Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Getting rid of 'oldref' in the help files

[Gabor Kelemen]

Hi all

2016-12-16 16:13 keltezéssel, Jan Holesovsky írta:
> The idea is to get rid of the 'oldref' attribute in the help files; ie.
> change
>
>l10n="U" oldref="13">Heading
>
> to
>
>l10n="U">Heading
I did not realized oldref being part of msgctxt, so in my recent help
commits removed a lot of these from the files I touched, even from
otherwise untouched strings. So I probably made quite a few fuzzy
strings - sorry about that.

With that being said, I fully support this move, like right now :).

Also if possible, please kill the l10n attribute along it. These two
make my eyes bleed while editing the original xml.

Regards
Gabor



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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: Getting rid of 'oldref' in the help files

[Martin Srebotnjak]

Hi, Jan,

2016-12-16 17:38 GMT+01:00 Jan Holesovsky :

> > It does not seem transparent for the few languages that do not use
> pootle (sl and sr) please do not forget those.
>
> Thanks for the reminder.  I hope Cloph can do the upgrade for them some
> way that fits them too, though?


I do not mind this happening if it does not affect the l10n process.

With that in mind the date/point at which it will be run must be set.

Probably this will happen after 5.3.x branch? It would make sense to do it
after the 5.3.0 release, when most l10n teams finish with their work and
have finished translating help, and still not started translating the 5.x
master. Or maybe after 5.3.1 release?

The sl and sr team would probably send their po files zipped (or they would
be taken from the git) and the script should be run through them and they
would be entered in the git and returned to respective l10n teams.

This conversion process (including the majority of l10n from Pootle) should
happen in a short span (like two working days, maybe more if required by
the scripts to go through all the languages and to check all converted
files for consistency by some other scripts).

Probably one (or a few) languages should be taken first to test this
procedure/the scripts and to have better estimates of time and resources
needed.

Lp, m.

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: Getting rid of 'oldref' in the help files

[Khaled Hosny]

On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 05:51:41PM +0100, khagaroth wrote:
> > there are many ways how to describe the same thing in html ('s and 's
> > vs.  and  vs. 's with css vs. who-knows-what)
> 
> CSS is the preferred way, its the same as with styles and direct formatting
> in Writer.

CSS is preferred for styling not semantics. But all of this is moot if
we don’t have an HTML5 help viewer anyway.

Regards,
Khaled

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[libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Getting rid of 'oldref' in the help files

[Jan Holesovsky]

Hi,

khagaroth píše v Pá 16. 12. 2016 v 17:51 +0100:

> > I hope you meant HTML 5, because XHTML is a dead end (and good riddance).
> 
> html does not have markup for some of the semantics that we have (and need)
> > in the help files (like  or  to name few)
> >
> 
> Both  and  are part of HTML 5 and there is a good chance
> the other things are as well.

They are, but they mean a completely different thing than what they mean
in XHP ;-)

 in XHP is more like .

Similarly  is more like a  with some associated css.

Again - I'm talking semantics;  is a general thing, and has no
semantics by itself, similarly .  We'd lose this by converting to a
plain HTML.

All the best,
Kendy


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[libreoffice-l10n] Re: Getting rid of 'oldref' in the help files

[khagaroth]

>
> it seems the goal is to move away from .xhp to .xhtml
>
> I hope you meant HTML 5, because XHTML is a dead end (and good riddance).

html does not have markup for some of the semantics that we have (and need)
> in the help files (like  or  to name few)
>

Both  and  are part of HTML 5 and there is a good chance
the other things are as well.

there are many ways how to describe the same thing in html ('s and 's
> vs.  and  vs. 's with css vs. who-knows-what)


CSS is the preferred way, its the same as with styles and direct formatting
in Writer.

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[libreoffice-l10n] Re: Getting rid of 'oldref' in the help files

[Jan Holesovsky]

Hi Jan,

Jan Iversen píše v Pá 16. 12. 2016 v 16:27 +0100:

> > this change is supposed to be transparent for L10n and
> > Documentation teams, but they should know :-)
> 
> It does not seem transparent for the few languages that do not use pootle (sl 
> and sr) please do not forget those.

Thanks for the reminder.  I hope Cloph can do the upgrade for them some
way that fits them too, though?

> It does also influence the help repo (of course), since the change will be a 
> very big commit.
> 
> > [Or - any objections to this change?]
> 
> No objections as I think it is a good and welcome change, just a question.
> 
> As we discussed in ESC (and Oliver sort of pushed) it seems the goal
> is to move away from .xhp to .xhtml (if I understood it correct). If
> decided do we then want to do that as a set of small steps or make 1
> script that does it ?

I tried to explain on the documentation@ why a big-bang move to html is
not a good idea from many reasons in another thread; to name the most
important ones:

* big-bang "let's abandon one technology and hooray for another one"
  always brings lots of regressions that are hard to fix in a timely
  manner; incremental changes are easier to maintain

* html does not have markup for some of the semantics that we have (and
  need) in the help files (like  or  to name few)

* there are many ways how to describe the same thing in html ('s and
  's vs.  and  vs. 's with css vs. who-knows-what)
  which would make the help harder to maintain, if we eg. want to reuse
  the information from there to generate other representations (like
  eg. books or so)

> Please just see this as a question of how often to we want to run these 
> conversions.

One more may be needed if we agree that the id="..." attribute could be
done non-mandatory, because that one affects the msgctx too.

If we want to make the XHP markup look more like HTML markup (which I
don't object in general & this is up to agreement between between the
Documentation and L10n people), there might be additional conversions
needed, for things like  ->  etc. - but I'd like to keep
this separate from the cleanup effort / topic.

All the best,
Kendy


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[libreoffice-l10n] Getting rid of 'oldref' in the help files

[Jan Holesovsky]

Hi Cloph, all,

I've recently proposed some help cleanups on the documentation@ ML, and
this is the first one of them.  I'm cross-posting to l10n@ and
documentation@ - this change is supposed to be transparent for L10n and
Documentation teams, but they should know :-)

The idea is to get rid of the 'oldref' attribute in the help files; ie.
change

  Heading

to

  Heading

The 'oldref' comes from helpcontent -> helpcontent2 migration, and the
documentation says "This contains the reference number used by the old
help files and is only used for migration purposes."

Unfortunately, it is used in the msgctx flag in the .po files, like:

#: main0503.xhp
msgctxt ""
"main0503.xhp\n"
"hd_id3155084\n"
"21\n"
"help.text"
msgid "Flexible Application Interface"
msgstr "Snadno přizpůsobitelné uživatelské rozhraní"

The "21\n" above is the oldref.

As we talked on the IRC - unless there are any objections, can you
please do your magic with the next translation update so that we remove
these oldrefs from the helpcontent, the .po templates, and .po
translations themselves?

The helpcontent2 part of that is this:

  git grep -l 'oldref="[0-9]*"' | xargs sed -i 's/