Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: Getting rid of 'oldref' in the help files

[Martin Srebotnjak]

Hi,
I dont remember this. Was it done for sl and sr as well? Probably I forgot
...
Lp, m.

19. dec. 2016 12.21 je oseba "Christian Lohmaier" 
napisala:

> HI Martin, *,
>
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 10:53 PM, Martin Srebotnjak 
> wrote:
> >
> > I do not mind this happening if it does not affect the l10n process.
>
> removing those context markers has been done already, and I think
> translators didn't notice, so I assume it won't affect the  process at
> all..
>
> ciao
> Chrisian
>
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: Getting rid of 'oldref' in the help files

[Christian Lohmaier]

HI Martin, *,

On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 10:53 PM, Martin Srebotnjak  wrote:
>
> I do not mind this happening if it does not affect the l10n process.

removing those context markers has been done already, and I think
translators didn't notice, so I assume it won't affect the  process at
all..

ciao
Chrisian
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Re: Getting rid of 'oldref' in the help files

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi *,

On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 5:51 PM, khagaroth  wrote:
>> it seems the goal is to move away from .xhp to .xhtml
>>
> I hope you meant HTML 5, because XHTML is a dead end (and good riddance).

What will be in the installation set of course is independent of what
is used as the source-format.

And as kendy already noted, the source format has additional
requirements. (like being translated in a sensible way, i.e. po files
like it is now)

xml can be validated, and converted rather easily. (and of course it
is working already, no need to reinvent the wheel at this point)

ciao
Christian
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Re: Getting rid of 'oldref' in the help files

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Jan, *,

On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 5:38 PM, Jan Holesovsky  wrote:
> Jan Iversen píše v Pá 16. 12. 2016 v 16:27 +0100:
>
>> > this change is supposed to be transparent for L10n and
>> > Documentation teams, but they should know :-)
>>
>> It does not seem transparent for the few languages that do not use pootle 
>> (sl and sr) please do not forget those.
>
> Thanks for the reminder.  I hope Cloph can do the upgrade for them some
> way that fits them too, though?

I'll provide the script with which I'll do the auto-translation, so
depends on whether they are using same mechanism to update against the
new templates or not whether it will work without modifications (i.e.
either they have obsolete strings in the newly generated po files, or
they have to keep old po files to read the old translation from).

ciao
Christian
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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Getting rid of 'oldref' in the help files

[Jan Holesovsky]

Hi Olivier,

Olivier Hallot píše v So 17. 12. 2016 v 14:54 -0200:

> One thing I'd like to add for evaluation of using XML for the help
> contents in browsers is that,  in my experience:
> 
> *  XSLT (XML style sheets), XPath and XQuery  are another technologies
> to master.
> 
> * An error in a XSLT statement and one get  a blank page or a message
> with very little indications (Firefox)
> 
> * XSLT seems to be an aging technology. Is the industry betting in this
> technology for the future?
> 
> * Rendering XML+XSLT is browser-dependent and is not publicly/widely
> tested by W3C. We may be forced to test the results into a wide set of
> browsers.

Nothing stops us from rewriting the XLST transformation to plain
JavaScript, and handle the XHP files directly via JS if XSLT is blocking
us.  [And this is a reasonably self-contained, and easily testable task:
The XHP -> HTML conversion has to give the same results before and after
the rewrite for all the files.  We've got rid of XSLT in writerfilter
the same way few years ago.]

And maybe we'll eventually end up with using the plain HTML5 directly -
I definitely don't want to block evolution (even though at the moment I
see more drawbacks than gains).

But that's my main point - I want an evolution, not a revolution.  Every
time I hear about "helpcontent*3*" or "let's move to html5", I get
extremely scared, because such claims seem to suggest that we have to
throw away what we have & rewrite everything first, and miss what we
want to achieve in the first place; which from what I know is:

1) add multimedia content

2) make the editing easier

But neither 1) nor 2) have html5 (or a complete rewrite) as a
pre-requisite, for both these goals there is an incremental upgrade path
possible: Improving XHP step by step.

