RE: How do you tell tempo for indications in English
Hello, -Original Message- From: lilypond-user-bounces+james.lowe=datacore@gnu.org [mailto:lilypond-user-bounces+james.lowe=datacore@gnu.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Horgan Sent: 02 February 2011 21:53 To: 'Mailinglist lilypond-user' Subject: Re: How do you tell tempo for indications in English So what you're saying is that you really don't know. No, what I am saying is there is no definite answer. You can look in a dozen different places and you will get a different tempo (even for established tempos like 'Andante'), sure you will get a range of tempo but that is someone else's guess. The ideal tempo is the one that you (or your ensemble) are most comfortable playing at and the one which suits the time and the place. Go and listen to some of the music you are intending on setting and tap the rhythm and see how many 'beats per minute' you get and there's your tempo. Seriously, you want someone to give you a tempo for 'cheerfully' or 'with feeling'? These are not tempos but are 'ways' of playing. Music isn't an exact science it's always about feeling. Play the speed that 'sounds' good to you. That is the correct tempo. James ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
RE: How do you tell tempo for indications in English
Hello, -Original Message- From: lilypond-user-bounces+james.lowe=datacore@gnu.org [mailto:lilypond-user-bounces+james.lowe=datacore@gnu.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Horgan Sent: 02 February 2011 04:05 To: Mailinglist lilypond-user Subject: How do you tell tempo for indications in English I'm setting some of O'Neill's Irish tunes, and the tempo indications are (a selection): Animated, Boldly, Cheerful, Cheerfully, Gaily, Gracefully, Moderate, Plaintive, Plaintively, Playful, Playfully, Rather slow, Slow, Slow and distinctly, Slow and mournful, Slow and tenderly, Slow and with feeling, Slow with expression, Slow and feeling, Spirited, Tenderly, Very slow, With animation, With expression, With feeling, With spirit What do you do with that? I can find tables of usual tempo ranges for italian tempo indications, but I have no idea what to do with these. I'd like them to be authentic, in that the midi file would be about as fast as the tune would usually be played in an Irish pub. Does anyone have any ideas? --- I don’t think there is such a thing a 'authentic' tempo range if you are referring to setting crotchet/quaver/minim tempo speeds. What you are asking, it seems is, 'what speed is 'cheerful''? Which doesn't makes much sense. I expect it was simply played 'cheerfully' and that would depend on who was doing the playing. Also can you be sure that the same tune played in one 'Irish pub' is any different from a 'non-Irish pub' or that other 'Irish pub' down the road? The music is probably played as fast or slow as the musicians play it and that can depend on how many times they have played together, the smell of the crowd or simply the number of pints of the 'black stuff' they have put away before/during the gig. ;) 110201-63 Sorry if that sounds a bit flippant, but I am not sure what kind of answer you are going to get other than someone else's guestimation of which you could do yourself. Tempo in terms of words (rather than beat numbers) is more about feeling than speed. James ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: How do you tell tempo for indications in English
On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 11:05 PM, Patrick Horgan phorg...@yahoo.com wrote: I'm setting some of O'Neill's Irish tunes, and the tempo indications are (a selection): Animated, Boldly, Cheerful, Cheerfully, Gaily, Gracefully, Moderate, Plaintive, Plaintively, Playful, Playfully, Rather slow, Slow, Slow and distinctly, Slow and mournful, Slow and tenderly, Slow and with feeling, Slow with expression, Slow and feeling, Spirited, Tenderly, Very slow, With animation, With expression, With feeling, With spirit What do you do with that? I can find tables of usual tempo ranges for italian tempo indications, but I have no idea what to do with these. I'd like them to be authentic, in that the midi file would be about as fast as the tune would usually be played in an Irish pub. Does anyone have any ideas? Patrick Greetings, Patrick - The tempo indications are just what they say. There's a lot of variation in tempo for the same tune at various sessions.This may not be a lot of help, but I would suggest three possibilities: 1) play the midi at a default or provisional tempo, decide whether it sounds right to you, then modify the tempo accordingly; 2) get a metronome with a beat input button, play or hum the tune the way you think it should go, then tap the metronome button at that pace to find the tempo; or 3) find a recording or an Irish session musician who will play the tune for you, and determine that tempo. No hard and fast rules, I'm afraid. I'd like to see the results when you're done. Incidentally, if you didn't know, all the O'Neill's tunes have been transcribed using ABC format and are freely available. Some of them may give tempos; I don't know. If you want to check them out, go to http://trillian.mit.edu/~jc/cgi/abc/tunefind enter the tune name, and you can check out the ABC source file, a .jpg, a .png, and other formats. There will be *multiple* hits for each tune. If you want the O'Neill's, it will be identified by a number (I can't remember what the number is) all the way to the left of the entry. Good luck, Ralph -- Ralph Palmer Montague City, MA USA palmer.r.vio...