Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC Abolish Narrow Margins

On 7 February 2019 08:38:54 GMT+00:00, Zeev Suraski wrote: >> It's the only definition we currently have. > >That's not exactly true. We have the definition that was actually >agreed >upon in the original Voting RFC, and while it's hardly great - it's >clearly >different from the voting base we

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC Abolish Narrow Margins

On Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at 10:42 AM Pierre Joye wrote: > On Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at 3:39 PM Zeev Suraski wrote: > > > It has to do with the relative power > > of the code contributors, vs. folks who aren't code contributors who > > presently have a vote even though they're not supposed to have one

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC Abolish Narrow Margins

On Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at 3:39 PM Zeev Suraski wrote: > It has to do with the relative power > of the code contributors, vs. folks who aren't code contributors who > presently have a vote even though they're not supposed to have one based on > the rules agreed upon back in the day. This is not

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC Abolish Narrow Margins

On Wed, Feb 6, 2019 at 9:06 PM Niklas Keller wrote: > > I'll reiterate my main two issues with this RFC: > > - I do think that we need 50%+1 votes for certain decisions. Naming the > > next version of PHP, or even deciding to release it outside of the yearly > > cycle should not require a 2/3

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC Abolish Narrow Margins

Morning Dmitry, I've cleaned up the proposal section to refer to the normative text section, but it remains to make clear that we are applying these rules to all RFCs (including policy amendments). Cheers Joe On Wed, 6 Feb 2019 at 22:12, Dmitry Stogov wrote: > > > On 2/6/19 8:28 PM, Joe

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC Abolish Narrow Margins

On 2/6/19 8:28 PM, Joe Watkins wrote: > Afternoon Dmitry, Nikita, > > I've cleaned that up to read "changes to PHP" rather than talking about > merges, apologies for the confusion, just used the wrong words. > > To re-iterate what Nikita said, this is not about changing what requires > an

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC Abolish Narrow Margins

Hi! > Thanks for the feedback. I have added a new section to the RFC with the > precise change that will be applied to the voting RFC: > https://wiki.php.net/rfc/abolish-narrow-margins#normative_text I think explaining the changes clearly is a good addition, but I wonder if we should be

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC Abolish Narrow Margins

> I'll reiterate my main two issues with this RFC: > - I do think that we need 50%+1 votes for certain decisions. Naming the > next version of PHP, or even deciding to release it outside of the yearly > cycle should not require a 2/3 vote. It's not so much erring on the side > of being

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC Abolish Narrow Margins

Afternoon Dmitry, Nikita, I've cleaned that up to read "changes to PHP" rather than talking about merges, apologies for the confusion, just used the wrong words. To re-iterate what Nikita said, this is not about changing what requires an RFC, and not about forcing every change to require an RFC;

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC Abolish Narrow Margins

On Wed, Feb 6, 2019 at 4:38 PM Dmitry Stogov wrote: > > > On 2/6/19 11:50 AM, Nikita Popov wrote: > > On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 1:59 PM Joe Watkins wrote: > > > >> Afternoon internals, > >> > >> Some time ago I brought up for discussion: > >> https://wiki.php.net/rfc/abolish-narrow-margins > >> >

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC Abolish Narrow Margins

On 2/6/19 11:50 AM, Nikita Popov wrote: > On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 1:59 PM Joe Watkins wrote: > >> Afternoon internals, >> >> Some time ago I brought up for discussion: >> https://wiki.php.net/rfc/abolish-narrow-margins >> >> I intend to bring this up for vote in the next few days. >> >> Cheers

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC Abolish Narrow Margins

On Fri, Feb 1, 2019 at 1:38 PM Nikita Popov wrote: > On Fri, Feb 1, 2019 at 6:16 AM Stanislav Malyshev > wrote: > >> Hi! >> >> > Let me reply to the last point first, because I think that's really the >> > crux here: The issue is not that this RFC is very urgent per se, it's >> that >> > it has

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC Abolish Narrow Margins

On Wed, Feb 6, 2019 at 10:50 AM Nikita Popov wrote: > More importantly, while our past RFCs in the area of "packaging" have not > been particularly major, that's isn't a property inherent to the category. > For example, a proposal to introduce regular LTS releases, or to make other > major

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC Abolish Narrow Margins

On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 1:59 PM Joe Watkins wrote: > Afternoon internals, > > Some time ago I brought up for discussion: > https://wiki.php.net/rfc/abolish-narrow-margins > > I intend to bring this up for vote in the next few days. > > Cheers > Joe > After one day of heated discussion this

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC Abolish Narrow Margins

On Fri, Feb 1, 2019 at 6:16 AM Stanislav Malyshev wrote: > Hi! > > > Let me reply to the last point first, because I think that's really the > > crux here: The issue is not that this RFC is very urgent per se, it's > that > > it has already been delayed numerous times and it is imperative that

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC Abolish Narrow Margins

Morning Stas, and all, This discussion was ... a mess, partly my fault, I suppose. I said I was going to bring it up for voting quickly on the say so of Nikita, and because it feels urgent to us, you can guess our reasons for that. I'm not going to argue back and forth for the next week about

