Re: [Kicad-developers] Call for help, no programming experience required.

[nnn]

Why not to add 3d files (from some old revision of library) to projects 
folder and use paths relative to KIPRJMOD? If demos will refer to some 
special revision of library with 3d models they will break each time the 
models are moved or renamed.



W dniu 01.10.2015 o 16:20, Wayne Stambaugh pisze:

I just committed a fix for broken 3D model link in the interf_u demo
https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1500956.  While I was at it, I
looked at the rest of the demos that have board files and they are
broken (one partially) as well.  Here is an opportunity for someone to
help out the project and no programming experience is require.  All you
need to know is how to associate 3D models with footprints in Pcbnew and
how to use bzr to create branch and a patch (well documented many
places).  If someone has time to do this before the stable release, it
really would be nice if our demos showed off the 3D models.

Thanks,

Wayne

___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp



___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Kicad-developers] Call for help, no programming experience required.

[Cirilo Bernardo]

I think in general VRML models suffer from a somewhat random (0,0,0)
reference
and even the orientation is typically 1 of 4 common orientations.  This is
due in
part from the habits of whoever created the model and in part from the
modeling
software used. We will see more such problems when we have the capability to
use more types of models.  The only scheme I can think of so far which may
help with this issue is to have an optional file alongside each 3D model
file to
provide information needed to put the model into a nominal position. For
models
not at (0,0,0) such a scheme would also save people from typing the same
information into the VRML scale/rotation/translation box all the time. The
down
sides of course are these extra files and the fact that if 2 files have the
same
name but different (0,0,0) someone will have to remember to edit the
positioning
file. The file is not intended to replace the scale/rotation/translation
within KiCad
but to transparently add to it. The model manager can make this happen
without
additional user interaction. Unfortunately this scheme can only help to
create the
nominal position - whatever a user decides that must be. It doesn't help at
all
if footprints change their (0,0) reference between projects, which is the
case for
the newer THT footprints in the KiCad libraries.

Changes so far which can cause problems:
schematic symbols:
+ many changed size and the location of connection points
+ Diodes were made consistent so K is always Pin 1 (which I think should
have
   been the case even for THT since K is the marked pin)
+ Orientations may have changed

footprints:
+ (0,0) reference for THT components has changed; I'm not familiar at all
with
   the orientation of SMT footprints so I can't say if they've changed, but
some
   rules were put in place to ensure a consistent orientation. I suspect
the (0,0)
   position remains the 'center of body' since that's what's required by
placing
   machines, but I haven't been following the changes.
+ Orientation has changed for many THT components

VRML models:
+ many have changed orientation
+ many have changed (0,0,0)

We should definitely provide big red warning signs for users telling them of
the potential problems and reminding them that they should archive all
existing projects before switching if they make use of the kicad libraries.

- Cirilo


On Fri, Oct 2, 2015 at 6:24 AM, Wayne Stambaugh 
wrote:

> The only down side is that as improvements are made to the 3D models,
> they would not be visible.  I hope at some point in the future our 3D
> models could be improved (some of material properties are very wrong)
> now that FreeCAD exports vrml files that the 3D viewer can use.  I would
> think the demos should track the latest and greatest to show case
> KiCad's capabilities.
>
> The "everything" project archive sounds interesting but it should be
> discussed outside this bug report.
>
> On 10/1/2015 4:15 PM, Chris Pavlina wrote:
> > It's a right shame we don't have any standalone project archive format
> > that holds *everything*. That would be *very* useful for this sort of
> > thing, as well as just generally making sure projects can always be
> opened.
> >
> > I wonder if there is any developer interest in that besides me. It's
> > definitely on my list of things I'd like to work on post-release, but I
> > don't have much time lately...
> >
> > On Oct 1, 2015 3:52 PM, "nnn" >
> wrote:
> >
> > Why not to add 3d files (from some old revision of library) to
> > projects folder and use paths relative to KIPRJMOD? If demos will
> > refer to some special revision of library with 3d models they will
> > break each time the models are moved or renamed.
> >
> >
> > W dniu 01.10.2015 o 16:20, Wayne Stambaugh pisze:
> >
> > I just committed a fix for broken 3D model link in the interf_u
> demo
> > https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1500956.  While I was at
> it, I
> > looked at the rest of the demos that have board files and they
> are
> > broken (one partially) as well.  Here is an opportunity for
> > someone to
> > help out the project and no programming experience is require.
> > All you
> > need to know is how to associate 3D models with footprints in
> > Pcbnew and
> > how to use bzr to create branch and a patch (well documented many
> > places).  If someone has time to do this before the stable
> > release, it
> > really would be nice if our demos showed off the 3D models.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Wayne
> >
> > ___
> > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> > 
> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > 