@gmail.com ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: How do you tell tempo for indications in English
Hi Patrick, Short of conducting extensive field research in Ireland's pubs, you might try asking the question here. http://www.thesession.org/discussions/ Cheers, Mike On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 6:59 AM, James Lowe james.l...@datacore.com wrote: Hello, -Original Message- From: lilypond-user-bounces+james.lowe=datacore@gnu.org [mailto: lilypond-user-bounces+james.lowe lilypond-user-bounces%2Bjames.lowe= datacore@gnu.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Horgan Sent: 02 February 2011 04:05 To: Mailinglist lilypond-user Subject: How do you tell tempo for indications in English I'm setting some of O'Neill's Irish tunes, and the tempo indications are (a selection): Animated, Boldly, Cheerful, Cheerfully, Gaily, Gracefully, Moderate, Plaintive, Plaintively, Playful, Playfully, Rather slow, Slow, Slow and distinctly, Slow and mournful, Slow and tenderly, Slow and with feeling, Slow with expression, Slow and feeling, Spirited, Tenderly, Very slow, With animation, With expression, With feeling, With spirit What do you do with that? I can find tables of usual tempo ranges for italian tempo indications, but I have no idea what to do with these. I'd like them to be authentic, in that the midi file would be about as fast as the tune would usually be played in an Irish pub. Does anyone have any ideas? --- I don’t think there is such a thing a 'authentic' tempo range if you are referring to setting crotchet/quaver/minim tempo speeds. What you are asking, it seems is, 'what speed is 'cheerful''? Which doesn't makes much sense. I expect it was simply played 'cheerfully' and that would depend on who was doing the playing. Also can you be sure that the same tune played in one 'Irish pub' is any different from a 'non-Irish pub' or that other 'Irish pub' down the road? The music is probably played as fast or slow as the musicians play it and that can depend on how many times they have played together, the smell of the crowd or simply the number of pints of the 'black stuff' they have put away before/during the gig. ;) 110201-63 Sorry if that sounds a bit flippant, but I am not sure what kind of answer you are going to get other than someone else's guestimation of which you could do yourself. Tempo in terms of words (rather than beat numbers) is more about feeling than speed. James ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: How do you tell tempo for indications in English (music question, not Lilypond question)
What you are asking, it seems is, 'what speed is 'cheerful''? Which doesn't makes much sense. I disagree... at least in part. I think that there is a range of speeds that most musicians would say Yes, that is cheerful. when they hear it. In other words it requires some musicality, some judgment, since it is less prescriptive than the Beethoven score where he writes half-note = 72. There are certainly tempos which are not cheerful (e.g. quarter-note = 52). If you get it wrong in the MIDI file, don't feel bad. I've heard, for example, performances of Tchaikovsky's Fifth by professional orchestras (I know, it's the conductors fault, not the orchestra's) where the second movement was painfully slow - just WRONG to my ears (...and it's much harder to play the horn solo well ;-) I'm sure there's more variability (of performance tempi) in Irish folk tunes than in Tchaikovsky symphonies, so it is to be expected. Besides, I don't think anyone will confuse a MIDI performance with a live performance, and place too high an expectation on authenticity. Tim Reeves ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: How do you tell tempo for indications in English
