Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager issues pending
Hi all, Le 29/05/2013 23:35, Cor Nouws a écrit : Rafael Dominguez wrote (20-05-13 04:05) I did the rest of them already, ill push it tomorrow and ill send you a msg after, so you can test it. Hi Rafael, Just to make sure that I didn't miss anything: did you already have a change to push the work? As a reminder, the implementation started by Raphael seems : - complicated to code (OS specific) - difficult to maintain (because of OS specific) - not the best UX If it's still not implemented, why not switch to another solution: -- after the OpenFile picker, just add a dialog to ask user what he wants to do (open template or create a new doc from template). This solution is : - much easier to implement (I suppose it should be few lines of code) - easy to maintain (std VCL code) - a good UX (confirmed by Cedric and Mirek) Cheers, Michel ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager issues pending
Rafael Dominguez wrote (20-05-13 04:05) I did the rest of them already, ill push it tomorrow and ill send you a msg after, so you can test it. Hi Rafael, Just to make sure that I didn't miss anything: did you already have a change to push the work? Kind regards, Cor -- - Cor - http://nl.libreoffice.org - www.librelex.org ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager issues pending
Hi all, Cor Nouws wrote (20-05-13 01:36) Cedric Bosdonnat wrote (13-05-13 09:50) On Sat, 2013-05-11 at 10:47 +0200, Mirek M. wrote: I'm not the best person to design for the dialog. Still I find this design from you :) https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Copying_Styles_from_Templates - I've added a description of the situation pre 4.0 Which is useful to consider proposals for the needed new situation Also I added some ideas for - the design by Mirek - the places where this dialog may be used, Is it then OK when I create a little changed mockup? 59427 - [Template Manager] low discoverability of new template manager - we could use File → Organize templates menu I agree Still on the todo-list, sadly didn't manage to come to it. What are your ideas? I find this a nasty problem to solve. One could think of: File Template Save (exists in 4.0 in different wording) File Template Edit/Manage but then the latter would simply open the new File from template dialog? I've still not found any better idea. If this is OK for all, I can try to help getting this in the code too. OK? Best regards, Cor -- - Cor - http://nl.libreoffice.org - www.librelex.org ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager issues pending
Hi ... Would be really lovely to get some more feed back on the mail from last week! Cor Cor Nouws wrote (20-05-13 01:36) Hi all, Thanks for the ideas / proposals. Here few additions from me: \ -- - Cor - http://nl.libreoffice.org - www.librelex.org ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager issues pending
Hi all, Le 20/05/2013 02:28, Cor Nouws a écrit : Cor Nouws wrote (20-05-13 01:39) only managed to add the checkbox option to the gtk+, kde4 and native dialogs, still pending the windows one and mac, but i dont have access to a mac, so its hard to work on that one. Joren - also in cc here - does have and does some useful patches now and then. No idea if he would be able and willing... just posting the hint ;) Another idea - by far the simplest, but less elegant - When a user opens a template, give a popup ( :D ) You choose a template Do you want a new file from that template or edit the template ? [[ New document ]] [ Edit template ] New document = default Ideas? Well, that was already proposed 2 times in this thread ! ;-) First by Raphael on 09/04/2013, then myself on 11/05/2013. Mirek and Cedric acknowledged that it should be the right way to do. The remaining point seems to be how to ask user : - a modal dialog ? - an infobar ? is 'infobar' something like that : https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Infobar ? so, IMHO, I think that an infobar is too late in the opening process : - the infobar is shown above the newly created window (the opened template or the newly created file) - if a click in a button of infobar closes the current window and open another, it may disturb the user - is it technically ok to close the current window and open another from an infobar ? It seems to me that a simple dialog before opening template/creating new file is technically much simpler and more obvious for users. Michel ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager issues pending
