindset as much as I used to. It seems to me that there are important
differences between the way you conceive of and design a program in
In
[EMAIL PROTECTED],
on 01/11/2008
at 06:41 PM, Ted MacNEIL [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
I have always believed that there are three mind-sets.
Then you need to learn more languages.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
ISO position; see
A good APL programmer thinks in terms of manipulating entire arrays.
I always had fun with it in University, but I only worked with it at one
company (1981).
I still have Iverson's book.
A friend of mine used to work for I.P. Sharp on the development team for their
version of APL.
The service
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 5:53 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the
Software Engineers of Tomorrow
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ted MacNEIL
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 10:22 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the
Software Engineers of Tomorrow?
[snip]
far back). I
---snip-
My position is that the CS department should be teaching multiple
languages in the first semester, carefully chosen to offer variety in
the semantics and syntax. The intent should be to teach the Perl mantra
Education: Where Are the
Software Engineers of Tomorrow?
In
[EMAIL PROTECTED], on
01/11/2008
at 01:22 PM, Jon Brock [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
Anyway, I'm not so sure I hold to the it's just another language
mindset as much as I used to. It seems to me that there are
important
From before I ever got into programming, I always thought APL was real
programming language! It even looked like one.
The only problem I had with APL was that it was easier to re-write than debug.
Glad I learned modular programming (all the fad in the mid-1970's).
-
Too busy driving to stop
I agree, in general, but I would insert one caveat: some form of assembler
language should be included, as well as a variety of higher-level languages.
That's the way it was at UWaterloo.
But, I didn't learn IBM Assembler until 3rd year.
It was Honeywell in first year.
If I were to set up a
Rick Fochtman wrote:
TMTOWTDI.
--unsnip-
?
http://www.greythumb.org/blog/index.php?/archives/7-T.M.T.O.W.T.D.I..html
--
Edward E Jaffe
Phoenix Software International, Inc
5200 W Century Blvd, Suite 800
Los Angeles, CA 90045
310-338-0400 x318
[EMAIL
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Fochtman
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 11:57 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the
Software Engineers of Tomorrow
UWaterloo allum, huh... Ever encounter 'P1'? ggg
Those who have been around since the 70's get the reference...
On Mon Jan 14 18:09 , Ted MacNEIL [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent:
I agree, in general, but I would insert one caveat: some form of assembler
language should be included, as well as a
UWaterloo allum, huh... Ever encounter 'P1'?
Read the adolescense of when it first came out.
Saw the movie.
Mr. Pone.
-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!
--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
Hi,
I surrender :
Do you guys get paid for the number of postings you make to public email
lilsts ?
Do you get hired based on the number of junk email jou can send all over the
World ?
Conclusion :
There is no way that you can claim you are doing this accidently or that you
want to Create
Well, I could tell you I never had to debug an APL program... But I would also
need to tell you I only wrote some Proof of Conpept programs and they did not
count. ;)
On Mon Jan 14 17:57 , Ted MacNEIL [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent:
From before I ever got into programming, I always thought APL was
When people talk informally about Computer Science Education they tend
to commingle very different topics:
- how to educate computer scientists
- those who teach computer science
- those who advance the state of the art in tools such as
- compilers
- machine intelligence
- how to
/~lynn/2008.html#44 Computer Science Education: Where Are
the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008.html#46 Computer Science Education: Where Are
the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008.html#56 Computer Science Education: Where Are
the Software
On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:13:53 -0500, Jon Brock [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
...
http://developers.slashdot.org/developers/08/01/08/0348239.shtml
http://www.stsc.hill.af.mil/CrossTalk/2008/01/0801DewarSchonberg.ht
ml
...
Since the other thread on this topic went off in a seriously OT
direction I'll
The authors were discussing the use of Java as the students' *first*
programming language.
Anyway, I'm not so sure I hold to the it's just another language
mindset as much as I used to. It seems to me that there are important
differences between the way you conceive of and design a program in
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Howard Brazee
[ snip ]
There isn't an awfully lot of conceptual difference between
programming a report on CoBOL or creating a video on iMovie.
On the contrary, there is a fundamental difference:
In
Some OO languages produce lots of memory leaks in the real world - but there
aren't nearly so many memory leaks in the procedural world.
Is that the fault of the compiler or the programmer?
When I learned C++, I was taught about cleaning up after yourself, just like I
was with COBOL or
And one of the biggest problems with OOP is the use of object libraries. For
__beginning__ students, using OOP usually means just wiring together a
number of pre-existing objects, or maybe just
extending an existing object. WITHOUT REALLY KNOWING HOW THE OBJECT WORKS!
Unfortunately, using
Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Edward Jaffe
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 9:57 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software
Engineers of Tomorrow?
