From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [lace] Re: Advent Calendar problems
Dear Jean and David Leader,
It seems that we on Arachne owe you a very special public *Thank You* for
your annual efforts to amuse and challenge us during the Christmas season...
Hear, hear!
I love your Advent
Claire Allen wrote:
I'm not quite sure how Father Christmas can offend people from other
faiths when he is not exactly a religious symbol himself.
I too am an Atheist and I celebrate Christmas as the winter solstice
festival that was hijacked when Christianity came to this country. And
if
One year we decided to celebrate Roman Saturnalia instead of
Christmas. I did a lot of research on this but in the end, it was
surprising how similar the Saturnalia was to Christmas. For instance,
the giving of fruitcake is from Saturnalia and the wearing of peaked
hats like Santa hats and the
The woven paper hearts are a Swedish traditional decoration, for
Christmas!'d suggest you make a few with colored construction paper and
you'll quickly understand what to do with the lace pieces once you've made
them.
To learn how to make them, look at this web site:
http://permo.homepage.dk/
Not only am *I* a dyed-in-the-wool atheist
Me too. Last year, while writing a Christmas card to my neighbours, I did
stop to wonder why an atheist was sending a Christmas card to a Muslim
family!
When I was a Catholic, a long, long time ago, I used to think that
non-Christians who celebrated
Her message is rife with inuendo if not actual reference and it is in more
than the sig. I will quote the two most offensive parts...That the extent is limited is not
my fault; I don't happen to have any shares in Enron or Haliburton, nor am I in the upper 2% bracket, so my
income has plummeted
I've never seen 90/2 Pipers' silk, and their website doesn't list it
either.
I haven't checked Piper's web site recently, but their price list from
Jan 2004 still lists 90/2 Twisted gloss silk - I'm actually using it at
the moment to make a fan. I hope they haven't discontinued it!
Regards,
The fan I'm making at the moment is fairly small, and fits across the
flattish top of an 18 cookie pillow. I can't get a pillow much larger
than that, because it would strain my shoulders to reach it (I have
short arms and injured shoulders!). The Kleinhout pillow has two
pie-shaped movable
Rather than having a pillow especially for fans I made an extension for my
22 inch round pillow.
That sounds like a good idea. I can't make that kind of thing myself,
but I might be able to find someone who can.
Thanks!
Annette, London
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From what I've heard, the Newnham pillows were superb - it's a shame
they're not still available. The disc pillow you mention sounds a bit
like the collar pillow that Central Scotland Lace Supplies do. They also
have a fan pillow that sounds like the Newnham one. I've already been
referred to
I bought an oval pillow from the lace suppliers in Scotland - the name
is
something like Central Scotland Lace Suppliers. It's the equivalent of a
24
inch round pillow, but with two chunks chopped off so that it has
parallel
straight sides. The advantage of this shape is that it's easier to
Not in London, but easily accessible... The weekend of December 4/5th
is the country's largest lace fair, at the National Exhibition Centre in
Birmingham. You can get to Birmingham in 90 minutes by train from
London Euston, and the NEC has its own station.
Regards,
Annette
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Thank you for all your comments about Elwynn Kenn's books. I bought
Australian Wildflowers in Point Ground yesterday from Jacqui
(Larkholme Lace) at Swanley Lacemaker's lace day. The patterns look
lovely , though it'll be a while before I can try them. It sounds as if
I will have to look
I have a copy of Elwynn Kenn's Point Gound Patterns from Australia and
am wondering how different her other books are, ie is it worth getting
the other books as well? Are the patterns all different? I'm not
ready to do her patterns yet, but after hearing of the problems people
have getting
I think there is a point where the copyright issue becomes just a silly
bit of nonsense. If you're making items to raise money for a cause, I
would say make them, sell them, and if someone wants to come sue you, let
them come. Imagine how silly THEY would look, having their attorney send a
nasty
It depends whether she went in the morning or the afternoon. I was
there in the afternoon with my mother and another lady called Janice...
Best wishes,
Liz Pass,In Poole, Dorset, UK
It turns out my mother went to the show on Friday morning, not Saturday after all. I
went last year because I
Thanks very much for all the notes and suggestions about working
hands-up. I've had a go (I had already looked at the picture on Jo
Falkink's website, after Tamara mentioned it in a message about Prague,
so I tried tilting up my cookie pillow as in the picture), and it's not
as good as I
My mother went to see the Dorset Arts and Crafts show yesterday and
mentioned there was someone there demonstrating lace. Was this one of you?
