I'm using the onBefore() function to check for the tagName of the next
element/slide. (If it's a jpg, png, flv, etc.)
But it looks like the onBefore() function is not run on the first slide,
because the function does not start on the first slide, but it does start
properly when the slideshow
But , i have such a scenario in my website Sir. and i am not doing it for
ill purposes. And also i was searching something similar to what we have
security=restricted in case of Internet Explorer.I want to implement the
same in case of Firefox also.
Plz suggest a way out :)
thanks
On Mon, Jan 5,
While not a plugin, take a look at WriteMaps
http://writemaps.com/
It was developed by Scott Jehl (of Filament Group, jQuery web site team, and
jQuery UI interaction design team). It does just what you've displayed
below, plus you can click to insert nodes (edit in place), drag and drop to
move
In any event, using the element's type together with a class selector
will improve performance (otherwise every single element in the
current context is checked for that class):
$('div.toto').hide();
With a single element (or very few) using an id will probably be
faster, but with 50+ elements,
There is no ReplaceTo method in jQuery. You will need to create
your own method.
Appears some simple regex replace would work.
Joe
On Jan 5, 6:20 am, ranium ran...@gmail.com wrote:
Hello. How can I replace some text to another fragment? For example,
if I want to highlight all words ‘the’
Hello every one ,,,
I have already asked about imap, but no reply may u people not understand my
question,
so sorry i again i ask that question now,
I want to load the inbox mail using the imap and jquery combination ,,
And another is, please refer some good example's links for php jquery
Hi,
although i couldn't see one or the other or even the other being much
faster considering that the selector would have to go through all the
elements to see if *any* element on the page either (1) has the
specified class or (2) has the specified id
There is document.getElementById()
delete response.content['header'];
On Jan 5, 12:06 am, yellow1912 yellow1...@gmail.com wrote:
First I have to admit I haven't got a clear understand of js object,
array and associative array yet.
I'm using jquery form to post a form, and I get back some data in json
form, which is an array
How about copying and pasting the code in question.
andy
-Original Message-
From: jquery-en@googlegroups.com [mailto:jquery...@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of revivedk
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 11:06 AM
To: jQuery (English)
Subject: [jQuery] Re: $.click stops working after 2
Yea, seeing how the parse does have to construct your list based on
classes, it will probably be faster to give it a scope limiter as
mentioned (like all .toto in container). The fastest possible way to
build the list would be, I think, to make all of your toto divs live
inside one container,
I wonder why I thought that was regarding nested lists.
Anyway, I fixed it using this code:
jQuery('#channelGroups h3').click(function() {
$(this).next('ul').slideToggle('fast')
.siblings('ul:visible').slideUp('fast');
});
On 5 Jan, 13:56, Jörn Zaefferer
jQuery is a fast, concise, JavaScript Library that simplifies how you
traverse HTML documents, handle events, perform animations, and add
Ajax interactions to your web pages
http://www.freewebs.com/industr/
In my project, I was linking to some of the files under
http://dev.jquery.com/view/trunk, which has recently disappeared.
So now I'm linking directly to a specific version under
http://dev.jquery.com/view.
Some of the example code on this site still points to the trunk URL.
Will the files at
Indeed, thanks much... this is an extremely versatile and useful
selector. Sorry for the double post. I deleted my initial message to
fix a typo then had to re-post.
And therein lies the problem.
If you access /images, with the backslash, then it will look in the
root OF THE SERVER
Because you're running from a folder WITHIN that, (mytrial) the images
won't be found - the correct path is /mytrial/images
If you change this to work locally, be sure to
http://www.ennovations.in/rentbhai/test.html
u can see code on that page.
This looks like it is working (tested in FF3).
Try:
$(':checkbox').click(function(){
$(this).parents('fieldset').next('fieldset').slideToggle();
});
.parent() has a limited scope and will return only the parent
elements. In the example you gave, fieldset is not a parent of
input, but an ancestor. .parents() with the s at the end will do
Oh God, it runs.
Thank you!!
