[LUTE] Re: F.W.Rust
Sorry for the delayed response. Alain was particularly interested in the sonata for viola and lute. [1]https://digital.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/werkansicht?PPN=PPN882226 452=PHYS_0001==overview-toc There is a modern edition from ca. 1930 and I expect to have a copy before too long. I can share it. As for the manuscript, the viola part is written in the alto clef. The mark on the left like a "3" marks off middle c. Thus the first notes are G above middle C, and in meas. 12 the parts are exchanged and the lute has the G melody. I'll get back to Mr. Sciurus and Friedrich Wilhelm Rust. --AJ N -Original Message- From: Alain Veylit To: Lute List Sent: Wed, Feb 13, 2019 1:07 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: F.W.Rust A belated thanks to Arthur for his information on F.W. Rust. I foolishly attempted a transcription of the C Major sonata for lute and viola in notation (see [2]https://digital.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/werkansicht?PPN=PPN882226 452=PHYS_0001=). It is quite challenging for a number of reasons: handwriting, notation shortcuts, unclear harmonies etc. Reconstituting the lute part is tricky. It looks to me that the bass clef has to be understood as being one octave down from what one might expect. Without that transposition, none of the lute's diapasons would be used... Transposing means some tricky arpeggios for the thumb all on diapasons. (see the first staff on the facsimile) Any advice on this issue? I strongly lean towards transposition, even though it does not resolve all the problems... Alain To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. https://digital.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/werkansicht?PPN=PPN882226452=PHYS_0001==overview-toc 2. https://digital.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/werkansicht?PPN=PPN882226452=PHYS_0001= 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: F.W.Rust
Rust 53: this is one butchered MS ... It makes Michael Jackson's plastic surgery look subtle ... or pointing a flame thrower at a birthday cake look like a good idea ... That the grand-son did not think about making a separate edited copy of the original manuscript rather than scribling over gran'pa's original work seems lazy at best, oedipian perhaps, barbaric definitely. Romantic? No... https://digital.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/werkansicht?PPN=PPN882314637=PHYS_0008=DMDLOG_0001 On 2/13/19 11:52 AM, Andreas Schlegel wrote: Thanks, Thomas, for this advice. But I didn’t made a transcription froThomas Schall m the C-major sonata for lute and viola. I made the reconstruction of the three sonatas which are transmitted in tablature - but be careful: D-B Rust 53 was changed probably by Wilhelm Rust. Read below: B) On Friedrich Wilhelm Rust The lute music of Friedrich Wilhelm Rust is preserved in two tablature sources: D-B Rust 53 and PL-Kj 40150 (formerly Berlin, intermediately at the storage site Fürstenstein). Rust 53 is characterized by a completely un-lutenistic style, and there are even unplayable passages in the music. A comparison with the lute parts of the Sonatas I and II, which are contained in PL-Kj 40150, was only possible after the manuscripts stored in Fürstenstein in WW2 had become available again in c. 1987. It then showed that the Sonatas in Rust 53 had undergone far-reaching arrangements introducing additional voices into the music which were written directly into the tablature. In 1988 Andreas Schlegel visited the Deutsche Staatsbibliothek in what was then still East Berlin (GDR) and examined the source in in detail, uncovering the original layer of the tablature. This allowed to see that the versions in PL-Kj 40150 were almost identical with the primary layers in Rust 53. The third Sona! ta which only survives in the arrangement in Rust 53 could now be reconstructed in its original form by applying the criteria arrived at while comparing the other compositions with the versions in PL-Kj 40150. The arrangements of the music in Rust 53 are probably connected to the “Rust affair”: Wilhelm Rust, Cantor at St Thomas in Leipzig and grandson of