Re: [Marxism] PYD: US bombing of airbase good, but it should bomb rebels too
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Video evidence and a doctor's report on his patients' symptoms constitute strong evidence of the use of chlorine. Amnesty is ultra-cautious in drawing a definite conclusion, but that does not mean the accusation is "spurious". Chlorine is not as lethal as sarin. But still, firing chlorine laden missiles into an urban neighbourhood is an attempt to terrorise the civilian population. The use of chemical weapons was merely one aspect of the siege imposed on Sheikh Maqsoud by some reactionary rebel groups. I won't comment on Salih Muslim's interview without seeing the full text. I don't advocate US bombing as a response to rebel use of chemical weapons. Chris Slee From: Michael Karadjis <mkarad...@gmail.com> Sent: Thursday, 13 April 2017 4:35:19 PM To: Chris Slee; Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition Subject: Re: [Marxism] PYD: US bombing of airbase good, but it should bomb rebels too -Original Message- From: Chris Slee Readers can look at Amnesty International's report on the siege of Sheikh Maqsoud (a predominantly Kurdish neighbourhood of Aleppo) by some rebel groups and decide for themselves if the accusation is "spurious": https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/05/syria-armed-opposition-groups-committing-war-crimes-in-aleppo-city/ ... Yes, we already had that discussion, so I'll just post it here again, and then you tell me if this spurious accusation is in the same league as Assad's sarin massacre and whether it justifies the PYD leader calling for US air strikes on the rebels: Amnesty: "There are also **allegations** that members of armed groups attacking Sheikh Maqsoud **may have** used chemical weapons. A local doctor told Amnesty International that on 7 and 8 April he treated six civilians and two YPG fighters for symptoms including shortness of breath, numbness, red eyes and severe coughing fits. Several of the victims, he said, reported seeing yellow smoke as missiles impacted. A toxicologist consulted by Amnesty International, who viewed video-clips of the apparent attack and reviewed the doctor’s testimony, said the patients’ symptoms **could be** the effects of a chlorine attack. A subsequent statement purportedly issued by the leader of the Army of Islam armed group said that a field commander had deployed an **“unauthorised weapon”** on Sheikh Maqsoud and that he would be held to account". https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/05/syria-armed-opposition-groups-committing-war-crimes-in-aleppo-city/ Not sure that the only cause of “shortness of breath, numbness, red eyes and severe coughing fits” is the use of chemical weapons. Lots of “may”, “could” etc in this report for very good reason. But the trouble with the bit about a Jaysh Islam leader disciplining a northern field commander (JI is almost entirely a Damascus-based group) for use of “weapons not authorized for use in these types of confrontations” is that JI specified it was referring to “modified Grad rockets, not chlorine: https://twitter.com/islamalloush0/status/718121743949414403. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] PYD: US bombing of airbase good, but it should bomb rebels too
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * It's not very clear how accurately these quotes that Rudaw.net presents from Salih Muslim from an apparent interview with Voice of America - no such interview seems to be on the VOA website - represents his views. It is from a news source based in an authoritarian statelet run by billionaire gangsters intensely hostile to Rojava. It's even less clear from the two almost identical summaries of the Rudaw article on other sites that Michael seems to think supports the veracity of the report. All they show is how anyone can select quotes and take out qualifications, which is what they do. It doesn't seem likely likely that Rudaw just made this up or that it's as egregious a distortion as their previous total stitch-up of Muslim as supporting ethnic cleansing, which Chris referred to, as Muslim has made comments before seemingly supportive of US intervention. But it's also not clear to what extent these are genuine illusions in US imperialism on his part, and what extent they are diplomatic noises, a bit like Fidel saying to US audiences he was for "Jeffersonian democracy" in the 50s. Anyway I think the following from an article published today might be more representative of the views of PYD cadres: > "Berxwedan ashes his cigarette and recalls the final days of the battle that saw the so-called Islamic State expelled from this Kurdish city of resistance. He is visibly upset by my question about the so-called ‘international community’ (i.e United States) wanting to claim the glory in this struggle, saying ‘The international powers ignored what was taking place here until only a tiny section of the city was still left in our control. Then they intervened at last – not for us in the YPG and YPJ, but for both their geostrategic interests and because they themselves perhaps finally saw the danger to Daesh could pose even to them. But we know they didn’t give us air support because they actually support our struggle. They certainly don’t support us politically. That hasn’t changed more than two years later.’ "Newroz chimes in, talking about how the western powers ignoring the battle of Kobane provoked ‘a lot of anger’. She also insists, ‘how dare they try to take the credit for the liberation of Kobane when they have contributed nothing to the rebuilding of the city?’" http://kurdishquestion.com/article/3888-the-epic-resistance-of-kobane-21st-century-stalingrad-rises-from-the-rubble _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] PYD: US bombing of airbase good, but it should bomb rebels too
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * -Original Message- From: Chris Slee Readers can look at Amnesty International's report on the siege of Sheikh Maqsoud (a predominantly Kurdish neighbourhood of Aleppo) by some rebel groups and decide for themselves if the accusation is "spurious": https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/05/syria-armed-opposition-groups-committing-war-crimes-in-aleppo-city/ ... Yes, we already had that discussion, so I'll just post it here again, and then you tell me if this spurious accusation is in the same league as Assad's sarin massacre and whether it justifies the PYD leader calling for US air strikes on the rebels: Amnesty: "There are also **allegations** that members of armed groups attacking Sheikh Maqsoud **may have** used chemical weapons. A local doctor told Amnesty International that on 7 and 8 April he treated six civilians and two YPG fighters for symptoms including shortness of breath, numbness, red eyes and severe coughing fits. Several of the victims, he said, reported seeing yellow smoke as missiles impacted. A toxicologist consulted by Amnesty International, who viewed video-clips of the apparent attack and reviewed the doctor’s testimony, said the patients’ symptoms **could be** the effects of a chlorine attack. A subsequent statement purportedly issued by the leader of the Army of Islam armed group said that a field commander had deployed an **“unauthorised weapon”** on Sheikh Maqsoud and that he would be held to account". https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/05/syria-armed-opposition-groups-committing-war-crimes-in-aleppo-city/ Not sure that the only cause of “shortness of breath, numbness, red eyes and severe coughing fits” is the use of chemical weapons. Lots of “may”, “could” etc in this report for very good reason. But the trouble with the bit about a Jaysh Islam leader disciplining a northern field commander (JI is almost entirely a Damascus-based group) for use of “weapons not authorized for use in these types of confrontations” is that JI specified it was referring to “modified Grad rockets, not chlorine: https://twitter.com/islamalloush0/status/718121743949414403. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] PYD: US bombing of airbase good, but it should bomb rebels too
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Chris Slee writes: Michael Karadjis claims that Saleh Muslim made a "spurious assertion about an alleged use of chlorine" by the rebels. Readers can look at Amnesty International's report on the siege of Sheikh Maqsoud (a predominantly Kurdish neighbourhood of Aleppo) by some rebel groups and decide for themselves if the accusation is "spurious": https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/05/syria-armed-opposition-groups-committing-war-crimes-in-aleppo-city/ This amnesty article includes the following, which suggests that on one isolated occasion a chemical weapon was used: I would suspect from the context that someone found and used one, and was being dealt with for it, although what that means is anyone's guess. It's still comparing apples and oranges (or watermelons and grapes) to liken this one incident to the regime's record. "A toxicologist consulted by Amnesty International, who viewed video-clips of the apparent attack and reviewed the doctor’s testimony, said the patients’ symptoms could be the effects of a chlorine attack. A subsequent statement purportedly issued by the leader of the Army of Islam armed group said that a field commander had deployed an “unauthorised weapon” on Sheikh Maqsoud and that he would be held to account." _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] PYD: US bombing of airbase good, but it should bomb rebels too
