[LUTE] Re: My Lady Careys Dompe

[sterling price]

   Aurthur--
   Thanks for that info. I had seen the harpsichord version on Scribd, but
   no lute version there. O'dette's version is for 6 course lute and seems
   wonderfully complicated so I am hoping someone has it.
   Sterling
 __

   From: AJN 
   To: spiffys84...@yahoo.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 10:23 PM
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: My Lady Careys Dompe
   Hello Sterling,
   The harpsichord version is readily available as No. 103 in Apel and
   Davison, _**Historical Anthology of Music**_
   (the famous "HAM" to countless generations of music history students).
   Widely available in most libraries.
   Also see John Ward's article "The 'Dolfull Domps'" in _**JAMS**_ 4
   (1951): 111-21. Ward's description doesn't seem
   to meet the fresh character of the "Lady Carey's Dompe." Today we are
   familiar with a similar term, e.g., "I've been in
   the dumps all week."
   It's such a famous, attractive piece, surely there must be a tablature
   arrangement around somewhere. --ajn
   ===
   On 02/21/17, sterling price wrote:
   Hi all--
   I am looking for My Lady Careys Dompe as played by Paul O'Dette on the
   Royal Lewters cd. Gathering from the liner notes I think it is Paul's
   arrangement of the harpsichord version. Any ideas?
   Thanks--
   Sterling
   --
   To get on or off this list see list information at
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   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: My Lady Careys Dompe

[AJN]

Hello Sterling,

The harpsichord version is readily available as No. 103 in Apel and Davison, 
_**Historical Anthology of Music**_ 
(the famous "HAM" to countless generations of music history students). Widely 
available in most libraries.

Also see John Ward's article "The 'Dolfull Domps'" in _**JAMS**_ 4 (1951): 
111-21. Ward's description doesn't seem 
to meet the fresh character of the "Lady Carey's Dompe." Today we are familiar 
with a similar term, e.g., "I've been in 
the dumps all week." 

It's such a famous, attractive piece, surely there must be a tablature 
arrangement around somewhere. --ajn


===
On 02/21/17, sterling price wrote:

 Hi all--
 I am looking for My Lady Careys Dompe as played by Paul O'Dette on the
 Royal Lewters cd. Gathering from the liner notes I think it is Paul's
 arrangement of the harpsichord version. Any ideas?
 Thanks--
 Sterling

 --


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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: My Lady Careys Dompe

[LSA Lute Rental Program]

--94eb2c129292162977054916b8fc
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

See if these work for you.

Michael

Michael M. Grant, PhD
Director, Lute Rental Program
Member, Board of Directors

www.lutesocietyofamerica.org

On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 11:05 PM, sterling price <
spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:

> Hi all--
>I am looking for My Lady Careys Dompe as played by Paul O'Dette on the
>Royal Lewters cd. Gathering from the liner notes I think it is Paul's
>arrangement of the harpsichord version. Any ideas?
>Thanks--
>Sterling
>
>--
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

--94eb2c129292162977054916b8fc
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

See if these work for 
you.MichaelMichael M. 
Grant, PhDDirector, Lute Rental 
ProgramMember, Board of 
Directorshttps://docs.google.com/uc?id=0B9TJhsqVKmGMNWhuR19WWXJYQU0export=download;
 width="120" height="64">http://www.lutesocietyofamerica.org; 
target="_blank">www.lutesocietyofamerica.org
On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 11:05 PM, sterling price 
mailto:spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu; 
target="_blank">spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu 
wrote:    Hi all--
   I am looking for My Lady Careys Dompe as played by Paul ODette on 
the
   Royal Lewters cd. Gathering from the liner notes I think it is 
Pauls
   arrangement of the harpsichord version. Any ideas?
   Thanks--
   Sterling

   --


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html; 
rel="noreferrer" 
target="_blank">http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


--94eb2c129292162977054916b8fc--
--

[LUTE] My Lady Careys Dompe

[sterling price]

Hi all--
   I am looking for My Lady Careys Dompe as played by Paul O'Dette on the
   Royal Lewters cd. Gathering from the liner notes I think it is Paul's
   arrangement of the harpsichord version. Any ideas?
   Thanks--
   Sterling

   --


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: an impossible ornament

[jo.lued...@t-online.de]

Dear Rainer,

you're right: I didn't notice the dots. 

Joachim



-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: an impossible ornament
Datum: 2017-02-21T17:27:22+0100
Von: "Rainer" 
An: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 

On 21.02.2017 16:28, jo.lued...@t-online.de wrote:
> Dear Rainer,
>
> agreed, when we take the pinky for the fifth finger, but where's the problem 
> (unless one trie to play this on a 67 cm scale)?