On 02/02/2011 03:59 AM, James Lowe wrote: ... elision by patrick ... I don’t think there is such a thing a 'authentic' tempo range if you are referring to setting crotchet/quaver/minim tempo speeds. What you are asking, it seems is, 'what speed is 'cheerful''? Which doesn't makes much sense. I expect it was simply played 'cheerfully' and that would depend on who was doing the playing. Also can you be sure that the same tune played in one 'Irish pub' is any different from a 'non-Irish pub' or that other 'Irish pub' down the road? The music is probably played as fast or slow as the musicians play it and that can depend on how many times they have played together, the smell of the crowd or simply the number of pints of the 'black stuff' they have put away before/during the gig. ;) 110201-63 Sorry if that sounds a bit flippant, but I am not sure what kind of answer you are going to get other than someone else's guestimation of which you could do yourself. Tempo in terms of words (rather than beat numbers) is more about feeling than speed. So what you're saying is that you really don't know. Still, there must be a normal range for a fast jig for example. If you don't know it's ok, but hopefully someone will know. I don't know the repertoire, but I want to, (on guitar), and it would be helpful to know if I'm learning something at half the speed most would play it, or conversely at twice the speed. I'm not looking for anything exact, but it would be nice to be in the ballpark rather than down the street. Patrick ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: How do you tell tempo for indications in English
On 02/02/2011 06:43 AM, Michael Ellis wrote: Hi Patrick, Short of conducting extensive field research in Ireland's pubs, you might try asking the question here. http://www.thesession.org/discussions/ Cheers, Mike What a treasure. Thank you mike. It lead me to http://www.itma.ie/English/Introduction.html. Patrick ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: How do you tell tempo for indications in English
On 02/02/2011 03:30 AM, Ralph Palmer wrote: On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 11:05 PM, Patrick Horgan phorg...@yahoo.com mailto:phorg...@yahoo.com wrote: I'm setting some of O'Neill's Irish tunes, and the tempo indications are (a selection): Animated, Boldly, Cheerful, Cheerfully, Gaily, Gracefully, Moderate, Plaintive, Plaintively, Playful, Playfully, Rather slow, Slow, Slow and distinctly, Slow and mournful, Slow and tenderly, Slow and with feeling, Slow with expression, Slow and feeling, Spirited, Tenderly, Very slow, With animation, With expression, With feeling, With spirit What do you do with that? I can find tables of usual tempo ranges for italian tempo indications, but I have no idea what to do with these. I'd like them to be authentic, in that the midi file would be about as fast as the tune would usually be played in an Irish pub. Does anyone have any ideas? Patrick Greetings, Patrick - The tempo indications are just what they say. There's a lot of variation in tempo for the same tune at various sessions.This may not be a lot of help, but I would suggest three possibilities: 1) play the midi at a default or provisional tempo, decide whether it sounds right to you, then modify the tempo accordingly; But I don't know the repertoire so I don't know what sounds right. 2) get a metronome with a beat input button, play or hum the tune the way you think it should go, then tap the metronome button at that pace to find the tempo; or Again, I don't know the repertoire. 3) find a recording or an Irish session musician who will play the tune for you, and determine that tempo. I've tried with some of that with youtube. Still not helpful for most, cause I can't find them. No hard and fast rules, I'm afraid. I'd like to see the results when you're done. Incidentally, if you didn't know, all the O'Neill's tunes have been transcribed using ABC format and are freely available. Some of them may give tempos; I don't know. If you want to check them out, go to http://trillian.mit.edu/~jc/cgi/abc/tunefind http://trillian.mit.edu/%7Ejc/cgi/abc/tunefind enter the tune name, and you can check out the ABC source file, a .jpg, a .png, and other formats. Yeah, I know that site. They mention the same problem and that most of the files don't have any real tempo indications so the midi files are often at weird speeds. There will be *multiple* hits for each tune. If you want the O'Neill's, it will be identified by a number (I can't remember what the number is) all the way to the left of the entry. Thank you, Patrick ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
How do you tell tempo for indications in English
I'm setting some of O'Neill's Irish tunes, and the tempo indications are (a selection): Animated, Boldly, Cheerful, Cheerfully, Gaily, Gracefully, Moderate, Plaintive, Plaintively, Playful, Playfully, Rather slow, Slow, Slow and distinctly, Slow and mournful, Slow and tenderly, Slow and with feeling, Slow with expression, Slow and feeling, Spirited, Tenderly, Very slow, With animation, With expression, With feeling, With spirit What do you do with that? I can find tables of usual tempo ranges for italian tempo indications, but I have no idea what to do with these. I'd like them to be authentic, in that the midi file would be about as fast as the tune would usually be played in an Irish pub. Does anyone have any ideas? Patrick ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
