[The Java Posse] Re: Package by feature or layer?
like a user DAO or DTO that might be used in almost all the features? I think a core/common feature would be a great place to put it. To not expose dependencies of core to other features I'd also introduce a common feature that all features can depend on, then common can be implemented by stuff in core. On Monday, August 10, 2009 2:57:46 PM UTC+2, Rob Wilson - BabyDuke JUG wrote: I like the idea of organizing the packages by feature, but I wonder where you put the common code, or code that is used in a couple of places? For example, the domain objects might not fit exclsuvely in one feature - like a user DAO or DTO that might be used in almost all the features? I guess I would struggle to decide where supporting classes should live, are there any tips to getting this right? Cheers, Rob. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Java Posse group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[The Java Posse] Re: Package by feature or layer?
Maybe User is just overloaded with meaning and should really be split up into multiple classes (or traits if you have them) each focused on their role in their respective package? Or maybe User shouldn't be in any of them, maybe User is just the mechanics to implement a specific feature which should be isolated to its own feature-package implementing the services the other features need? BR, John On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 2:57 PM, Rob Wilson - BabyDuke JUGnetp...@gmail.com wrote: I like the idea of organizing the packages by feature, but I wonder where you put the common code, or code that is used in a couple of places? For example, the domain objects might not fit exclsuvely in one feature - like a user DAO or DTO that might be used in almost all the features? I guess I would struggle to decide where supporting classes should live, are there any tips to getting this right? Cheers, Rob. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[The Java Posse] Re: Package by feature or layer?
I like the idea of organizing the packages by feature, but I wonder where you put the common code, or code that is used in a couple of places? For example, the domain objects might not fit exclsuvely in one feature - like a user DAO or DTO that might be used in almost all the features? I guess I would struggle to decide where supporting classes should live, are there any tips to getting this right? Cheers, Rob. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[The Java Posse] Re: Package by feature or layer?
This sort of thing is terribly difficult to discuss without concrete examples. For shared domain stuff, you can usually still identify an intersecting level higher up in the hierarchy no and aim to have these as abstract as possible no? In some ways it reminds me of the hard part of doing REST, you can't just throw your stuff into a bucket, you really need to think hard about it and give refactoring tools their prime time. /Casper On 10 Aug., 14:57, Rob Wilson - BabyDuke JUG netp...@gmail.com wrote: I like the idea of organizing the packages by feature, but I wonder where you put the common code, or code that is used in a couple of places? For example, the domain objects might not fit exclsuvely in one feature - like a user DAO or DTO that might be used in almost all the features? I guess I would struggle to decide where supporting classes should live, are there any tips to getting this right? Cheers, Rob. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[The Java Posse] Re: Package by feature or layer?
Here is an interesting real-life experience regarding this topic, although C# was used :) http://richarddingwall.name/2009/08/08/real-life-ddd-organise-code-by-responsibility-layers-not-repositories-and-services/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[The Java Posse] Re: Package by feature or layer?
On Jun 13, 1:15 pm, Christian Beil christian.a.b...@gmail.com wrote: What is your opinion on that? I'm especially interested in what you think about structuring packages? Do youpackageby layer (ie dao,service,controller,...) or do youpackagebyfeature? I think the IDE should let you tag stuff, so you can use the view that makes the most sense for whatever it is you are doing. So the packages could be by feature, but you could use the Controller, Repository, Service, etc. tag to view things in layers. Maybe the tags could even be derived directly from EJB3 or Spring annotations. This is kind of like the where should private methods go? debate: at the end of the file, or close to where they are used? If the IDE could give you a view that gives a good view of the method and the methods it uses, this wouldn't be an issue. Mwanji --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[The Java Posse] Re: Package by feature or layer?
The thing is, NetBeans (and even Java itself) is no longer just used for imperative programming where you can simply agree to conform to a 120 character line. Just staying with JEE technologies, we require editing files full of Facelet/XML, JavaScript, SQL/JPQL annotation etc. It's particular painful not having soft wrapping when dealing with embedded DSL's like SQL/JPQL, since Java does not support multiline strings making it next to impossible to copy-paste code between tools - unless you are OK with one humongous line (one String token). Soft wrapping has been pushed a few times thus far, I think I remember Jaroslav Tulac mention how hard it actually would be to do given the existing functionality of the editor. Still lets hope we'll get it eventually. :) /Casper On 19 Jun., 02:49, Augusto augusto.sellh...@gmail.com wrote: I like this comment from the bug report; This feature is necessary, for simple usability because is impossible read a line code with thousands columns. A line of code should never have thousands of columns. On Jun 18, 7:49 pm, TorNorbye tor.nor...@gmail.com wrote: On Jun 18, 4:26 pm, TorNorbye tor.nor...@gmail.com wrote: On Jun 18, 11:18 am, Erlend Hamnaberg ngar...@gmail.com wrote: Don't get me started on the deficiency of Netbeans. This feature is a must and has been in all others IDEs forever. Maybe it's been in all other IDEs forever, but I just fired up Eclipse 3.4 and I can't find it. I'm sure it's there but I'm too stupid to find it. Where is it? (By the way I found Search Java but I don't think that's the same feature; I'm looking for something similar to Eclipse's Open Type dialog where you can instantly see filtered results as you're typing, where you don't have to tell it whether you're looking for a method or field, where you jump to the declaration (the default in that dialog only shows references, etc.) -- Tor Why the hell isn't JAVA a language that needs attention in Netbeans? Since this is written in Java, why isn't this the main language supported Java is the LEAST developed language of them all. You reallly need to focus on your main language, which should be Java. I really like Netbeans. But until you get REAL editor support for JAVA, I can't use it. Please define real. -- Tor --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[The Java Posse] Re: Package by feature or layer?