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC Abolish Narrow Margins

Hi! > Let me reply to the last point first, because I think that's really the > crux here: The issue is not that this RFC is very urgent per se, it's that > it has already been delayed numerous times and it is imperative that we > prevent that from happening again. Since this issue was first

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC Abolish Narrow Margins

Hi, On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 5:28 PM Zeev Suraski wrote: > > Secondly - the threshold and voting eligibility are not, in any way, > independent. They're two fundamental aspects of the same topic - how votes > take place. A 2/3 majority out of a subset of ~200-300 people is very > different from

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC Abolish Narrow Margins

On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 7:00 PM Nikita Popov wrote: > Let me reply to the last point first, because I think that's really the > crux here: The issue is not that this RFC is very urgent per se, it's that > it has already been delayed numerous times and it is imperative that we > prevent that from

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC Abolish Narrow Margins

On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 4:27 PM Zeev Suraski wrote: > > > On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 4:55 PM Nikita Popov wrote: > >> I agree with Joe here that we should handle the question of voting margins >> separately. Your RFC is a much more comprehensive reform, which contains a >> number of points that

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC Abolish Narrow Margins

On 1/31/19 7:23 PM, Joe Watkins wrote: > Hi Zeev, Dmitry, > > It is not my only concern, I'm grateful for the clarification whatever. > > These are your actual words from the RFC: > > > This works, but this functionality is not supported on all libffi > platforms, it is not efficient and

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC Abolish Narrow Margins

On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 5:56 PM Joe Watkins wrote: > When I refer to "you", I really mean you and Dmitry, while you don't have > a hive mind, you do act as one, or for one another in a lot of cases. If > I'm wrong about that, I apologise. > You are wrong, apology accepted. > > I would say

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC Abolish Narrow Margins

Hi Zeev, Dmitry, It is not my only concern, I'm grateful for the clarification whatever. These are your actual words from the RFC: > This works, but this functionality is not supported on all libffi platforms, it is not efficient and leaks resources by the end of request. It's recommended to

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC Abolish Narrow Margins

On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 6:09 PM Dmitry Stogov wrote: > The fact that FFI may leak, is because it uses "unmanaged memory" (like > in real C). PHP reference counting and GC just can't handle all the > cases. It's impossible to automatically know what to do with C pointer, > when we get it from

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC Abolish Narrow Margins

Hi Joe, On 1/31/19 6:56 PM, Joe Watkins wrote: > Afternoon Zeev, > >> I'll happily take your interpretation of it. No hard feelings. > > Thanks, you know I don't have another way of being :) > > When I refer to "you", I really mean you and Dmitry, while you don't have a > hive mind, you do

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC Abolish Narrow Margins

Afternoon Zeev, > I'll happily take your interpretation of it. No hard feelings. Thanks, you know I don't have another way of being :) When I refer to "you", I really mean you and Dmitry, while you don't have a hive mind, you do act as one, or for one another in a lot of cases. If I'm wrong

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC Abolish Narrow Margins

On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 4:55 PM Nikita Popov wrote: > I agree with Joe here that we should handle the question of voting margins > separately. Your RFC is a much more comprehensive reform, which contains a > number of points that look highly controversial to me (such as the eligible > voter

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC Abolish Narrow Margins

On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 4:27 PM Joe Watkins wrote: > Afternoon Zeev, > > I'm going to use unambiguous and direct language to make sure my intentions > and concerns are communicated clearly, you can either receive this as a > personal attack, or as a contributor being direct, I would prefer the >

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC Abolish Narrow Margins

On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 2:07 PM Zeev Suraski wrote: > >-Original Message- > >From: Joe Watkins > >Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2019 2:59 PM > >To: internals@lists.php.net > >Subject: [PHP-DEV] RFC Abolish Narrow Margins > > > >Afternoon in

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC Abolish Narrow Margins

> > > > For the record, I resent the language you used and the mal-intentions you > attribute to me here. I’ll leave it at that. > > > > Zeev > > > > *From:* Joe Watkins > *Sent:* Thursday, January 31, 2019 3:26 PM > *To:* Zeev Suraski > *Cc:* internals

RE: [PHP-DEV] RFC Abolish Narrow Margins

PM To: Zeev Suraski Cc: internals@lists.php.net Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC Abolish Narrow Margins Afternoon Zeev, I imagine you will not like what I have to say either: In light of the recent actions you have taken and are taking to push incomplete software into php-src on narrow margins

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC Abolish Narrow Margins

Joe Watkins > >Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2019 2:59 PM > >To: internals@lists.php.net > >Subject: [PHP-DEV] RFC Abolish Narrow Margins > > > >Afternoon internals, > > > >Some time ago I brought up for discussion: > >https://wiki.php.net/rfc/abol