Friedrich Wilhelm Rust, wanted to let his grandfather appear as an predecessor of Beethoven. To that end he published editions of his grandfather’s compositions, which he had arranged and equipped with additional parts in the style of romantic music. As Rust was also the author of an article on lute tablature in an encyclopaedia, he might have felt the need to cover up the the differences between the original tablature and his edition of his grandfather’s sonatas. For a new edition and a recording of the music (see below), the original form of the violin part also had to be reconstructed, as Rust had arranged it too. The new edition consists therefore of music in a reconstructed original version and can thus not be understoot as a critical edition. Earlier editions based on Rust 53 (for example that of Neemann) should no! t be used anymore! Zur Neuausgabe der Sonaten für Laute und obligate Violine/Flöte von Friedrich Wilhelm Rust, in: Gitarre & Laute 6 (1989), pp. 41–47 (On the new edition of Friedrich Wilhelm Rust’s Sonatas for Lute and Violin/Flute obbligato) Friedrich Wilhelm Rust: Drei Sonaten für Laute und obligate Violine/Flöte, Menziken (The Lute Corner) 1998 (Three Sonatas for Lute and Violin/Flute obbligato) CD Friedrich Wilhelm Rust (1739–1769) & Bernhard Joachim Hagen (ca. 1720–1787): Sonaten für Laute und obligate Violine (Sonatas for Lute and Violin obbligato), together with Myrtha Indermaur (Violin), Menziken (The Lute Corner) 2006 The C-major sonata for lute & viola is indeed a riddle. Like Alain I’m convinced that it’s not written for a lute in d-minor-tuning because of some places which are not playable. But I worked on this sonata 30 years ago… All the best Andreas Am 13.02.2019 um 19:52 schrieb Thomas Schall : There is already a very well done adaption for the lute available (by Andi Schlegel) https://lutecorner.ch/ Bst wishes Thomas Am 13.02.2019 um 18:43 schrieb Alain Veylit: eing one octave down from what one might expect. Without that transposition, none of the lute's diapasons would be used... Transposing means some tricky arpeggios for the thumb To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Andreas Schlegel Eckstr. 6 CH-5737 Menziken Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07 Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63 lute.cor...@sunrise.ch
[LUTE] Re: F.W.Rust
Thank you Andreas for this information. For the curious: The Berlin Staats-Bibliothek has three digital copies of works by Rust available on line: [1]Rust, Friedrich Wilhelm - Tre Sonate per il Liuto con Violino obligato; lute, vl/fl, 1790, [Mus.ms.autogr. Rust, F. W. 53 N] [2]Rust, Friedrich Wilhelm - Sonata per il Liuto nel mese di Marzo 95; lute, vl; H-Dur; CzaR 100, 1795, [Mus.ms.autogr. Rust, F. W. 49 N] [3]Rust, Friedrich Wilhelm - Sonata p il Liuto con Acc: di Viola d'Alto; (lute, vla); C-Dur; CzaR 96, 1775, [Mus.ms.autogr. Rust, F. W. 21 N] A copy (from a microfilm) of PL Kj 40150 was posted on [4]http://www.lute.ru/manuscripts/Krakow%2040150%20%28rust%20sonata%29. pdf The rondo in PL Kj 40150 seems to require harmonics - not too common on the lute... There are strong similarities in notation/scribal styles between PL Kj 40150 and Rust 21: notation shortcuts, use of "bis" - even though one is in tablature and the other one in notation. Except perhaps for the arpeggios on the diapasons, Rust 21 would seem to fit a 13-course Baroque lute reasonably well if the bass clef is transposed down one octave. I need to check further... On 2/13/19 11:52 AM, Andreas Schlegel wrote: Thanks, Thomas, for this advice. But I didn't made a transcription from the C-ma jor sonata for lute and viola. I made the reconstruction of the three sonatas wh ich are transmitted in tablature - but be careful: D-B Rust 53 was changed proba bly by Wilhelm Rust. Read below: B) On Friedrich Wilhelm Rust The lute music of Friedrich Wilhelm Rust is preserved in two tablature sources: D-B Rust 53 and PL-Kj 40150 (formerly Berlin, intermediately at the storage site Fürstenstein). Rust 53 is characterized by a completely un-lutenistic style, an d there are even unplayable passages in the music. A comparison with the lute pa rts of the