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Michael Karadjis claims that Saleh Muslim made a "spurious assertion about an alleged use of chlorine" by the rebels. Readers can look at Amnesty International's report on the siege of Sheikh Maqsoud (a predominantly Kurdish neighbourhood of Aleppo) by some rebel groups and decide for themselves if the accusation is "spurious": https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/05/syria-armed-opposition-groups-committing-war-crimes-in-aleppo-city/ In my view the hostility between some rebel groups and the Syrian Democratic Forces is a product of Turkish and Gulf state intervention. Gulf funding and Turkish military aid have gone largely to the more reactionary rebel groups that are hostile to Kurdish rights and/or the rights of religious minorities and/or the PYD's leftist politics. Chris Slee _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] PYD: US bombing of airbase good, but it should bomb rebels too
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I totally agree with all your points, Michael. I was trying to be diplomatic and guarded, knowing my tendency to go ballistic... On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 7:47 PM, Michael Karadjis <mkarad...@gmail.com> wrote: > Yes Andy, well that's the test isn't it. If the radical people's > revolution as it claims to be - and is no doubt partly true - can't seem to > inspire anyone outside the regions they control, then that needs analysis. > For one thing, we are aware of the real life restrictions on the Rojova > revolution (as on the rest of the revolution). The PYD runs a one-party > state, it arrests and jails oppositionists, it bans newspapers (eg Rudaw) > etc. It does not engage in ethnic cleansing in the systematic sense but the > allegations about less-systematic uprooting villagers and destroying > property are widespread enough. > > But much as we could debate all that (how much are restrictions imposed by > the situation etc, again, as with the rest of the revolution), the alliance > with US and Russian imperialism is more fundamental. Of course I agree that > we shouldn't attack them, or invalidate their own revolution, simply > because they get massive military aid from the US (and I have never done > that; and never mind that many Rojava-Firsters do precisely that to the > FSA/rebels due to the comparatively insignificant US aid they sometimes > get). But there is aid and aid. There is defence and there is offence. US > aid for the defence of Kobani was existential. The ongoing war however is > another thing. Sure, despite the US alliance, of course we still prefer > victories of SDF over ISIS tyranny, that is a given. But at what point does > systematic alliance become a political problem? Clearly, anyone can see > there are dangers. > > Here's the thing: their supporters talk about "extending the revolution." > Yet every extension of the borders of Rojava has been a military extension > with the direct aid of US imperialism, air strikes, special forces etc. Can > a radical democratic revolution really be extended that way? Even of we > leave aside the widespread allegations of abuses, what of the fact that > these US bombings kill lots of civilians? The US bombs killed 200 civilians > on the way into Manbij. I'm sure the people are happy to see the back of > Daesh. But how do these bombings and killings affect the reception of the > YPG/SDF? I don't know for sure, but it seems to me a problem. Certainly the > underground anti-ISIS group 'Raqqa is being Slaughtered Silently' > continually reports both on the terror unleashed by US bombing, and on > widespread distrust of the YPG. They are anything but ISIS tools. And all > that is before we even come to last year's alliance with Russian > imperialism in the conquest not of ISIS territory, but of rebel territory, > north of Aleppo city, which cut the city off from Azaz, Mare and the > Turkish border: ie, prepared the way for Assad's victory in Aleppo. I don't > think we can underestimate the effects of such actions on the mutual > solidarity Andy is talking about. > > And Salih Muslim's statements like this one - US should bomb the rebels > too, based on some spurious assertion about an alleged use of chlorine > (Assad has used chlorine dozens if not hundreds of times) - is an example > of the political impact of long-term alliance. > > -Original Message- From: Andrew Pollack via Marxism > Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2017 12:17 AM > To: Michael Karadjis > Subject: Re: [Marxism] PYD: US bombing of airbase good, but it should bomb > rebels too > > POSTING RULES & NOTES > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > * > > Meanwhile ROAR has another puff piece about the Ocalanists: > https://roarmag.org/magazine/dilar-dirik-kurdish-anti-fascism/ > > Much of what they say about the essential linkages of revolution, war, > class, gender etc. is true. And don't miss their mostly valid denunciation > of purist Western leftists who attack them for getting aid from > imperialism. (Sound familiar?) > > But... > > If they're so ideologically advanced, democratic, self-less blah blah blah, > how come they have made virtually no impact on the anti-