RE: [PHP-DEV] RFC Abolish Narrow Margins

>-Original Message- >From: Joe Watkins >Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2019 2:59 PM >To: internals@lists.php.net >Subject: [PHP-DEV] RFC Abolish Narrow Margins > >Afternoon internals, > >Some time ago I brought up for discussion: >https://wiki.php.net/rfc/abol

[PHP-DEV] RFC Abolish Narrow Margins

Afternoon internals, Some time ago I brought up for discussion: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/abolish-narrow-margins I intend to bring this up for vote in the next few days. Cheers Joe

[PHP-DEV] RFC: Abolish Narrow Margins

Afternoon internals, Some time ago I brought up for discussion: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/abolish-narrow-margins I intend to bring this up for vote in the next few days. Cheers Joe

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] abolish narrow margins

Hi! > Things which don't effect the language, but are more of a question of > preference - e.g., the decision to name phpng as PHP 6 vs PHP 7 - or for > that matter, deciding about a different release cadence. It's one thing to That's one of the places where 50% or plurality vote would be

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] abolish narrow margins

On 12.07.2018 at 10:10, Zeev Suraski wrote: > I think the problem is that there are cases where a 2/3 vote (or a vote at > all) doesn't make sense. True, we didn't have too many of those in the > past - but as we reform, I think it's important to take note of them. > Things which don't effect

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] abolish narrow margins

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 7:38 AM Joe Watkins wrote: > Zeev, > > > I think our voting rules are in need of a much thorough review than just > pushing the limit to 2/3 - which also IMHO doesn't tackle the difference > scenarios that exist out there. > > Agree, they need reform, but rather than

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] abolish narrow margins

Zeev, > I think our voting rules are in need of a much thorough review than just pushing the limit to 2/3 - which also IMHO doesn't tackle the difference scenarios that exist out there. Agree, they need reform, but rather than trying to discuss and pass a monolithic RFC that tries to solve all

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] abolish narrow margins

On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 7:10 PM, Andrea Faulds wrote: > 2/3+1 is silly, though. 2/3 already means there's twice as many agreeing as > disagreeing, having +1 doesn't serve the tie-breaking function there that it > does for 50%+1. But that was indeed a knife-edge RFC, it was actually saved > by

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] abolish narrow margins

Hey Sara, Sara Golemon wrote: I don't remember the specifics about integer semantics (which fell precisely on 2/3 and thus would have failed the +1 check), but again I'll offer than perhaps both needed more discussion, and maybe shouldn't have passed. *shrug* -Sara 2/3+1 is silly, though.

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] abolish narrow margins

Hi! > See > and particularly . Ah yes, thanks, I thought I remembered something like that. It's a bit old but still good. Looks like the number of RFCs that would suffer from move to 2/3 is very low, thus I think it's a good

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] abolish narrow margins

On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 5:12 PM, Christoph M. Becker wrote: > and particularly . > Interesting, better than I'd thought actually. It's odd that the 64bit stuff was the one that was < 2/3rds. iirc the only honestly contentious thing about that was the potential to break existing extensions (which

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] abolish narrow margins

Am 11.07.2018 um 20:18 schrieb Stanislav Malyshev: > That said, I'd love to see how many of the accepted RFCs we have now > were actually accepted by margin between 50%+1 and 2/3 and what they > are, if the number is very low maybe it's irrelevant. Unfortunately I > don't have time to do it

RE: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] abolish narrow margins

> -Original Message- > From: Joe Watkins [mailto:krak...@php.net] > Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2018 7:41 PM > To: PHP internals > Subject: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] abolish narrow margins > > Afternoon internals, > > I'd like to bring https://wiki.php.net/rfc/abo

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] abolish narrow margins

> On Jul 11, 2018, at 12:10, Sara Golemon wrote: > > On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 12:41 PM, Joe Watkins wrote: >> I'd like to bring https://wiki.php.net/rfc/abolish-narrow-margins to vote >> in the very near future ... >> >> We discussed it a year ago, and discussion died down to nothing

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] abolish narrow margins

On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 12:19 PM Stanislav Malyshev wrote: > > Hi! > > > We discussed it a year ago, and discussion died down to nothing (possibly > > because it was sidetracked); If there are no objections I'll bring it to > > vote in the coming days ... > > I tend to agree with the sentiment,

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] abolish narrow margins

Hi! > We discussed it a year ago, and discussion died down to nothing (possibly > because it was sidetracked); If there are no objections I'll bring it to > vote in the coming days ... I tend to agree with the sentiment, but not 100%. I think there are two kinds of changes - one kind is more

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] abolish narrow margins

On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 12:41 PM, Joe Watkins wrote: > I'd like to bring https://wiki.php.net/rfc/abolish-narrow-margins to vote > in the very near future ... > > We discussed it a year ago, and discussion died down to nothing (possibly > because it was sidetracked); If there are no objections

[PHP-DEV] [RFC] abolish narrow margins

Afternoon internals, I'd like to bring https://wiki.php.net/rfc/abolish-narrow-margins to vote in the very near future ... We discussed it a year ago, and discussion died down to nothing (possibly because it was sidetracked); If there are no objections I'll bring it to vote in the coming days