Addendum: Bar 7 IS unplayable on a 67cm lute - at least for my hands.

Why doesn't he use the 7th course for the A?

Rainer



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[LUTE] Re: an impossible ornament

[Martin Shepherd]

Dear Rainer,

OK I'm  a fan of Occam's razor too.  But we can't do experiments on the 
past, the only evidence we have is what we have, and that is deeply 
unsatisfactory, I agree.


So according to the evidence, Vallet didn't notate vibrato before 1620 
because he didn't use it, then suddenly he started using it and 
therefore included it in his scores.
I think it's more likely that after the 1615/16 books, he realised that 
it would be possible to help his readers even more by giving a special 
sign showing where vibrato (already part of the repertory of ornaments 
for many years) was used.


The "hold marks" showing holding of bass notes (and others) are a 
feature of lute tablatures from Capirola to Galilei to Dowland and 
beyond, but what they usually show is the theoretical voice-leading, not 
the places where you can actually physically hold the notes in question 
(Capirola's signs are actually more subtle than that, but that's another 
story).  I can provide numerous examples of this if required.


Vibrato is discussed by many authors (Piccinini, Mersenne, Mace, 
Burwell) and most of them describe it as good but to be used in 
moderation, and being something of a relic of earlier times, when people 
used it too much.  When were those "earlier times"?  I suggest that 
there is evidence in the Board lute book (lachrimae, and the Almain by 
Robert Dowland) that Dowland may have used a cluster of little dots as a 
sign for vibrato.  This is not seen in any other lute manuscript, but do 
we think that Dowland never used vibrato except when he was teaching 
MB?  Very few English lute manscripts have any ornament signs at all - 
does that mean that the scribes of those manuscripts never used ornaments?


Given the apparent tendency of most lute composers to use open strings 
whenever possible, when you see a note played high on a lower course 
rather than in lower positions, you might suspect some kind of special 
effect, sometimes it might even be a vibrato.  I took the hint in my 
attempt at the "tremolo" fantasia 
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjY9wDOecwM).  There are notated 
examples in Barbe, for instance, at a time when (according to the 
sources) vibrato was somewhat out of favour check out "L'amant 
malheureux" by Gallot (Barbe, facsimile p.36-7).


OK, I'm going off to play a few (hypothetical) "tuts".

All the best,

Martin

On 21/02/2017 19:42, Rainer wrote:

Dear Martin,

???

So you say,

there is an undocumented and invisible ornament that cancels the 
meaning of the hold "slur" and indicates vibrato?


As evidence you offer a book published 5 years later and books by 
others - published later.


I would propose to apply Ockhams razor: this is an error.

Rainer

With large hands it can be played on a 59cm lute - if you use the 2nd 
finger instead of the 3rd.




On 21.02.2017 18:10, Martin Shepherd wrote:

Dear Rainer,

Bar 7 is unplayable on a lute of any size if you try to hold all the 
notes.  In fact I think it's likely that he intends a vibrato on the 
first note of the bar.  There are no signs for vibrato in this book, 
but there are in the 1620 book (Regia Pietas), and the vibrato sign 
associated with notes in high positions where we might have expected 
the same note(s) in a lower position.  Have a look at Psalm 135 on 
p.135.  Piccinini and M.Galilei do the same thing (without any signs).


Martin

On 21/02/2017 17:26, Rainer wrote:

On 21.02.2017 16:28, jo.lued...@t-online.de wrote:

Dear Rainer,

agreed, when we take the pinky for the fifth finger, but where's 
the problem (unless one trie to play this on a 67 cm scale)?



Addendum: Bar 7 IS unplayable on a 67cm lute - at least for my hands.

Why doesn't he use the 7th course for the A?

Rainer



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[LUTE] Re: an impossible ornament

[Rainer]

Dear Martin,

???

So you say,

there is an undocumented and invisible ornament that cancels the meaning of the hold 
"slur" and indicates vibrato?

As evidence you offer a book published 5 years later and books by others - 
published later.

I would propose to apply Ockhams razor: this is an error.

Rainer

With large hands it can be played on a 59cm lute - if you use the 2nd finger 
instead of the 3rd.



On 21.02.2017 18:10, Martin Shepherd wrote:

Dear Rainer,

Bar 7 is unplayable on a lute of any size if you try to hold all the notes.  In 
fact I think it's likely that he intends a vibrato on the first note of the 
bar.  There are no signs for vibrato in this book, but there are in the 1620 
book (Regia Pietas), and the vibrato sign associated with notes in high 
positions where we might have expected the same note(s) in a lower position.  
Have a look at Psalm 135 on p.135.  Piccinini and M.Galilei do the same thing 
(without any signs).

