RE: END-OF-FRAME, once again..

[Virgil Arrington]

> From: UD K
>  I think that your experience confirms my feeling that it shouldn't HAVE to 
> be that hard.

I agree; it shouldn’t be that hard. To me it would make sense to have the 
selection of the “Frame” environment automatically create a new slide without 
the need for a separate end of frame marker. However, I suppose there may be 
some folks who want to use the “Frame” environment for some content other than 
the Frame title. For them, we could have a “Frame-New-Slide” environment that 
would automatically create a new slide.

That’s the way it works in Markdown. Just put a heading hashtag # before your 
text and that line becomes the title of the new slide. Easy as pie.

Virgil
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Re: END-OF-FRAME, once again..

[UD K]

On 10/25/21 4:14 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote:


> *From: *UD K 
*> Sent: *Monday, October 25, 2021 6:39 AM
*> To: *lyx-users@lists.lyx.org 
*> Subject: *Re: END-OF-FRAME, once again..


> Since I am the one who started this END-OF-FRAME discussion because of
> my inability to do the simplest thing (adding a frame/slide where I
> wanted it), perhaps I should make my problem clearer than I managed to
> do initially.  Depending on where the cursor is in an existing
> presentation document, some commands are not shown in the menus, and
> some keyboard combinations are disabled or do nothing. Since I don''t
> use Lyx/Beamer often, I am hazy about what will work when the cursor is
> somewhere at the end of an existing frame, where I THINK it should be
> ready for a new frame or a frame terminator. If there was a way to 
force

> a frame terminator at the end of a frame, where it should not mess
> things up, it would make the occasional user less confused and 
frustrated.

>     I can't help but think, still, that this issue suggests that
> something pretty basic is wrong, if one of the most elementary
> operations is problematic.  Lyx's code is opaque to me, so I cannot 
make

> any useful suggestions, but perhaps, if the designers of the Beamer
> interface tried to understand the casual user's difficulties, some
> simplification could result, and everyone would be a little happier.

Like you, I was constantly frustrated by the seeming difficulty of 
inserting an end-of-frame marker to the end of a slide. I didn’t find 
it intuitive at all. However, after much use, it has now become second 
nature.


What I seemed to discover is that the secret (if that’s the right 
word) is to place the cursor at the bottom of the current frame in an 
**unnested** and content-free environment and then hit . It 
seems to work best if the unnested, empty environment is “standard,” 
but it also works for me if the environment is “itemize,” which it 
often is in my Beamer presentations. As I love keystroke combinations, 
after composing the last bullet point of a slide (“frame” in 
Beamer-speak), I hit  to obtain an empty environment. I then 
hit  as many times as necessary to remove any nesting. I 
then hit  and, voila, an end-of-frame marker appears.


Virgil


Virgil,
My experience was similar, but I had trouble detecting or deciphering 
what is the nature of the environment my cursor was in-- the screen did 
not magically change to green or somesuch safe color when the cursor 
entered the right environment, so I ended up hitting /enter/, /shift 
enter/, /control enter /etc. until somehow I got to the desired environment.
   I think that your experience confirms my feeling that it shouldn't 
HAVE to be that hard.  OTOH, Chinese, for me, is very difficult, because 
I don't know it, but 1.5 billion Chinese have no trouble with it, so if 
I knew Lyx/Beamer as well as they know Chinese, this thread would have 
never started.


EK


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 Charles University, Prague
 &
 the National Institute of Mental Health,
 Topolová 748, Klecany
 Czechia
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 Jules and Doris Stein Research to Prevent Blindness Professor
 Director, Center of Excellence for Computational & System Neuroscience,
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 Director, The laboratory of Visual & Computational Neuroscience
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RE: END-OF-FRAME, once again..

[Virgil Arrington]

> From: UD K
> Sent: Monday, October 25, 2021 6:39 AM
> To: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org
> Subject: Re: END-OF-FRAME, once again..

> Since I am the one who started this END-OF-FRAME discussion because of
> my inability to do the simplest thing (adding a frame/slide where I
> wanted it), perhaps I should make my problem clearer than I managed to
> do initially.  Depending on where the cursor is in an existing
> presentation document, some commands are not shown in the menus, and
> some keyboard combinations are disabled or do nothing. Since I don''t
> use Lyx/Beamer often, I am hazy about what will work when the cursor is
> somewhere at the end of an existing frame, where I THINK it should be
> ready for a new frame or a frame terminator. If there was a way to force
> a frame terminator at the end of a frame, where it should not mess
> things up, it would make the occasional user less confused and frustrated.
> I can't help but think, still, that this issue suggests that
> something pretty basic is wrong, if one of the most elementary
> operations is problematic.  Lyx's code is opaque to me, so I cannot make
> any useful suggestions, but perhaps, if the designers of the Beamer
> interface tried to understand the casual user's difficulties, some
> simplification could result, and everyone would be a little happier.

Like you, I was constantly frustrated by the seeming difficulty of inserting an 
end-of-frame marker to the end of a slide. I didn’t find it intuitive at all. 
However, after much use, it has now become second nature.

What I seemed to discover is that the secret (if that’s the right word) is to 
place the cursor at the bottom of the current frame in an *unnested* and 
content-free environment and then hit . It seems to work best if the 
unnested, empty environment is “standard,” but it also works for me if the 
environment is “itemize,” which it often is in my Beamer presentations. As I 
love keystroke combinations, after composing the last bullet point of a slide 
(“frame” in Beamer-speak), I hit  to obtain an empty environment. I then 
hit  as many times as necessary to remove any nesting. I then hit 
 and, voila, an end-of-frame marker appears.