I suppose it is too much of a religious war but I would love more discussion of code style. You will have to gauge other fans but I like to hear it hashed out. Pick a coding practice of the week (good or bad) and riff on it for 5 minutes. I now am an anti-tab evangelist! Coding standards are a very key thing in development after reading Clean Code I am even keener on it. On Jun 19, 5:51 am, Casper Bang casper.b...@gmail.com wrote: The thing is, NetBeans (and even Java itself) is no longer just used for imperative programming where you can simply agree to conform to a 120 character line. Just staying with JEE technologies, we require editing files full of Facelet/XML, JavaScript, SQL/JPQL annotation etc. It's particular painful not having soft wrapping when dealing with embedded DSL's like SQL/JPQL, since Java does not support multiline strings making it next to impossible to copy-paste code between tools - unless you are OK with one humongous line (one String token). Soft wrapping has been pushed a few times thus far, I think I remember Jaroslav Tulac mention how hard it actually would be to do given the existing functionality of the editor. Still lets hope we'll get it eventually. :) /Casper On 19 Jun., 02:49, Augusto augusto.sellh...@gmail.com wrote: I like this comment from the bug report; This feature is necessary, for simple usability because is impossible read a line code with thousands columns. A line of code should never have thousands of columns. On Jun 18, 7:49 pm, TorNorbye tor.nor...@gmail.com wrote: On Jun 18, 4:26 pm, TorNorbye tor.nor...@gmail.com wrote: On Jun 18, 11:18 am, Erlend Hamnaberg ngar...@gmail.com wrote: Don't get me started on the deficiency of Netbeans. This feature is a must and has been in all others IDEs forever. Maybe it's been in all other IDEs forever, but I just fired up Eclipse 3.4 and I can't find it. I'm sure it's there but I'm too stupid to find it. Where is it? (By the way I found Search Java but I don't think that's the same feature; I'm looking for something similar to Eclipse's Open Type dialog where you can instantly see filtered results as you're typing, where you don't have to tell it whether you're looking for a method or field, where you jump to the declaration (the default in that dialog only shows references, etc.) -- Tor Why the hell isn't JAVA a language that needs attention in Netbeans? Since this is written in Java, why isn't this the main language supported Java is the LEAST developed language of them all. You reallly need to focus on your main language, which should be Java. I really like Netbeans. But until you get REAL editor support for JAVA, I can't use it. Please define real. -- Tor --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[The Java Posse] Re: Package by feature or layer?
I recently view the Google Tech Talks on Clean Code, and I hae to say htat I'm becoming more and more adverse to dereferencing things that are not either passed into the constructor of the object at hand, or into the mthod being invoked. (I.e. No calls to singletons) When combined with Scala's excellent implicit parameters and currying, it becomes _very_ easy to deal with without losing testability. Cheers, On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 2:43 PM, E Winter ejwin...@gmail.com wrote: I suppose it is too much of a religious war but I would love more discussion of code style. You will have to gauge other fans but I like to hear it hashed out. Pick a coding practice of the week (good or bad) and riff on it for 5 minutes. I now am an anti-tab evangelist! Coding standards are a very key thing in development after reading Clean Code I am even keener on it. On Jun 19, 5:51 am, Casper Bang casper.b...@gmail.com wrote: The thing is, NetBeans (and even Java itself) is no longer just used for imperative programming where you can simply agree to conform to a 120 character line. Just staying with JEE technologies, we require editing files full of Facelet/XML, JavaScript, SQL/JPQL annotation etc. It's particular painful not having soft wrapping when dealing with embedded DSL's like SQL/JPQL, since Java does not support multiline strings making it next to impossible to copy-paste code between tools - unless you are OK with one humongous line (one String token). Soft wrapping has been pushed a few times thus far, I think I remember Jaroslav Tulac mention how hard it actually would be to do given the existing functionality of the editor. Still lets hope we'll get it eventually. :) /Casper On 19 Jun., 02:49, Augusto augusto.sellh...@gmail.com wrote: I like this comment from the bug report; This feature is necessary, for simple usability because is impossible read a line code with thousands columns. A line of code should never have thousands of columns. On Jun 18, 7:49 pm, TorNorbye tor.nor...@gmail.com wrote: On Jun 18, 4:26 pm, TorNorbye tor.nor...@gmail.com wrote: On Jun 18, 11:18 am, Erlend Hamnaberg ngar...@gmail.com wrote: Don't get me started on the deficiency of Netbeans. This feature is a must and has been in all others IDEs forever. Maybe it's been in all other IDEs forever, but I just fired up Eclipse 3.4 and I can't find it. I'm sure it's there but I'm too stupid to find it. Where is it? (By the way I found Search Java but I don't think that's the same feature; I'm looking for something similar to Eclipse's Open Type dialog where you can instantly see filtered results as you're typing, where you don't have to tell it whether you're looking for a method or field, where you jump to the declaration (the default in that dialog only shows references, etc.) -- Tor Why the hell isn't JAVA a language that needs attention in Netbeans? Since this is written in Java, why isn't this the main language supported Java is the LEAST developed language of them all. You reallly need to focus on your main language, which should be Java. I really like Netbeans. But until you get REAL editor support for JAVA, I can't use it. Please define real. -- Tor -- Viktor Klang Scala Loudmouth --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[The Java Posse] Re: Package by feature or layer?