Re: [Kicad-developers] Call for help, no programming experience required.

[Chris Pavlina]

It's a right shame we don't have any standalone project archive format that
holds *everything*. That would be *very* useful for this sort of thing, as
well as just generally making sure projects can always be opened.

I wonder if there is any developer interest in that besides me. It's
definitely on my list of things I'd like to work on post-release, but I
don't have much time lately...
On Oct 1, 2015 3:52 PM, "nnn"  wrote:

> Why not to add 3d files (from some old revision of library) to projects
> folder and use paths relative to KIPRJMOD? If demos will refer to some
> special revision of library with 3d models they will break each time the
> models are moved or renamed.
>
>
> W dniu 01.10.2015 o 16:20, Wayne Stambaugh pisze:
>
>> I just committed a fix for broken 3D model link in the interf_u demo
>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1500956.  While I was at it, I
>> looked at the rest of the demos that have board files and they are
>> broken (one partially) as well.  Here is an opportunity for someone to
>> help out the project and no programming experience is require.  All you
>> need to know is how to associate 3D models with footprints in Pcbnew and
>> how to use bzr to create branch and a patch (well documented many
>> places).  If someone has time to do this before the stable release, it
>> really would be nice if our demos showed off the 3D models.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Wayne
>>
>> ___
>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>
>
>
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>
___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Kicad-developers] Call for help, no programming experience required.

[easyw]

and using FreeCAD VRML models (instead of Wings3D models) you have also 
MCAD models to be used for the MCAD exporting/viewing


here there is a video of the FreeCAD VRML models and FreeCAD STEP models 
that shows how KiCad is ready for MCAD world! (just now with the stable 
release)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmNGdqkKbpM

I've done a self contained project that displays the 3d-viewer in kicad 
as the 3d MCAD view in FreeCAD or whatever MCAD software you want to use :)


On 01/10/2015 22.24, Wayne Stambaugh wrote:

The only down side is that as improvements are made to the 3D models,
they would not be visible.  I hope at some point in the future our 3D
models could be improved (some of material properties are very wrong)
now that FreeCAD exports vrml files that the 3D viewer can use.  I would
think the demos should track the latest and greatest to show case
KiCad's capabilities.

The "everything" project archive sounds interesting but it should be
discussed outside this bug report.

On 10/1/2015 4:15 PM, Chris Pavlina wrote:

It's a right shame we don't have any standalone project archive format
that holds *everything*. That would be *very* useful for this sort of
thing, as well as just generally making sure projects can always be opened.

I wonder if there is any developer interest in that besides me. It's
definitely on my list of things I'd like to work on post-release, but I
don't have much time lately...

On Oct 1, 2015 3:52 PM, "nnn" > wrote:

 Why not to add 3d files (from some old revision of library) to
 projects folder and use paths relative to KIPRJMOD? If demos will
 refer to some special revision of library with 3d models they will
 break each time the models are moved or renamed.


 W dniu 01.10.2015 o 16:20, Wayne Stambaugh pisze:

 I just committed a fix for broken 3D model link in the interf_u demo
 https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1500956.  While I was at it, I
 looked at the rest of the demos that have board files and they are
 broken (one partially) as well.  Here is an opportunity for
 someone to
 help out the project and no programming experience is require.
 All you
 need to know is how to associate 3D models with footprints in
 Pcbnew and
 how to use bzr to create branch and a patch (well documented many
 places).  If someone has time to do this before the stable
 release, it
 really would be nice if our demos showed off the 3D models.