All the best,
Kendy

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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Getting rid of 'oldref' in the help files

[Olivier Hallot]

Hi Jan


Em 16/12/2016 15:41, Jan Holesovsky escreveu:
> Hi,
>
> khagaroth píše v Pá 16. 12. 2016 v 17:51 +0100:
>
>>> I hope you meant HTML 5, because XHTML is a dead end (and good riddance).
>> html does not have markup for some of the semantics that we have (and need)
>>> in the help files (like  or  to name few)
>>>
>> Both  and  are part of HTML 5 and there is a good chance
>> the other things are as well.
> They are, but they mean a completely different thing than what they mean
> in XHP ;-)
>
>  in XHP is more like  data="foo.inc">.
>
> Similarly  is more like a  with some associated css.
>
> Again - I'm talking semantics;  is a general thing, and has no
> semantics by itself, similarly .  We'd lose this by converting to a
> plain HTML.
>
> All the best,
> Kendy
>
>
One thing I'd like to add for evaluation of using XML for the help
contents in browsers is that,  in my experience:

*  XSLT (XML style sheets), XPath and XQuery  are another technologies
to master.

* An error in a XSLT statement and one get  a blank page or a message
with very little indications (Firefox)

* XSLT seems to be an aging technology. Is the industry betting in this
technology for the future?

* Rendering XML+XSLT is browser-dependent and is not publicly/widely
tested by W3C. We may be forced to test the results into a wide set of
browsers.

Regards

-- 
Olivier Hallot
LIbreOffice Documentation Coordinator
Comunidade LibreOffice 
Rio de Janeiro - Brasil - Local Time: UTC-02:00
http://tdf.io/joinus 

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: Getting rid of 'oldref' in the help files

[Martin Srebotnjak]

Hi, Jan,

2016-12-16 17:38 GMT+01:00 Jan Holesovsky :

> > It does not seem transparent for the few languages that do not use
> pootle (sl and sr) please do not forget those.
>
> Thanks for the reminder.  I hope Cloph can do the upgrade for them some
> way that fits them too, though?


I do not mind this happening if it does not affect the l10n process.

With that in mind the date/point at which it will be run must be set.

Probably this will happen after 5.3.x branch? It would make sense to do it
after the 5.3.0 release, when most l10n teams finish with their work and
have finished translating help, and still not started translating the 5.x
master. Or maybe after 5.3.1 release?

The sl and sr team would probably send their po files zipped (or they would
be taken from the git) and the script should be run through them and they
would be entered in the git and returned to respective l10n teams.

This conversion process (including the majority of l10n from Pootle) should
happen in a short span (like two working days, maybe more if required by
the scripts to go through all the languages and to check all converted
files for consistency by some other scripts).

Probably one (or a few) languages should be taken first to test this
procedure/the scripts and to have better estimates of time and resources
needed.

Lp, m.
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: Getting rid of 'oldref' in the help files

[Khaled Hosny]

On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 05:51:41PM +0100, khagaroth wrote:
> > there are many ways how to describe the same thing in html ('s and 's
> > vs.  and  vs. 's with css vs. who-knows-what)
> 
> CSS is the preferred way, its the same as with styles and direct formatting
> in Writer.

CSS is preferred for styling not semantics. But all of this is moot if
we don’t have an HTML5 help viewer anyway.

Regards,
Khaled
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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Getting rid of 'oldref' in the help files

[Jan Holesovsky]

Hi,

khagaroth píše v Pá 16. 12. 2016 v 17:51 +0100:

> > I hope you meant HTML 5, because XHTML is a dead end (and good riddance).
> 
> html does not have markup for some of the semantics that we have (and need)
> > in the help files (like  or  to name few)
> >
> 
> Both  and  are part of HTML 5 and there is a good chance
> the other things are as well.

They are, but they mean a completely different thing than what they mean
in XHP ;-)

 in XHP is more like .

Similarly  is more like a  with some associated css.

Again - I'm talking semantics;  is a general thing, and has no
semantics by itself, similarly .  We'd lose this by converting to a
plain HTML.

All the best,
Kendy

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Re: Getting rid of 'oldref' in the help files

[Olivier Hallot]

HI Michael

You nailed it.