Virgil



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Re: outline pane issues and huge note slowness

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 22/10/2021 à 01:59, V K a écrit :

I updated master first of all and huge insets can be scrolled. Very slowly, but 
this is better than it was on two months old master when insets were stalled 
mostly. That is without breakrows branch.


Good. Did you configure with "--enable-build-type=prof" ? This is 
important because by default master will compile with some run-time 
checks that lower the performance.



"git pull features breakrows"
After that I compiled Lyx with autogen etc.




Hugenotes are slow, similar to master, maybe a tad better. And I doubt – maybe 
it is master without breakrows branch. I don't see anything about that branch 
in Lyx info. Version info:


If it is the breakrow branch, then "git log" will start like:

commit 5f33a0ea1971e924c4959b9a003ed548871153ab (HEAD -> breakrows, 
features/breakrows)

Author: Jean-Marc Lasgouttes 
Date:   Tue Oct 12 11:33:23 2021 +0200

One less thing to do in PAINTING_ANALYSIS


It is disappointing that the situation is not better. However, I am not 
able to reproduce you problem on my system, and I do not understand why. 
My core i7 7700T is not fundamentally faster than your core i7 6600U.


If you have some more time, we can try to find out why it is not that 
fast. To do that, the idea would be to run a profiler like hotspot. Do 
you have any experience with that?


Unfortunately, I did not find a way to let you send me the full profiler 
data, since it depends of the precise version of all the components of 
your system.


JMarc
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Re: END-OF-FRAME, once again..

[UD K]

On 10/20/21 1:35 PM, Daniel wrote:

On 19/10/2021 16:29, Scott Kostyshak wrote:

On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 03:14:48PM +0200, Daniel wrote:

On 13/10/2021 16:50, Scott Kostyshak wrote:

On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 12:13:30PM +0200, Daniel wrote:
Something that I thought while using beamer with LyX was that it 
seems that
it would be easier if Frames would not "hang together". I mean: 
right now,
if you press enter at the end or beginning of a frame, you get a 
new line
that is extending the same frame. Wouldn't it be easier if you get 
a new
frame this way and instead would just nest stuff in order to get 
it onto a
specific frame? So, no need for separators either. There may be 
issues with
this suggestion that I have not thought careful enough about but 
on the face

of it, it seems like a good idea to me and to solve the issues you
mentioned. What do you think?


I think the workflow you're suggesting makes the not-always-true 
assumption that the user does not use the "frame" layout for the 
*content* of the frame, and only uses nested layouts (e.g., itemize 
or standard). Did I understand right?


Yes. It is not a conservative approach. It suggest to not use the frame
layout for the content because, if I see it correctly, this can be 
equally
achieved by using a nested standard layout. So, why not have just 
one way of

doing things. And it seems to me more consistent in that, say, itemized
lists have to be nested as well within a frame which makes them 
appear at
another level than the content of the frame when not nested but they 
are

not. Isn't that a bit strange or misleading?

Instead, everything will have to be nested if it should go on a 
frame. (Of
course there must be a lyx2lyx mechanism to transfer old beamer 
documents to

the new "nesting-style".)

The workflow would in the new style would be like this:

1. Select the Frame layout to create a new frame.
2. Press enter which creates a nested Standard paragraph to add 
content.
3. Press enter twice to un-nest and get a Frame layout which starts 
a new

frame.

Doesn't this appear more simple and intuitive?


It does. I think it is a reasonable proposal. I'm just not sure 
everyone will agree. For example, our own beamer example uses the 
frame layout for content.


What abut making it so that if the user changes the layout to 
"frame title", then a *new* frame is started (i.e., LyX realizes 
"oh this frame already has a frame title so the user must want a 
new frame)?


I still tend to prefer the way I suggested because of its simplicity
(especially for new users or people who use, say, beamer not 
frequently)

unless it has some flaw I missed.


Perhaps we can start by writing some use cases that are currently 
annoying with the current interface. Then we can propose different 
interfaces to make those workflows easier. I think your proposal is a 
reasonable one, but I'm not sure it's the only one. Also, I'm 
hesitant to start this conversation since I would really want to see 
Jürgen's thoughts and I don't think he has much time these days.


The main confusion I see is that I think users would like one key 
combination that always produces a new frame. Currently, the user has 
to think whether to do "Alt + P, return" or "Alt + P, shift + 
return", depending on what nesting level they are currently at. Do 
you agree this is the main problem that your proposal and my proposal 
were both trying to solve? Is there any other big issue with the 
current workflow?


For me the key combinations is already where it starts. I don't use 
any. I mean, I use the standard ones that work in every application 
(copy, paste, cut, select all, etc.) But apart from that I never got 
the hang of learning or using any key combinations specific to some 
application. I am very much a toolbar and menu guy. In turn, I really 
appreciate when I have to use these as seldom as possible. Hence my 
urge to have as many features work with just pressing some obvious 
keys such as the enter key (several times if need be). But I tend to 
think I am not the only person who works that way and so far I found 
professional applications to respect this preference quite well.


Daniel

Since I am the one who started this END-OF-FRAME discussion because of 
my inability to do the simplest thing (adding a frame/slide where I 
wanted it), perhaps I should make my problem clearer than I managed to 
do initially.  Depending on where the cursor is in an existing 
presentation document, some commands are not shown in the menus, and 
some keyboard combinations are disabled or do nothing. Since I don''t 
use Lyx/Beamer often, I am hazy about what will work when the cursor is 
somewhere at the end of an existing frame, where I THINK it should be 
ready for a new frame or a frame terminator. If there was a way to force 
a frame terminator at the end of a frame, where it should not mess 
things up, it would make the occasional user less confused and frustrated.
   I can't help but think,