Gibney, Dave wrote:
Why should what
On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:08:51 EST, Ed Finnell [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
...
good test for CS students. I picture a blank stare on the student's
faces, but I would love to be shown wrong.
...
Usually what we'd do is get Knuth's book and translate from MIX to
whatever
was required. Radix
: Friday, January 11, 2008 8:12 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software
Engineers
of Tomorrow?
On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:13:53 -0500, Jon Brock [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
...
http://developers.slashdot.org/developers/08/01/08/0348239.shtml
http
Gibney, Dave wrote:
Why should what language is taught matter, after the second or third
language, IF you are a programmer, it's just another language. Mostly
syntax, some semantics.
Agreed. But, the closer to the metal a language takes you, the more
about the metal you learn.
The
In a message dated 1/11/2008 10:57:00 A.M. Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
good test for CS students. I picture a blank stare on the student's
faces, but I would love to be shown wrong.
Usually what we'd do is get Knuth's book and translate from MIX to whatever
was
On 11 Jan 2008 11:46:08 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ted MacNEIL) wrote:
Does it matter where the fault is?
Yes, I believe it does.
If memory leaks are a problem, they have to be resolved, just like any coding
issue.
If it's the programmer - train or dismiss.
If it's the compiler - get it fixed.
On 11 Jan 2008 11:35:40 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (McKown,
John) wrote:
For an experienced programmer, this is a boon. But it totally defeats
the purpose for a beginner. They end up knowing very little and create
crappy code. In C, programmers just use the qsort() function to sort
stuff. And it is
On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:45:59 -0700, Howard Brazee
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
...
It depends on what the craft of the programming is supposed to be.
The
reason for making efficient code is to save the company money. If the
programmer turned some of his attention towards understanding the
users'
On Fri, 2008-01-11 at 13:22 -0500, Jon Brock wrote:
It seems to me that there are important
differences between the way you conceive of and design a program in
assembler/COBOL/C versus, say, Ruby or Java.
+1 (as the kids say).
IMO the finest undergraduate programming textbook is Abelson and
Does it matter where the fault is?
Yes, I believe it does.
If memory leaks are a problem, they have to be resolved, just like any coding
issue.
If it's the programmer - train or dismiss.
If it's the compiler - get it fixed.
-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ted MacNEIL
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 1:06 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the
Software Engineers of Tomorrow?
And one
It seems to me that there are important differences between the way you
conceive of and design a program in assembler/COBOL/C versus, say, Ruby or
Java.
I have always believed that there are three mind-sets.
1. Assembler/machine language.
2. Procedural languages (COBOL, etc.).
3. Object
On 11 Jan 2008 11:07:52 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ted MacNEIL) wrote:
Some OO languages produce lots of memory leaks in the real world - but there
aren't nearly so many memory leaks in the procedural world.
Is that the fault of the compiler or the programmer?
When I learned C++, I was taught
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ted MacNEIL
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 12:41 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the
Software Engineers of Tomorrow?
It seems to me
On 11 Jan 2008 10:41:55 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ted MacNEIL) wrote:
I have always believed that there are three mind-sets.
1. Assembler/machine language.
2. Procedural languages (COBOL, etc.).
3. Object oriented.
As you go from 1 to 3, you have less details to worry about, as the compiler
On 11 Jan 2008 10:57:04 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (McKown,
John) wrote:
And one of the biggest problems with OOP is the use of object
libraries. For __beginning__ students, using OOP usually means just
wiring together a number of pre-existing objects, or maybe just
extending an existing object.
The original article said software engineer, not programmer.
It wasn't explicitly stated, but I think that implies some element of
design, not just implementing. While that might include picking the
best existing solution it also includes creating a new solution if the
best is not good.
On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:05:59 +, Ted MacNEIL wrote:
And one of the biggest problems with OOP is the use of object libraries.
For __beginning__ students, using OOP usually means just wiring together a
number of pre-existing objects, or maybe just
extending an existing object. WITHOUT REALLY
From the first link below:
jfmiller call to our attention two professors emeritus of computer
science at New York University who have penned an article titled
Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of
Tomorrow? in which they berate their university, and others
Here is a posting and accompanying article on Slashdot which you may enjoy.
http://developers.slashdot.org/developers/08/01/08/0348239.shtml
http://www.stsc.hill.af.mil/CrossTalk/2008/01/0801DewarSchonberg.html
Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?
It is our
: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?
It is our view that Computer Science (CS) education is neglecting basic
skills, in particular in the areas of programming and formal methods. We
consider that the general adoption of Java as a first programming language
is in part responsible
On Tue, 8 Jan 2008 07:36:26 -0600, Paul Gilmartin
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
...
The conspicuous naivete exhibited in most of the postings to a recent
ASSEMBLER-LIST thread concerning coding the exponential function
sugests
that assembler programmers are hardly better than Java
programmers in
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