She said the lace the demonstrator had on show was lovely, that there
was some Bucks Point there (I didn't even know she could recognise Bucks
Point -
* of lacemaking: hanging
bobbins and holding them in the palm of your hands. So I try to give
an answer from here. I am used to work on flat and on bolster pillows.
Annette Gill schrieb:
I'm thinking of trying to work hands-up, either by making a pillow
from a pool noodle, or buying a bolster
I'd agree - if a book is still in print, you can order it from any
bookshop, so I don't think the seller can describe it as rare.
Jean Nathan wrote:
So that will apply also to every book on weaving, embroidery, tennis, horse
riding, and any other hobby, but it doesn't make them rare, especially
I'm thinking of trying to work hands-up, either by making a pillow from
a pool noodle, or buying a bolster pillow from the Honiton Lace shop.
(I may be visiting Honiton in a couple of weeks). 'But I'm still a bit
confused as to how you actually do this. I'm vaguely aware that if you
work
Tamara,
What about an electronic version that we foreigners could buy and print
off ourselves? That would get round the prohibitive postal costs.
I'm sure we're all honest enough not to share out an electronic copy to
others who haven't paid for it!
Regards,
Annette
--- Tamara P. Duvall
Jean,
Thanks for the info about the pool noodles. I'll try and see if there's
a supplier locally, and if not I'll try the shop in Poole. My mother
often goes up to Poole on the train to shop (from Weymouth) but she
walks with a stick, so I don't think she could manage to carry a 5ft
pool
It was the same price as Stiffy which I don't like because it goes
yellow-y.
Do you mean it yellows in time, or when you first put it on? I used
some last year on some Christmas ornaments, and it did make them a
little less white than they were before. Will they yellow further over
time?
I
Saw these 5 feet long blue, green, red or yellow cylinders obviously made of
foam in a shop in Poole, and thought how useful one would be for the centre
of a small roller. Then the penny dropped that they must be pool noodles.
Never seen one before.
Jean in Poole
Do you mind me asking which shop
For projects where you choose to use Thumpers, or continental
bobbins which don't have spangles, most lace vendors carry a bobbin
holder that is wood and has an elastic cord that holds the bobbins in
place - and in order.
I can't get on with those at all -I find the bobbins don't always stay
I note that the original problem was not really *breaking* so much as the
thread pulling apart which happens when it becomes untwisted. I have had
students with this problem with the white Madeira and I feel it is maybe
something to do with the way they handle the thread when winding or how they
Thank you all for your definitions of ornery - I think I have the flavour of
it now! I realise this subject was straying into Chat territory, but I've
had to unsubscribe from Lace-Chat - wading through the digests of two lists
is too much for my RSI at the moment.
Thanks also for the tip on the
Margot and Lorri,
Many thanks for your suggestions - I'll follow them both up. I'm going to the
Chelmsford lace fair today - perhaps I should take a magnet and look for
magnetic pins! ;)
Regards,
Annette, London
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Is there such a thing as a magnetic pin pusher? I'm thinking of something
like the magnetic screwdrivers that loosely hold on to the screw so all
you have to do is guide it into the hole and then screw it in.
Holding a fine pin, locating the pinhole with it and then pushing it in is
causing me
BRITISH LACE EVENTS IN MAY
Does anyone know of any residential lace courses and/or lace days in the UK
in May?
Great Escapes have a course running on 21st-23rd May with Sandi Woods in
Derbyshire. The URL I have for them doesn't seem to be working, but the
email address is [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Der Kloppelbrief wurde um eine DIN-Stufe verkleinert!
DIN is a German standards body. So I think what this is saying is that the
pattern has been reduced by one DIN size - I assume that means by one size
on the photocopier. That probably means the A and B paper sizes that we use
in Europe.
On the 12th day of the Eurocentrically imposed midwinter
festival, my Significant Other in a consenting adult monogamous
relationship gave to me:
TWELVE males reclaiming their inner warrior through ritual
drumming,
ELEVEN pipers piping (plus the 18-member pit orchestra made
up of members in good
From: Avital Pinnick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I have not noticed any increase in spam since using mail-archive...