Re: [Marxism] PYD: US bombing of airbase good, but it should bomb rebels too
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Yes Andy, well that's the test isn't it. If the radical people's revolution as it claims to be - and is no doubt partly true - can't seem to inspire anyone outside the regions they control, then that needs analysis. For one thing, we are aware of the real life restrictions on the Rojova revolution (as on the rest of the revolution). The PYD runs a one-party state, it arrests and jails oppositionists, it bans newspapers (eg Rudaw) etc. It does not engage in ethnic cleansing in the systematic sense but the allegations about less-systematic uprooting villagers and destroying property are widespread enough. But much as we could debate all that (how much are restrictions imposed by the situation etc, again, as with the rest of the revolution), the alliance with US and Russian imperialism is more fundamental. Of course I agree that we shouldn't attack them, or invalidate their own revolution, simply because they get massive military aid from the US (and I have never done that; and never mind that many Rojava-Firsters do precisely that to the FSA/rebels due to the comparatively insignificant US aid they sometimes get). But there is aid and aid. There is defence and there is offence. US aid for the defence of Kobani was existential. The ongoing war however is another thing. Sure, despite the US alliance, of course we still prefer victories of SDF over ISIS tyranny, that is a given. But at what point does systematic alliance become a political problem? Clearly, anyone can see there are dangers. Here's the thing: their supporters talk about "extending the revolution." Yet every extension of the borders of Rojava has been a military extension with the direct aid of US imperialism, air strikes, special forces etc. Can a radical democratic revolution really be extended that way? Even of we leave aside the widespread allegations of abuses, what of the fact that these US bombings kill lots of civilians? The US bombs killed 200 civilians on the way into Manbij. I'm sure the people are happy to see the back of Daesh. But how do these bombings and killings affect the reception of the YPG/SDF? I don't know for sure, but it seems to me a problem. Certainly the underground anti-ISIS group 'Raqqa is being Slaughtered Silently' continually reports both on the terror unleashed by US bombing, and on widespread distrust of the YPG. They are anything but ISIS tools. And all that is before we even come to last year's alliance with Russian imperialism in the conquest not of ISIS territory, but of rebel territory, north of Aleppo city, which cut the city off from Azaz, Mare and the Turkish border: ie, prepared the way for Assad's victory in Aleppo. I don't think we can underestimate the effects of such actions on the mutual solidarity Andy is talking about. And Salih Muslim's statements like this one - US should bomb the rebels too, based on some spurious assertion about an alleged use of chlorine (Assad has used chlorine dozens if not hundreds of times) - is an example of the political impact of long-term alliance. -Original Message- From: Andrew Pollack via Marxism Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2017 12:17 AM To: Michael Karadjis Subject: Re: [Marxism] PYD: US bombing of airbase good, but it should bomb rebels too POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Meanwhile ROAR has another puff piece about the Ocalanists: https://roarmag.org/magazine/dilar-dirik-kurdish-anti-fascism/ Much of what they say about the essential linkages of revolution, war, class, gender etc. is true. And don't miss their mostly valid denunciation of purist Western leftists who attack them for getting aid from imperialism. (Sound familiar?) But... If they're so ideologically advanced, democratic, self-less blah blah blah, how come they have made virtually no impact on the anti-Assad movement? Yes, Syrian Arab elites are still mostly racist toward Kurds. But where's the mutual solidarity between LCCs and Kurdish equivalents? _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/mkaradjis%40gmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csb
Re: [Marxism] PYD: US bombing of airbase good, but it should bomb rebels too
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Meanwhile ROAR has another puff piece about the Ocalanists: https://roarmag.org/magazine/dilar-dirik-kurdish-anti-fascism/ Much of what they say about the essential linkages of revolution, war, class, gender etc. is true. And don't miss their mostly valid denunciation of purist Western leftists who attack them for getting aid from imperialism. (Sound familiar?) But... If they're so ideologically advanced, democratic, self-less blah blah blah, how come they have made virtually no impact on the anti-Assad movement? Yes, Syrian Arab elites are still mostly racist toward Kurds. But where's the mutual solidarity between LCCs and Kurdish equivalents? _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] PYD: US bombing of airbase good, but it should bomb rebels too