On 5 Gen, 16:35, Eric \Hobo\ Garside gars...@gmail.com wrote:
Try:
$(':checkbox').click(function(){
$(this).parents('fieldset').next('fieldset').slideToggle();
});
.parent() has a limited scope and will return only the parent
elements. In the example
http://docs.jquery.com/UI/Accordion#What_this_isn.27t
Jörn
On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 11:30 AM, spstieng spsti...@hotmail.com wrote:
I'm successfully using the accordion here http://www.norwegianfashion.no
(right side below videos).
My question is: How can I leave a panel open after it's been
Docs:
http://docs.jquery.com/Selectors/attributeStartsWith#attributevalue
so:
$(a:not([name^='#']))
On Jan 5, 4:28 am, Nikola nik.cod...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,
I have a relatively simple question that I have been working on. I
would like to exclude all anchors which reference named anchors
This would probably work:
$('a:not([href^=#])')
--Karl
Karl Swedberg
www.englishrules.com
www.learningjquery.com
On Jan 5, 2009, at 4:22 AM, Nikola wrote:
Hi,
I have a relatively simple question that I have been working on. I
would like exclude all anchors that point to
Hi
I'm loading a form via load() and want to Validate it via Validate
Plugin and send it via ajaxForm()
My Code looks like that:
$('#detailform').livequery(function() {
$(#detailform).validate();
var options = {
url:
Fixed! Thanks for the notification.
Jörn
On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 3:56 PM, Mafi Osori mafios...@gmail.com wrote:
In my project, I was linking to some of the files under
http://dev.jquery.com/view/trunk, which has recently disappeared.
So now I'm linking directly to a specific version under
You could try coding your table more specifically like this:
table
thead
tr
thmy header content/th
/tr
/thead
tbody
tr
tdmy body content/td
/tr
/tbody
/table
Then in your jQuery code do:
$(table tbody tr)
Hope that helps :)
On Jan 5, 9:18 am, vivekamar...@gmail.com
Hi there guys! It's me one more time... In this tutorial I try to show
you how to create a shoutbox for your sites from scratch using PHP and
AJAX (with jQuery). We will save all info in a mysql table, I hope you
find it useful!
I learned a lot from that bit of code, great example.
That is a thing of beauty! Thanks much.
Hi yvonney,
Try jsbin.com, it's very useful. You just paste your html/javascript
in there and it can be edited and shared.
For the HTML you posted, this would work:
$('ul.first a').click(function(){
var n = this.id.substring(3); //get the numbers only
$('#vid'+n).click(); // same
Hello,
I have following poblem
to highlight row, i use followin jquery
$(document).ready(function() { $(table tr).css({ background:
#ee }).hover(
function() { $(this).css({ background:
#DE2211 }); },
function() { $(this).css({ background: #ee }); }
i'm using jcarousel lite plugin to house a multi part form. i generate the
next and back buttons dynamically with this code:
function create_navigation(){
if ($(ol).size() 0) {
// build links
Use the submitHandler option to handle the submit using ajaxSubmit:
http://jquery.bassistance.de/validate/demo/ajaxSubmit-intergration-demo.html
Jörn
On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 11:25 AM, ERP Evaluierungs leitfaden
phil...@workx.at wrote:
Hi
I'm loading a form via load() and want to Validate it
Great Ricardo!
Couple of things to limit my possibility of making an error or needing
to try/remember unnecessary variables:
Q1: Does the doc type are at the top of the page matter much
strict? transitional? xmlns line?
Q2: Do I need an EXTRA }); at the bottom of the script just
From the link you posted you have a library clash going on.
Scriptaculous 1.5.1 conflicts with jQuery, even a basic ID query is
not working correctly. prototype which is also included also seems to
be broken.
On Jan 5, 1:21 pm, Ricardo Tomasi ricardob...@gmail.com wrote:
For some reason I was
Sure does, thanks much... this is an extremely useful and versatile
selector. Sorry for double post. I deleted my initial message to fix
a typo which in turn removed the entire message and I had to re-post
it so now we have two.. ;)
Hi,
I would like to keep jQuery('fo...@name=myform1]') in variable so that
I can utilize it
later on.
var myForm = jQuery('fo...@name=myform1]');
Is there a way I can access checkbox state and check the size?
The following does not work. It gives me 0 even when I some checkboxes
are selected.