 Thanks,

 Wayne

 ___
 Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
 Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
 
 Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
 More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp



 ___
 Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
 Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
 
 Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
 More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp



___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp



___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp



___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Kicad-developers] Call for help, no programming experience required.

[Wayne Stambaugh]

On 10/1/2015 5:03 PM, Cirilo Bernardo wrote:
> I think in general VRML models suffer from a somewhat random (0,0,0)
> reference
> and even the orientation is typically 1 of 4 common orientations.  This
> is due in
> part from the habits of whoever created the model and in part from the
> modeling
> software used. We will see more such problems when we have the capability to
> use more types of models.  The only scheme I can think of so far which may
> help with this issue is to have an optional file alongside each 3D model
> file to
> provide information needed to put the model into a nominal position. For
> models
> not at (0,0,0) such a scheme would also save people from typing the same
> information into the VRML scale/rotation/translation box all the time.
> The down
> sides of course are these extra files and the fact that if 2 files have
> the same
> name but different (0,0,0) someone will have to remember to edit the
> positioning
> file. The file is not intended to replace the scale/rotation/translation
> within KiCad
> but to transparently add to it. The model manager can make this happen
> without
> additional user interaction. Unfortunately this scheme can only help to
> create the
> nominal position - whatever a user decides that must be. It doesn't help
> at all
> if footprints change their (0,0) reference between projects, which is
> the case for
> the newer THT footprints in the KiCad libraries.
> 
> Changes so far which can cause problems:
> schematic symbols:
> + many changed size and the location of connection points
> + Diodes were made consistent so K is always Pin 1 (which I think should
> have
>been the case even for THT since K is the marked pin)
> + Orientations may have changed
> 
> footprints:
> + (0,0) reference for THT components has changed; I'm not familiar at
> all with
>the orientation of SMT footprints so I can't say if they've changed,
> but some
>rules were put in place to ensure a consistent orientation. I suspect
> the (0,0)
>position remains the 'center of body' since that's what's required by
> placing
>machines, but I haven't been following the changes.

Has anyone checked if the position files are correct for THT footprints
with the pin 1 reference points at 0,0?  If this breaks user's position
files used for pick & place, this is *really* bad and I would consider
this a potential stable release blocker.  Someone needs to confirm this
so we can make a decision.

> + Orientation has changed for many THT components
> 
> VRML models:
> + many have changed orientation
> + many have changed (0,0,0)

I would prefer that the orientation and scaling match footprint so the
user doesn't have to change anything by default.  In other words, the
scaling is always 1 and the offsets and rotation angles are always 0.

> 
> We should definitely provide big red warning signs for users telling them of
> the potential problems and reminding them that they should archive all
> existing projects before switching if they make use of the kicad libraries. 
> 
> - Cirilo
> 
> 
> On Fri, Oct 2, 2015 at 6:24 AM, Wayne Stambaugh  > wrote:
> 
> The only down side is that as improvements are made to the 3D models,
> they would not be visible.  I hope at some point in the future our 3D
> models could be improved (some of material properties are very wrong)
> now that FreeCAD exports vrml files that the 3D viewer can use.  I would
> think the demos should track the latest and greatest to show case
> KiCad's capabilities.
> 
> The "everything" project archive sounds interesting but it should be
> discussed outside this bug report.
> 
> On 10/1/2015 4:15 PM, Chris Pavlina wrote:
> > It's a right shame we don't have any standalone project archive format
> > that holds *everything*. That would be *very* useful for this sort of
> > thing, as well as just generally making sure projects can always be 
> opened.
> >
> > I wonder if there is any developer interest in that besides me. It's
> > definitely on my list of things I'd like to work on post-release, but I
> > don't have much time lately...
> >
> > On Oct 1, 2015 3:52 PM, "nnn"  
>  >> wrote:
> >
> > Why not to add 3d files (from some old revision of library) to
> > projects folder and use paths relative to KIPRJMOD? If demos will
> > refer to some special revision of library with 3d models they will
> > break each time the models are moved or renamed.
> >
> >
> > W dniu 01.10.2015 o 16:20, Wayne Stambaugh pisze:
> >
> > I just committed a fix for broken 3D model link in the interf_u 
> demo
> > https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1500956.  While I was at 
> it, I
> > looked at the rest of the demos that have board files and they 

Re: [Kicad-developers] Call for help, no programming experience required.