Em 16/12/2016 15:05, Michael Stahl escreveu:
> but maybe getting rid of the Writer based online help is already part of
> the goal, i don't know.
Eric Raymonds, The Cathedral and the Bazaar:

/13. "Perfection (in design) is achieved not when there is nothing more
to add, but rather when there is nothing more to take away."/

Regards

-- 
Olivier Hallot
LIbreOffice Documentation Coordinator
Comunidade LibreOffice 
Rio de Janeiro - Brasil - Local Time: UTC-02:00
http://tdf.io/joinus 

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Re: Getting rid of 'oldref' in the help files

[Michael Stahl]

On 12/16/2016 05:38 PM, Jan Holesovsky wrote:
> * there are many ways how to describe the same thing in html ('s and
>   's vs.  and  vs. 's with css vs. who-knows-what)
>   which would make the help harder to maintain, if we eg. want to reuse
>   the information from there to generate other representations (like
>   eg. books or so)

oh and of course HTML help content effectively requires first ditching
the current built-in Writer-based help browser, since Writer can only
handle ~HTML3 or so and if people can just write HTML5 directly they
surely don't want to be restricted to a subset with no tool to verify
they didn't get it wrong, so the pages have to be displayed by a proper
web browser.

but maybe getting rid of the Writer based online help is already part of
the goal, i don't know.


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Re: Getting rid of 'oldref' in the help files

[khagaroth]

>
> it seems the goal is to move away from .xhp to .xhtml
>
> I hope you meant HTML 5, because XHTML is a dead end (and good riddance).

html does not have markup for some of the semantics that we have (and need)
> in the help files (like  or  to name few)
>

Both  and  are part of HTML 5 and there is a good chance
the other things are as well.

there are many ways how to describe the same thing in html ('s and 's
> vs.  and  vs. 's with css vs. who-knows-what)


CSS is the preferred way, its the same as with styles and direct formatting
in Writer.
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Re: Getting rid of 'oldref' in the help files

[Jan Holesovsky]

Hi Jan,

Jan Iversen píše v Pá 16. 12. 2016 v 16:27 +0100:

> > this change is supposed to be transparent for L10n and
> > Documentation teams, but they should know :-)
> 
> It does not seem transparent for the few languages that do not use pootle (sl 
> and sr) please do not forget those.

Thanks for the reminder.  I hope Cloph can do the upgrade for them some
way that fits them too, though?

> It does also influence the help repo (of course), since the change will be a 
> very big commit.
> 
> > [Or - any objections to this change?]
> 
> No objections as I think it is a good and welcome change, just a question.
> 
> As we discussed in ESC (and Oliver sort of pushed) it seems the goal
> is to move away from .xhp to .xhtml (if I understood it correct). If
> decided do we then want to do that as a set of small steps or make 1
> script that does it ?

I tried to explain on the documentation@ why a big-bang move to html is
not a good idea from many reasons in another thread; to name the most
important ones:

* big-bang "let's abandon one technology and hooray for another one"
  always brings lots of regressions that are hard to fix in a timely
  manner; incremental changes are easier to maintain

* html does not have markup for some of the semantics that we have (and
  need) in the help files (like  or  to name few)

* there are many ways how to describe the same thing in html ('s and
  's vs.  and  vs. 's with css vs. who-knows-what)
  which would make the help harder to maintain, if we eg. want to reuse
  the information from there to generate other representations (like
  eg. books or so)

> Please just see this as a question of how often to we want to run these 
> conversions.

One more may be needed if we agree that the id="..." attribute could be
done non-mandatory, because that one affects the msgctx too.

If we want to make the XHP markup look more like HTML markup (which I
don't object in general & this is up to agreement between between the
Documentation and L10n people), there might be additional conversions
needed, for things like  ->  etc. - but I'd like to keep
this separate from the cleanup effort / topic.

All the best,
Kendy

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Re: Getting rid of 'oldref' in the help files

[Jan Iversen]

> this change is supposed to be transparent for L10n and
> Documentation teams, but they should know :-)

It does not seem transparent for the few languages that do not use pootle (sl 
and sr) please do not forget those.

It does also influence the help repo (of course), since the change will be a 
very big commit.

> [Or - any objections to this change?]

No objections as I think it is a good and welcome change, just a question.

As we discussed in ESC (and Oliver sort of pushed) it seems the goal is to move 
away from .xhp to .xhtml (if I understood it correct). If decided do we then 
want to do that as a set of small steps or make 1 script that does it ?

Please just see this as a question of how often to we want to run these 
conversions.

have a nice weekend
rgds
jan I.

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