he licence paragraphs from all modules in 1.2.12.
If anyone needs to see them, ask and I'll e-mail them directly to
you.
--
Cheers, The cynics among us might say: "We laugh,
Rick Moen monkeyboys -- Linux IS the mainstream UNIX now!
rick (at) linuxmafia.com MuaHaHaHa!" but that would be rude. -- Jim Dennis
firm this in writing, to Richard. I suspect he'll be delighted
to do so, as he has considerable respect for the GNU Project.
In the meanwhile, perhaps this e-mail will help.
--
Cheers, "Heedless of grammar, they all cried 'It's him!'"
Rick Moen
et the better of
you, Tom: The gentleman you addressed _nowhere_ expressed disrespect.
--
Cheers, "Heedless of grammar, they all cried 'It's him!'"
Rick Moen -- R.H. Barham, _Misadventure at Margate_
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Stallman to be less than very clear on the distinction
between GPLed software and GNU software. The GNU packages are listed at
http://www.fsf.org/software/software.html
--
Cheers, "Heedless of grammar, they all cried 'It's him!'"
Rick Moen
nge seemed (again,
> to me) to be treating it as GPL == GNU. I was merely pointing
> this out.
My apologies. That would indeed be a problem, if so.
--
Cheers, "Heedless of grammar, they all cried 'It's him!'"
Rick Moen
mpulsory packages installed) to see what proportion of code
> is in fact GNU software.
Runs the risk of accidentally assuming that each line of code is equally
significant.
--
Cheers, "Heedless of grammar, they all cried 'It's him!'"
Rick Moen
s been my
understanding that free software licences purport to be a transfer of
copyright, not a contract.
You're the guy whose name has those initials trailing after it; what are
we missing, here? ;->
--
Cheers, "By reading this sentence, you agree to be bound by th
ourt from imputing liability despite that --
but one cannot absolutely prevent courts from doing perverse things,
only discourage it.
--
Cheers, "Open your present"
Rick Moen"No, you open your present"
rick (at) lin
payment make assignment of liability to
the copyright-holder inequitable.
--
Cheers, "Open your present"
Rick Moen"No, you open your present"
rick (at) linuxmafia.com Kaczinski Christmas.
ing to
be argumentative. Regardless of which applies, I don't think further
comment is warranted.
--
Cheers, "Open your present"
Rick Moen"No, you open your present"
rick (at) linuxmafia.com
ice, so please let's _not_ have another round.
--
Cheers, "Open your present"
Rick Moen"No, you open your present"
rick (at) linuxmafia.com Kaczinski Christmas.
-- Unabomber Haiku Contest, CyberLaw mailing list
sense.
--
Cheers, "Open your present"
Rick Moen"No, you open your present"
rick (at) linuxmafia.com Kaczinski Christmas.
-- Unabomber Haiku Contest, CyberLaw mailing list
begin Derek J. Balling quotation:
> Hope... trust... same thing
> Judges... courts... same thing
Read what I said more attentively, or don't. But in either case, don't
waste more of my time.
--
Cheers, "Open your p
in case the default texture mapping makes it
> look more robust than it is (ok, I'm reaching here, but you get the
> point :) and it breaks...
I'm glad at least _one_ person understood the main point I posted
earlier. ;->
--
Cheers,
air.
--
Cheers, "Open your present"
Rick Moen"No, you open your present"
rick (at) linuxmafia.com Kaczinski Christmas.
-- Unabomber Haiku Contest, CyberLaw mailing list
(Note that I am _not_ saying everyone here commits that sin. But many
have.)
Reply-to has been set, since meta-discussions can be pernicious.
--
Cheers, "Open your present"
Rick Moen"No, you ope
Cheers, "Open your present...."
Rick Moen"No, you open your present"
rick (at) linuxmafia.com Kaczinski Christmas.
-- Unabomber Haiku Contest, CyberLaw mailing list
entical to the OSD -- which I'll
mention in some forlorn hope of wrestling us back on-topic.