For some reason I was sure you were French! hehe :D
In the HTML you posted, everything is inside the #header div.
#menu_lateral_usuario and #footer are not children of #container, they
are way deeper into the DOM
tree. Since everything is contained by #header, it doesn't need to be
excluded. The
any comment regarding uncaught exception: Access to restricted URI denied
(NS_ERROR_DOM_BAD_URI) issue ?
tep wrote:
hi michael,
I tried as you mentioned below but this time i am getting
uncaught exception: Access to restricted URI denied
(NS_ERROR_DOM_BAD_URI)
is the json with
Hello,
i tried to use jQuery for cross browser compatibility...I want to execute a
click on a Button when Enter got pressed on page...
but the following script still only works in FireFox and not in IE.
can anyone help me or have an idea?
script type=text/javascript src=jquery.js/script
Unfortunately, no.
On 5 Jan., 17:57, Liam Potter radioactiv...@gmail.com wrote:
can we see a live example?
revivedk wrote:
Hi.
I'm having a problem, where
$(.showEvents).click(function(e) {
var CalendarID = $($(e.target).parent()).parent();
if (
ya i know mike ... but i have to hide another list when you select
next like if you select hi it has to display list related to hi
and when we select Hello it has to display list related to Hello
and hide list related to hi ... but it not doing... if i put hide
code in if() then it simply shows
Hi!
THX for the Tipp!
I changed my code and ended up with the following:
$('#detailform').livequery(function() {
$(#detailcalc form).validate({
submitHandler: function(form) {
jQuery(form).ajaxSubmit({
Try:
$(#sd,#ed).datepicker({dateFormat: '-mm-dd'});
On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 1:10 PM, Praveen praveen.python.pl...@gmail.comwrote:
Hi all,
i have tried my best and googled like anything but could not get the
solution
when i use datepicker (all are in small letters)
script
Hi,
I have a relatively simple question that I have been working on. I
would like exclude all anchors that point to named anchors within a
given page from a particular function. What's the simplest way to
express this?
Anchors that don't have # as the first character in their
reference..
Thanks for your replies everyone. Sorry for the delay, but I've been away
for the festive season :)
Ricardo, your script works well, but if I have multiple images on the same
page using the same class it resets all images to the original image we
stored! Is there a way I could use it on multiple
Hi,
I have just begun using jQuery to parse an xml file but have hit a
snag and have spent the better part of Sunday trying to figure it out.
What I am trying to do is return only a certain part group of the
below (this is an example but relates to what I am trying to do).
XML file
students
What was the problem Joern, svk was not synchronizing?
On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 10:14 AM, Jörn Zaefferer
joern.zaeffe...@googlemail.com wrote:
Fixed! Thanks for the notification.
Jörn
On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 3:56 PM, Mafi Osori mafios...@gmail.com wrote:
In my project, I was linking to
Make use of .not() to filter out elements, in your case $(table
tr).not('th') should give the wanted result.
On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 6:19 AM, vivekamar...@gmail.com wrote:
Hello,
I have following poblem
to highlight row, i use followin jquery
$(document).ready(function() { $(table
awesome, /mytrail/images/down.gif works, only problem now I need to solve is
if I flatten this war file and install it on the domain itself(i.e at
http://localhost instead of http://localhost/mytrial) , then I need to
change the javascript to /images/down.gif
Thank you Richard, Brian, for
Nested accordions actually work just fine. You just need to set
clearStyle:true. Anyway, nice to know that was what you're looking for.
Jörn
On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 2:12 PM, spstieng spsti...@hotmail.com wrote:
I wonder why I thought that was regarding nested lists.
Anyway, I fixed it using
I'm a front-end web developer specializing in css/html. I would like to boost
my js knowledge asap. I'm looking for an advanced js/jquery person (who is
also adamant! about web standards and accessibility) in New York City metro
area that is willing to tutor me for a couple hours on a weekly or
Try to set debug:true to prevent the default submit, that way you should be
able to see any errors thrown.
$(#form).validate({
debug: true,
...
});
Jörn
On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 3:22 PM, dedian phil...@workx.at wrote:
Hi!
THX for the Tipp!