Just as a side-note, I'm not drunk, my wireless keyboard is just low on battery... On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 2:50 PM, Viktor Klang viktor.kl...@gmail.comwrote: I recently view the Google Tech Talks on Clean Code, and I hae to say htat I'm becoming more and more adverse to dereferencing things that are not either passed into the constructor of the object at hand, or into the mthod being invoked. (I.e. No calls to singletons) When combined with Scala's excellent implicit parameters and currying, it becomes _very_ easy to deal with without losing testability. Cheers, On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 2:43 PM, E Winter ejwin...@gmail.com wrote: I suppose it is too much of a religious war but I would love more discussion of code style. You will have to gauge other fans but I like to hear it hashed out. Pick a coding practice of the week (good or bad) and riff on it for 5 minutes. I now am an anti-tab evangelist! Coding standards are a very key thing in development after reading Clean Code I am even keener on it. On Jun 19, 5:51 am, Casper Bang casper.b...@gmail.com wrote: The thing is, NetBeans (and even Java itself) is no longer just used for imperative programming where you can simply agree to conform to a 120 character line. Just staying with JEE technologies, we require editing files full of Facelet/XML, JavaScript, SQL/JPQL annotation etc. It's particular painful not having soft wrapping when dealing with embedded DSL's like SQL/JPQL, since Java does not support multiline strings making it next to impossible to copy-paste code between tools - unless you are OK with one humongous line (one String token). Soft wrapping has been pushed a few times thus far, I think I remember Jaroslav Tulac mention how hard it actually would be to do given the existing functionality of the editor. Still lets hope we'll get it eventually. :) /Casper On 19 Jun., 02:49, Augusto augusto.sellh...@gmail.com wrote: I like this comment from the bug report; This feature is necessary, for simple usability because is impossible read a line code with thousands columns. A line of code should never have thousands of columns. On Jun 18, 7:49 pm, TorNorbye tor.nor...@gmail.com wrote: On Jun 18, 4:26 pm, TorNorbye tor.nor...@gmail.com wrote: On Jun 18, 11:18 am, Erlend Hamnaberg ngar...@gmail.com wrote: Don't get me started on the deficiency of Netbeans. This feature is a must and has been in all others IDEs forever. Maybe it's been in all other IDEs forever, but I just fired up Eclipse 3.4 and I can't find it. I'm sure it's there but I'm too stupid to find it. Where is it? (By the way I found Search Java but I don't think that's the same feature; I'm looking for something similar to Eclipse's Open Type dialog where you can instantly see filtered results as you're typing, where you don't have to tell it whether you're looking for a method or field, where you jump to the declaration (the default in that dialog only shows references, etc.) -- Tor Why the hell isn't JAVA a language that needs attention in Netbeans? Since this is written in Java, why isn't this the main language supported Java is the LEAST developed language of them all. You reallly need to focus on your main language, which should be Java. I really like Netbeans. But until you get REAL editor support for JAVA, I can't use it. Please define real. -- Tor -- Viktor Klang Scala Loudmouth -- Viktor Klang Scala Loudmouth --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[The Java Posse] Re: Package by feature or layer?