Sonatas I and II, which are contained in PL-Kj 40150, was only possib le after the manuscripts stored in Fürstenstein in WW2 had become available agai n in c. 1987. It then showed that the Sonatas in Rust 53 had undergone far-reach ing arrangements introducing additional voices into the music which were written directly into the tablature. In 1988 Andreas Schlegel visited the Deutsche Staa tsbibliothek in what was then still East Berlin (GDR) and examined the source in in detail, uncovering the original layer of the tablature. This allowed to see that the versions in PL-Kj 40150 were almost identical with the primary layers i n Rust 53. The third Sonata which only survives in the arrangement in Rust 53 co uld now be reconstructed in its original form by applying the criteria arrived a t while comparing the other compositions with the versions in PL-Kj 40150. The arrangements of the music in Rust 53 are probably connected to the "Rust aff air": Wilhelm Rust, Cantor at St Thomas in Leipzig and grandson of Friedrich Wil helm Rust, wanted to let his grandfather appear as an predecessor of Beethoven. To that end he published editions of his grandfather's compositions, which he ha d arranged and equipped with additional parts in the style of romantic music. As Rust was also the author of an article on lute tablature in an encyclopaedia, h e might have felt the need to cover up the the differences between the original tablature and his edition of his grandfather's sonatas. For a new edition and a recording of the music (see below), the original form of the violin part also ha d to be reconstructed, as Rust had arranged it too. The new edition consists the refore of music in a reconstructed original version and can thus not be understo ot as a critical edition. Earlier editions based on Rust 53 (for example that of Neemann) should not be used anymore! Zur Neuausgabe der Sonaten für Laute und obligate Violine/Flöte von Friedrich Wi lhelm Rust, in: Gitarre & Laute 6 (1989), pp. 41â47 (On the new edition of Fried rich Wilhelm Rust's Sonatas for Lute and Violin/Flute obbligato) Friedrich Wilhelm Rust: Drei Sonaten für Laute und obligate Violine/Flöte, Menzi ken (The Lute Corner) 1998 (Three Sonatas for Lute and Violin/Flute obbligato) CD Friedrich Wilhelm Rust (1739â1769) & Bernhard Joachim Hagen (ca. 1720â1787): Sonaten für Laute und obligate Violine (Sonatas for Lute and Violin obbligato), together with Myrtha Indermaur (Violin), Menziken (The Lute Corner) 2006 The C-major sonata for lute & viola is indeed a riddle. Like Alain I'm convinced that it's not written for a lute in d-minor-tuning because of some places which are not playable. But I worked on this sonata 30 years ago⦠All the best Andreas Am 13.02.2019 um 19:52 schrieb Thomas Schall [5]: There is already a very well done adaption for the lute available (by Andi Schle gel) [6]https://lutecorner.ch/ Bst wishes Thomas Am 13.02.2019 um 18:43 schrieb Alain Veylit: eing one octave down from what one might expect. Without that transposition, non e
[LUTE] Re: F.W.Rust
Thanks, Thomas, for this advice. But I didn’t made a transcription from the C-major sonata for lute and viola. I made the reconstruction of the three sonatas which are transmitted in tablature - but be careful: D-B Rust 53 was changed probably by Wilhelm Rust. Read below: B) On Friedrich Wilhelm Rust The lute music of Friedrich Wilhelm Rust is preserved in two tablature sources: D-B Rust 53 and PL-Kj 40150 (formerly Berlin, intermediately at the storage site Fürstenstein). Rust 53 is characterized by a completely un-lutenistic style, and there are even unplayable passages in the music. A comparison with the lute parts of the Sonatas I and II, which are contained in PL-Kj 40150, was only possible after the manuscripts stored in Fürstenstein in WW2 had become available again in c. 1987. It then showed that the Sonatas in Rust 53 had undergone far-reaching arrangements introducing additional voices into the music which were written directly into the tablature. In 1988 Andreas Schlegel visited the Deutsche Staatsbibliothek in what was then still East Berlin (GDR) and examined the source in in detail, uncovering the original layer of the tablature. This allowed to see that the versions in PL-Kj 40150 were almost identical with the primary layers in Rust 53. The third Sonata! which only survives in the arrangement in Rust 53 could now be reconstructed in its original form by applying the criteria arrived at while comparing the other compositions with the versions in PL-Kj 40150. The arrangements of the music in Rust 53 are probably connected to the “Rust affair”: Wilhelm Rust, Cantor at St Thomas in Leipzig and grandson of Friedrich Wilhelm Rust, wanted to let his grandfather appear as an predecessor of Beethoven. To that end he published editions of his grandfather’s compositions, which he had arranged and equipped with additional parts in the style of romantic music. As Rust was also the author of an article on lute tablature in an encyclopaedia, he might have felt the need to cover up the the differences between the original tablature and his edition of his grandfather’s sonatas. For a new edition and a recording of the music (see below), the original form of the violin part also had to be reconstructed, as Rust had arranged it too. The new edition consists therefore of music in a reconstructed original version and can thus not be understoot as a critical edition. Earlier editions based on Rust 53 (for example that of Neemann) should not ! be used anymore! Zur Neuausgabe der Sonaten für Laute und obligate Violine/Flöte von Friedrich Wilhelm Rust, in: Gitarre & Laute 6 (1989), pp. 41–47 (On the new edition of Friedrich Wilhelm Rust’s Sonatas for Lute and Violin/Flute obbligato) Friedrich Wilhelm Rust: Drei Sonaten für Laute und obligate Violine/Flöte, Menziken (The Lute Corner) 1998 (Three Sonatas for Lute and Violin/Flute obbligato) CD Friedrich Wilhelm Rust (1739–1769) & Bernhard Joachim Hagen (ca. 1720–1787): Sonaten für Laute und obligate Violine (Sonatas for Lute and Violin obbligato), together with Myrtha Indermaur (Violin), Menziken (The Lute Corner) 2006 The C-major sonata for lute & viola is indeed a riddle. Like Alain I’m convinced that it’s not written for a lute in d-minor-tuning because of some places which are not playable. But I worked on this sonata 30 years ago… All the best Andreas > Am 13.02.2019 um 19:52 schrieb Thomas Schall : > > There is already a very well done adaption for the lute available (by Andi > Schlegel) > https://lutecorner.ch/ > > Bst wishes > Thomas > > Am 13.02.2019 um 18:43 schrieb Alain Veylit: >> eing one octave down from what one might expect. Without that transposition, >> none of the lute's diapasons would be used... Transposing means some tricky >> arpeggios for the thumb > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Andreas Schlegel Eckstr. 6 CH-5737 Menziken Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07 Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63 lute.cor...@sunrise.ch
[LUTE] Re: F.W.Rust
There is already a very well done adaption for the lute available (by Andi Schlegel) https://lutecorner.ch/ Bst wishes Thomas Am 13.02.2019 um 18:43 schrieb Alain Veylit: eing one octave down from what one might expect. Without that transposition, none of the lute's diapasons would be used... Transposing means some tricky arpeggios for the thumb To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: F.W.Rust
A belated thanks to Arthur for his information on F.W. Rust. I foolishly attempted a transcription of the C Major sonata for lute and viola in notation (see https://digital.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/werkansicht?PPN=PPN882226452=PHYS_0001=). It is quite challenging for a number of reasons: handwriting, notation shortcuts, unclear harmonies etc. Reconstituting the lute part is tricky. It looks to me that the bass clef has to be understood as being one octave down from what one might expect. Without that transposition, none of the lute's diapasons would be used... Transposing means some tricky arpeggios for the thumb all on diapasons. (see the first staff on the facsimile) Any advice on this issue? I strongly lean towards transposition, even though it does not resolve all the problems... Alain To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