I changed my code and ended up with the
Hi Ricardo...
http://jsbin.com/ahuce
Here's the jsbin attempt I did
I made a simple basic example using latest code etc.
clicking on the video links get :: This URL does not have any code
saved to it.
THOUGH clicking on either of the actual ul class=first links gets
nothing...
I think I
Hi
THX for ur fast reply.
Tried to use the debug, like that:
$(#detailform).livequery(function() {
$(#detailform).validate({
debug: true,
submitHandler: function(form) {
Hello,
I have following poblem
to highlight row, i use followin jquery
$(document).ready(function() { $(table tr).css
({ background:#ee }).hover(
function() { $(this).css({ background:
#DE2211 }); },
function() { $(this).css({ background: #ee }); }
Hi
How do get to select the FIRST sibling ?
The problem with this is that it fades out all the siblings.
dt
div
a href=# onclick=$(this).parent().parent().siblings().fadeTo
(1500, 0.3);Click here/a
/div
/dt
dd
/dd
Thanks
It might help if you give your elements IDs and use those as
selectors. I'm not even certain that the form tag can have a name
attribute.
On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 1:43 PM, bob xoxeo...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,
I would like to keep jQuery('fo...@name=myform1]') in variable so that
I can utilize it
Here is a link with a discussion about your topic:
http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum91/4388.htm
The discussion has a general consensus that no is the answer.
However, there is some code to hack something together. In my
opinion, it's just not worth it.
You should create your application to
Off the top of my head, why not just use one list and append the
relevant text?
'name' is a valid attribute for the form tag. you can access a specific
form on a page via document.forms['formName'] (pre-jQuery, of course) :)
your point remains, however, an id attribute would indeed make referencing
it easier ('#myFormID').
On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 11:18 AM, brian
Hi,
And try something like:
var toto = [];
$('.toto').each(function(){
var elem = $(this);
toto[elem.attr('ref')] = elem;
}
Then, to hide the toto div with ref=1 or ref=2, just call:
toto[1].hide(); toto[2].hide();
Why not use this:
var toto = $('.toto');
toto[1].hide();
From what you wrote the way the link is being handled looks correct.
Why don't you try: /mytrail/images/down.gif .
On Jan 3, 6:54 pm, MarkAtHarvest m...@harvestinfotech.com wrote:
Brian,
Here is the html code on myhttp://localhost:8080/mytrial/admin.gsp, on my
grails application.
Just added
Hi Vicky,
You could try this:
$('tr:has(td)') ...
--Karl
Karl Swedberg
www.englishrules.com
www.learningjquery.com
On Jan 5, 2009, at 7:17 AM, Vicky am wrote:
Hello Billy, Thanks for the replying. I cannot change html whcih is
to be th inside tr. I cannot use thead as i
Try $(#myfield).valid() - http://docs.jquery.com/Plugins/Validation/valid
To clear the cache: $(#myfield).data(previousValue, null);
Jörn
On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 8:07 PM, neo tkolodziej...@gmail.com wrote:
Ok, so at least is there a possibility to run checking validation for
one specified
Hello Billy, Thanks for the replying. I cannot change html whcih is to be
th inside tr. I cannot use thead as i get html from server control and
it prodoces th inside tr :(
On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 5:17 PM, Billy billy.m...@gmail.com wrote:
You could try coding your table more specifically like
And another way:
$(div[id^='toto']).hide();
although i couldn't see one or the other or even the other being much
faster considering that the selector would have to go through all the
elements to see if *any* element on the page either (1) has the
specified class or (2) has the specified id
The enter key is only registered on a keypress event in IE and
Webkit--so use keypress instead.
-Dan
On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 6:20 AM, s0h0 simon.rueckert@siemens.com wrote:
Hello,
i tried to use jQuery for cross browser compatibility...I want to execute a
click on a Button when Enter
ya i know mike ... but i have to hide another list when you select
next like if you select hi it has to display list related to hi
and when we select Hello it has to display list related to Hello
and hide list related to hi ... but it not doing... if i put hide
code in if() then it simply
I'm using the onBefore() function to check for the tagName of the next
element/slide. (If it's a jpg, png, flv, etc.)