One of thing missing is an Inline Variable refactoring. I use that, along extract local variable, almost constantly while hacking code with eclipse. Also, the code formatter won't format to our exact code style at the moment either, although can't remember which bit exactly it doesn't handle. On Jun 18, 8:20 pm, Bill Robertson billrobertso...@gmail.com wrote: On Jun 18, 2:18 pm, Erlend Hamnaberg ngar...@gmail.com wrote: I really like Netbeans. But until you get REAL editor support for JAVA, I can't use it. Can't read your mind, so what do you feel is missing? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[The Java Posse] Re: Package by feature or layer?
To get back to the initial topic, Tor, would you discuss 'package by layer' vs. 'package by feature' on the podcast? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[The Java Posse] Re: Package by feature or layer?
On Jun 18, 7:23 pm, Peter Becker peter.becker...@gmail.com wrote: I feel similar. NetBeans is quite nice in many regards, but generally lacking in terms of code hygiene. Between NetBeans not even auto-formatting generated code and Eclipse fixing dozens of things as Save Actions a lot is still to be done. The little macro feature in Netbeans won't work for that? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[The Java Posse] Re: Package by feature or layer?
Save Actions. Yeah, I can see that that would be useful. I know the
hard part has already been done (there's a new action for removing
trailing whitespace for modified lines only, and they added some
infrastructure for save-time actions for that) so what's left is an
options panel for letting you choose arbitrary editor actions and then
hooking these up to the save-actions infrastructure.
Shouldn't take more than a few hours to code up. I'll take a stab at
it maybe this weekend and report back.
-- Tor
On Jun 18, 4:23 pm, Peter Becker peter.becker...@gmail.com wrote:
I feel similar. NetBeans is quite nice in many regards, but generally
lacking in terms of code hygiene. Between NetBeans not even
auto-formatting generated code and Eclipse fixing dozens of things as
Save Actions a lot is still to be done.
Let me elaborate. The premise is that I'm a bloody lazy guy, always
trying to care about the least amount of things possible (partly due to
bad memory ;-) ). So my standard Eclipse setup is configured to do a lot
of things on save:
* format code (on most projects only lines I changed since I don't want
messy commits)
* optimize imports (remove unnecessary, apply rules on use of .*, sort)
* add missing @Override and @Deprecated annotations
* remove trailing whitespace
* add missing braces
* add final to private members if possible
Having Eclipse do that for me on every save means I don't have to care
anymore. I like the code I read to be very neat, but I don't want to
bother writing neat code myself, with my Eclipse setup I can write:
for(Class obj: getSomething()) doSomething();
and Eclipse will turn it into:
for(Class obj: getSomething()) {
doSomething();
}
or
for(Class obj: getSomething())
{
doSomething();
}
depending on the project I'm working on (implied here is that I don't
bother thinking about a project's coding style either once my Eclipse is
all set up).
On the opposite end is NetBeans, where I have to constantly call the
code formatter and the import optimization. How can it not run at least
the generated code through a formatter?
It lacks the nice copy imports with bits of code that use them, too.
It's good enough that I don't need to look at the import list, but it
certainly makes me think about imports more.
Otherwise I quite like NetBeans, but I really notice that it's lack of
automated code hygiene draws some of my attention away from solving real
problems to dealing with trivialities. Therefore it is currently not my
Java IDE, although I still use it for Groovy and JavaScript.
So all you NetBeans devs on this list: there is some feedback of someone
too lazy to file bug reports ;-)
Peter
Casper Bang wrote:
Yes NetBeans HAS come a very long way but it's true its not there yet.
For me, one of the few really big things missing now is line wrapping.
I see people requesting this on the bug tracker almost every single
day.
/Casper
On 18 Jun., 20:48, Ryan Waterer aguitadel...@gmail.com wrote:
Erlend,
Netbeans has come a very long way in the last couple of years.
Since Tor has been talking about NetBeans, and the other Posse members have
commented how fantastic it is, I decided to look into it again back in
March. I now develop exclusively using Netbeans at home, and have started
the process of switching over at work.
I suggest taking another look at it. :)
--Ryan
On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 12:18 PM, Erlend Hamnaberg
ngar...@gmail.comwrote:
Don't get me started on the deficiency of Netbeans. This feature is a must
and has been in all others IDEs forever.
Why the hell isn't JAVA a language that needs attention in Netbeans?
Since this is written in Java, why isn't this the main language supported
Java is the LEAST developed language of them all.
You reallly need to focus on your main language, which should be Java.
I really like Netbeans. But until you get REAL editor support for JAVA, I
can't use it.
Just my rant on on a Thursday.
- Erlend
On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 7:15 PM, TorNorbye tor.nor...@gmail.com wrote:
Regarding IDEs can only help to search for a class if I know its
name.:
As of NetBeans 6.5 you can search for symbols too (Navigate Go To
Symbol -- Ctrl-Shift-Cmd-O), not just classes - I use that sometimes
when I can't remember the class name. If I remember the method, or
field, I'm after I just use Go To Symbol to find it which takes me to
the right class.
-- Tor
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[The Java Posse] Re: Package by feature or layer?