I've noticed a big increase in spam since I joined Arachne. It may be
nothing to do with the archiving, and it may be nothing to do with Arachne
at all, but I do get a lot more spam now
I've never bought red shoes, but my first pair of ballet shoes were red
leather.
When I was a teenager, I bought a pair of yellow plastic platform clogs,
with 5 or 6 heels. I had a matching yellow blouse too, and the first time
I wore the ensemble, I walked into town and thought I was the bee's
Jane wrote:
I think at 3pm they were announcing the draw - we all met up at 2pm,
Jean :-).
Did we really? By the time I got home I was too tired remember what time
things happened. I still haven't really recovered, even with the bucket of
candy floss yesterday. I haven't even looked at
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [lace-chat] Re: [lace] NEC
Annette and I had a fabulous day, yesterday, at the NEC.
I loved it - I had a ball! It was my first visit, and I spent way too much
money, but then my excuse is that I'm new to this and there's lots that I
still need. I daren't
I live *inside* a block!
The area of south-east London where I live was laid out for residential use
between the wars. It wasn't exactly a proper grid, but where I live now was
what could be described as a block. It was a Ministry of Defence site (I've
no idea what it was there for). In the
Dear Annette,
...She also says, on page 48, that the two pairs of bobbins hung on
a temporary pin are actually used double - i.e., although you have
two pairs, treat them as one. If it was me, I think I'd be tying
each pair together after I'd worked the first pin, to remind me
to use
If you like making lace, you might as well bite the bullet and make the
best investment of your life; buy Brenda Paternoster's booklet Threads
for Lace; edition 2 :)
Tamara P Duvall
Sandy,
I'd second this. I'm a beginner too (I started lacemaking this summer), and
this book was recommended
Can anyone shed any light on Geraldine Stott's method of staring a Torchon
bookmark, as described in The Bobbin Lace Manual? The description is a
bit vague, and I've tried a couple of different interpretations, but
they're clearly both wrong.
If anyone can clarify what she means, I'd be very
I love square bobbins, and have asked all the UK lace suppliers I know
about
them . . . . there doesn't seem any demand for them in the UK , so no
supply
. .:-(
Sulochona
Chris Parsons does them. They're not on his website or in his catalogue,
but if you phone him, he'll send them. (
Sorry, I forgot to mention that Winslow also do square bobbins, a couple
of types.
Regards,
Annette, London
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Some years ago I purchased a pair of square bobbins for my secret pal of
the time. It must have been at chepstow and therefore would have been
from Winslow bobbins, I think...
Patricia in Wales
Yes, Winslow still do square bobbins, I have some - they do a couple of
different types.
Regards,
A story in the Evening Standard yesterday...
A man recently caught a late night train home to Penge, a south London
suburb. During the journey he dozed off, only to be woken by strange
noises. He opened his eyes to see the couple opposite him making like
Bill and Monica. The other passengers,
Does anyone know if there really is an English translation for the
Tonderkniplinger 2 book by Inge Skovgaard? I'm getting contradictory
answers from UK suppliers.
Regards,
Annette, London
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Is anyone else in London still waiting for their copy of the latest Lace
magazine? I seem to have received everything else that got caught up in the
post strike, but not this.
Regards,
Annette, London
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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 23:51:20 -0500
From: Tamara P. Duvall [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Because being anti (again, anti *anything*) is restricted
It's often used as an accusation here. For example, people who are
anti-Bush are being labelled by some as being anti-American. People who are
anti-Iraq
Well the BBC is generally regarded as heavily influenced by the
British Foreign Office, which has a pro-Palestinian, anti-Israel bias (for
example, the egregious misquoting of a White House official in which the
word terrorist was replaced by activist). The BBC was recently singled
out for
My sisters and I have a tradition of treating the one celebrating their
fiftieth birthday to a girls weekend. This coming weekend we're doing
another celebration. I need some cute and funny ideas for posters,
banners,
signs, etc. to decorate our hotel room. I'm doing an iron-on transfer for
a
I think it's a joke, but it's been said that Ken Livingstone is insisting
that the congestion charge (for travelling by car in central London) will
have to be paid and will amount to 600 pounds a day for the entourage
Jean, I laughed louder at that than I did at Room 101 this evening - which
was
... Don't unsubscribe from spam emails - just delete
them and ignore them. Responses let them know that your email address is
live and could generate more scams/spam.
Jean in Poole
And don't even open messages you suspect are spam. I didn't realise until
recently that some emails contain
Ah, the Swindon Magic Roundabout! I lived in Swindon for a few years, when
I worked at Intel. Whenever a colleague visited from our sister site in
Oregon, we would usually tell our visitor about the Magic Roundabout. Given
that they were already disomfitted by driving on the wrong side of the
It doesn't make me *suicidal*(only Gregorian chants have that power
g), but it sure saps all my will to continue living :)
Tamara P Duvall
Me too! I think it's a Pavlovian response to enforced coach trips to
Buckfast Abbey as a child (a 2 hour drive that usually left me feeling
car-sick).
Annette:
well. not to get a flaming, bickering thread going but Equal time for the
opposing view:
there are plenty of us in the world who don't have a high opinon of MT.
Sue Ellen
That's so ironic! I'm with you and Christopher Hitchens on MT, but was
scared of saying anything in my message
I'm argumentative by nature, and I *like* a well-reasoned argument,
whether I agree with the final findings or not; it's the beauty of
looking at something (anything: lace problem, philosophical problem,
language/thought process relationship, a twig) from more than one angle
that appeals to
Wow - so I'm not the only one! I too love well-reasoned argument, and get
very frustrated by the sloppy way many things are discussed these days in
public, in newspapers and so on.
I think I've put my foot in it again... I didn't mean to suggest that
Tamara and I are the only ones who like a
Have you tried Croydon?! g Whenever I go there, (which is not often!) I
memorise where I'm supposed to go on the map, and when I get there, I find
the place bears absolutely no relationship to the map whatsoever. It's as
if the people who drew up the A-Z thought the place was so complicated they
I just had a giggle at work today. I work as librarian in a public (city)
library, and someone rang up this morning to ask whether we had a book
she'd
read about in the weekend newspaper. The book sounds quite OK, but the
title
is... The missionary position it has a subtitle (which I have
All the examples given were *male*; is colour-blindness one of those
things (like hemophilia, I think) which women *carry*, but only men *get*?
Yes, like haemophilia, it's determind by a gene on the X chromosome, so
although women can get it, it's much rarer for us than for men. So you're
...carrying a handbag and keeping track of it doesn't seem to be second
nature to men the way it is to women :)
One of my students a couple of weeks ago (I'm an IT trainer) says he
carries a laptop computer case around with him, and uses it like a woman
uses a handbag, to carry his stuff. Being
I did eventually learn that if north was up on a map, west and east
spelled WE . . .
I learned that too, but I still have to stop and think about it. If I run
down to the Tube in a hurry, and am faced with a westbound and an eastbound
platform and a train on one of them, and have to make a quick
...The sooner you can get comfortable with the diagrams, the sooner the
whole world of bobbin lace opens to you. Then you will graduate to the
patterns with nothing but a pricking and there will be nothing to stop you!
Robin P.
I'm not sure I need to hear that. g I'm already neglecting other
Thanks for the explanations of the colour codes. I think I stand a chance now
of working out how to do some of these French, Finnish and Danish patterns!
I'm still inexperienced, so my kind of level at the moment is the detailed
instructions Christine Springett and Roz Snowden give for their
The BCC (Belgian Colour Code; *not* before computer crash g ) *is*
lovely but, once it had been sprung on lacemakers, it began to
evolve, so it is no longer pure; every country has its own Middle
Ages Latin version of it, with *sub*-philosophies within the overall
pattern/rule... :)
Where can I
Why would you be driving on the pavement? We drive on the road and walk on
the pavement (sidewalk).
Jean in Poole
And if you're a cyclist, you ride on the pavement - or at least they do in
London. And speed through red lights... And go the wrong way down one-way
streets... Grrr!
London
I want to buy a round roller pillow (I can't get on with continental bobbins
rolling around on my flat block pillow). I know SMP have one, but does anyone
know of any other supplier who does them in the UK?
Regards,
Annette, London
PS I dreamed last night that torrential rain was falling on
the UK is just being hit by a postal strike. It's not in all
areas of the country at the moment, but it is spreading. The problem is
with
post going through an area where the postal workers are already on strike,
like London.
I ordered some lace supplies from Makit on Monday, and am
I returned home last evening, having had my knee replacement operation on
Thursday last week to over a hundred emails in lace and lace-chat
Jean in Poole
I hope you've recovered by now. Were you in Poole General? My mother had a
couple of operations there a few years ago, and it seemed
in base 13 What is 6 x 9? has the answer 42
Was it ever established whether Douglas Adams knew this when he wrote
Hitchiker? I can't remember.
Regards,
Annette
To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line:
unsubscribe lace-chat [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to
In my dialect, the a of orange actually sounds more like the o of
women, and the a in mange is like the ay in day... But there's another
problem: the stress on orange is on the first syllable, and mange is a
one-syllable word.
Yes, that's the way we'd say it in England too.
Annette
To
My first trip to London ('68) I fell, *totally*, in love with the tube,
and especially with the little no-nonsense maps of it.
It's hard now to imagine how revolutionary that map of Frank Pick's was when
it was introduced in - what, the 20s? 30s? I forget. Having seen a
pre-Pick map of the
Thank you very much for the various explanations about Springetts and
Fountains. I see both Springetts and Fountains are at the NEC.
I have another question though. I've just started experimenting with Bucks
Thumpers and I think they'll be ideal for me - nice and big. I've so far
found that
Many years ago, I was much impressed by the London underground when I
became separated from my tour group, and made it back to the hostel all on
my own, without asking anyone, or ever once feeling uncertain longer than it
took to read a sign
It's certainly well signed and the maps are clear.
Are any of you going to the NEC Christmas Lace Suppliers Fair
Birmingham on 29 November - am organising a coach and it would be
lovely to meet some of you there.
Bye for now
Nicky
I'm hoping to go. I was originally going to go on the Sunday but the
trains from London are so bad that
I just wanted to say sorry to those who are kind enough to help me with my
various questions if I don't reply for several days. I'm really struggling
these days with RSI, and both typing and lacemaking make it worse. Often it's
not possible to answer email promptly. As a novice, I'm very
I'm glad I'm not the only who can't control my credit card when I'm at Ally
Pally! The Textile Gallery alone is worth the price of admission - there
are always so many gorgeous things there, to look at and to buyand to get
ideas from. I was fascinated by the display of dolls, and inevitably
Dear Annette,
...
I've also done some Downton lace - again, not difficult, although
traditionally, like Chantilly, the headside is worked on the opposite side
to
Bucks. But watch the Downton patterns carefully, as they occasionally
have a
little Torchon technique or two thrown in!!
I hadn't realised that exhibition was used at all in the US, let alone
that there was such a fine distinction between exhibition and exhibit.
Thanks for all the comments on this. Now I know!
I think to American ears, grown accustomed to the shorthand of the press,
exhibit sounds 'right' while
Did anyone go to The Knitting and Stitching Show at Ally Pally this weekend?
I came away loaded down with lace books - it was my first chance since I
started lacemaking this summer to see a decent range of lace books. I got the
first of the Tonderknipplinger pattern books but I haven't worked out
Now that I live in England, 't Apostelientje in Brugge is on my must
stop list for going back and forth to the continent!
Do you have any further details about the shop?
I remember going to Bruges about 25 years ago and seeing some lacemakers,
but I wasn't really interested in lacemaking then.
The firewall that comes with XP is fairly basic, so I'd get another one if
you can. I use Zone Alarm ( from www.zonelabs.com )- the version I use is
free, although you can buy Zone Alarm Pro which has more features. The
free version seems to work well.
I don't know about Norton's firewall (I
I use a piece of fabric that's made from cotton and has a small pile - I don't
know what it's called. I bought it to use when beading. I'm not very
experienced with continentals yet, but I think it does make a difference. The
bobbins still rolled pretty badly the first time I tried them and the
Couldn't find a picture of this on Tim's website - it this like a latch
hook?
Regards
Liz Beecher
Further to what Clay has said, it has quite a deep, sharp hook, which holds
the thread more easily than a crochet hook does. Other than that, it's like a
crochet hook with the tip bent back, at
Thanks - I'll bear that in mind. I wasn't really aware of the different
twists on thread until I read Brenda Paternoster's book. A very useful
book - but I never realised thread was so complicated!
Regards,
Annette, London
Hi Annette -
I have found that the silk I work with (Tire) likes to
Adele,
Thank you very much for all this! I had been looking at Piper's Silks' web
site and was confused as to which thread to use, but it sounds as if spun
silk is the one to start with.
The patterns I've been trying so far are mainly from Roz Snowden's books (I
go to her for classes).
Patty,
Thank very much for your notes about the silk threads, and the tips about
wetting the knots. I know I can get Pipers Silks in the UK from their web
site, but I will look out for the other threads you mention.
What are insect pins? I've never heard of them!
Regards,
Annette,
London
Thank you to the people who described a couple of weeks ago how to do sewings
with a Lazy Susan (sorry, I can't remember who it was). My first attempt at
sewings, a couple of months ago, was deeply traumatic, as I was using a fine
crochet hook. I swore I'd never do sewings again. But after
what they saw was people bent over pillows doing complex puzzle solving.
At one point I heard a lacemaker characterize us as The MENSA of the
craft world, which I thought was an interesting idea.
I've certainly been struck by the long and literate posts to this list.
Most other craft lists I've
the emblem for Poole Bobbin Lace Circle is a dolphin on top of a Bucks
Thumper bobbin. The signigicance of the dolphin in this case is that it's
the emblem of the town of Poole, where we have the Dophin Shopping Centre,
swimming poole, etc.
I've always wondered why Poole's emblem is the dolphin.
You can see these United States stamps at:
http://lace.lacefairy.com/LaceStamps/LaceStamps.htm
Lori, I notice you've described one of the 2 British stamps as British
Explorer. That's not just any British Explorer, that's Sir Walter Raleigh!
I hope he wasn't wearing that nice lace ruff when his
The lace looks really pretty! I hope the whole hanky turned out well.
Enjoy the wedding.
Regards,
Annette, London
PS Nice Borg quote - don't remember that one!
--- C. Morse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm mostly a lurker on
this group, but I just finished a piece
of lace to attach to a hanky,
Pre-pricking saves pins, saves fingertips, and makes your lace more
precise (which can be very
important as you get into the finer threads) and therefore more beautiful.
I also find it helps with putting the pins in. If I can't see the place I'm
supposed to be putting in the pin very well (eg if
--- Leonard Bazar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
If you visit John Lewis, Oxford Street, and/or
Liberty's (both not as good as they were, but still
marvellous) don't miss Mccullough Wallace,
etc etc
Thanks for all these recommendations. I wasn't aware of these, and have
been looking for good
--- Beth McCasland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Wtih the talk about Liberty of London (I have an apple pincushion), and
stores in New York... If you're ever in San Francisco, may I suggest
Britex Fabric store? Wonderful 4 story fabric store with lots of fabric
for couture sewing ...
Sounds
Trust me, that Bournemouth Hobbycraft is a model of helpfulness compared to
my local one at Crayford. Their displays are a mess, there are gaps in
their stock, and the staff don't seem to know anything much.
Regards,
Annette in London
- Original Message -
From: Jean Nathan [EMAIL
Yes, the VA opens on Mondays now. The costume department itself is super
- well worth visiting. The VA shop also has books on crafts that she
might like.
Jeri, you forgot to tell her that if she's going to follow your itinerary
in London, she needs to bring a LOT of money! I could spend a
Elizabeth,
Congratulations to your mother on her Highly Commended! I remember the
Crinoline Lady, and it was very good. I hope the seahorse goes well too. I'm
impressed at the way people can make lace in spite of various physical
problems - I always assumed you had to have dextrous hands and
An alternative method is to cut the pricking slightly smaller than the
card,
and take a piece of 'blue transparent film' slightly larger, and use this to
attach the pricking to the card. You then have to prick all the holes, as
before, but you don't have to draw any lines. The main disadvantage of
A few weeks ago, someone was talking about the fact that you can't post
pictures to this list, and mentioned that this had been discussed a lot in the
past. As a newcomer, I don't know what solututions were proposed and
rejected, but wondered whether anyone had suggested setting up a Yahoo Group
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