Re: [Marxism] victims of Trumpette violence?

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

On 3/15/2016 10:51 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote:
Nonsense. I can recognize when people are repeating themselves. If 
there is anything I have learned after moderating Marxmail for 18 
years on May first, it is that. 
You certainly do. Every time you write a blog you post it here twice, 
once in rich html format, only you can post rich format to Marxmail, and 
once in plain text, like the rest of us. But that doesn't bother me. 
People repeat themselves all the time on Marxmail and you rarely point 
it out. I think Manuel was right that you chimed in with that critique 
this time to shutdown a thread in which there was apparently great 
interest because it enjoyed something like 20 contributions before your 
dismissive one word contribution signaling that it should end.


In point of fact, I think you and Kevin were wrong. I may have repeated 
my assertion that Trump setup the confrontation in the face of charges 
that I was bashing the protesters, but the subject of both paragraphs in 
that post was localism - and that certainly wasn't repetitive in this 
discussion, it was taking it in a new direction.


So I think Manuel was right that it was an example of while chauvinism 
and a rather crass effort to shut down this thread.  That bothers me.


But what really bothers me the most is that you have dismissed Manuel's 
extremely important point 'about the "Whiteness" of these kinds of 
discussions' by calling it "Nonsense."


Given our position in the class structure and our relationship to 
imperialism as national minorities, its not surprising to find that 
people of color are, on the whole, more class conscious and more in 
favor of progressive revolutionary change than their white brothers and 
sisters. That's just they way it is in my experience. By the same token, 
one should expect us to be over represented, as compared to our 
percentage in the population, in Left organizations.


Clearly we are not, but I predict there will never be a revolution in 
the US until we are.


And why is the Left in this country so dominated by white activists that 
it can be fairly called the white Left? The answer is white chauvinism 
in the Left. Now someone dares to raise this issue on this list and your 
response is "Nonsense?"


Houston, we have a problem here.

_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] victims of Trumpette violence?

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

On 3/15/2016 8:55 AM, Kevin Lindemann and Cathy Campo via Marxism wrote:

Clay Claiborne wrote:


and it has worked out pretty much
the way he planned it.
The full sentence was "My thesis is simply that Trump set this situation 
up and it has worked out pretty much the way he planned it." This was 
responses to interpretations that accused me of bashing the protesters 
and other strange extrapolations from my simple argument. Kevin used a 
fragment so he could ignore the context, so that he could declare me 
repetitive, so Louis could agree, so they could end this thread ahead of 
a response to my question to Manuel designed to get deeper into the role 
race is playing in this discussion. Thank you Manuel for objecting to 
ending this discussion now in the name of Repetitiveness. I didn't raise 
a new point about localism in that same email, but I did repeat 
something, so let's jump on that.
Actually, I should walk my setup theory back a bit in light of what I 
discovered about St. Louis. In an effort to better determine Trump's 
motives for cancelling the Chicago rally I took a look at what he did 
earlier that day, and I discovered,
1) It was held at a similar DT location as the Chicago rally - at the 
Peabody Center not that far from MLK Jr. Blvd. This undermines my theory 
that he choose UIC expressly for the purpose of causing the confrontation.


2) While the St. Louis protest didn't receive the same attention as 
Chicago, it was actually quite effective and may have been what caused 
Trump to cancel Chicago. This is a good piece on St. L:

http://www.thenation.com/article/why-the-trump-rally-in-st-louis-was-so-different/
It gives us this description of the St. Louis rally:


In this climate, honed by 17 months of protests since the killing of 
Mike Brown, Trump never got more than a few minutes to speak without 
interruption. The disruptions were constant. As the protesters were 
ejected from the building, they were greeted by a mixture of boos and 
cheers in the street. At last count, 32 were arrested. All protesters.


While people around the world have been inspired by Ferguson, many 
white St. Louisans felt differently. 
 



St. Louis proved to be tough for the Donald. He grew more and more 
testy as his rambling speech went on. Trump yearned for the good old 
days when protesters could be roughed up, stated police should be 
tougher and less “politically correct,” and blamed protesters for the 
decline of America.


Trump left St. Louis a weakened man, like a fighter who endured a lot 
of punishment in the early rounds. Chicago was the next stop. 
Thousands showed up to protest Trump at the UIC-Pavilion, and in the 
end Trump tapped out and refused to speak. Trump submitted to the 
protesters in Chicago in the way that Conor McGregor tapped to the 
rear-naked choke of Nate Diaz just days earlier.


This was at noon so we have to ask why he didn't cancel the Chicago 
rally before the arena filled up if he didn't want a confrontation,

Repeating that assertion doesn't prove it.
Doesn't make it any less true does it? and if repeating assertions is a 
crime on Marxmail, I am not guilty alone, why is it being said in this case?

  In a previous post, you wrote, "I will wait until after Tuesday before I render a 
verdict on [the protest's] effectiveness." What happened to that approach?
You are confusing two separate things 1) I said Trump setup the protest 
- I used the example of setting up an a bush.
2) I said that the protesters rode into an ambush but I will reserve my 
verdict on the effectiveness of their "riding into an ambush" until the 
outcome of the immediate battle - the vote in IL today. I never said I 
was withholding my verdict as to whether it was an ambush until the 
outcome of the vote.


Where's the confusion? You wish to end on this note and treat me like 
I'm not making sense?


Well, do what you will. My weekend is over. I go back to work in 10 minutes.

Clay

_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] victims of Trumpette violence?

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

On 3/15/16 1:15 PM, Manuel Barrera wrote:

However, I am forced to come to Clay's defense because of the utter
dismissive, thoroughly privileged, "entitled" attitude that "repetitive"
and "yup" so drippingly convey.


Nonsense. I can recognize when people are repeating themselves. If there 
is anything I have learned after moderating Marxmail for 18 years on May 
first, it is that.

_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] victims of Trumpette violence?

[Manuel Barrera via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*


Cathy Campo via Marxism wrote: > I fear this thread is becoming repetitive.
Louis:  Yup.

These two replies are exactly why Clay (and I) often comment about the 
"Whiteness" of these kinds of discussions. How dare someone like Clay press a 
point when he is challenged and how convenient it becomes for White radicals to 
judge such responses as "repetitive" and others assenting so as, essentially, 
to signal "they" have ended the conversation for us. I was about to reply to 
Clay for what i believe were his mistaken views on issues of "localism" and the 
perception that he is being challenged because he has nothing to say if he 
isn't "there". However, the discussion is considered ended because it is 
"repetitive", which to any activist of color engaged in numerous political 
debates has always meant that "our" desire to engage in debate is subject to 
dismissal at the behest of Whites who simply don't to hear what we have to say 
or consider a contrary view: especially from people of color or women. 
I do not even agree with Clay  on the issues in this thread, but not because I 
believe that his method--to disagree by metaphor or short commentary indicating 
a point of view--is "repetitive" or otherwise exhausting the conversation. I 
have more in common with Cathy's and Kevin's (glad to see that the last message 
from Cathy was in her own voice rather than as a "couple"). However, I am 
forced to come to Clay's defense because of the utter dismissive, thoroughly 
privileged, "entitled" attitude that "repetitive" and "yup" so drippingly 
convey.
End Of Line   
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] victims of Trumpette violence?