Bill Robertson wrote: On Jun 18, 7:23 pm, Peter Becker peter.becker...@gmail.com wrote: I feel similar. NetBeans is quite nice in many regards, but generally lacking in terms of code hygiene. Between NetBeans not even auto-formatting generated code and Eclipse fixing dozens of things as Save Actions a lot is still to be done. The little macro feature in Netbeans won't work for that? Good point -- while I was aware of the macro feature I didn't really think of using it. It would help in that I can set up a macro to call the formatter and the organize imports, then save. It's still not what Eclipse offers, e.g. you can't format just changed lines and I don't think NetBeans covers all of the more advanced things such as adding finals. But I should try such a setup, I don't really know why I didn't come up with it myself. But even if it works: I think NetBeans should emphasize code hygiene more. Being able to write a macro for it is better than having to write a plugin, but it still is a conceptual burden and it won't be trivial to spread across a project. With the Eclipse approach the Save Actions can be configured as part of the project's configuration, then any developer on the project will automatically use them (assuming you check in your Eclipse config, but in an Eclipse shop that makes sense). Of course the problem is that you can't default to anything because whatever you chose as default 95% of the audience will disagree :-) Peter --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[The Java Posse] Re: Package by feature or layer?
I had the same feeling when reading that article -- but I stopped arguing about any flavor of hungarian notation a while ago. Unless someone uses it on projects I work on, that is :-) But it is good to see I was not the only one offended. The other things I noticed is that (a) most of the stuff I don't care about (such as where the private members go) and (b) his equals(..) implementation is dodgy -- but I resisted going off on my little personal crusade of hunting down all the weirdness OO caused in terms of defining equality, because then I would start ranting about why there should be no Object.equals(..) to begin with :-) Peter TorNorbye wrote: I'll try to remember to bring it up. This is the kind of thing I suspect the other three guys will be more passionate about than myself. After seeing this thread earlier in the week I went to read the JavaWorld article and I couldn't get past the first point the author made! http://blogs.sun.com/tor/entry/code_advice_15_don_t On Jun 19, 8:03 am, Christian Beil christian.a.b...@gmail.com wrote: To get back to the initial topic, Tor, would you discuss 'package by layer' vs. 'package by feature' on the podcast? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[The Java Posse] Re: Package by feature or layer?
Don't get me started on the deficiency of Netbeans. This feature is a must and has been in all others IDEs forever. Why the hell isn't JAVA a language that needs attention in Netbeans? Since this is written in Java, why isn't this the main language supported Java is the LEAST developed language of them all. You reallly need to focus on your main language, which should be Java. I really like Netbeans. But until you get REAL editor support for JAVA, I can't use it. Just my rant on on a Thursday. - Erlend On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 7:15 PM, TorNorbye tor.nor...@gmail.com wrote: Regarding IDEs can only help to search for a class if I know its name.: As of NetBeans 6.5 you can search for symbols too (Navigate Go To Symbol -- Ctrl-Shift-Cmd-O), not just classes - I use that sometimes when I can't remember the class name. If I remember the method, or field, I'm after I just use Go To Symbol to find it which takes me to the right class. -- Tor --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[The Java Posse] Re: Package by feature or layer?
On Jun 18, 2:18 pm, Erlend Hamnaberg ngar...@gmail.com wrote: I really like Netbeans. But until you get REAL editor support for JAVA, I can't use it. Can't read your mind, so what do you feel is missing? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[The Java Posse] Re: Package by feature or layer?
Yes NetBeans HAS come a very long way but it's true its not there yet. For me, one of the few really big things missing now is line wrapping. I see people requesting this on the bug tracker almost every single day. /Casper On 18 Jun., 20:48, Ryan Waterer aguitadel...@gmail.com wrote: Erlend, Netbeans has come a very long way in the last couple of years. Since Tor has been talking about NetBeans, and the other Posse members have commented how fantastic it is, I decided to look into it again back in March. I now develop exclusively using Netbeans at home, and have started the process of switching over at work. I suggest taking another look at it. :) --Ryan On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 12:18 PM, Erlend Hamnaberg ngar...@gmail.comwrote: Don't get me started on the deficiency of Netbeans. This feature is a must and has been in all others IDEs forever. Why the hell isn't JAVA a language that needs attention in Netbeans? Since this is written in Java, why isn't this the main language supported Java is the LEAST developed language of them all. You reallly need to focus on your main language, which should be Java. I really like Netbeans. But until you get REAL editor support for JAVA, I can't use it. Just my rant on on a Thursday. - Erlend On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 7:15 PM, TorNorbye tor.nor...@gmail.com wrote: Regarding IDEs can only help to search for a class if I know its name.: As of NetBeans 6.5 you can search for symbols too (Navigate Go To Symbol -- Ctrl-Shift-Cmd-O), not just classes - I use that sometimes when I can't remember the class name. If I remember the method, or field, I'm after I just use Go To Symbol to find it which takes me to the right class. -- Tor --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[The Java Posse] Re: Package by feature or layer?