Martin

On 21/02/2017 17:26, Rainer wrote:

On 21.02.2017 16:28, jo.lued...@t-online.de wrote:

Dear Rainer,

agreed, when we take the pinky for the fifth finger, but where's the problem 
(unless one trie to play this on a 67 cm scale)?



Addendum: Bar 7 IS unplayable on a 67cm lute - at least for my hands.

Why doesn't he use the 7th course for the A?

Rainer



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html




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[LUTE] Re: an impossible ornament

[Martin Shepherd]

Dear Rainer,

Bar 7 is unplayable on a lute of any size if you try to hold all the 
notes.  In fact I think it's likely that he intends a vibrato on the 
first note of the bar.  There are no signs for vibrato in this book, but 
there are in the 1620 book (Regia Pietas), and the vibrato sign 
associated with notes in high positions where we might have expected the 
same note(s) in a lower position.  Have a look at Psalm 135 on p.135.  
Piccinini and M.Galilei do the same thing (without any signs).


Martin

On 21/02/2017 17:26, Rainer wrote:

On 21.02.2017 16:28, jo.lued...@t-online.de wrote:

Dear Rainer,

agreed, when we take the pinky for the fifth finger, but where's the 
problem (unless one trie to play this on a 67 cm scale)?



Addendum: Bar 7 IS unplayable on a 67cm lute - at least for my hands.

Why doesn't he use the 7th course for the A?

Rainer



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html




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[LUTE] Re: an impossible ornament

[Rainer]

On 21.02.2017 16:28, jo.lued...@t-online.de wrote:

Dear Rainer,

agreed, when we take the pinky for the fifth finger, but where's the problem 
(unless one trie to play this on a 67 cm scale)?



Addendum: Bar 7 IS unplayable on a 67cm lute - at least for my hands.

Why doesn't he use the 7th course for the A?

Rainer



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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: an impossible ornament

[Rainer]

To everybody: Please do not reply "to all" unless you have a good reason.


On 21.02.2017 16:28, jo.lued...@t-online.de wrote:

Dear Rainer,

agreed, when we take the pinky for the fifth finger, but where's the problem 
(unless one trie to play this on a 67 cm scale)?


The d on the 1st course has four dots, i.e. should be played with the 4th 
finger of the left hand.
The comma indicates a pull (is that the correct name for this ornament?) from f to d. See 
"Petit Discours".

Your turn :)

Rainer

PS

A clarification: Vallet is almost error-free.

PPS

I do play this on a 67cm 10c lute :)



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[LUTE] Re: an impossible ornament

[jo.lued...@t-online.de]

Dear Rainer,

agreed, when we take the pinky for the fifth finger, but where's the problem 
(unless one trie to play this on a 67 cm scale)?

Joachim


-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] an impossible ornament
Datum: 2017-02-21T16:06:35+0100
Von: "Rainer" 
An: "Lute net" 

This ornament has to be played with the fifth finger:

Vallet 1615, CNRS No. 65, page 161
   or
original source page 75

Bar 3.

Good luck :)

Rainer



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[LUTE] an impossible ornament

[Rainer]

This ornament has to be played with the fifth finger:

Vallet 1615, CNRS No. 65, page 161
  or
original source page 75

Bar 3.

Good luck :)

Rainer



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[LUTE] Re: More Vallet

[Matthew Daillie]

As I commented in my previous post, I don't consider this as an issue at 
all. Indeed it was also common practice in many French baroque 
tablatures to use lines to indicate the duration of open bass strings. I 
see them serving as a visual guide and a reminder to the player.


Best,
Matthew

On 21/02/2017 11:32, Rainer wrote:

As I already said, sometimes Vallet uses hold lines on empty strings.

Here is an example: In "La Courante Sarabande" (CNRS No. 74, page 177 
or original source page 83) in bar 21 (first bar in 3rd stave in the 
original) there is a hold line starting on the open 6th course.


I think it should start on the 3rd chord which has no hold line.

Rainer





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[LUTE] More Vallet

[Rainer]

As I already said, sometimes Vallet uses hold lines on empty strings.

Here is an example: In "La Courante Sarabande" (CNRS No. 74, page 177 or 
original source page 83) in bar 21 (first bar in 3rd stave in the original) there is a 
hold line starting on the open 6th course.

I think it should start on the 3rd chord which has no hold line.

Rainer



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