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Reported elsewhere, eg http://komnews.org/all-groups-in-syria-with-chemical-weapons-should-be-targeted-pyd-co-leader/, http://waarmedia.com/english/salih-muslim-groups-syria-chemical-weapons-targeted/ I think he is just trying to be consistent. As the main beneficiary, and active ally, of 2.5 years of 8000 US air strikes in Syria against ISIS, a mere mouse compared to the Assad hyena, and Nusra, a mere flea, resulting in over a thousand civilian deaths, Salih Muslim's PYD would sure look funny only complaining when the US finally made a strike against an Assad air base, killing no civilians. Clearly he doesn't want to look as silly as so many western leftists and "anti"-war folk, who apparently think US bombing of Syria began a few days ago. But adding that the US should bomb the rebels too (as if the US hasn't already bombed plenty of rebels plenty of times long before the one strike on Assad) really is a new low for this guy. Probably better for SA to just say in this case you disagree with him (gulp!), much as you like his movement overall. Try it. You'll find it not as hard as you expect. -Original Message- From: Chris Slee I looked at the Voice of America website to try to find the interview from which extracts are quoted in this article. However I was unable to find the interview. Rudaw has a history of misrepresenting the views of Salih Muslim. For example, see the comments following this article: links.org.au/node/4679 Chris Slee _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] PYD: US bombing of airbase good, but it should bomb rebels too
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I looked at the Voice of America website to try to find the interview from which extracts are quoted in this article. However I was unable to find the interview. Rudaw has a history of misrepresenting the views of Salih Muslim. For example, see the comments following this article: links.org.au/node/4679 Chris Slee From: Marxismon behalf of Michael Karadjis via Marxism Sent: Tuesday, 11 April 2017 11:58:54 PM To: Chris Slee Subject: [Marxism] PYD: US bombing of airbase good, but it should bomb rebels too POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * PYD leader: US strikes should target all who use chemical weapons in Syria By Rudaw 7/4/2017 http://www.rudaw.net/english/middleeast/syria/070420174 ERBIL, Kurdistan Region – The co-leader of the main Kurdish party in Syrian Kurdistan, Salih Muslim, has called on the US to extend strikes against every Syrian party that has chemical weapons. “We hope that the United States will not confine itself to punishing the Syrian regime alone, because there are a lot of chemical weapons in Syria and others parties have also used it, in Sheikh Maqsoud, in Rojava [Syrian Kurdistan], and Raqqa,” Muslim said as he was speaking to US-funded Voice of America from Brussels, naming alleged chemical attacks by ISIS and Syrian opposition forces. Muslim said that he cannot assess whether or not the US strikes against a Syrian airbase overnight will have a positive or negative results on the ground. “We will look at the results,” he said. He however said that this may force parties on the ground to realize that there is not a military solution to the six-year civil in Syria that has claimed half a million lives, by some estimates. From this perspective, the strikes may turn out to be good, he noted. “We believe that this attack must yield positive results since the parties who did not believe in a political solution may reconsider and see that there is no military solution,” Muslim argued, explaining that the US was “forced” to take actions in an atmosphere where they were left with no other options. Muslim is the co-leader of the Democratic Union Party (PYD), the political party in northern Syria aligned with the armed YPG who are receiving military backing from the US-led coalition as part of the Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF). He has helped to carve out a mainly Kurdish enclave in northern Syria. Muslim hoped that the US strikes will not be a “one-off” option and called on the US to also target other Syrian armed groups, whom he said have their hands on the banned weapons. Asked about US involvement, the PYD leader said that regional and international powers have now entered the Syrian civil war with their own forces following a period of waging a “proxy war.” The US is already involved to such an extent that it cannot “turn its back” on Syria, he argued, especially in its war against ISIS where it is helping the Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) in their campaign to defeat the extremist group in Raqqa, the ISIS de-facto capital in Syria _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/chris_w_slee%40hotmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com