--
Cheers, Bad Unabomber!
Rick Moen Blowing people all to hell.
rick (at) linuxmafia.com Do you take requests?
Is Free
Software?" essay differs from that of the OSD. More to the point, it is
not the topic of this mailing list. Application of the OSD is.
In light of which, the point of your digression is unclear.
--
Cheers, Bad Unabomber!
Rick Moen
begin John Cowan quotation:
> On Tue, 22 Aug 2000, Rick Moen wrote:
>
>> As Brian Behlendorf pointed out, this list is concerned with
>> OSD-compliance, not with anyone's definition of free software.
>
> All things being equal, I think the community prefers
oid needing to deal with your firm's lawyers.
--
Cheers, "Teach a man to make fire, and he will be warm
Rick Moen for a day. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm
[EMAIL PROTECTED] for the rest of his life." -- John A. Hrastar
and violence. "Bootlegging" comes
readily to mind.
--
Cheers, "Teach a man to make fire, and he will be warm
Rick Moen for a day. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm
[EMAIL PROTECTED] for the rest of his life." -- John A. Hrastar
ext.
--
Cheers, "Teach a man to make fire, and he will be warm
Rick Moen for a day. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm
[EMAIL PROTECTED] for the rest of his life." -- John A. Hrastar
Angelo Schneider wrote:
> Making "non authorized copies" is slavery!
Wow! 85 lines of question-begging. I believe that's a new record.
Don, what prize do we have for today's contestant?
--
Cheers, "Teach a man to make fire, an
to grant such rights, don't use a licence
that confers them.
--
Cheers, "Teach a man to make fire, and he will be warm
Rick Moen for a day. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm
[EMAIL PROTECTED] for the rest of his life." -- John A. Hrastar
is not a relevant objection: I was speaking of the combined work's
licence.
--
Cheers, "Teach a man to make fire, and he will be warm
Rick Moen for a day. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm
[EMAIL PROTECTED] for the rest of his life." -- John A. Hrastar
efore replying.)
> There are quite a few examples of businesses making money from free
> software (e.g. Cygnus Solutions, Signum, Prosa)
I believe you misspelled "Red Hat, Signum, Linuxcare". ;->
--
Cheers, "Teach a man to make fire, and he will be
at you therefore want to remain
unchanged, and ones whose further modification you want to encourage.
For the former, I use:
Copyright (C) 2000 by Rick Moen, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Verbatim
copying, distribution, and display of this entire article are
permitted in any medium, provided this not
, and rather unclear.
I quite agree. I've not yet found a licence I consider reasonable for
those purposes.
--
Cheers, "Teach a man to make fire, and he will be warm
Rick Moen for a day. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm
[EMAIL PROTECT
bored freshman trying to troll a mailing list.
But, no licence means unlicenced: If anyone truly wishes some clear
and unambiguous permission to use that code, it will, as you say, be
necessary to contact the copyright holder(s).
--
Cheers, "Teach a man to make fire,
ption. If so, that might mean
this is documented only in a long-ago thread on the Linux kernel mailing
list. Anyone have a reference?
--
Cheers, "Teach a man to make fire, and he will be warm
Rick Moen for a day. Set a man on fire, and he will be
legally distributable, depending on how those licence terms interact.
--
Cheers, "Reality is not optional."
Rick Moen -- Thomas Sowell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
lt time parsing the above sentence. Perhaps after
coffee, I'll have an easier time.
--
Cheers, "Reality is not optional."
Rick Moen -- Thomas Sowell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
begin John Cowan quotation:
> Rick Moen wrote:
>
> > > Well, that's not the whole truth either. I could take a bunch of
> > > BSD modules, create a derivative work, and license the result under
> > > the GPL. Or under a proprietary license, for that ma
I wrote:
> In 3b, Bob takes from X your new version of Alice's BSD codebase, and
^
> maybe sends you a thank-you note.
Should be "3c".
ues.
That would be a rather W.S. Gilbert sort of intellectual property,
methinks. Not that it doesn't happen; just that it's rather silly.
--
Cheers, "Reality is not optional."
Rick Moen -- Thomas Sowell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
he latter phrase strikes me as much clearer.
Anyhow, I'll conditionally accept your explanation of derived works with
a new licence terms, and (impliedly) why this need not constitute
relicencing -- for which I thank you.
[1] Thus, I may not have legally acquired the Krzysztow MakeDocJ tarball
carried on my site, since he may have illegally redistributed Beirne's
code -- technically speaking. Thus my caution and inclination to
insist, a la Debian Project, that licence terms be provided with the
affected code.
--
Cheers, "Reality is not optional."
Rick Moen -- Thomas Sowell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
out to be,
like many authors of older software, difficult to find.
> Right, because patches are not derivative works -- their use of the
> original is fair use only. They are essentially commentary.
Thank you. That is a useful characterisation. And thank you again for
your trouble in
the need (however reduced by the antiquity and
insignificance of the project) to _attempt_ this, with no guarantee of
success, underlines why licence information really needs to accompany
the affected code in the first place.
--
Cheers, "Reality is not optional."
Rick Moen -- Thomas Sowell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
rce
community a great deal of work contradicting your firm's assertions to
the contrary at every turn, and save your firm a public-relations
problem.
--
Cheers, "Because film is the pre-eminent American art form. You don't hear
Rick Moen people saying 'You know, this mo
d is working in that area for around 4 years now (we only have Linux
> products), that is why we try to start this discussion here. But the
> immediate response was more than hostile.
Ignore any hostility. Deal with the OSD.
--
Cheers, "Because film is the pre-eminent American art
oduct strategy, one can build a business case for either approach.
But you cannot lobby and bluster your way past OSD compliance. You can
save a great deal of your time and ours by giving up that effort.
--
Cheers, "Because film is the pre-eminent American art form. You don't hear
Rick M
l have a serious public-relations problem.
For it is _very_ obvious that, in fact, you do not intend to produce
open-source software, and never did. Good luck to you.
--
Cheers, "It ain't so much the things we don't know that get us
Rick Moenin trouble
mistake they
might yet make.
--
Cheers, "Reality is not optional."
Rick Moen -- Thomas Sowell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
iously, your company talking about "threats" is just yet another
tiresome digression. Either finally deal with the OSD, or pester some
other list, please. By and large, we're busy people.
--
Cheers, "Reality i
DVI
is an ideal, stable, robust format for publishing (modulo some reported
weakness in handling graphics), but reportedly has poor desktop-OS
software support.
These issues may become clearer if/when I try to prototype a site.
--
Cheers, "Reality is not
comments on a quick search
of the online FAQs and other documentation. (I haven't examined the
copyright notices on LaTeX's source packages.)
--
Cheers, "Reality is not optional."
Rick Moen -- Thomas Sowell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
e clarification. LaTeX is made to work atop "any standard
TeX system (or whatever replaces it)".
--
Cheers, "Reality is not optional."
Rick Moen -- Thomas Sowell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
your wording into a COPYING.Addendum file,
and then distribute like mad.
--
Cheers, Before enlightenment, caffeine.
Rick Moen After enlightenment, caffeine.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
begin Jordan Logos Greenhall quotation:
> So, would a world powered by Linux be worse-off than a world powered by
> Windows?
http://www.perlguy.net/images/opensource1.gif
--
Cheers,Before enlightenment, caffeine.
Rick Moen
opy and change
it."
--
Cheers,Before enlightenment, caffeine.
Rick Moen After enlightenment, caffeine.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
ealing to the "silent majority": It
worked for Nixon.
--
Cheers, Right to keep and bear
Rick Moen Haiku shall not be abridged
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Or denied. So there.
uot;freeware", e.g. http://www.bebits.com/app/937.
Nobody's thus far written an open-source implementation of the algorithm.
Not relevant to the preceding discussion, but I thought it was an
interesting case study.
--
Cheers, My pid is Inigo Montoya. You kill -9
the
OSD's wording at least arguably fails to indicate its intent. Which
suggests room for improvement.
--
Cheers, Evolution: Life's a niche, and then you die.
Rick Moen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
never will be. Third-party rights are
involved.
More about the project's licensing, here:
http://www.openoffice.org/FAQs/main_faq_new.html
The 6.0 codebase is, at this date, pretty alpha-ish. But it's usable if
you're... very adventuresome.
--
Cheers, You can'
.
--
Cheers,"Orthodoxy is my doxy. Heterodoxy is someone else's doxy."
Rick Moen -- William Warburton, Bishop of Gloucester (1698-1779)
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
other hypotheticals where you said "You may not create"
(Pardon the small niggle, please. Your general point was, as usual, well
taken.)
--
Cheers,"Orthodoxy is my doxy. Heterodoxy is someone else's doxy."
Rick Moen -- William Warbu
lem (and the mechanics of dealing with copyright assignment) are
addressed, in some detail, in FSF's "Information for Maintainers of GNU
Software", http://www.fsf.org/prep/maintain_toc.html . 'Hope that helps!
--
Cheers, "I used to be on the border of insanity.
not before. (Sorry I can't be
more specific, but I'm rushed, again.)
--
Cheers,"Please return all dogmas to their orthodox positions."
Rick Moen -- Brad Johnson, in r.a.sf.w.r-j
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
y operation of law,
whether FSF claims it exists or not.)
--
Cheers, kill -9 them all.
Rick Moen Let init sort it out.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
e, Inc. for its GPLed codebase.
I'm sure I'll find one or two that seem sound, if I look around.
--
Cheers, "There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a
Rick Moen little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider
[EMAIL PROTECTED] pric
begin Matthew C. Weigel quotation:
> I hate to be the constant crank, but...
Aha! A true spiritual heir of Baron Munchausen has been found, at last.
Tell us another one, Matthew.
--
Cheers, "Transported to a surreal landscape, a young girl kills the first
Rick Moen woman s
as I'm concerned, good.
> My two penn'orth.
Refund duly tendered.
(My personal views; yours for a modest clickwrap licence fee and waiver
of reverse-engineering rights.)
--
Cheers, The Viking's Reminder:
Rick Moen Pillage first, _then_ burn.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
each, off-list. I'm not sure
it's on-topic for this forum (or of interest to it).
--
Cheers, "I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate
Rick Moen those who do. And, for the people who like country music,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] denigrate means 'put down'." -- Bob Newhart
t: Consideration is a required
element of _contracts_, but has no obvious relevance to grants of
non-default rights under copyright law.
IANAL, either. This is not legal advice.
--
Cheers, The Viking's Reminder:
Rick Moen
ty issues involving n-factorial licences?
Surely the benefit of discouraging their proliferation is
self-evident.
--
Cheers, The Viking's Reminder:
Rick Moen Pillage first, _then_ burn.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
license-discuss
x27;s
author has never made such claims?
The more sadly cynical among your readers might be led to suspect
flamebaiting.
--
Cheers,
Rick MoenPotestatem capite!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
license-discuss archive is at http://crynwr.com/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?3
relevant straw-man argument. No points.
--
Cheers, "There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a
Rick Moen little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider
[EMAIL PROTECTED] price only are this man's lawful prey." - J. Ruskin (attr.)
--
license
;s position and then
knocking it down.
It would be a somewhat arch understatement to say that most of us have
seen that before. But welcome to the Internet.
--
Cheers,
Rick Moen Never ask a sysadmin "What's up?"
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
license-discuss archive i
nk most people got his point without
exegesis.
--
Cheers, "By reading this sentence, you agree to be bound by the
Rick Moen terms of the Internet Protocol, version 4, or, at your
[EMAIL PROTECTED] option, any later version." -- Seth David Schoen
--
license-discuss archive is at http://crynwr.com/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?3
lue.
> And for what it is worth, Russ himself agreed with my position
> in a private email.
I agree with Russ's statement, you disagree with it, and -- to complete
a misshapen circle -- you claim he agrees with you. What's the
expression? Do the math.
--
Cheers,
Rick Moen
;agree" also occur elsewhere in sundry places.
But my point is that answering "Is it a valid contract?" is not
disposative of the more-central question "Is it enforceable?")
--
Cheers, Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based,
Rick Moen not
features you see as improvements, in any
of the submitted-but-not-yet-approved licences. Frankly, I've not
noticed anything innovative and useful.
--
Cheers, "Why is the alphabet in that order? Is it because of that song?"
Rick Moen -- Steven W
a trait.
--
Cheers, "That article and its poster have been cancelled."
Rick Moen -- David B. O'Donnel, sysadmin for America Online
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
license-discuss archive is at http://crynwr.com/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?3
lier assertion of evolutionary
advantages to new licences, and am still looking forward to your
adducing examples of them. Too bad that requires _work_ on your part,
when gratuitously complaining about other people is undoubtedly a great
deal easier.
--
Cheers, Evolution: Lif
ly so -- and accompanied by protracted attempts to wear down the
OSI with rhetoric, when that was failing. The European lawyer
(representing some CD-ROM-oriented firm?) was particularly cheeky about
that, you may recall.
-
Cheers, "Learning Java has been a slow and tortuous process fo
begin Russell Nelson quotation:
> There's nothing in the OSD which talks about privacy
You are of course quite correct in this; I had forgotten. And it is
disposative of the issue, unless the OSD were changed.
--
license-discuss archive is at http://crynwr.com/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?3
vered code
that is entirely internal to the non-public affairs of the individual or
organisation using it.
I'm sure that can be better stated, but should illustrate the concept.
I'd be glad to try for a better rendition, if the Board has any interest.
--
Cheers, "A D
begin Rob Myers quotation:
> It does however clash with many existing licenses that assume
> acceptance of the license by usage of the code and give a general
> offer of distribution on this basis.
I'm sorry, but I don't grasp what you mean. Perhaps you could give an
example.
> It also require
se you are also having a difficult time understanding domain
names, I represent linuxmafia.com: We make you an offer you can afford.
-
Cheers, "Learning Java has been a slow and tortuous process for me. Every
Rick Moen few minutes, I start screaming 'No, you fools!" and have to go
begin Rob Myers quotation:
> I de-jump and apologize for sowing confusion: I share that skepticism but am
> clearly not best placed to express it.
Not a problem. You were certainly being a great deal more coherent than
I generally am before 10 AM.
--
"Is it not the beauty of an asynchronou
begin Greg London quotation:
> The difference is APSL does not give you the option
> of limiting source code to people to whom you give
> your distributions. OSD allows source code to be
> contained within a "circle of friends".
That is exactly it. Thank you for clarifying the matter. I was ve
begin Greg London quotation:
> It seems to me that the MIT does not meet
> item #2 of the OSD, then.
You're confusing source code of the original work with source code of
derivative works. Under MIT / BSD / similar, you're not guaranteed
access to the latter.
I suppose it would be physically
begin Steve Lhomme quotation:
> Once again, as I wrote :
> "Is the OSI there to judge what a license is worth ?
Ah, I love polemical rhetorical questions! Thanks for the contribution
to my collection.
In the meantime, since you say your concerns are entirely theoretical,
and that you lack time
begin Greg London quotation:
> I am saying the MIT license does not meet OSD #2. Since OSD #2 says
> "the program MUST include source code" There is nothing in the MIT
> license to guarantee OSD#2, so it fails to meet the definition.