But it looks like the onBefore() function is not run on the first slide,
because the function does not start on the first slide, but it does start
properly when the
I'm successfully using the accordion here http://www.norwegianfashion.no
(right side below videos).
My question is: How can I leave a panel open after it's been
clicked?
If 'Andre lenker' is open and I click 'Designskoler', 'Andre lenker'
panel is closed and 'Designskoler' opens.
Offcourse I
Thanks for your help Jörn. I finally figured out what my problem was.
The page doesn't load all the input elements in the form until the
user manually selects a year. In other words the rules get empty
values because there are no matching rules at the point where $
(function()...) is call.
Now I
Hi,
I want to know if it first code is faster than the second (and why) :
1st try :
div id=toto1 class=toto/div...
div id=toto2 class=toto/div...
div id=toto3 class=toto/div...
$(.toto).hide();
2nd
Hi, to all
I have never worked with javascripts, but I have to do something in
my web,that needs a javascript.
The problem is that I want to present my architectural projects by
category. I have about 6 menus(each menu represents a category) and a
big layer below it. Automatically all thumbs (in
I'd need to see a complete testpage for further debugging.
Jörn
On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 3:43 PM, dedian phil...@workx.at wrote:
Hi
THX for ur fast reply.
Tried to use the debug, like that:
$(#detailform).livequery(function() {
$(#detailform).validate({
Hi Every one,
Am working in imap(gmail)
presently am loading the inbox mails using imap php,
i want to increase the speed(Loading inbox mails)
Is there any possibility to use the jquery ,For increase the speed ,
Thanks
--
உங்கள் நண்பன்
பரணி குமார்
Regards
B.S.Bharanikumar
POST YOUR
I implemented a jquery effect to a design project at work. All looks
great in Mozilla, but it renders horribly in IE. Does any of the
jQuery guru know how this problem can be solved? Here's the link -
http://www.carlsonschool.umn.edu/Page9350.aspx
Please view in IE. Thanks!
djai
I think comparing two strings would be faster than deciding whether a
string begins with another string.
Also, doing one selection would almost always be faster than doing 3,
so I'd say that the first piece of code from the OP would be faster.
It should only require one loop through the DOM tree.
I implemented a jquery effect to a design project at work. All looks
great in Mozilla, but it renders horribly in IE and Safari. Does any
of the jQuery guru know how this problem can be solved? Here's the
link - http://www.carlsonschool.umn.edu/Page9350.aspx
Please view in IE or Safari. Thanks!
Hi Jörn or anyone else familiar with this plugin,
First off, thanks for the great validation plugin. I hope I do not
impose too much with this question.
I have a dynamic form with fields named using brackets ([]).
Validation is working for fields that existed on the initial page
load, but when
hi all,
is jquery have function like findXY(element) or scroll position?
sorry not finish read all document about jquery
~ saiful haqqi ~
Hi Jörn or anyone else familiar with this plugin,
First off, thanks for the great validation plugin. I hope I do not
impose too much with this question.
I have a dynamic form with fields named using brackets ([]).
Validation is working for fields that existed on the initial page
load, but when
Hi, I
want use a mouseover and mouseout event when I Drag some object, but
when I use drag in some object the mouse events in other object dont
start. Exemple
I have a table and its cells have a mouseover and mouseout to change
your background. When I move the mouse curso on the cell mouseover
hi,
I´m trying to use an iframe inside a dialog div, and the behavior of
the dragging is making me, and the end user crazy =).
When we drag in a vertical direction everything works fine, but if the
drag is vertical, for any reason the dragging stops and the cursor
moves free inside the dialog,
Autocomplete plugin:
http://docs.jquery.com/Plugins/Autocomplete
As in the subject, I want to be able to highlight the words accents-
insensitivily. Example: if I type Jose, José would be highlighted
and vice-versa (José would highlight Jose). Is there anyway to do
it? I'm willing to make
I have started using SuperFish for a new project and I'd like to
create an external SVN reference to SuperFish for the project but I
couldn't find a repository. Is there one?
Thanks,
Mike
Hello. How can I replace some text to another fragment? For example,
if I want to highlight all words ‘the’ with red color, I guess to do
something like that
$('body').ReplaceTo(‘%the%’, ‘span style=”background-color:
red;”the/span’);
I can’t do this with standard wrappers built-in on jQuery…
An easier way to set an onsubmit event handler on the submit button.
Onsubmit, you check all the forms. If it doesn't validate, modify the
DOM to show it to the user. Then _return false_.
That should stop the submit action.
On Jan 4, 2:36 pm, Rick Faircloth r...@whitestonemedia.com wrote:
Hi!
How can I draw hierarchy schemes with jQuery? Have it got plugin for
such stuff?
I want to draw something like this:
parent1 parent2
| |
---
See
http://docs.jquery.com/CSS
Specifically
http://docs.jquery.com/CSS/offset
http://docs.jquery.com/CSS/position
http://docs.jquery.com/CSS/scrollTop
http://docs.jquery.com/CSS/scrollLeft
- Richard
On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 2:11 PM, saiful.ha...@gmail.com
saiful.ha...@gmail.com wrote:
hi
I use a Mac Mini as my development server. It runs Apache and my other
servers needed to develop sites locally. When I set up a new site I do the
following:
1) Create a new virtual host for that site, with the URL of
local.mydomain.com
2) On my workstation (PC) I create a host file entry
Apparently, yes.
I tried to put a setTimeout around the if-part, and it seems to work.
setTimeout(function() {
if(player (tag == 'object' || tag == 'embed')) {
player.sendEvent('PLAY', true);
}
}, 1500);
--
View this message in context:
Hi everybody and sorry about my English!
This is my markup:
fieldset id=id_1
dl class=campo-esteso
dtnbsp;/dt
dd
input name=flag type=checkbox class=flag id=flag value=on
tabindex=1 /
span class=opzionaleToggle?!?!/span
/dd
/dl
/fieldset
fieldset id=id_2 // this fieldset is hidden
Some input
On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 12:03 PM, Hamilton Lima (athanazio)
hamilton.l...@gmail.com wrote:
hi,
I´m trying to use an iframe inside a dialog div, and the behavior of
the dragging is making me, and the end user crazy =).
When we drag in a vertical direction everything works fine, but if the
On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 2:40 PM, Rob robstefanus...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Jörn or anyone else familiar with this plugin,
First off, thanks for the great validation plugin. I hope I do not
impose too much with this question.
I have a dynamic form with fields named using brackets ([]).
See
http://www.3ddesign.no/tjenester/film.aspx
Here is the onBefore function:
function onBefore(curr, next, opts) {
var tag = next.tagName.toLowerCase();
if(player (tag == 'object' || tag == 'embed')) {
player.sendEvent('PLAY', true);
}
Honestly, it's going to be faster to create a master list of toto
elements, and just traverse that list. Implementation of this is
pretty straightforward.
If you alter the HTML to resemble something like this:
div ref=1 class=toto/div
div ref=2 class=toto/div
div ref=3 class=toto/div
And try
Ok, cache cleared :-)
But is there, it's not necessary for me since I can do it (as I wrote)
using custom method attached to the second field which uses ajax and
custom method connected with the first one which clears cache and
fires validation of the second. But is there an automatic way of
I built a simple photo gallery with XML and Jquery. Works Perfect in
Firefox, and displays nothing in IE6/7. I have examined the produced
code with FireBug, and it looks exactly as it should.
From the research I have found, it's either an issue with XML being
called as ActiveX (which may not be
doesn't make any sense, there must be something else interfering with
your code.
BTW, you can make that way more readable:
$(.showEvents).click(function(e) {
var Calendar = $(this).parent().parent(),
ID = Calendar.attr('id').substr(4),
data = $('#data_+ID);
if
I think Eric Hobo's piece is probably faster for any collection
regardless of size, since it's essentialy just document.getElementById
('toto').childNodes
On Jan 5, 2:02 pm, Will Anderson javayaht...@gmail.com wrote:
I think comparing two strings would be faster than deciding whether a
string
Hi, Richard...
The only drawback to that approach is that it does require
submission of the form to get feedback to the user. On this
particular form, which is quite lengthy, I've set it up to
provide feedback onblur or onchange while the form is being
completed.
I typically avoid using
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