Casper Bang wrote: Yes NetBeans HAS come a very long way but it's true its not there yet. For me, one of the few really big things missing now is line wrapping. Can you elaborate? -- Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager Tidalwave s.a.s. - We make Java work. Everywhere. weblogs.java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici - www.tidalwave.it/blog fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it - mobile: +39 348.150.6941 --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[The Java Posse] Re: Package by feature or layer?
Casper Bang wrote: Sure, but it really would be faster to just guide you to the top 4'th voted item on the issue tracker: http://www.netbeans.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=89894 Thanks. -- Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager Tidalwave s.a.s. - We make Java work. Everywhere. weblogs.java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici - www.tidalwave.it/blog fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it - mobile: +39 348.150.6941 --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[The Java Posse] Re: Package by feature or layer?
On Jun 18, 11:18 am, Erlend Hamnaberg ngar...@gmail.com wrote: Don't get me started on the deficiency of Netbeans. This feature is a must and has been in all others IDEs forever. Maybe it's been in all other IDEs forever, but I just fired up Eclipse 3.4 and I can't find it. I'm sure it's there but I'm too stupid to find it. Where is it? Why the hell isn't JAVA a language that needs attention in Netbeans? Since this is written in Java, why isn't this the main language supported Java is the LEAST developed language of them all. You reallly need to focus on your main language, which should be Java. I really like Netbeans. But until you get REAL editor support for JAVA, I can't use it. Please define real. -- Tor --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[The Java Posse] Re: Package by feature or layer?
Yeah, NetBeans should add soft word wrapping. Eclipse doesn't have it either (except for a third party plugin, currently at version 0.0.2, which doesn't work with some languages and apparently breaks line numbering) - but people coming to NetBeans from for example TextMate certainly miss this feature. It doesn't affect me personally since I have a wide display and I don't want lines longer than 120 chars (at that point I break it up) but given that it's considered important by many users it should definitely be given some priority. Apparently it's somewhat tricky to implement on top of all the other magic that happens in the editor. -- Tor On Jun 18, 12:34 pm, Casper Bang casper.b...@gmail.com wrote: Yes NetBeans HAS come a very long way but it's true its not there yet. For me, one of the few really big things missing now is line wrapping. I see people requesting this on the bug tracker almost every single day. /Casper On 18 Jun., 20:48, Ryan Waterer aguitadel...@gmail.com wrote: Erlend, Netbeans has come a very long way in the last couple of years. Since Tor has been talking about NetBeans, and the other Posse members have commented how fantastic it is, I decided to look into it again back in March. I now develop exclusively using Netbeans at home, and have started the process of switching over at work. I suggest taking another look at it. :) --Ryan On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 12:18 PM, Erlend Hamnaberg ngar...@gmail.comwrote: Don't get me started on the deficiency of Netbeans. This feature is a must and has been in all others IDEs forever. Why the hell isn't JAVA a language that needs attention in Netbeans? Since this is written in Java, why isn't this the main language supported Java is the LEAST developed language of them all. You reallly need to focus on your main language, which should be Java. I really like Netbeans. But until you get REAL editor support for JAVA, I can't use it. Just my rant on on a Thursday. - Erlend On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 7:15 PM, TorNorbye tor.nor...@gmail.com wrote: Regarding IDEs can only help to search for a class if I know its name.: As of NetBeans 6.5 you can search for symbols too (Navigate Go To Symbol -- Ctrl-Shift-Cmd-O), not just classes - I use that sometimes when I can't remember the class name. If I remember the method, or field, I'm after I just use Go To Symbol to find it which takes me to the right class. -- Tor --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[The Java Posse] Re: Package by feature or layer?
On Jun 18, 4:26 pm, TorNorbye tor.nor...@gmail.com wrote: On Jun 18, 11:18 am, Erlend Hamnaberg ngar...@gmail.com wrote: Don't get me started on the deficiency of Netbeans. This feature is a must and has been in all others IDEs forever. Maybe it's been in all other IDEs forever, but I just fired up Eclipse 3.4 and I can't find it. I'm sure it's there but I'm too stupid to find it. Where is it? (By the way I found Search Java but I don't think that's the same feature; I'm looking for something similar to Eclipse's Open Type dialog where you can instantly see filtered results as you're typing, where you don't have to tell it whether you're looking for a method or field, where you jump to the declaration (the default in that dialog only shows references, etc.) -- Tor Why the hell isn't JAVA a language that needs attention in Netbeans? Since this is written in Java, why isn't this the main language supported Java is the LEAST developed language of them all. You reallly need to focus on your main language, which should be Java. I really like Netbeans. But until you get REAL editor support for JAVA, I can't use it. Please define real. -- Tor --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[The Java Posse] Re: Package by feature or layer?