Ahem. Nostalgic for freshman philosophy?
It would be physic
begin Matthew C. Weigel quotation:
> I also think that the OSD contributes to this misunderstanding - I
> think the wording of the introduction should be rewritten to not
> suggest the distribution terms have to meet the OSD, but the
> distribution terms or the distribution itself.
Actually, I t
begin Greg London quotation:
> Ah, several items just fell into place.
Yes, but they didn't fit.
Look, nobody's going to force-feed common sense to people who
don't want to read the OSD in the spirit intended. One has to
find one's own.
The DFSG (and thus the OSD) were indeed abstracted out fr
begin Russell Nelson quotation:
> I am skeptical that you can find any existing requirement for
> protection of privacy in the OSD.
I was stipulating none such being present.
--
license-discuss archive is at http://crynwr.com/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?3
led 'irk gleknow mizk'(n).--More--
Rick MoenThis is an IBM Manual scroll.--More__
[EMAIL PROTECTED] You are permanently confused." -- ADOM (a roguelike game)
--
license-discuss archive is at http://crynwr.com/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?3
begin Greg London quotation:
> If someone puts out a bunch of source code under the MIT license, and
> the distro is OSI certifiable, there is nothing to prevent someone
> else from redistributing it in binary form only. Their only "penalty"
> is that they lose OSI certification.
_Licences_ are
begin Greg London quotation:
>> _Licences_ are OSD-certified. Software is open-source or not, in
>> accordance with its nature (including but not limited to licensing).
>
> http://www.opensource.org/docs/certification_mark.html
> "The OSI Certified mark applies to software, not to licenses. "
begin Karsten M. Self quotation:
> - Apple's Darwin project is under the APSL, which remains quite
> controversial.
Well, it is and it isn't. I examined this in at least a little bit of
detail when Evan Liebovitch was castigating Apple for allegedly leeching
(I paraphrase) off the BSDs.
begin Steve Lhomme quotation:
> Here is my practical case for your pragmatic minds : I'm working (not
> alone) on a derivation of the QPL license in order to make it GPL
> compatible (and also a few minor changes).
Splendid. We will await with interest the cessation of rhetoric and
submission
begin Russell Nelson quotation:
> RMS is up-front about his objection to the APSL. It is not for any
> restrictions on the distribution of the software, but instead for the
> requirement to publish the source code to deployed modifications.
I hadn't previously looked up Stallman's views on A
them as part of OSI's approval process. You're clearly interested in
some radically different discussion, and should seek that elsewhere.
--
Cheers, "Transported to a surreal landscape, a young girl kills the first
Rick Moen woman she meets, and then teams up with
intended.
Now, a local newsserver using leafnode 2.0beta would be very useful.
Perhaps some here will recall Nick Petreley's late lamented
forum.linuxworld.com machine (which ran using INN, which is overkill).
--
Cheers, "A Discordian is a Taoist with a very strange sense of
d.
--
Cheers, "All my life, I wanted to _be_ someone. I guess I should have
Rick Moenbeen more specific."-- Jane Wagner
--
license-discuss archive is at http://crynwr.com/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?3
encer, those who do not understand netnews are
condemned to reinvent it, badly.
PS to Thorsten: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/#pine
--
Cheers, A host is a host, from coast to coast.
Rick Moen And nobody talks to a host that's close,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unless the
begin Kenny Tilton quotation:
> Anyway, i would find it strange to give the FSF the option effectively
> to change the licensing of my stuff at any point in the future by
> producing a new version of the GPL.
People specify "or any later version" iff they trust FSF to act to
perpetuate (in later
begin Justin Wells quotation:
[FSF:]
> Its adversarity, say Microsoft Corp., has different ideas about how
> the GPL v3 should be worded... for example, allowing Microsoft (and
> only Microsoft) to incorporate all GPL'd software into Windows.
(Lawfully and with public acknowledgement, you mean.
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