[easyw]

I would prefer that the orientation and scaling match footprint so the
user doesn't have to change anything by default.  In other words, the
scaling is always 1 and the offsets and rotation angles are always 0.


that is exactly what I do with my 3D models in VRML and STEP for kicad 
StepUp

the lib of 3D parametric models is done in that way:
https://github.com/easyw/kicad-3d-models-in-freecad/tree/master/cadquery/FCAD_script_generator


On 02/10/2015 00.23, Wayne Stambaugh wrote:

On 10/1/2015 5:03 PM, Cirilo Bernardo wrote:

I think in general VRML models suffer from a somewhat random (0,0,0)
reference
and even the orientation is typically 1 of 4 common orientations.  This
is due in
part from the habits of whoever created the model and in part from the
modeling
software used. We will see more such problems when we have the capability to
use more types of models.  The only scheme I can think of so far which may
help with this issue is to have an optional file alongside each 3D model
file to
provide information needed to put the model into a nominal position. For
models
not at (0,0,0) such a scheme would also save people from typing the same
information into the VRML scale/rotation/translation box all the time.
The down
sides of course are these extra files and the fact that if 2 files have
the same
name but different (0,0,0) someone will have to remember to edit the
positioning
file. The file is not intended to replace the scale/rotation/translation
within KiCad
but to transparently add to it. The model manager can make this happen
without
additional user interaction. Unfortunately this scheme can only help to
create the
nominal position - whatever a user decides that must be. It doesn't help
at all
if footprints change their (0,0) reference between projects, which is
the case for
the newer THT footprints in the KiCad libraries.

Changes so far which can cause problems:
schematic symbols:
+ many changed size and the location of connection points
+ Diodes were made consistent so K is always Pin 1 (which I think should
have
been the case even for THT since K is the marked pin)
+ Orientations may have changed

footprints:
+ (0,0) reference for THT components has changed; I'm not familiar at
all with
the orientation of SMT footprints so I can't say if they've changed,
but some
rules were put in place to ensure a consistent orientation. I suspect
the (0,0)
position remains the 'center of body' since that's what's required by
placing
machines, but I haven't been following the changes.


Has anyone checked if the position files are correct for THT footprints
with the pin 1 reference points at 0,0?  If this breaks user's position
files used for pick & place, this is *really* bad and I would consider
this a potential stable release blocker.  Someone needs to confirm this
so we can make a decision.


+ Orientation has changed for many THT components

VRML models:
+ many have changed orientation
+ many have changed (0,0,0)


I would prefer that the orientation and scaling match footprint so the
user doesn't have to change anything by default.  In other words, the
scaling is always 1 and the offsets and rotation angles are always 0.



We should definitely provide big red warning signs for users telling them of
the potential problems and reminding them that they should archive all
existing projects before switching if they make use of the kicad libraries.

- Cirilo


On Fri, Oct 2, 2015 at 6:24 AM, Wayne Stambaugh > wrote:

 The only down side is that as improvements are made to the 3D models,
 they would not be visible.  I hope at some point in the future our 3D
 models could be improved (some of material properties are very wrong)
 now that FreeCAD exports vrml files that the 3D viewer can use.  I would
 think the demos should track the latest and greatest to show case
 KiCad's capabilities.

 The "everything" project archive sounds interesting but it should be
 discussed outside this bug report.