I like this comment from the bug report; This feature is necessary, for simple usability because is impossible read a line code with thousands columns. A line of code should never have thousands of columns. On Jun 18, 7:49 pm, TorNorbye tor.nor...@gmail.com wrote: On Jun 18, 4:26 pm, TorNorbye tor.nor...@gmail.com wrote: On Jun 18, 11:18 am, Erlend Hamnaberg ngar...@gmail.com wrote: Don't get me started on the deficiency of Netbeans. This feature is a must and has been in all others IDEs forever. Maybe it's been in all other IDEs forever, but I just fired up Eclipse 3.4 and I can't find it. I'm sure it's there but I'm too stupid to find it. Where is it? (By the way I found Search Java but I don't think that's the same feature; I'm looking for something similar to Eclipse's Open Type dialog where you can instantly see filtered results as you're typing, where you don't have to tell it whether you're looking for a method or field, where you jump to the declaration (the default in that dialog only shows references, etc.) -- Tor Why the hell isn't JAVA a language that needs attention in Netbeans? Since this is written in Java, why isn't this the main language supported Java is the LEAST developed language of them all. You reallly need to focus on your main language, which should be Java. I really like Netbeans. But until you get REAL editor support for JAVA, I can't use it. Please define real. -- Tor --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[The Java Posse] Re: Package by feature or layer?
I feel similar. NetBeans is quite nice in many regards, but generally
lacking in terms of code hygiene. Between NetBeans not even
auto-formatting generated code and Eclipse fixing dozens of things as
Save Actions a lot is still to be done.
Let me elaborate. The premise is that I'm a bloody lazy guy, always
trying to care about the least amount of things possible (partly due to
bad memory ;-) ). So my standard Eclipse setup is configured to do a lot
of things on save:
* format code (on most projects only lines I changed since I don't want
messy commits)
* optimize imports (remove unnecessary, apply rules on use of .*, sort)
* add missing @Override and @Deprecated annotations
* remove trailing whitespace
* add missing braces
* add final to private members if possible
Having Eclipse do that for me on every save means I don't have to care
anymore. I like the code I read to be very neat, but I don't want to
bother writing neat code myself, with my Eclipse setup I can write:
for(Class obj: getSomething()) doSomething();
and Eclipse will turn it into:
for(Class obj: getSomething()) {
doSomething();
}
or
for(Class obj: getSomething())
{
doSomething();
}
depending on the project I'm working on (implied here is that I don't
bother thinking about a project's coding style either once my Eclipse is
all set up).
On the opposite end is NetBeans, where I have to constantly call the
code formatter and the import optimization. How can it not run at least
the generated code through a formatter?
It lacks the nice copy imports with bits of code that use them, too.
It's good enough that I don't need to look at the import list, but it
certainly makes me think about imports more.
Otherwise I quite like NetBeans, but I really notice that it's lack of
automated code hygiene draws some of my attention away from solving real
problems to dealing with trivialities. Therefore it is currently not my
Java IDE, although I still use it for Groovy and JavaScript.
So all you NetBeans devs on this list: there is some feedback of someone
too lazy to file bug reports ;-)
Peter
Casper Bang wrote:
Yes NetBeans HAS come a very long way but it's true its not there yet.
For me, one of the few really big things missing now is line wrapping.
I see people requesting this on the bug tracker almost every single
day.
/Casper
On 18 Jun., 20:48, Ryan Waterer aguitadel...@gmail.com wrote:
Erlend,
Netbeans has come a very long way in the last couple of years.
Since Tor has been talking about NetBeans, and the other Posse members have
commented how fantastic it is, I decided to look into it again back in
March. I now develop exclusively using Netbeans at home, and have started
the process of switching over at work.
I suggest taking another look at it. :)
--Ryan
On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 12:18 PM, Erlend Hamnaberg ngar...@gmail.comwrote:
Don't get me started on the deficiency of Netbeans. This feature is a must
and has been in all others IDEs forever.
Why the hell isn't JAVA a language that needs attention in Netbeans?
Since this is written in Java, why isn't this the main language supported
Java is the LEAST developed language of them all.
You reallly need to focus on your main language, which should be Java.
I really like Netbeans. But until you get REAL editor support for JAVA, I
can't use it.
Just my rant on on a Thursday.
- Erlend
On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 7:15 PM, TorNorbye tor.nor...@gmail.com wrote:
Regarding IDEs can only help to search for a class if I know its
name.:
As of NetBeans 6.5 you can search for symbols too (Navigate Go To
Symbol -- Ctrl-Shift-Cmd-O), not just classes - I use that sometimes
when I can't remember the class name. If I remember the method, or
field, I'm after I just use Go To Symbol to find it which takes me to
the right class.
-- Tor
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[The Java Posse] Re: Package by feature or layer?
maybe the were entering a one-line-coding-contest? i used to type those as a kid in the back of Nibble and Byte magazine (in apple soft basic with a ton of semicolons :) On Jun 18, 2009, at 5:49 PM, Augusto wrote: I like this comment from the bug report; This feature is necessary, for simple usability because is impossible read a line code with thousands columns. A line of code should never have thousands of columns. On Jun 18, 7:49 pm, TorNorbye tor.nor...@gmail.com wrote: On Jun 18, 4:26 pm, TorNorbye tor.nor...@gmail.com wrote: On Jun 18, 11:18 am, Erlend Hamnaberg ngar...@gmail.com wrote: Don't get me started on the deficiency of Netbeans. This feature is a must and has been in all others IDEs forever. Maybe it's been in all other IDEs forever, but I just fired up Eclipse 3.4 and I can't find it. I'm sure it's there but I'm too stupid to find it. Where is it? (By the way I found Search Java but I don't think that's the same feature; I'm looking for something similar to Eclipse's Open Type dialog where you can instantly see filtered results as you're typing, where you don't have to tell it whether you're looking for a method or field, where you jump to the declaration (the default in that dialog only shows references, etc.) -- Tor Why the hell isn't JAVA a language that needs attention in Netbeans? Since this is written in Java, why isn't this the main language supported Java is the LEAST developed language of them all. You reallly need to focus on your main language, which should be Java. I really like Netbeans. But until you get REAL editor support for JAVA, I can't use it. Please define real. -- Tor --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[The Java Posse] Re: Package by feature or layer?
Thanks Tor for pointing out Ctrl-Shift-Cmd-O, didn't know of that one. I didn't even think of this feature. I use Eclipse most of the time, and I don't think Eclipse has this feature. I only know of Open Type (Ctrl-Shift-T) and Open Resource (Ctrl-Shift-R). --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[The Java Posse] Re: Package by feature or layer?
Hi Christian, In addition, there is an article on javapractices.com on the same issue: http://www.javapractices.com/topic/TopicAction.do?Id=205 My overall feeling is that package-by-layer is a wide habit, but one that is often worth breaking. In addition, a problem seems to be example code. People tend to naturally follow the style of code that is presented to them in examples. Unfortunately, even when a framework is compatible with package-by-feature, you will almost always see (in my experience) framework examples that use package-by-layer. One last comment: I find it interesting that modularity seems to be sensitive to what I call 'the simple deletion test': if the deletion of feature X is a single operation (for example, the deletion of a single file or a single directory), then the implementation is very likely modular. - John O'Hanley --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[The Java Posse] Re: Package by feature or layer?
I think at a point, where packaging by layer starts to become a serious handicap is where real modularity needs to come in. In most cases, even now in Java, it doesn't have to take much effort to make an application extensible via some sort of simple plug-in/module architecture. If you have that, then you can go with the flow and package by layer, and continuously factor out features into their own module containers. I think the current package structure in the Java language is insufficient for good, well, packaging of features, as it doesn't easily lend itself to metadata definition and each feature may easily contain classes that plug into different layers that need different levels of security. So I say, we keep using packages for layers and components/modules/plug-ins for features in conjunction with that. On Jun 13, 7:15 am, Christian Beil christian.a.b...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, John O'Hanley (http://www.javapractices.com) has an interesting article about harmful Java practices:http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-07-2008/jw-07-harmful-idioms.html What is your opinion on that? I'm especially interested in what you think about structuring packages? Do you package by layer (ie dao,service,controller,...) or do you package by feature? Cheers, Christian --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[The Java Posse] Re: Package by feature or layer?
I agree with the semantics of package-by-feature. In Robert Martin's Agile Software Development: Principles, Patterns, and Practices book, he has a very big section on packaging and how it affects coupling and reuse. I do see that many projects tend to ignore this and package by layer (and I've been guilty of this, too). My guess is that putting a class in a layer (or categorization) bucket is much easier to do than putting it in a bucket by feature. Certainly if we have to think about inheritance (e.g. I need to extend a base Struts 2 Action class) then figuring out what package to put it in starts to look like a similar problem (Ah, put it in the place with all the other things that extend Action!) Another reason is likely to be the self-contained nature of many projects -- if we're building a project and we aren't exporting some portion of those classes to another team, we aren't forced to think about API reuse or packaging. IDEs make it easy to search for classes by name, so in that case it doesn't require much thought about where they live. Dan On Jun 13, 7:15 am, Christian Beil christian.a.b...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, John O'Hanley (http://www.javapractices.com) has an interesting article about harmful Java practices:http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-07-2008/jw-07-harmful-idioms.html What is your opinion on that? I'm especially interested in what you think about structuring packages? Do you package by layer (ie dao,service,controller,...) or do you package by feature? Cheers, Christian --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