Le 20/05/2013 09:34, pierre-yves.sa...@laposte.net a écrit : Hello to all Just to clarify this because I fear that my proposals have been misunderstood. 61396 - FILEOPEN: [Template Manager]Possibility to edit a template that is not in the repository, is lacking I saw a comment with the proposal : when a user does Open from the File menu and selects a template, then LO should open the template ; instead of creating a new file from the template. Could work, but would _introduce_ the opposite problem, that a user cannot start a new file from a template that is not in the template repository... My proposal is: 1. File Open Select a .ot(tsg...) file creates a new document (current behavior, no change) 2. File Open Select a .ot(tsg...) file *AND* select type: ODF model xxx edits the model New behavior that does not introduce the problem raised by Cor: - user can start a new file from any template - user can edit any template - the dialog already has everything that is needed. (no checkbox or other additional control required). While I understand what Pierre-Yves discusses, I'd emphasise smthg here. From a user POV, if I File / Open / Template : I want to *open* a template, ie modify it. This is *not* what a user wants on a regular basis. If I File / New / Template, I guess this should state File / New / From template, I want to create a *new* document *from* a template. This is what a user wants most of the time. I guess the words have some weight here. -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager issues pending
Michel Renon wrote (20-05-13 16:25) Well, that was already proposed 2 times in this thread ! ;-) Great that your memory is better then mine :-) Thanks for summarising... It seems to me that a simple dialog before opening template/creating new file is technically much simpler and more obvious for users. ... but seen the latest work by Rafael, I think we can park the discussion (at least for the moment). Ciao, -- - Cor - http://nl.libreoffice.org - www.librelex.org ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager issues pending
Hi all, Thanks for the ideas / proposals. Here few additions from me: Cedric Bosdonnat wrote (13-05-13 09:50) Hi Mirek, Michel, On Sat, 2013-05-11 at 10:47 +0200, Mirek M. wrote: 60589 - [Template manager]: Can not copy styles between different files and templates [...] Given that I wasn't in favor of the shift in focus to organizing templates rather than creating new documents from templates, For me that also was a rather unexpected move in the process: I did not understand before that also the menu File Template and the sub menus with the various functions were to be removed. But that's history. I'm not the best person to design for the dialog. Still I find this design from you :) https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Copying_Styles_from_Templates thanks! - I've added a description of the situation pre 4.0 Which is useful to consider proposals for the needed new situation Also I added some ideas for - the design by Mirek - the places where this dialog may be used, 61396 - FILEOPEN: [Template Manager]Possibility to edit a template that is not in the repository, is lacking I saw a comment with the proposal : when a user does Open from the File menu and selects a template, then LO should open the template ; instead of creating a new file from the template. It seems to be a coherent behavior : the user selects the command open so LO must open. When the user selects new from template, then LO must create a new file from a template. Sounds good. If everyone agrees on that, then it should be pretty quick to fix. Could work, but would _introduce_ the opposite problem, that a user cannot start a new file from a template that is not in the template repository... Currently, I do not see a way out without adding a (visual) option to the file open dialog.. (as discussed in another thread). Alternatively, I did thought of making the Edit button in the new dialog having a submenu, where you can choose Edit other template or something. Little problem there: the Edit button is only active when a template is selected.. But maybe there is a solution? If you really want to prevent modification of bad file, maybe add an dialog asking confirmation : Do you really want to open the template 'test.ott' ? or create a new file from this template ? Perhaps an infobar might be better? Yes, InfoBar is the thing to use here. That would indeed be needed to prevent unwanted editing of a file. Do not forget that a. many people do not get/notice the difference between .ott and .odt and b. file managers depending on settings hide extensions (but honestly I did not check how it looks on WIndows with that option checked for the Explorer.) But I wrote _would_ be needed. As written further above: I don think alas that it is a solution. 59427 - [Template Manager] low discoverability of new template manager - we could use File → Organize templates menu I agree Still on the todo-list, sadly didn't manage to come to it. What are your ideas? I find this a nasty problem to solve. One could think of: File Template Save (exists in 4.0 in different wording) File Template Edit/Magage but then the latter would simply open the new File from template dialog? Cheers, Cor -- - Cor - http://nl.libreoffice.org - www.librelex.org ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager issues pending
Cor Nouws wrote (20-05-13 01:39) only managed to add the checkbox option to the gtk+, kde4 and native dialogs, still pending the windows one and mac, but i dont have access to a mac, so its hard to work on that one. Joren - also in cc here - does have and does some useful patches now and then. No idea if he would be able and willing... just posting the hint ;) Another idea - by far the simplest, but less elegant - When a user opens a template, give a popup ( :D ) You choose a template Do you want a new file from that template or edit the template ? [[ New document ]] [ Edit template ] New document = default Ideas? -- - Cor - http://nl.libreoffice.org - www.librelex.org ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager issues pending
Joren wrote (20-05-13 02:00) Willing to help: SURE! Able to help ... mmh, I don't know :-). At least I can test on Mac if new patches comes out (or if you have a draft patch I can verify/test it on mac. I'm not sure I can develop something for mac (without bugging other devs to help me out :) ). So please tell me where I can be of any help in this project/task. It's about _adding_ a checkbox to the File Open dialog. But Rafael knows more about it. -- - Cor - http://nl.libreoffice.org - www.librelex.org ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager issues pending
I did the rest of them already, ill push it tomorrow and ill send you a msg after, so you can test it. On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Cor Nouws oo...@nouenoff.nl wrote: Joren wrote (20-05-13 02:00) Willing to help: SURE! Able to help ... mmh, I don't know :-). At least I can test on Mac if new patches comes out (or if you have a draft patch I can verify/test it on mac. I'm not sure I can develop something for mac (without bugging other devs to help me out :) ). So please tell me where I can be of any help in this project/task. It's about _adding_ a checkbox to the File Open dialog. But Rafael knows more about it. -- - Cor - http://nl.libreoffice.org - www.librelex.org ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager issues pending
Rafael Dominguez wrote (20-05-13 04:05) I did the rest of them already, ill push it tomorrow and ill send you a msg after, so you can test it. Wow :) thanks a lot! -- - Cor - http://nl.libreoffice.org - www.librelex.org ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager issues pending
Hi Mirek, Michel, On Sat, 2013-05-11 at 10:47 +0200, Mirek M. wrote: * The way the template manager is now is miles away from the proposed design. The proposed design was a simple iCloud/Gnome Documents-like template launcher with a two level hierarchy. [1][2] The current implementation is a more conventional complex Explorer-like file manager with unlimited hierarchy. Given that I wasn't in favor of the shift in focus to organizing templates rather than creating new documents from templates, I'm not the best person to design for the dialog. Allowing multiple levels in the hierarchy is only a plan ATM as there is still some work to do on it to have it working. Local templates are also not supposed to have more than 2 levels of hierarchy and this is defined by the UNO API for handling templates (not the template manager). The dialog seems to support only a two level hierarchy, so it's not compatible with the current template manager folder structure. It is completely compatible: the folder structure for local template hasn't changed. 61396 - FILEOPEN: [Template Manager]Possibility to edit a template that is not in the repository, is lacking I saw a comment with the proposal : when a user does Open from the File menu and selects a template, then LO should open the template ; instead of creating a new file from the template. It seems to be a coherent behavior : the user selects the command open so LO must open. When the user selects new from template, then LO must create a new file from a template. Sounds good. If everyone agrees on that, then it should be pretty quick to fix. If you really want to prevent modification of bad file, maybe add an dialog asking confirmation : Do you really want to open the template 'test.ott' ? or create a new file from this template ? Perhaps an infobar might be better? Yes, InfoBar is the thing to use here. and related 59427 - [Template Manager] low discoverability of new template manager - we could use File → Organize templates menu I agree Still on the todo-list, sadly didn't manage to come to it. -- Cedric ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager issues pending
Hi all, Worked myself through the list with template related issues and - apart from all great progress - found a few that are still open. And with 4.1 approaching rapidly... 60589 - [Template manager]: Can not copy styles between different files and templates 61396 - FILEOPEN: [Template Manager]Possibility to edit a template that is not in the repository, is lacking and related 59427 - [Template Manager] low discoverability of new template manager - we could use File → Organize templates menu I know there were some mails on issue 61396 already. I've not seen any on the others. Though I'm not able to do a lot, I'm willing to try to contribute with thinking about design, use cases, testing and such. Any ideas, things to share at this moment? thanks, Cor -- - Cor - http://nl.libreoffice.org - www.librelex.org ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager issues pending
Well i dont have that much free time to spend on libreoffice sadly, just a few hours here and there so my progress on fixing and improving the template manager is kinda slow. About the dialog so far theres no design or talk about copying and handling styles. Any ideas for the style functionality?? Im currently working on bug 61396 (Editing a template outside of the repository), only managed to add the checkbox option to the gtk+, kde4 and native dialogs, still pending the windows one and mac, but i dont have access to a mac, so its hard to work on that one. On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 10:36 AM, Cor Nouws oo...@nouenoff.nl wrote: Hi all, Worked myself through the list with template related issues and - apart from all great progress - found a few that are still open. And with 4.1 approaching rapidly... 60589 - [Template manager]: Can not copy styles between different files and templates 61396 - FILEOPEN: [Template Manager]Possibility to edit a template that is not in the repository, is lacking and related 59427 - [Template Manager] low discoverability of new template manager - we could use File → Organize templates menu I know there were some mails on issue 61396 already. I've not seen any on the others. Though I'm not able to do a lot, I'm willing to try to contribute with thinking about design, use cases, testing and such. Any ideas, things to share at this moment? thanks, Cor -- - Cor - http://nl.libreoffice.org - www.librelex.org ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager issues pending
Hi all, Le 10/05/2013 17:06, Cor Nouws a écrit : Hi all, Worked myself through the list with template related issues and - apart from all great progress - found a few that are still open. And with 4.1 approaching rapidly... 60589 - [Template manager]: Can not copy styles between different files and templates I would say that the only one being able to work on that is Mirek : as he strongly designed the new Template Manager, he must know how to do that. *why is Mirek silent for such a long time on this subject ?* As I really don't understand how the new Template Manager was designed, I absolutely have no idea how to correct that bug in the new Template Manager. My only proposal is based on something existing : (I just saw it has already been proposed by Raphael on 09/04/2013) in the Styles Formatting window, there are buttons on top. In Writer, there is even a popup with an action Load Styles... : It opens a dialog that has nearly what you need : - the list of categories of templates, then the list of templates - it can copy some styles from the selected template to the current document. My idea is to simply extend it by integrating code from old template manager (v3.6). As those dialogs seems similar, I suppose it should not require a complete rewrite. Then, maybe add this action (Load Styles...) in Styles Formatting for Calc, Impress and Draw. If you think it might be a solution, then I can make a more precise proposal. 61396 - FILEOPEN: [Template Manager]Possibility to edit a template that is not in the repository, is lacking I saw a comment with the proposal : when a user does Open from the File menu and selects a template, then LO should open the template ; instead of creating a new file from the template. It seems to be a coherent behavior : the user selects the command open so LO must open. When the user selects new from template, then LO must create a new file from a template. If you really want to prevent modification of bad file, maybe add an dialog asking confirmation : Do you really want to open the template 'test.ott' ? or create a new file from this template ? and related 59427 - [Template Manager] low discoverability of new template manager - we could use File → Organize templates menu I agree Cheers, Michel ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager issues pending
Hi, Le 11/05/2013 00:59, Michel Renon a écrit : Hi all, Le 10/05/2013 17:06, Cor Nouws a écrit : Hi all, Worked myself through the list with template related issues and - apart from all great progress - found a few that are still open. And with 4.1 approaching rapidly... 60589 - [Template manager]: Can not copy styles between different files and templates I would say that the only one being able to work on that is Mirek : as he strongly designed the new Template Manager, he must know how to do that. *why is Mirek silent for such a long time on this subject ?* As I really don't understand how the new Template Manager was designed, I absolutely have no idea how to correct that bug in the new Template Manager. As Cedric said in https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60589#c7 this function should be part of styles manager (F11) not of templates manager. Best regards. JBF -- Seuls des formats ouverts peuvent assurer la pérennité de vos documents. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