 On 10/1/2015 4:15 PM, Chris Pavlina wrote:
 > It's a right shame we don't have any standalone project archive format
 > that holds *everything*. That would be *very* useful for this sort of
 > thing, as well as just generally making sure projects can always be 
opened.
 >
 > I wonder if there is any developer interest in that besides me. It's
 > definitely on my list of things I'd like to work on post-release, but I
 > don't have much time lately...
 >
 > On Oct 1, 2015 3:52 PM, "nnn"  
>> wrote:
 >
 > Why not to add 3d files (from some old revision of library) to
 > projects folder and use paths relative to KIPRJMOD? If demos will
 > refer to some special revision of library with 3d models they will
 > break each time the models are moved or renamed.
 >

Re: [Kicad-developers] Call for help, no programming experience required.

[Henner Zeller]

On 1 October 2015 at 13:15, Chris Pavlina  wrote:
> It's a right shame we don't have any standalone project archive format that
> holds *everything*. That would be *very* useful for this sort of thing, as
> well as just generally making sure projects can always be opened.
>
> I wonder if there is any developer interest in that besides me. It's
> definitely on my list of things I'd like to work on post-release,

+1 that is definitely something to be considered.

> but I
> don't have much time lately...
>
> On Oct 1, 2015 3:52 PM, "nnn"  wrote:
>>
>> Why not to add 3d files (from some old revision of library) to projects
>> folder and use paths relative to KIPRJMOD? If demos will refer to some
>> special revision of library with 3d models they will break each time the
>> models are moved or renamed.
>>
>>
>> W dniu 01.10.2015 o 16:20, Wayne Stambaugh pisze:
>>>
>>> I just committed a fix for broken 3D model link in the interf_u demo
>>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1500956.  While I was at it, I
>>> looked at the rest of the demos that have board files and they are
>>> broken (one partially) as well.  Here is an opportunity for someone to
>>> help out the project and no programming experience is require.  All you
>>> need to know is how to associate 3D models with footprints in Pcbnew and
>>> how to use bzr to create branch and a patch (well documented many
>>> places).  If someone has time to do this before the stable release, it
>>> really would be nice if our demos showed off the 3D models.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Wayne
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>>> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>
>
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>

___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Kicad-developers] Call for help, no programming experience required.

[Cirilo Bernardo]

On Fri, Oct 2, 2015 at 8:23 AM, Wayne Stambaugh 
wrote:

> On 10/1/2015 5:03 PM, Cirilo Bernardo wrote:
>
[snip]

> > Changes so far which can cause problems:
> > schematic symbols:
> > + many changed size and the location of connection points
> > + Diodes were made consistent so K is always Pin 1 (which I think should
> > have
> >been the case even for THT since K is the marked pin)
> > + Orientations may have changed
> >
> > footprints:
> > + (0,0) reference for THT components has changed; I'm not familiar at
> > all with
> >the orientation of SMT footprints so I can't say if they've changed,
> > but some
> >rules were put in place to ensure a consistent orientation. I suspect
> > the (0,0)
> >position remains the 'center of body' since that's what's required by
> > placing
> >machines, but I haven't been following the changes.
>
> Has anyone checked if the position files are correct for THT footprints
> with the pin 1 reference points at 0,0?  If this breaks user's position
> files used for pick & place, this is *really* bad and I would consider
> this a potential stable release blocker.  Someone needs to confirm this
> so we can make a decision.
>
> > + Orientation has changed for many THT components
> >
> > VRML models:
> > + many have changed orientation
> > + many have changed (0,0,0)
>
> I would prefer that the orientation and scaling match footprint so the
> user doesn't have to change anything by default.  In other words, the
> scaling is always 1 and the offsets and rotation angles are always 0.
>
>
I think we would all prefer that, and for VRML models sculpted by users
there is no excuse to have anything different. My VRML modeling tools
have a simplistic tool to reorient/resize/reposition a model and batch
scripts can be written to fix any Wings3D exports (or models from other
sources). For MCAD sources however (IGES, STEP) it's a bit trickier.
Ideally we would have the MCAD and its original native data and re-export
the IGES or STEP file to conform to what KiCad expects, but this is an
unrealistic case. For IGES I can write a tool to repackage a model with a
correction applied to the position and orientation, but I don't see this
happening until at least the middle of 2016; similar tools would be needed
to tweak any other 3D formats which we support in the future.

- Cirilo

[snip]
___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp