Ukulele and chitarrino?
Hi all On Friday 02 January 2004 01:50, Bill Sterling wrote: ? http://www.crane.gr.jp/HyperUkuleleSchool/hyper-U/Weiss/Passagaille_1.gif I made a few ukulele searchs by Google, and to my astonishment the little guitar is often tuned in g c e a in re-entrant way (so the low 4th string is a fifth higher than the 3rd string. This tuning is like the renaissance guitar (chitarrino) tuning. (Well, the chitarrino has both the high and low g in the 4th course.) Anyhow, some of the google found pages could tell that one Portuguese instrument was taken to Ocean islands in 19th celtury, and that instrument gave the idea for ukulele. Does the collective List Wisdom happen to know, if it really is so that the ukulele is a direct(?) descendant of renaissance guitar? And is there anything in common in the playing technique? Arto
Lute maker
I was advised to get in touch with you by Chris Goodwin. I have an 8 = course lute made by Michael Cameron, 1976, Hampstead, London. I have = tried to find out anything about this maker but have had no success. I = would be grateful if you could pass on any information you may have. Many thanks, Janet Ford --
Re: Double 1st
- Original Message - From: sterling price [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 05 January 2004 04:25 Subject: Re: Double 1st Weren't many re-entrant theorbos strung with a double first? And especially bass lutes? I have been wanting to try a theorbo with all double courses. I have heard that they were more common historicaly than now. Sterling Price __ Do you Yahoo!? Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003 http://search.yahoo.com/top2003 Dear Sterling, With a reentrant tuning there would be no reason not to have a double first, and indeed most surviving Italian theorboes have 6 double courses on the fingerboard and 8 single basses. This is in contrast, as you say, to the modern fashion of having single strings throughout (and often 7 courses on the fingerboard). One exception seems to be Castaldi, who is pictured in his book with a single-strung (and very small) theorbo. French theorboes are thought to have been single-strung (evidence from iconography) and Mace's English theorbo was double strung throughout, like his lute (though there are plenty of arguments to be had about whether there was a difference between the two and if so, what it was - if my memory serves me correctly they both had 12 courses). With normal lute tuning there is plenty of evidence from surviving instruments and iconography showing double firsts. The original Venere lute which I used as a model (Vienna, C36) seems to have its original bridge, with 7 courses, all double. The same is true of the treble lute in the same collection (C39) with a 44cm string length, though in this case there is doubt about the originality of the bridge. The Liuto Attiorbato by Matteo Sellas in the VA, London has 14 pegs in the lower pegbox, so 7 double courses on the fingerboard. A century earlier there is no shortage of paintings showing 6c lutes with a double first - in fact it would be interesting to know just what proportion of paintings of 6c lutes show single/double firsts - has anyone looked at this? Best wishes, Martin
Fw: new pictures
- Original Message - From: Martin Shepherd [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 03 January 2004 21:47 Subject: Re: new pictures - Original Message - From: lutesmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 04 January 2004 17:45 Subject: Re: new pictures Martin, Very nice looking lute! I seem to recall JD expressing a preference for 9 tied frets. Most luthiers nowadays seem to avoid this since somehow the classic proportions are a little stretched. Since I am also curious to see how 9 neck frets would work I wonder what your take on this is. all the best, Sean Smith Dear Sean, Dowland actually recommends 10 tied frets. It is not uncommon (in paintings) for 11c lutes to have room for ten, though of course only nine are usually tied. I find this particularly interesting as it implies a lowering of pitch - Dowland actually talks about the French *lengthening* the necks of the lutes, and in any case it is much more likely that someone would lengthen the neck of an existing lute rather than build a new one! Dowland's comments are supported by some contemporary iconography - the pictures of lutes in Fuhrmann (1615) and Besard (1617) show big multirib lutes in Venetian/Paduan style but with nine or ten tied frets. Best wishes, Martin
Re: Modern music for Renaissance Baroque lute
The german lute society also has a Lexicon (ILNL or so they name it). I don't know how comprehensive this is but maybe worth a look. Best wishes Thomas Am Mon, 2004-01-05 um 04.54 schrieb Roman Turovsky: Dear Luteneers, Does anyone know a web site which has a comprehensive list of music written by contemporary composers for the Renaissance Baroque lutes? Regards, Michael Stitt There is none, but David Parsons and Lynda Sayce are compiling one. It would be a hard copy publication though. RT -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.lautenist.de / www.tslaute.de/weiss --
Re: 14 course German theorbo?
Hi, I'm playing a 11-ch. and a 13-ch. swan neck baroque lute (the Martin Hoffmann type 169_, which actually is made my JCH). The term german theorboe could be irritating because Baron used it for a different instrument (a large D-Minor lute with the upper two courses shifted into the basses) but many lutenists and luthiers still call the instrument german theorboe - even on the bill for my instrument it's named like this and Lutz calls it in his booklet Theorbenlaute (theorboe lute), which is correct because it is theorboed (second pegbox) but still a regular baroque lute. Anyway we got used to feel that theorboes are that large beasts with the reentrant tuning and the german swan neck type of lute has more to do with a liuto attiorbato so I would tell it simply a baroque lute maybe with the addition it would be a late model with swan neck. A historical problem is IMO that we don't have examples of a 14-ch. instrument. I think there is only one work for it (the g-minor suite - cello suite 5 by Bach dedicated to a Monsieur Schouster, written in staff notation.) It's hard to tell if we can tell by this one example of someone who was no lutenist and whose few compositions for the lute are still in discussion that there really was such an instrument (it could well be that the great Maestro made a tiny mistake widening the bass range of the instrument to g). Falckenhagen and Weyrauch changed the basses to fit to a 13-ch. instrument both respected lutenists. Best wishes Thomas Am Mon, 2004-01-05 um 05.15 schrieb sterling price: Hi- I play a 14c baroque-lute. I use the 14th course all time in Weiss where it makes sense-for instance in c major keys. The thing about playing a 14 course baroque lute is the music is designed for 13 courses so having a 14th can be confusing for the thumb when playing a 13c then a 14c like I do. I moved the 14th over so there is a bigger space between 13 and 14. Also-just call it what it is-a baroque lute. The difference in sound is barely noticable. Sterling Price --- Michael Stitt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear all, Am I right to assume that Bach's music is the only music to require that low Gg - fourteeth course? The ambiguity and terminology of description for this lute has always been a bit of problem for me. When asked what instrument I play and Courses versus `number of strings', it becomes a mouthful. I am asked: `What instrument do you play?' I play a 14 course German theorbo, is usually my reply. But then explaining that each course has two `doubled-up' strings but the first two are single, making a sum total of twenty-six NOT twenty-eight strings... Then there is `fourteen course??!' - I thought the Baroque lute has thirteen courses? My response is: `Yes, a Gg tp play Bach's BWV 995, 1997, 1000' Almost finally, but is it really a theorbo or a Baroque lute? `Yes it is a theorbo because it has the extra bass pegbox'. Why the German bit? `It is based on a lute constructed by JCHoffmann who was German...'. End of breath... I bet a guitarist does not get this, six strings will do! hehe. Regards, Michael Stitt - Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now -- __ Do you Yahoo!? Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003 http://search.yahoo.com/top2003 -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.lautenist.de / www.tslaute.de/weiss --
Re: Ukulele and chitarrino?
Dear Arto, a Ukulele (and double bass!) player told me that it's played with a thumb down stroke and index up stroke, not the other way round as one might expect. It's a bit like renaissance technique, isn't it? Regards, Stephan Am 5 Jan 2004 um 12:17 hat Arto Wikla geschrieben: Hi all On Friday 02 January 2004 01:50, Bill Sterling wrote: ? http://www.crane.gr.jp/HyperUkuleleSchool/hyper-U/Weiss/Passagaille_ 1.gif I made a few ukulele searchs by Google, and to my astonishment the little guitar is often tuned in g c e a in re-entrant way (so the low 4th string is a fifth higher than the 3rd string. This tuning is like the renaissance guitar (chitarrino) tuning. (Well, the chitarrino has both the high and low g in the 4th course.) Anyhow, some of the google found pages could tell that one Portuguese instrument was taken to Ocean islands in 19th celtury, and that instrument gave the idea for ukulele. Does the collective List Wisdom happen to know, if it really is so that the ukulele is a direct(?) descendant of renaissance guitar? And is there anything in common in the playing technique? Arto
Re: Ukulele and chitarrino?
BTW, I regularly play renaissance guitar music on my baritone uke (which is tuned like the top 4 on a guitar) and it works great. Of course the uke is a direct descendant of the renaissance guitar... but by way of the modern guitar. That is, after the development of the six string guitar, the Portuguese developed a number of small variants, one of which found it's way to Hawaii where it was duplicated. Arto Wikla wrote: Hi all On Friday 02 January 2004 01:50, Bill Sterling wrote: ? http://www.crane.gr.jp/HyperUkuleleSchool/hyper-U/Weiss/Passagaille_1.gif I made a few ukulele searchs by Google, and to my astonishment the little guitar is often tuned in g c e a in re-entrant way (so the low 4th string is a fifth higher than the 3rd string. This tuning is like the renaissance guitar (chitarrino) tuning. (Well, the chitarrino has both the high and low g in the 4th course.) Anyhow, some of the google found pages could tell that one Portuguese instrument was taken to Ocean islands in 19th celtury, and that instrument gave the idea for ukulele. Does the collective List Wisdom happen to know, if it really is so that the ukulele is a direct(?) descendant of renaissance guitar? And is there anything in common in the playing technique? Arto -- Rough-edged songs from a dark place in the soul: http://DoctorOakroot.com
Re: Ukulele and chitarrino?
I attended James Tyler's class on the early guitar at the Lute Society of America summer seminar of 1993 in Rochester, New York, in which he made a point of telling us that the little chitarrino (renaissance four course guitar) was spread to many corners of the world through Jesuit missionaries in the 16th and 17th centuries and, although long extinct in its original form, survives in various living fossil types: the ukulele in Hawaii, the charango in South America, and similar forms and sizes in other locations (such as the Canary Islands and in Mexico), often with re-entrant tuning, and sometimes using tablature notations. Can anybody else name these current day types in their respective countries? Kenneth
RE: Modern music for Renaissance Baroque lute
Michael, it would be worth looking on Stefan Lundren's site.http://www.lundgren-edition.com/new_lute_works.htm regards Charles Browne -Original Message- From: Michael Stitt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 05 January 2004 02:32 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Modern music for Renaissance Baroque lute Dear Luteneers, Does anyone know a web site which has a comprehensive list of music written by contemporary composers for the Renaissance Baroque lutes? Regards, Michael Stitt - Do you Yahoo!? Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003 --
Double 1st
Dear Sterling, There seems to have been considerable variety in instruments known as theorboes. Single or double strings on the fingerboard is one of many variants. From the purely musical point of view (i.e. recreation of different notes, not tone quality), the only significant difference between a single-strung theorbo and a double-strung one would be if the double course consisted of two strings tuned an octave apart. Andrea Dammiani has suggested that this tuning is likely for the theorbo music of Melii, where there are some odd melodic shifts from one octave to another. A single-strung theorbo would not produce the same (desired?) effect. If you wander into a reasonably-sized music shop today, you will see a wide assortment of instruments, particularly guitars: different sizes, different numbers of strings, acoustic/ semi-acoustic, electric, etc. When considering lutes and theorboes over a period of anything from 100 to 300 years, it is not surprising that there was considerable variety then too. It is tempting to over-simplify, and to try to identify standard instruments, whereas the reality was often more complex than that. Best wishes, Stewart. - Original Message - From: sterling price [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 4:25 AM Subject: Re: Double 1st Weren't many re-entrant theorbos strung with a double first? And especially bass lutes? I have been wanting to try a theorbo with all double courses. I have heard that they were more common historicaly than now. Sterling Price __ Do you Yahoo!? Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003 http://search.yahoo.com/top2003
Nice supplement with the Lute News 68
Dear lutenists, I just got the Lute News number 68, December 2003 by the Lute Society (UK). It had a very nice music supplement: 24 Preludes and Recercars from early renaissance (early means here the first half of 16th century, so not so very early... ;-) But it is a very good compilation of not too complicated music: nice for beginners, good enough also for more advanced players, nice repertoire for quick gigs and sight reading, good etydes... It contains music from Basel F.IX.56, Pesaro 1144, Spinaccino, Bossinensis, Dalza, dall'Aquila, Paris 429, Thibault, Braye, etc. The compilation and the (French tab) edition are by John H. Robinson of Univ. Newcastle upon Tyne. Thanks to The Lute Society and John! Arto
Girl with the Pearl Earing
I had a chance to see a preview of the Johannes Vermeer movie, Girl with a Pearl Earing, several weeks ago, but due to a bad storm I missed it. I have since seen the preview, and there are scenes of Vermeer with his models painting. I was wondering if anyone had seen the movie yet, and whether any lutes were featured? Either on the soundtrack or being played by the models. - Do you Yahoo!? Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003 --
Re: Double 1st (HIP message included)
- Original Message - From: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 05 January 2004 16:24 Subject: Double 1st Dear Sterling, There seems to have been considerable variety in instruments known as theorboes. Single or double strings on the fingerboard is one of many variants. From the purely musical point of view (i.e. recreation of different notes, not tone quality), the only significant difference between a single-strung theorbo and a double-strung one would be if the double course consisted of two strings tuned an octave apart. Andrea Dammiani has suggested that this tuning is likely for the theorbo music of Melii, where there are some odd melodic shifts from one octave to another. A single-strung theorbo would not produce the same (desired?) effect. Dear Stewart, You're quite right that we tend to oversimplify, and someone has already hauled me over the coals for suggesting that Italian theorboes were double, French single, etc. - more of which another time... I know what you mean about there being no difference in *notes* between single and double, but tone quality (and perhaps quantity) is important, which is why I worry about the tendency of modern lutenists to avoid double firsts. I see it as something which has just been quietly swept under the carpet, just as gut frets, thumb-under on renaissance lute, thumb-out on baroque lute, double frets, double second, no wound strings, etc., etc., have been in the past (and some of them still into the present). If we're serious about what lutes might have sounded like in the past, I think we have to try some things which seem a bit odd. We have to be realistic about the success or otherwise of our experiments, of course, and we can't expect to get it right first time (gut stringing being an example of a still unresolved problem). But I think you would agree that we should not ignore the evidence just because it suits our prejudices. Of course the most important thing is the music,! and I feel we've made considerable progress in understanding that (though there's still a long way to go) - but we wouldn't be doing what we're doing if we didn't believe that the technology which makes the music possible wasn't inportant too, otherwise we'd all be playing it on the electric guitar... Enough of that. Having tried a double first, I can say that it makes a different sound, and requires a different (well, more careful) technique. If it was what Dowland Co. had in mind, it seems more than a historical curiousity and more like something we should take seriously. Best wishes to all, Martin
Re: 14 course German theorbo?
Dear Miles, Zamboni wrote for an Archlute which is tuned in the vielle tone (renaissance tuning) while Michael tunes his instrument in the new (d-minor) tuning. Archlutes are usually 14-ch., I also know about 15-ch. examples (for example in Paris - take a look at the website of David van Edwards and search for liito attiorbato and you'll find fotos of replica). There are a lot of other differences to the baroque (d-minor) lute (barring, usual number of ribs etc.) and I think one need to name them as different instruments. best wishes Thomas Am Mon, 2004-01-05 um 19.45 schrieb Miles Dempster: Dear Michael, Zamboni' s sonatas very occasionally use a 14th course. Regards Miles Dempster On Sunday, January 4, 2004, at 09:29 PM, Michael Stitt wrote: Dear all, Am I right to assume that Bach's music is the only music to require that low Gg - fourteeth course? The ambiguity and terminology of description for this lute has always been a bit of problem for me. When asked what instrument I play and Courses versus `number of strings', it becomes a mouthful. I am asked: `What instrument do you play?' I play a 14 course German theorbo, is usually my reply. But then explaining that each course has two `doubled-up' strings but the first two are single, making a sum total of twenty-six NOT twenty-eight strings... Then there is `fourteen course??!' - I thought the Baroque lute has thirteen courses? My response is: `Yes, a Gg tp play Bach's BWV 995, 1997, 1000' Almost finally, but is it really a theorbo or a Baroque lute? `Yes it is a theorbo because it has the extra bass pegbox'. Why the German bit? `It is based on a lute constructed by JCHoffmann who was German...'. End of breath... I bet a guitarist does not get this, six strings will do! hehe. Regards, Michael Stitt - Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now -- -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.lautenist.de / www.tslaute.de/weiss --
Gerle
Hello everyone, Does anyone know where I might find some information about Gerle's Das ander Buch Laub 1549? Specifically, who are the composers and does the book contain reprints of earlier works? Best regards, Jason
Re: Double 1st (HIP message included)
I would support your point in general - just an addendum: It's somehow like a relation between pupil and teacher: We need the teacher to learn the basics, technique and - yes! to get a feeling for the music but at a certain point in the education we also need to emanzipate ourselfs from our teachers and try to become our own musical personality. Otherwise we would just be copies, some better, some worse. The problem is at what point one should feel ready for amanzipating. The lute is a world of it's own and one's life cannot be long enough to just get more than a glimpse. So a teacher can be very helpfull as a guiding hand. That's the same with historic lute and us nowadays. It's okay to feel free from historic forces but it's okay for me to rely on the secure guidance of the historic. Best wishes Thomas Am Mon, 2004-01-05 um 22.29 schrieb David Rastall: On Sunday, January 4, 2004, at 02:47 PM, Martin Shepherd wrote: ...we should not ignore the evidence just because it suits our prejudices. I am quite willing to ignore it if it fails to suit my needs! If gut strings sound too dull and heavy in the bass, or fail to stay in tune because of the weather, or fray and break too readily in the treble, I am not going to use them. If I can get a better sound playing thumb-one way as opposed to thumb-some other way, I will do it. I've been playing the lute long enough to know what works for me and what doesn't, and it's that consideration that shapes my playing, not the tyranny of history (not even the benign dictatorship of history!). Of course the most important thing is the music,! I agree, but learning to reproduce old masters, fascinating as that may be, is only a small part of learning how to play the lute. ...we wouldn't be doing what we're doing if we didn't believe that the technology which makes the music possible wasn't inportant too otherwise we'd all be playing it on the electric guitar... I dont know about electric guitar, but a lot of orchestras, bands, brass ensembles and soloists of all types and from all imaginable backgrounds, do play early music on modern instruments. We lutenists are not the only ones making music with this old repertoire. Are you going to say all the rest of the world is wrong? If you are, then I would have to suggest that you do so because it suits your, uh, I hate that word predjudices, let's say your likes and dislikes. I await the flames. David Rastall -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.lautenist.de / www.tslaute.de/weiss --
Re: MORE THAN 14 course German theorbo?
My liuto attiorbato (14-ch. model after Sellas) has a low F and it's frequently used by Mellii, Zamboni and others. I have not seen up to now a piece in the italian baroque which uses a 15th ch. - many players even tune their 14th course at f-sharp (for easier continuo). BTW: BWV 995 works fine on a 13-ch instrument when tuning the 13th course at G and transposing just the very few passages an A is needed. Best wishes Thomas Am Mon, 2004-01-05 um 22.52 schrieb Michael Stitt: Thanks for this Thomas. Assuming Bach either misunderstood the lowest tuning of the Baroque lute (which I very much doubt) not being an Gg but rather a Aa, or was in contact with such a 14 course instrument. Just how low can the instrument be tuned down to take advantage of low bass strings for musical affect on the instrument? My thumb with little finger JUST manages the stretch to reach those low Gs, but I find that - say in the final bars of BWV 995 my hand assumes a guitarist-like position. I had once thought of adding a fifteenth course a very low Ff, but in the end musically what would this achieve? Any suggestions on the value of a very low Ff? Regards, Michael Stitt Thomas Schall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Miles, Zamboni wrote for an Archlute which is tuned in the vielle tone (renaissance tuning) while Michael tunes his instrument in the new (d-minor) tuning. Archlutes are usually 14-ch., I also know about 15-ch. examples (for example in Paris - take a look at the website of David van Edwards and search for liito attiorbato and you'll find fotos of replica). There are a lot of other differences to the baroque (d-minor) lute (barring, usual number of ribs etc.) and I think one need to name them as different instruments. best wishes Thomas Am Mon, 2004-01-05 um 19.45 schrieb Miles Dempster: Dear Michael, Zamboni' s sonatas very occasionally use a 14th course. Regards Miles Dempster On Sunday, January 4, 2004, at 09:29 PM, Michael Stitt wrote: Dear all, Am I right to assume that Bach's music is the only music to require that low Gg - fourteeth course? The ambiguity and terminology of description for this lute has always been a bit of problem for me. When asked what instrument I play and Courses versus `number of strings', it becomes a mouthful. I am asked: `What instrument do you play?' I play a 14 course German theorbo, is usually my reply. But then explaining that each course has two `doubled-up' strings but the first two are single, making a sum total of twenty-six NOT twenty-eight strings... Then there is `fourteen course??!' - I thought the Baroque lute has thirteen courses? My response is: `Yes, a Gg tp play Bach's BWV 995, 1997, 1000' Almost finally, but is it really a theorbo or a Baroque lute? `Yes it is a theorbo because it has the extra bass pegbox'. Why the German bit? `It is based on a lute constructed by JCHoffmann who was German...'. End of breath... I bet a guitarist does not get this, six strings will do! hehe. Regards, Michael Stitt - Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now -- -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.lautenist.de / www.tslaute.de/weiss -- __ Do you Yahoo!? Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003 -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.lautenist.de / www.tslaute.de/weiss --
Re: MORE THAN 14 course German theorbo?
Thomas, Very interesting indeed! Well I might try a retune and explore. Many thanks, Michael Stitt Thomas Schall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My liuto attiorbato (14-ch. model after Sellas) has a low F and it's frequently used by Mellii, Zamboni and others. I have not seen up to now a piece in the italian baroque which uses a 15th ch. - many players even tune their 14th course at f-sharp (for easier continuo). BTW: BWV 995 works fine on a 13-ch instrument when tuning the 13th course at G and transposing just the very few passages an A is needed. Best wishes Thomas Am Mon, 2004-01-05 um 22.52 schrieb Michael Stitt: Thanks for this Thomas. Assuming Bach either misunderstood the lowest tuning of the Baroque lute (which I very much doubt) not being an Gg but rather a Aa, or was in contact with such a 14 course instrument. Just how low can the instrument be tuned down to take advantage of low bass strings for musical affect on the instrument? My thumb with little finger JUST manages the stretch to reach those low Gs, but I find that - say in the final bars of BWV 995 my hand assumes a guitarist-like position. I had once thought of adding a fifteenth course a very low Ff, but in the end musically what would this achieve? Any suggestions on the value of a very low Ff? Regards, Michael Stitt Thomas Schall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Miles, Zamboni wrote for an Archlute which is tuned in the vielle tone (renaissance tuning) while Michael tunes his instrument in the new (d-minor) tuning. Archlutes are usually 14-ch., I also know about 15-ch. examples (for example in Paris - take a look at the website of David van Edwards and search for liito attiorbato and you'll find fotos of replica). There are a lot of other differences to the baroque (d-minor) lute (barring, usual number of ribs etc.) and I think one need to name them as different instruments. best wishes Thomas Am Mon, 2004-01-05 um 19.45 schrieb Miles Dempster: Dear Michael, Zamboni' s sonatas very occasionally use a 14th course. Regards Miles Dempster On Sunday, January 4, 2004, at 09:29 PM, Michael Stitt wrote: Dear all, Am I right to assume that Bach's music is the only music to require that low Gg - fourteeth course? The ambiguity and terminology of description for this lute has always been a bit of problem for me. When asked what instrument I play and Courses versus `number of strings', it becomes a mouthful. I am asked: `What instrument do you play?' I play a 14 course German theorbo, is usually my reply. But then explaining that each course has two `doubled-up' strings but the first two are single, making a sum total of twenty-six NOT twenty-eight strings... Then there is `fourteen course??!' - I thought the Baroque lute has thirteen courses? My response is: `Yes, a Gg tp play Bach's BWV 995, 1997, 1000' Almost finally, but is it really a theorbo or a Baroque lute? `Yes it is a theorbo because it has the extra bass pegbox'. Why the German bit? `It is based on a lute constructed by JCHoffmann who was German...'. End of breath... I bet a guitarist does not get this, six strings will do! hehe. Regards, Michael Stitt - Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now -- -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.lautenist.de / www.tslaute.de/weiss -- - Do you Yahoo!? Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003 -- Thomas SchallNiederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach06196/[EMAIL PROTECTED] / www.tslaute.de/weiss - Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now --
Re: MORE THAN 14 course German theorbo?
Thanks for this Thomas. Assuming Bach either misunderstood the lowest tuning of the Baroque lute (which I very much doubt) not being an Gg but rather a Aa, or was in contact with such a 14 course instrument. Just how low can the instrument be tuned down to take advantage of low bass strings for musical affect on the instrument? My thumb with little finger JUST manages the stretch to reach those low Gs, but I find that - say in the final bars of BWV 995 my hand assumes a guitarist-like position. I had once thought of adding a fifteenth course a very low Ff, but in the end musically what would this achieve? Any suggestions on the value of a very low Ff? Regards, Michael Stitt Thomas Schall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Miles, Zamboni wrote for an Archlute which is tuned in the vielle tone (renaissance tuning) while Michael tunes his instrument in the new (d-minor) tuning. Archlutes are usually 14-ch., I also know about 15-ch. examples (for example in Paris - take a look at the website of David van Edwards and search for liito attiorbato and you'll find fotos of replica). There are a lot of other differences to the baroque (d-minor) lute (barring, usual number of ribs etc.) and I think one need to name them as different instruments. best wishes Thomas Am Mon, 2004-01-05 um 19.45 schrieb Miles Dempster: Dear Michael, Zamboni' s sonatas very occasionally use a 14th course. Regards Miles Dempster On Sunday, January 4, 2004, at 09:29 PM, Michael Stitt wrote: Dear all, Am I right to assume that Bach's music is the only music to require that low Gg - fourteeth course? The ambiguity and terminology of description for this lute has always been a bit of problem for me. When asked what instrument I play and Courses versus `number of strings', it becomes a mouthful. I am asked: `What instrument do you play?' I play a 14 course German theorbo, is usually my reply. But then explaining that each course has two `doubled-up' strings but the first two are single, making a sum total of twenty-six NOT twenty-eight strings... Then there is `fourteen course??!' - I thought the Baroque lute has thirteen courses? My response is: `Yes, a Gg tp play Bach's BWV 995, 1997, 1000' Almost finally, but is it really a theorbo or a Baroque lute? `Yes it is a theorbo because it has the extra bass pegbox'. Why the German bit? `It is based on a lute constructed by JCHoffmann who was German...'. End of breath... I bet a guitarist does not get this, six strings will do! hehe. Regards, Michael Stitt - Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now -- -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.lautenist.de / www.tslaute.de/weiss -- - Do you Yahoo!? Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003 --
Re: Gerle
Jason Kortis wrote: Hello everyone, Does anyone know where I might find some information about Gerle's Das ander Buch Laub 1549? Specifically, who are the composers and does the book contain reprints of earlier works? Best regards, Jason ??? Such a book does not exist. Do you mean Neusidler's book? The Laub doesn't make sense :) Rainer adS
Re: MORE THAN 14 course German theorbo?
Dear Michael, On Mon, 5 Jan 2004, Michael Stitt wrote: Arto!!!Stop itt!!:-) ;-) I am sorry Michael! I just could not avoid saying so... ;-)) Arto
Re: Gerle
Dear Jason, I can see no reference to this book in H. M. Brown's _Instrumental Music Printed Before 1600_. Are you sure you have the right details? If so, please could you tell us more about the book, and how you know what you know already. Best wishes, Stewart. - Original Message - From: Jason Kortis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 9:10 PM Subject: Gerle Hello everyone, Does anyone know where I might find some information about Gerle's Das ander Buch Laub 1549? Specifically, who are the composers and does the book contain reprints of earlier works? Best regards, Jason
Re: Gerle
Hello Rainer, I guess I do - while browsing my local music library's German lute music tablature books, I saw this one which is actually 3 in 1. Gerle is listed as the author in the library's catalogue. Below is a paste of the title- Ein Newes sehr kunstliches Lautenbuch Formschneider 1552 / Hans Gerle.Das ander Buch Laub 1549 ; Das dritt Buch Gunther 1544 / Hans Newsidler Best, Jason - Original Message - From: Rainer aus dem Spring [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 6:19 PM Subject: Re: Gerle Jason Kortis wrote: Hello everyone, Does anyone know where I might find some information about Gerle's Das ander Buch Laub 1549? Specifically, who are the composers and does the book contain reprints of earlier works? Best regards, Jason ??? Such a book does not exist. Do you mean Neusidler's book? The Laub doesn't make sense :) Rainer adS
Re: Double 1st (HIP message included)
Hi David: Here is the Heresy of Heresies: I use different weights of clear monofilament fishing line. I can but it in bulk cheaply, it is available in many different diameters, I have very little problem with it and if it does mess up it is easy enough and cheap enough to just change it out. It does not mash down or lose its elasticity. The best part: I don't agonize over the stuff. If I lose a fret because the knot failed I just roll off a bunch more mono and away we go. Not that it matters much, but I suppose this admission, or revelation if you prefer, relegates me to the back room as an ahistorical bore that does not have a clue and should not be allowed to even look at a Lute let alone own one and try to play it. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: David Rastall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 6:00 PM Subject: Re: Double 1st (HIP message included) Hi Vance, Nylon frets, eh? That's downright heretical! To answer your question, I always think I'm going to get flamed when I disagreee with lute players on certain subjects, and the sacredness of history is one of them. Over the years, I've come to regard music history as more and more interesting the more I learn about it, but less and less of a lifeline. I fear that many of the Wise on the list don't see it that way. ...I hope this discussion does not cause the usual slash and burn so common around here when something seems to offend someone else's idea of the way things should be. So do I. I think sometimes we forget that the Lute has a long and often obscure history where the people, instruments, strings and music were in constant change and evolution. To think that there is one sacred way to play is just plain ignorant and narrow sighted. The same can be said about the instrument itself. The more I try to learn about the Lute the more I realize how much I and We don't, and possible cannot, know about it. Well, I'm one of those people who believes that nearly all theoretical questions regarding music can be answered on stage. I've been thinking about this lately, as I just recently joined a local music society in Washington DC that consists almost entirely of people trained in 19th-century Romantic music. I'm the only performing member on the lute. When I get up to play the lute for these folks, I pretty much know that they are not very knowledgeable in music history pre-Bach. I have to make the lute music real to them, yet I can't rely on any common historical knowledge to do it. It's turning into an interesting challenge. BTW, I'm just curious: what do you use for nylon fret material? guitar strings maybe? David R
Re: MORE THAN 14 course German theorbo? BACH
Howard, This is fair assumption to make, but I don't think a man who devoted a greater part of his life to music, a meticulous thinker, friends of at least two lutenists, and one frequented by one of the greatest of them all (Weiss), without mistaking the lowest bass string on the lute. It just seems too hard to believe. He may have written it on the lautenwerke, but he intended it to be played on a lute, ( See autograph copy). I think it all points to Weyrauch (sp?) or Falkenhagen - or - and no one knows for sure on this - Schouster - a possible amateur lutenist? having ownership of a 14 course with that low Gg. Best regards, Michael. Howard Posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michael Stitt at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for this Thomas. Assuming Bach either misunderstood the lowest tuning of the Baroque lute (which I very much doubt) not being an Gg but rather a Aa, or was in contact with such a 14 course instrument. I think it makes more sense to assume that he had a low G on his lautenwerk. - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the Signing Bonus Sweepstakes --
Re: 14 course German theorbo? Three peg boxes?