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

On 3/15/16 11:55 AM, Kevin Lindemann and Cathy Campo via Marxism wrote:

I fear this thread is becoming repetitive.


Yup.
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] victims of Trumpette violence?

[Kevin Lindemann and Cathy Campo via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

Clay Claiborne wrote:

> and it has worked out pretty much 
> the way he planned it.

Repeating that assertion doesn't prove it. In a previous post, you wrote, "I 
will wait until after Tuesday before I render a verdict on [the protest's] 
effectiveness." What happened to that approach?

> What did you think about the comments 
> to [the "How to Stop Trump"] article?

I do not think they are a good measure of the protest's effectiveness.

> It would seem that I'm only qualified to speak
> about matters in Venice, CA.

No, but it is somewhat presumptuous of you to make confident assertions about 
the dynamic between experienced organizers and new activists in Chicago. 
Marilyn Katz has first-hand knowledge of it; Joe Iosbaker has first-hand 
knowledge of it; you don't. 

I fear this thread is becoming repetitive.

--Kevin Lindemann
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] victims of Trumpette violence?

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

My thesis is simply that Trump set this situation up and it has worked out
pretty much the way he planned it. If you want to celebrated that as a
victory for the Left, so be it, but I don't have be in Chicago now to see
that.

The "localism" of your statement is staggering. I have, in my time, been
told that I should not have an opinion about the war in Vietnam, the war in
Iraq, the war in Syria, the murder in Ferguson and now a protest in Chicago
because I don't live there. It would seem that I'm only qualified to speak
about matters in Venice, CA.


Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 


On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 7:30 PM, Kevin Lindemann and Cathy Campo via
Marxism  wrote:

>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
> #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
> #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
> *
>
> > I was in Chicago for the 1968 DNC and
> > organizing on the Southside in the early 70's before Obama
> > so I know a little about Northern Illinois
>
> It is astonishing that people who do not live in Chicago--and people who
> have not lived in Chicago for 40 years or more--are confident that they
> know enough about the state of the movement in Chicago to second guess the
> actions of Chicago activists, young and old, experienced and inexperienced.
> The presumptuousness of that is staggering.
>
> --Kevin Lindemann
> _
> Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
> Set your options at:
> http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/clayclai%40gmail.com
>
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] victims of Trumpette violence?

[Kevin Lindemann and Cathy Campo via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

> I was in Chicago for the 1968 DNC and 
> organizing on the Southside in the early 70's before Obama
> so I know a little about Northern Illinois

It is astonishing that people who do not live in Chicago--and people who have 
not lived in Chicago for 40 years or more--are confident that they know enough 
about the state of the movement in Chicago to second guess the actions of 
Chicago activists, young and old, experienced and inexperienced. The 
presumptuousness of that is staggering.

--Kevin Lindemann
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] victims of Trumpette violence?

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

On 3/14/2016 9:13 AM, Manuel Barrera via Marxism wrote:

In reply to Clayborne and others who seem to think they "know" what and how Black and 
Brown youth "should" be doing
Manuel, I wondered why you felt the need to bring race in at this point 
and speak only of a section of the protesters? I did point out that UIC 
was 46% white and I suspect Trump's complaints about "Bernie supporters" 
is code for white protesters. The others are "thugs" in his terminology. 
I said they were all setup but you defended only a part.


In an unrelated note, I should point out that you miss-spelled my name. 
Purely accidental I'm sure but it the past miss-spelling my name or 
refusing to capitalize it has been used as a kind of attack. Other 
minorities have related similar experiences to me. Obviously not the 
issue in this case or many others but I thought you should be aware.


_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] victims of Trumpette violence?

[Manuel Barrera via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

Right we don't want to be tailists, Clay, and that is all that was said.
My original point: Young activists taking on the racism of Trump are unlikely 
to listen to someone telling them they are wrong for engaging people like Trump 
because you don't think they have adequate "leadership". We can argue about 
what Trump was intending as some conspiracy theory, a "setup" that activists 
got fooled into or we can recognize that these actions were a significant event 
that require our support. I prefer not to delve into Trump's mind and 
motivations. It's really irrelevant.
 
> Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 14:34:52 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Marxism] victims of Trumpette violence?
> From: marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu
> To: mtom...@hotmail.com
> 
>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
> #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
> #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
> *
> 
> On 3/14/2016 9:13 AM, Manuel Barrera via Marxism wrote:
> > if y'all have a better way, get out and help them do it! Or just shut up 
> > and be grateful that Chi-Town, Kansas City, and I really hope other cities 
> > still have the courage and fight in them.   
> > 
> Why do I call it tailism? Let me count the ways: 1) If you're not in the 
> streets, you're not in the struggle 2) If you're not in the streets you 
> have no right to speak 3) if you're not in the streets its obviously 
> because you lack courage 4) if you're not in the streets you should just 
> cheer on those who are or shut up.
> _
> Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
> Set your options at: 
> http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/mtomas3%40hotmail.com
  
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] victims of Trumpette violence?

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

On 3/14/2016 9:13 AM, Manuel Barrera via Marxism wrote:

if y'all have a better way, get out and help them do it! Or just shut up and be 
grateful that Chi-Town, Kansas City, and I really hope other cities still have 
the courage and fight in them.   
Why do I call it tailism? Let me count the ways: 1) If you're not in the 
streets, you're not in the struggle 2) If you're not in the streets you 
have no right to speak 3) if you're not in the streets its obviously 
because you lack courage 4) if you're not in the streets you should just 
cheer on those who are or shut up.

_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] victims of Trumpette violence?

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

On 3/13/2016 9:49 PM, Ken Hiebert via Marxism wrote:

We should not expect the younger activists to listen to us unless they see us 
as fellow fighters, as people on their side.
Standing with them on the street, we may get a hearing for our views.

And maybe not even then.

My own experiences both as a young activist @ Pentagon '67 and an old 
activist @ OLA '11 is that many young activists will largely discount 
the advice of old people, even activists, in any case. Of course they 
are wrong to do so but they are young. This will be all the more the 
case if we are not providing, or even attempting to provide leadership 
but instead tailing behind their "leadership" and merely cheering them on.


So, I don't know what requirements young activists should have for 
listening to those with more experience but I don't think it should be 
limited to those who already support their specific tactics. Even if 
that is the case, I think we would be tailing behind to endorse that. 
And in that regard, I would like to take special exception to your last 
sentence above and explain why the requirement to be "Standing with them 
on the street." to get a hearing really rubs me the wrong way.


It has to do with Occupy LA. Occupy LA was rather unique among the big 
city occupations in that the city conceded to us the legal right to 
occupy city hall park - city council passed a resolution 2 weeks into 
the occupation. I have written about this in great detail on my blog, 
the DailyKos and WL Central. As a result the infamous LAPD was on their 
very best behavior.


This "peaceful" co-existence was allowing us to build an extremely broad 
and stable occupation - before things turned we had 300-400 tents all 
around city hall and regular protests of 10K-15K, even middle class 
older whites, people you might today see at Trump rallies, were starting 
to show up with their tents and sleeping bags.


From the POV of this old activist this "legal" occupation [full 
discourse - I helped engineer it the evening before day 1 and joined the 
OLA city liaison team in its final days in an effort to extend it.] was 
paying big dividends for the movement both locally and nationally.


Of course, not everybody saw it that way. In particular there was a 
group of young activists, anarchists some of them, that wanted what 
Oakland had. They wanted confrontation with the police and they actively 
worked to undermine the peace with the police. They were 
opportunistically joined and supported by "Marxists" from the PSL and 
WPP that came to the occupation late and were looking for a way in. 
Eventually they got their way, but that's a longer story. Anyway back to 
this line  "Standing with them on the street."


We had many marches during the 60+ days of the occupation, more than 1 a 
day, some were huge and filled the streets others were smaller, and 
permit of not, the LAPD was cooperating. If we had a lot of people they 
would block the streets, if we had not so many, they would ask us to 
confine it to the sidewalks. But no matter what, there would be this 
small anarchist/ulta-left "streets belong to the people" group that 
wanted confrontation with the police. Even if we only had a hundred 
people, they would still try to march in the streets.


We are bring families with strollers out to march against the big banks 
and the 1% for the first time and these youth wearing black bandana want 
to get their rocks off by street fighting with the police and for sure 
they don't want to hear from anyone not already "Standing with them on 
the street." Just sad to see that backwardness endorsed on a Marxist list.

_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] victims of Trumpette violence?

[Andrew Pollack via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

All this demagogy about old white men telling young people of color not to
confront fascists is simply a lie. Clay and I among others have made clear
it's a question of how and where to confront them (and that we personally
HAVE confronted racists and fascists. We NEVER said 5 miles away, Einde.
It's a question of do you fight them inside their meetings, or instead
outside our institutions, meeting places, picket lines, etc., when they
attack. If any of you would read the documents I've posted here and on
facebook you'll see I'm promoting a proud heritage of beating fascists
until they're in the hospital and their ranks drift away out of fear. Being
able to do so means not friterring away your advantage in propaganda stance
and personnel in adventurist stupidities.
And I guarantee you half of those saying Trump must be denied a platform
will be backing Clinton soon.


On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 1:25 PM, Einde O'Callaghan via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
> #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
> #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
> *
>
> On 14.03.2016 17:13, Manuel Barrera via Marxism wrote:
>
>> In reply to Clayborne and others who seem to think they "know" what and
>> how Black and Brown youth "should" be doing about this racist Trump
>> campaign (from my reply to Partido on Facebook):
>>
>> The Marxmail discussion is an exercise in theoretical posturing:
>> essentially, old people telling young people that they should've had more
>> "leadership" and, then from there, nothing. The implication is that somehow
>> the young black and brown activists along with the well-established
>> coalition-building left in Chicago should have not fallen into a trap
>>
> The debates here are nothing new. I remember hearing arguments like this
> before from "older" or "more experienced" "activists" when we were
> campaigning against the National Front in Britain in the mid-1970s. Both
> before and after we - then young activists (brought together to a certain
> extent by the British SWP) - confronted and stopped the NF in Lewisham, we
> were denounced for being "red fascists" and "thoughtless street fighters"
> by many (not all) left Labourists and the Communist Party. We should have
> shown our disgust by meeting 5 miles away and marching in the otehr
> direction. Instead we confronted them and stopped them. After that, partly
> through the Anti-Nazi League we built on a combination of mass
> mobilisations (and sometimes militant confrontations) and mass agitation
> and education. And we eventually killed the NF stone dead.
>
> If we'd listened to the "experienced old hands", we wouldn't have done it
> and the far right would have established much deeper roots in British
> society than they've been able to do since.
>
> What I hear are tired old men preaching what is essentially pacifist
> reformism from the sidelines. I can only say that I was thrilled to see
> what the young (and not so young) comrades pulled off in Chicago.
>
> Einde O'Callaghan
>
> _
> Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
> Set your options at:
> http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/acpollack2%40gmail.com
>
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] victims of Trumpette violence?

[Einde O'Callaghan via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

On 14.03.2016 17:13, Manuel Barrera via Marxism wrote:

In reply to Clayborne and others who seem to think they "know" what and how Black and 
Brown youth "should" be doing about this racist Trump campaign (from my reply to Partido 
on Facebook):

The Marxmail discussion is an exercise in theoretical posturing: essentially, old people 
telling young people that they should've had more "leadership" and, then from 
there, nothing. The implication is that somehow the young black and brown activists along 
with the well-established coalition-building left in Chicago should have not fallen into 
a trap
The debates here are nothing new. I remember hearing arguments like this 
before from "older" or "more experienced" "activists" when we were 
campaigning against the National Front in Britain in the mid-1970s. Both 
before and after we - then young activists (brought together to a 
certain extent by the British SWP) - confronted and stopped the NF in 
Lewisham, we were denounced for being "red fascists" and "thoughtless 
street fighters" by many (not all) left Labourists and the Communist 
Party. We should have shown our disgust by meeting 5 miles away and 
marching in the otehr direction. Instead we confronted them and stopped 
them. After that, partly through the Anti-Nazi League we built on a 
combination of mass mobilisations (and sometimes militant 
confrontations) and mass agitation and education. And we eventually 
killed the NF stone dead.


If we'd listened to the "experienced old hands", we wouldn't have done 
it and the far right would have established much deeper roots in British 
society than they've been able to do since.


What I hear are tired old men preaching what is essentially pacifist 
reformism from the sidelines. I can only say that I was thrilled to see 
what the young (and not so young) comrades pulled off in Chicago.


Einde O'Callaghan
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] victims of Trumpette violence?

[Mark Lause via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

Mass actions that are not well-organized always carry risks.  The task here
is to find ways to organize them and make them coherent.

Depending on where we are, we've seen these problems with Occupy and BLM
(and with the Greens, who function coherently slightly less well than a
herd of cats).  The challenge here is to bring some experience to bear in
organizing.

Some of you know how to do these things.  :-)

ML
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

[Marxism] victims of Trumpette violence?

[Ken Hiebert via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

Manuel Barrera said:

In reply to Clayborne and others who seem to think they "know" what and how 
Black and Brown youth "should" be doing about this racist Trump campaign (from 
my reply to Partido on Facebook):

The Marxmail discussion is an exercise in theoretical posturing: essentially, 
old people telling young people that they should've had more "leadership" and, 
then from there, nothing. The implication is that somehow the young black and 
brown activists along with the well-established coalition-building left in 
Chicago should have not fallen into a trap (right, no real strategy about what 
do next, just don't fall into a trap, as if the trap of supporting Sanders 
weren't already a big one). I doubt Trump is all that Machiavellian or even 
conscious, but assuming he is, what exactly do "we" think Black and Brown youth 
should have done instead than respond with mass action?! Politely seek a 
"dialogue"? What is happening now in response to Trump's racist tirades is 
young people refusing to be silent. Period. Would there have been a 
"leadership" (apparently according to some on Marxmail, that seems to mean 
them) to be more "strategic" about it begs credulity and, moreso guts to have 
engaged "
 silent protest". Trump may not be as serious about his racism, but his 
followers, mostly frustrated White people fearing the end of their privilege in 
the world, seem very serious in promoting racial hatred and xenophobia. Do you 
really believe it best to follow King's passivity as a strategy over Malcolm's 
regarding organized self-defense? At a time when Trump promotes the beating of 
people of color at his rallies? What exactly do you think should be enough to 
begin mounting a defense and POLITICAL ACTION to counter this rather overt 
racist threat? I have called for every living democrat--inside, outside, and 
opposition to the Democratic and Republican parties--to stand up and come to 
the defense of the right to protest Trump's racist, xenophobic calls to begin 
what amounts to Apartheid for Muslims and Brown people as well as the continued 
repression of the Black community. We should support Sanders' rallies from 
being disrupted by the racist Trump followers even as we may oppose S
 anders' candidacy. We should participate in !
 the mass actions organized against Trump's rallies so that our experience can 
be heard and a movement can truly emerge from this otherwise spectator sport 
called the bourgeois elections. 
Maybe this Trump threat will come to nothing. But do we really wish to exhort 
young people for their "exuberance" while just standing on the sidelines 
bemoaning how "wrong" they are?

My time may be past to lead this charge, but I will be damned if I criticize 
these brave fighters for doing what they believe must be done and what we KNOW 
has to be prepared. In other words, if y'all have a better way, get out and 
help them do it! Or just shut up and be grateful that Chi-Town, Kansas City, 
and I really hope other cit

Ken Hiebert:
The debate as I understand it is not for or against mass action, but whether 
mass action should include going Trump's rallies to disrupt them.
Perhaps there are some who are against even demonstrating, but i can't think of 
anyone in this discussion who has argued that view.

I want to agree with two things in your last paragraph.  These are brave 
fighters and we should get out and help them do it.
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] victims of Trumpette violence?

[Jeffrey Masko via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

Part of my PhD work is on the ideological work of representations of the
rural WWCPC (white working class and poverty class) in film and television
and I find this to overwhelming true. The fact that the Left as represented
by some on this listserv have rarely supported this sector and in fact
continue to demonize and scapegoat them as rural hicks and rednecks has a
long classist history connected to the idea of white trash, or working
class whiteness. When the left refuses to hear these voices, expect them to
turn to someone who will. In this case Trump.

I am not surprised that this type of analysis is not getting much attention
and will not be surprised if no-one addresses your comment. I just
appreciated seeing it there and I'm too involved in writing my dissertation
to defend about why calling out "white trash" is ultimately
counterproductive and in fact, is a missed opportunity in gaining support
from all sectors of the working class. Thanks for your post.

-jeffrey

On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 4:23 AM, Greg McDonald via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
> #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
> #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
> *
>
> I honestly do not think the Trump campaign engineered the confrontation in
> Chicago. Now, if Juan Cole's analysis is correct--that Trump supporters are
> all Klan and biker gang wannabe's, then perhaps. But if we look at Thomas
> Frank's analysis, the primary concern of the white working class voters who
> support Trump is the economy. I'm pretty sure that above all the dog
> whistle politics, the Trump campaign understands this.
>
> "People are much more frightened than they are bigoted"...
>
> “But there is another way to interpret the Trump phenomenon. A map of his
> support may coordinate with racist Google searches, but it coordinates even
> better with deindustrialization and despair, with the zones of economic
> misery that 30 years of Washington’s free-market consensus have brought the
> rest of America.”
>
> It is worth noting that Trump is making a point of assailing that Indiana
> air conditioning company from the video
>  in his speeches. What this
> suggests is that he’s telling a tale as much about economic outrage as it
> is tale of racism on the march. Many of Trump’s followers are bigots, no
> doubt, but many more are probably excited by the prospect of a president
> who seems to mean it when he denounces our trade agreements and promises to
> bring the hammer down on the CEO that fired you and wrecked your town,
> unlike Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton.
>
> Here is the most salient supporting fact: when people talk to white,
> working-class Trump supporters, instead of simply imagining what they might
> say, they find that what most concerns these people is the economy and
> their place in it. I am referring to a study just published by Working
> America, a political-action auxiliary of the AFL-CIO, which interviewed
> some 1,600 white working-class voters in the suburbs of Cleveland and
> Pittsburgh in December and January.
>
> Support for Donald Trump, the group found, ran strong among these people,
> even among self-identified Democrats, but not because they are all pining
> for a racist in the White House. Their favorite aspect of Trump was his
> “attitude”, the blunt and forthright way he talks. As far as issues are
> concerned, “immigration” placed third among the matters such voters care
> about, far behind their number one concern: “good jobs / the economy”.
>
> “People are much more frightened than they are bigoted,” is how the
> findings were described to me by Karen Nussbaum, the executive director of
> Working America. The survey “confirmed what we heard all the time: people
> are fed up, people are hurting, they are very distressed about the fact
> that their kids don’t have a future” and that “there still hasn’t been a
> recovery from the recession, that every family still suffers from it in one
> way or another.”
>
> Tom Lewandowski, the president of the Northeast Indiana Central Labor
> Council in Fort Wayne, puts it even more bluntly when I asked him about
> working-class Trump fans. “These people aren’t racist, not any more than
> anybody else is,” he says of Trump supporters he knows. “When Trump talks
> about trade, we think about the Clinton administration, first with Nafta
> and then with [Permanent Normal Trade 

Re: [Marxism] victims of Trumpette violence?

[Manuel Barrera via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

In reply to Clayborne and others who seem to think they "know" what and how 
Black and Brown youth "should" be doing about this racist Trump campaign (from 
my reply to Partido on Facebook):

The Marxmail discussion is an exercise in theoretical posturing: essentially, 
old people telling young people that they should've had more "leadership" and, 
then from there, nothing. The implication is that somehow the young black and 
brown activists along with the well-established coalition-building left in 
Chicago should have not fallen into a trap (right, no real strategy about what 
do next, just don't fall into a trap, as if the trap of supporting Sanders 
weren't already a big one). I doubt Trump is all that Machiavellian or even 
conscious, but assuming he is, what exactly do "we" think Black and Brown youth 
should have done instead than respond with mass action?! Politely seek a 
"dialogue"? What is happening now in response to Trump's racist tirades is 
young people refusing to be silent. Period. Would there have been a 
"leadership" (apparently according to some on Marxmail, that seems to mean 
them) to be more "strategic" about it begs credulity and, moreso guts to have 
engaged "
 silent protest". Trump may not be as serious about his racism, but his 
followers, mostly frustrated White people fearing the end of their privilege in 
the world, seem very serious in promoting racial hatred and xenophobia. Do you 
really believe it best to follow King's passivity as a strategy over Malcolm's 
regarding organized self-defense? At a time when Trump promotes the beating of 
people of color at his rallies? What exactly do you think should be enough to 
begin mounting a defense and POLITICAL ACTION to counter this rather overt 
racist threat? I have called for every living democrat--inside, outside, and 
opposition to the Democratic and Republican parties--to stand up and come to 
the defense of the right to protest Trump's racist, xenophobic calls to begin 
what amounts to Apartheid for Muslims and Brown people as well as the continued 
repression of the Black community. We should support Sanders' rallies from 
being disrupted by the racist Trump followers even as we may oppose S
 anders' candidacy. We should participate in !
 the mass actions organized against Trump's rallies so that our experience can 
be heard and a movement can truly emerge from this otherwise spectator sport 
called the bourgeois elections. 
Maybe this Trump threat will come to nothing. But do we really wish to exhort 
young people for their "exuberance" while just standing on the sidelines 
bemoaning how "wrong" they are?

My time may be past to lead this charge, but I will be damned if I criticize 
these brave fighters for doing what they believe must be done and what we KNOW 
has to be prepared. In other words, if y'all have a better way, get out and 
help them do it! Or just shut up and be grateful that Chi-Town, Kansas City, 
and I really hope other cities still have the courage and fight in them.
 
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] victims of Trumpette violence?

[Greg McDonald via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

In other Trump-related news, the Donald explores alternative funding for
the Mexico border wall:


https://www.facebook.com/progsnobofficial/photos/a.177436475789791.1073741828.177434402456665/457502761116493/?type=3
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] victims of Trumpette violence?

[Andrew Pollack via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

I've been promoting online the several education for socialist bulletins on
what fascism is and how to fight it (as well as Trotsky's pamphlet of the
same name). Here's one which looks at different approaches - Cannonite and
Shachtmanite - toward a fascist rally in L.A. in 1946).
It seems to me there are parallel methodological differences today, even if
the specific tactical choices vary (as well as the fact that Trump doesn't
lead an organized fascist band).
https://www.marxists.org/history/etol/document/swp-us/education/antifascism/weiss.htm


On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 9:09 AM, Andrew Pollack 
wrote:

> Thanks to those contributing to this thread who stressed the role of
> leadership with tactical savvy.
> Today's Socialist Worker has an article which unfortunately doesn't
> display such savvy:
> http://socialistworker.org/2016/03/14/how-chicago-dumped-trump
>
> On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 4:05 PM, Clay Claiborne 
> wrote:
>
>> I think provoking Trumpette violence can be tactically stupid. But I also
>> think the UIC violence came mainly from Trump's people. No matter, he used
>> it to his advantage. It will probably help in in Illinois on Tues. I'm sure
>> he see's it that way.
>>
>> Trump is from the Assad/Putin school of politics - namely fascism - which
>> means they are all master con men and dirty tricksters, Trump will use
>> "Left" violence at his rallies the same way Putin & Assad use "terrorism"
>>
>> I suspect the secret service scramble the next day was entirely staged -
>> what do we know about the guy that jumped the bike rack? Have some SS
>> agents made a "deal" with Trump? Are they the "law enforcement" that
>> advised Trump to cancel the rally or was it that Arizona sheriff?
>>
>> Clay Claiborne, Director
>> Vietnam: American Holocaust 
>> Linux Beach Productions
>> Venice, CA 90291
>> (310) 581-1536
>>
>> Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 
>> 
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 12:23 PM, Andrew Pollack via Marxism <
>> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>>
>>>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
>>> #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
>>> #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
>>> #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>>> This is not a leading question, it's an honest attempt at clarity:
>>> Of the people of color or other anti-Trumpers who were pushed around,
>>> beaten, threatened etc. at Trump events: what percent were inside the
>>> events?
>>> I am NOT saying they deserved it, whether inside or out.
>>> I AM saying that if a Trumper came to a progressive event and started
>>> yelling, we would usher them out, perhaps even with force.
>>> And I AM saying that in the battle against right-wingers, defensive
>>> formulations matter.
>>> Physically stopping (with help from the pavement) attacks on our picket
>>> lines, meetings, mosques, etc., is essential. As is proactively building
>>> the movements which Trumpers would love to crush.
>>> But provoking Trumpette violence is just tactical stupidity.
>>> Opinions?
>>> _
>>> Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
>>> Set your options at:
>>> http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/clayclai%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] victims of Trumpette violence?

[Andrew Pollack via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

Thanks to those contributing to this thread who stressed the role of
leadership with tactical savvy.
Today's Socialist Worker has an article which unfortunately doesn't display
such savvy:
http://socialistworker.org/2016/03/14/how-chicago-dumped-trump

On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 4:05 PM, Clay Claiborne  wrote:

> I think provoking Trumpette violence can be tactically stupid. But I also
> think the UIC violence came mainly from Trump's people. No matter, he used
> it to his advantage. It will probably help in in Illinois on Tues. I'm sure
> he see's it that way.
>
> Trump is from the Assad/Putin school of politics - namely fascism - which
> means they are all master con men and dirty tricksters, Trump will use
> "Left" violence at his rallies the same way Putin & Assad use "terrorism"
>
> I suspect the secret service scramble the next day was entirely staged -
> what do we know about the guy that jumped the bike rack? Have some SS
> agents made a "deal" with Trump? Are they the "law enforcement" that
> advised Trump to cancel the rally or was it that Arizona sheriff?
>
> Clay Claiborne, Director
> Vietnam: American Holocaust 
> Linux Beach Productions
> Venice, CA 90291
> (310) 581-1536
>
> Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 
> 
>
> On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 12:23 PM, Andrew Pollack via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>
>>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
>> #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
>> #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
>> #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
>> *
>>
>>
>> This is not a leading question, it's an honest attempt at clarity:
>> Of the people of color or other anti-Trumpers who were pushed around,
>> beaten, threatened etc. at Trump events: what percent were inside the
>> events?
>> I am NOT saying they deserved it, whether inside or out.
>> I AM saying that if a Trumper came to a progressive event and started
>> yelling, we would usher them out, perhaps even with force.
>> And I AM saying that in the battle against right-wingers, defensive
>> formulations matter.
>> Physically stopping (with help from the pavement) attacks on our picket
>> lines, meetings, mosques, etc., is essential. As is proactively building
>> the movements which Trumpers would love to crush.
>> But provoking Trumpette violence is just tactical stupidity.
>> Opinions?
>> _
>> Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
>> Set your options at:
>> http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/clayclai%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] victims of Trumpette violence?

[Greg McDonald via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

I honestly do not think the Trump campaign engineered the confrontation in
Chicago. Now, if Juan Cole's analysis is correct--that Trump supporters are
all Klan and biker gang wannabe's, then perhaps. But if we look at Thomas
Frank's analysis, the primary concern of the white working class voters who
support Trump is the economy. I'm pretty sure that above all the dog
whistle politics, the Trump campaign understands this.

"People are much more frightened than they are bigoted"...

“But there is another way to interpret the Trump phenomenon. A map of his
support may coordinate with racist Google searches, but it coordinates even
better with deindustrialization and despair, with the zones of economic
misery that 30 years of Washington’s free-market consensus have brought the
rest of America.”

It is worth noting that Trump is making a point of assailing that Indiana
air conditioning company from the video
 in his speeches. What this
suggests is that he’s telling a tale as much about economic outrage as it
is tale of racism on the march. Many of Trump’s followers are bigots, no
doubt, but many more are probably excited by the prospect of a president
who seems to mean it when he denounces our trade agreements and promises to
bring the hammer down on the CEO that fired you and wrecked your town,
unlike Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton.

Here is the most salient supporting fact: when people talk to white,
working-class Trump supporters, instead of simply imagining what they might
say, they find that what most concerns these people is the economy and
their place in it. I am referring to a study just published by Working
America, a political-action auxiliary of the AFL-CIO, which interviewed
some 1,600 white working-class voters in the suburbs of Cleveland and
Pittsburgh in December and January.

Support for Donald Trump, the group found, ran strong among these people,
even among self-identified Democrats, but not because they are all pining
for a racist in the White House. Their favorite aspect of Trump was his
“attitude”, the blunt and forthright way he talks. As far as issues are
concerned, “immigration” placed third among the matters such voters care
about, far behind their number one concern: “good jobs / the economy”.

“People are much more frightened than they are bigoted,” is how the
findings were described to me by Karen Nussbaum, the executive director of
Working America. The survey “confirmed what we heard all the time: people
are fed up, people are hurting, they are very distressed about the fact
that their kids don’t have a future” and that “there still hasn’t been a
recovery from the recession, that every family still suffers from it in one
way or another.”

Tom Lewandowski, the president of the Northeast Indiana Central Labor
Council in Fort Wayne, puts it even more bluntly when I asked him about
working-class Trump fans. “These people aren’t racist, not any more than
anybody else is,” he says of Trump supporters he knows. “When Trump talks
about trade, we think about the Clinton administration, first with Nafta
and then with [Permanent Normal Trade Relations] China, and here in
Northeast Indiana, we hemorrhaged jobs.”

“They look at that, and here’s Trump talking about trade, in a ham-handed
way, but at least he’s representing emotionally. We’ve had all the
political establishment standing behind every trade deal, and we endorsed
some of these people, and then we’ve had to fight them to get them to
represent us.”


http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/thomas_frank_all_those_trump_supporters_theyre_not_just_racist_20160312
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] victims of Trumpette violence?

[Kevin Lindemann and Cathy Campo via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

The *Washington Post* got it right: "The success in shutting down Trump’s 
appearance was both organized and organic — the latest clash in a city where an 
energized activist network has frequently disrupted daily life with protests 
over high-profile police shootings of black men. In November, Black Friday 
shopping ended when thousands of protestors lined Michigan Avenue, refusing 
entry to shoppers."

Perhaps people outside of the Chicago area do not understand how organized and 
organic the demonstration against Trump was, but it was both--and experienced 
organizers were involved. But the organizing by youth was especially impressive 
and inspiring.

--Kevin Lindemann

_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

[Marxism] victims of Trumpette violence?

[Ken Hiebert via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

Clay Claiborne writes:
On 3/13/2016 2:56 PM, Ken Hiebert via Marxism wrote:
> We are with those who are coming out to oppose Trump, without reservation.
What does that mean really? "without reservation.?"  I'll tell you what 
I think it means: It means "without leadership" certainly from activists 
that hold that position. Without criticism and concern for strategy 
there can be no leadership.
* * * * * *

Ken Hiebert replies:
I think an older generation of activists may have something useful to say on 
questions of tactics.  And on the merit of going into Trump's rallies.  We 
should not expect the younger activists to listen to us unless they see us as 
fellow fighters, as people on their side.  
Standing with them on the street, we may get a hearing for our views.
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] victims of Trumpette violence?

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

On 3/13/2016 4:22 PM, Greg McDonald via Marxism wrote:

Some time ago a few of us were
>joking that Trump was Hillary's manchurian candidate.
I've heard that rumor too. That Bill put him up to it. It might even be 
true but then Trump proved to be too good at it. Stole the game. Now 
some Democrats are hoping he will be the GOP nominee, thinking he will 
be easiest to beat. I think that's playing with fire. He has obviously 
been successful in conning big media into backing him. He may even be 
successful in getting big capital to back him. They will all learn to 
regret it. Like Hitler & Mussolini, he will prove to be a disaster for all.

_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] victims of Trumpette violence?

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

On 3/13/2016 4:16 PM, Glenn Kissack via Marxism wrote:

So here’s an interesting dilemma for Sanders supporters who are justifiably 
unhappy with the sway of the billionaire class. If Trump is the nominee it 
looks as though Clinton will be the favored candidate of most of that class, 
including many who would normally back the GOP candidate.

So Sanders supporters who resign themselves to voting for the lesser of two 
evils — supposedly Hillary — will be voting for the choice of the very people 
they dislike.
It seems like this dilemma is pretty generic to the fight against rising 
fascism generally. It is likely everywhere to split the billionaire 
class and this will temporarily put a section of them on the side of the 
people in the fight against fascism, and then the people have to decide 
how to deal with that.


We saw how that played out in world-historic terms around WWII, but such 
nasty dilemmas will also come up in the fight against Trump.

_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] victims of Trumpette violence?

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

On 3/13/2016 2:59 PM, Greg McDonald via Marxism wrote:

For the sake of argument, let's pretend Trump did initiate a set-up.
Let's instead hear some sound counters to my arguments that it was a 
setup. Again:
How many Trump rallies have been held in the heart of a major city, on 
a university campus? http://www.donaldjtrump.com/schedule Today he 
rallies at the Synergy Flight Center in Bloomington, IL., then he does 
his "Cincinnati Town Hall" in West Chester, OH 25 miles from downtown 
Cincinnati. Then its off to the Sunset Cove Amphitheater in Boca 
Raton, Fl. Tomorrow he'll be at Lenoir-Rhyne University in Hickory, 
NC, an 86% white Christian school. These are much more his style. The 
choice of UIC, in the DT Chicago and home of Black Youth Project 100, 
stands out like a sore thumb. But the choice of that venue plus the 
fact that while it is another characteristic of Trump rallies that 
they make every effort to insure that only Trump supporters get in, 
such policing was dropped for this event,
Add to that the way he has been systematically building the rhetoric of 
confrontation with protesters: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuTe_sAI-UQ


So please, let's not pretend and do take all that on board:

  If so,
it backfired. The MSM and sunday afternoon network talking heads have been
having a field day.
I think you would be well advised to hold any verdict as whether it 
backfired on not until after the voting on Tuesday.


I was in Chicago for the 1968 DNC and organizing on the Southside in the 
early 70's before Obama, so I know a little about Northern Illinois, but 
I was in St. Louis for 8 year, worked with activists in East St. Louis, 
Granite city & Danville, so I know even more about Southern Illinois and 
I think Trump planned this with the good-ole boys downstate in mind, far 
from Democratic Chicago and the Sunday morning talking heads. I think he 
is seriously playing a long game to become POTUS and then some. I think 
this little stunt was designed to rally them to the polls to vote for 
Trump, so I will wait until after Tuesday before I render a verdict on 
its effectiveness.

_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] victims of Trumpette violence?

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*


On 3/13/2016 2:56 PM, Ken Hiebert via Marxism wrote:

We are with those who are coming out to oppose Trump, without reservation.
What does that mean really? "without reservation.?"  I'll tell you what 
I think it means: It means "without leadership" certainly from activists 
that hold that position. Without criticism and concern for strategy 
there can be no leadership.

_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] victims of Trumpette violence?

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

On 3/13/2016 2:39 PM, Manuel Barrera via Marxism wrote:

Geez, it sounds, Clay, like you (and unfortunately too many others) seem to 
think that Black and Brown youth response to the ongoing racist, xenophobic 
violence and threats of violence by Trump and the racists he has emboldened 
were somehow ill-advised in exerting their RIGHT to stand up against it.

Manuel,

You're assertion of their RIGHT, reminds me of the saying "The road to 
hell is paved with good intentions."


I say, in essence, our troops rode into an ambush, and you response with 
"their RIGHT to stand up against it." So I have to ask you: What's your 
point? Of course they have "the RIGHT" to fight the enemy whenever and 
wherever they can. They even have the RIGHT to ride into an ambush. I 
just think it ill-advised to do so.


A UIC venue not really controlled by UIC [ a home of the BLM and 46% 
white] the week before the Illinois primary was ground of Trump's 
choosing. That's doesn't mean we shouldn't meet him on it. There are 
many factors to consider. It does mean we mustn't approach these 
questions any less strategically than Trump. Justifying a dog whistle 
response to his provocation with talk about RIGHTS is not on.


And I don't fault the Black and Brown youth for this error because they 
lack the political wisdom that comes with experience.  The article Kevin 
forwarded to this thread was very informative in this regard,
But during the meeting, when the question was raised, “How many people 
here have been to a protest?” 20 of the 100 students present raised 
their hands. Then the question was asked, “How many have organized a 
protest?” only a few hands went up.
Kevin finds that very inspiring. I find it very depressing. Very 
depressing indeed that in a city that has a Left radical history going 
back as long as I can remember, there was so little in the way of 
experienced leaders to guide them. Given the relative lack of 
leadership, which is not their fault, I expect they will ride into quite 
a few ambushes and sadly learn other things the hard way, but then I am 
one who blames this whole sorry state of affairs on a "Left" that has 
been almost completely captured by phonies.


Yes, the article was inspiring as to how they organized the disruption 
so quickly but it also doesn't indicate that ten minutes of thought or 
discussion was ever given as to what Trump's motive in planning the UIC 
rally was, how it would likely effect Tuesday's primary vote, what Trump 
expected to get out of it. They just knew that he held it there they 
would come, as did he.

_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] victims of Trumpette violence?

[Greg McDonald via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/who-does-wall-street-want-be-president?cid=sm_fb_msnbc

Famed investor Byron Wien of Blackrock, who previously spent 21 years at
Morgan Stanley, voiced major concerns when it comes to Donald Trump
potential ascension to the White House.

“Donald Trump is attacking Mexico, he’s attacking pretty much all of
Europe, he’s attacking the Muslim religion and he’s not denounced the Klu
Klux Klan,” noted Wien.

“It has been, so far, a difficult year. I think it will be a down year, and
I didn’t [initially] anticipate Donald Trump’s ascendency, but he’ll
contribute to that,” the investor added.

Economists on both the left and right have had choice words for Trump’s
controversial positions on trade and immigration. Some think his threat to
slap tariffs on China could lead to a trade war, or even a global
recession. Wien also faulted the billionaire real estate mogul’s plans on
trade, which could isolate the U.S. economy from major trading partners.

*READ MORE: How Bernie Sanders supporters shut down a Donald Trump rally in
Chicago
*

Joseph Grano, who as a key figure in the merger between UBS and PaineWebber
and now works as Chairman and CEO of Centurion Holdings, echoed Wien’s
concerns.

“Donald’s got to show us some depth,” warned Grano, who also served as
Chairman of the Homeland Security Advisory Council. “If he doesn’t start
acting more presidential, and tone down the hyperbole and the rhetoric, he
may get the [GOP] nomination, but I don’t think he can win the presidency.”
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] victims of Trumpette violence?

[Greg McDonald via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

> Hillary is counting on that, actually. Some time ago a few of us were
> joking that Trump was Hillary's manchurian candidate.
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] victims of Trumpette violence?

[Glenn Kissack via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

Meanwhile, the GOP billionaire donor class is pulling its hair out trying to 
stop Trump from being the nominee:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/aei-world-forum-donald-trump_us_56ddbd38e4b0ffe6f8ea125d?ir=Politics=us_politics

So here’s an interesting dilemma for Sanders supporters who are justifiably 
unhappy with the sway of the billionaire class. If Trump is the nominee it 
looks as though Clinton will be the favored candidate of most of that class, 
including many who would normally back the GOP candidate.

So Sanders supporters who resign themselves to voting for the lesser of two 
evils — supposedly Hillary — will be voting for the choice of the very people 
they dislike.

I’m reading Doug Henwood’s book about Hillary: My Turn, which convincingly 
shows why the Clintons are loved by the oligarchy.

Glenn
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] victims of Trumpette violence?

[Mark Lause via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

First rule in understanding a media pig is to realize that, for them, all
publicity is good publicity.  So long as it keeps Trump's bullying threats
at the top of the News, he's the beneficiary.  As we've seen through this
entire campaign, the more negative coverage he gets, it actually just feeds
his supporters with reasons to like him more.

ML
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] victims of Trumpette violence?

[Greg McDonald via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

For the sake of argument, let's pretend Trump did initiate a set-up. If so,
it backfired. The MSM and sunday afternoon network talking heads have been
having a field day.

http://mediamatters.org/research/2016/03/13/sunday-political-talk-shows-condemn-trump-for-i/209218
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

[Marxism] victims of Trumpette violence?

[Ken Hiebert via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

Andrew Pollack said;
This is not a leading question, it's an honest attempt at clarity:
Of the people of color or other anti-Trumpers who were pushed around,
beaten, threatened etc. at Trump events: what percent were inside the
events?
I am NOT saying they deserved it, whether inside or out.
I AM saying that if a Trumper came to a progressive event and started
yelling, we would usher them out, perhaps even with force.
And I AM saying that in the battle against right-wingers, defensive
formulations matter.
Physically stopping (with help from the pavement) attacks on our picket
lines, meetings, mosques, etc., is essential. As is proactively building
the movements which Trumpers would love to crush.
But provoking Trumpette violence is just tactical stupidity.
Opinions?


Ken Hiebert replies:
Of course I speak from a distance.
We are with those who are coming out to oppose Trump, without reservation.  
Given the diffuse and elemental nature of the movement, the only place to 
engage with the activists is at the rallies.  I think it would be permissible 
to be on the street outside a Trump rally with a placard and to refrain from 
going in.  This might allow you to explain your thinking to the activists, to 
begin to connect.
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] victims of Trumpette violence?

[Manuel Barrera via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

"I think provoking Trumpette violence can be tactically stupid. But I also 
think the UIC violence came mainly from Trump's people." 

Geez, it sounds, Clay, like you (and unfortunately too many others) seem to 
think that Black and Brown youth response to the ongoing racist, xenophobic 
violence and threats of violence by Trump and the racists he has emboldened 
were somehow ill-advised in exerting their RIGHT to stand up against it. This 
response by activists in BLM and, even, from the muddle-headed leftists 
supporting Sanders (at least they got THIS response right) is exactly how to 
turn the miasma of the bourgeois elections into veritable political action that 
can become comprehensible to larger numbers of the masses, especially Black, 
Brown, Muslim, and immigrant communtiies. Can't you even imagine how incensed, 
frustrated, and even cowed many of US have felt hearing day in, day out, the 
racist hysteria being perpetrated under the guise of "electioneering"? Trump 
may not be a fascist (I agree with that assessment), but there are many racists 
and frustrated White workers who may think he is and are emboldened to ex
 press their hatred in vile and violent ways. It is to the credit of BLM and 
Sanders activists and, even Sanders (who has called Trump on his threats to 
send his supporters to Sanders rallies) that they are willing to take this 
fight into the streets. It is about Time! 

The opportunity is right here to call out people like Sanders and Clinton to 
stand up for democratic rights, to create a groundswell of action, rather than 
simple electioneering on the real issues that are behind people like Trump (and 
Cruz, for that matter). I believe there should be united coalition-like action 
to defend Sanders' rallies against the potential for racist violence that Trump 
is trying generate. Such actions can spill onto the streets the issues that 
bourgeois electoralism is designed to obfuscate. There is potential to mobilize 
on the very issues Sanders pretends to "save us" with and that the Democratic 
Party wants to funnel into voting. 

My personal view is that Sanders will likely back down and that Trump may also, 
but it is also possible that a real important battle will be joined here. We 
should be standing with young people in this fight and, if the opportunity 
presents itself, to propose veritable mass action tactics that can bring the 
battles that bourgeois candidates only want to talk about into the streets. 
 
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] victims of Trumpette violence?

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

I think provoking Trumpette violence can be tactically stupid. But I also
think the UIC violence came mainly from Trump's people. No matter, he used
it to his advantage. It will probably help in in Illinois on Tues. I'm sure
he see's it that way.

Trump is from the Assad/Putin school of politics - namely fascism - which
means they are all master con men and dirty tricksters, Trump will use
"Left" violence at his rallies the same way Putin & Assad use "terrorism"

I suspect the secret service scramble the next day was entirely staged -
what do we know about the guy that jumped the bike rack? Have some SS
agents made a "deal" with Trump? Are they the "law enforcement" that
advised Trump to cancel the rally or was it that Arizona sheriff?

Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 


On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 12:23 PM, Andrew Pollack via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
> #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
> #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
> *
>
> This is not a leading question, it's an honest attempt at clarity:
> Of the people of color or other anti-Trumpers who were pushed around,
> beaten, threatened etc. at Trump events: what percent were inside the
> events?
> I am NOT saying they deserved it, whether inside or out.
> I AM saying that if a Trumper came to a progressive event and started
> yelling, we would usher them out, perhaps even with force.
> And I AM saying that in the battle against right-wingers, defensive
> formulations matter.
> Physically stopping (with help from the pavement) attacks on our picket
> lines, meetings, mosques, etc., is essential. As is proactively building
> the movements which Trumpers would love to crush.
> But provoking Trumpette violence is just tactical stupidity.
> Opinions?
> _
> Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
> Set your options at:
> http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/clayclai%40gmail.com
>
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com