I believe it is a copy of Jauch. ed At 06:59 PM 1/5/04 -0800, Michael Stitt wrote: Up or down, it must be for a different tuning, otherwise it would rip the pegbox off the neck. I note Bob Barto plays something like a three-pegbox swan neck theorbo lute. Is this a modern adaption or based on a historical - period instrument? Regards, Michael Stitt David Rastall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Monday, January 5, 2004, at 05:04 PM, Thomas Schall wrote: My liuto attiorbato (14-ch. model after Sellas) has a low F and it's frequently used by Mellii, Zamboni and others. I have not seen up to now a piece in the italian baroque which uses a 15th ch. - many players even tune their 14th course at f-sharp (for easier continuo). Picinnini also uses the 14th course at times, but it looks to me as if he is sometimes indicating something other than F. Did they use re-entrant tuning on those bass courses? There is an indication after Gagliarda IX on pp.72-73 in Libro Primo, Bologna 1623 that the 14th course should be tuned to what looks like C#. Seems very unusual... David Rastall - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the Signing Bonus Sweepstakes -- Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
Re: MORE THAN 14 course German theorbo? BACH
Dear Michael all, I think it is wrong to assume that because BWV 995 calls for a low G, JSB must have had a 14 course lute in mind. I do not think it was a matter of practicality for JSB. He wrote pieces for other instruments as well that called for notes out of the tessitura. I think he wrote the piece in staff notation, with the lute in mind, not accounting for the tuning of the lowest possible note on the lute. I think the composition is based on an idea or an intention of the idea. Notice that the contemporary intabulation was unable to play the low G, had other solutions to the problem, often adding ornaments to cover up for the loss of the low tonic. In examining the contemporary intabulation, there are many, many areas that are different from what Bach wrote. I think that the intabulator merely thought it was great music ( indeed it is), adapted it for the lute, in a version that is more practical, or playable. Back in those times, people did not have the reverence that we have in our times for JSB. They were just compromising great music, to bring it into their particular style. Too often we judge these intabulations as being corrupt, when in actuality, they are bone fide works from the period, and they give us a clue as to what solutions they came up with. And after all, Falkenhagen was a professional, and I think he did us a great service to intabulate 995. In terms of Shouster, I seem to remember reading somewhere that he was a bookseller, who sold the books of Falkenhagen. Hence, the dedication of the copyist/intabulator [probably Falkenhagen] of BWV 995 to Mr. Schouster. ed He may have written it on the lautenwerke, but he intended it to be played on a lute, ( See autograph copy). I think it all points to Weyrauch (sp?) or Falkenhagen - or - and no one knows for sure on this - Schouster - a possible amateur lutenist? having ownership of a 14 course with that low Gg. Best regards, Michael.
Re: 14 course German theorbo? Three peg boxes?
Roman, Interesting. Is there any advantage in tuning this instrument over a swan neck? M. Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I note Bob Barto plays something like a three-pegbox swan neck theorbo lute. Is this a modern adaption or based on a historical - period instrument? http://polyhymnion.org/swv/vita.html RT - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the Signing Bonus Sweepstakes --
Re: MORE THAN 14 course German theorbo?
David Rastall at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Picinnini also uses the 14th course at times, but it looks to me as if he is sometimes indicating something other than F. Did they use re-entrant tuning on those bass courses? In a way. Piccinini's 14th course was tuned to the F# below the sixth-course G, i.e. a major seventh above the 13th course.
Re: Gerle
Jason: It is not Gerle. According to HM Brown (1549sub6), this is a revised reprint of Hans Newsidler's 1544 Das ander Buch (1544sub2). The instructions on playing the lute seem to have been expanded a bit, and the number of compositions included has been increased from 57 to 69. In fact, is seems quite a stretch to call it a revision, since only a few of the pieces are common to both books. The Laub refers to the printer: Zu Nurnberg trukts Jul. Paulus Fabritius Laub. durch verlegung Hansen Newsidlers Lutinisten. M.D.XLIX Regards, Daniel Heiman On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 20:41:58 -0500 Jason Kortis [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hello Rainer, I guess I do - while browsing my local music library's German lute music tablature books, I saw this one which is actually 3 in 1. Gerle is listed as the author in the library's catalogue. Below is a paste of the title- Ein Newes sehr kunstliches Lautenbuch Formschneider 1552 / Hans Gerle.Das ander Buch Laub 1549 ; Das dritt Buch Gunther 1544 / Hans Newsidler Best, Jason - Original Message - From: Rainer aus dem Spring [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 6:19 PM Subject: Re: Gerle Jason Kortis wrote: Hello everyone, Does anyone know where I might find some information about Gerle's Das ander Buch Laub 1549? Specifically, who are the composers and does the book contain reprints of earlier works? Best regards, Jason ??? Such a book does not exist. Do you mean Neusidler's book? The Laub doesn't make sense :) Rainer adS The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
