Re: [Mesa-dev] [MR] Update README to recommend MRs instead of `git send-email`

[Eric Anholt]

Jason Ekstrand  writes:

> On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 11:19 AM Kristian Høgsberg 
> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 12:17 AM Daniel Stone  wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > On Sat, 6 Jul 2019 at 18:39, Ilia Mirkin  wrote:
>> > > I see this as driving away contributions, esp from new people. MR's
>> > > are annoying to create, since they require dealing with the hosting
>> > > provider, getting it to host clones, etc. Everyone has email.
>> >
>> > My position - and the evidence of velocity from projects who have
>> > switched - is already pretty clear, but you might be interested to
>> > read that even kernel.org admins are trying to move away from email:
>> >
>> https://people.kernel.org/monsieuricon/patches-carved-into-developer-sigchains
>>
>> I have the same experience - I've used git since before it was usable
>> and I'm more than happy to not have to worry about making git
>> send-email work. I'm pretty sure that gitlab in general lowers the bar
>> for contributions considerably, I know I find my self doing a lot more
>> reviews and drive-by comments because of how easy it feels
>
>
> I know I'm a gitlab fan-boy so you all know I like this.  What I will say
> is that it's not only easier for new developers because PRs are a concept
> they already know from GitHub and the like but it's also easier for
> maintainers.  I've actually started getting annoyed when people send
> patches to the list and I have to apply them from e-mail.  It's so much
> easier to just check that they've added all the tags and click a couple
> buttons in the web UI than to have to find the thing on patchwork, download
> it, hope it applies, and push it.

Same.  I'm actually not reading patches on the mailing list any more.
If you want my input, put it in the system where I don't have to waste
my time tracking if it's been merged or not and whether you responded to
my comments from the last round.

I don't think we're quite to "make sure they've added the tags and click
the button" safely since we don't have pre-merge testing happening (you
have to trust that the submitter tested, and master hasn't regressed
things since then).  I'm working on that.


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Re: [Mesa-dev] [MR] Update README to recommend MRs instead of `git send-email`

[Jason Ekstrand]

On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 11:19 AM Kristian Høgsberg 
wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 12:17 AM Daniel Stone  wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > On Sat, 6 Jul 2019 at 18:39, Ilia Mirkin  wrote:
> > > I see this as driving away contributions, esp from new people. MR's
> > > are annoying to create, since they require dealing with the hosting
> > > provider, getting it to host clones, etc. Everyone has email.
> >
> > My position - and the evidence of velocity from projects who have
> > switched - is already pretty clear, but you might be interested to
> > read that even kernel.org admins are trying to move away from email:
> >
> https://people.kernel.org/monsieuricon/patches-carved-into-developer-sigchains
>
> I have the same experience - I've used git since before it was usable
> and I'm more than happy to not have to worry about making git
> send-email work. I'm pretty sure that gitlab in general lowers the bar
> for contributions considerably, I know I find my self doing a lot more
> reviews and drive-by comments because of how easy it feels


I know I'm a gitlab fan-boy so you all know I like this.  What I will say
is that it's not only easier for new developers because PRs are a concept
they already know from GitHub and the like but it's also easier for
maintainers.  I've actually started getting annoyed when people send
patches to the list and I have to apply them from e-mail.  It's so much
easier to just check that they've added all the tags and click a couple
buttons in the web UI than to have to find the thing on patchwork, download
it, hope it applies, and push it.

I also don't get why this is controversial.  It's just a recommendation to
new people coming in off the internet who want to contribute.  If they've
got git-send-email set up and want to use that, we explicitly tell them
that they can.  But for those who don't, we suggest they make a PR which is
most likely something they already know how to do.  If you're already a
contributor, just keep doing what you're doing.

The only reason I could imagine to not make this change would be because
someone is hoping that new people will come in and join the git-send-email
camp and slow down the advance of GitLab.  The reality is that the majority
of mesa development is happening on GitLab these days anyway so people seem
to like it.

--Jason
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Re: [Mesa-dev] [MR] Update README to recommend MRs instead of `git send-email`

[Kristian Høgsberg]

On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 12:17 AM Daniel Stone  wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> On Sat, 6 Jul 2019 at 18:39, Ilia Mirkin  wrote:
> > I see this as driving away contributions, esp from new people. MR's
> > are annoying to create, since they require dealing with the hosting
> > provider, getting it to host clones, etc. Everyone has email.
>
> My position - and the evidence of velocity from projects who have
> switched - is already pretty clear, but you might be interested to
> read that even kernel.org admins are trying to move away from email:
> https://people.kernel.org/monsieuricon/patches-carved-into-developer-sigchains

I have the same experience - I've used git since before it was usable
and I'm more than happy to not have to worry about making git
send-email work. I'm pretty sure that gitlab in general lowers the bar
for contributions considerably, I know I find my self doing a lot more
reviews and drive-by comments because of how easy it feels.

> Cheers,
> Daniel
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Re: [Mesa-dev] [MR] Update README to recommend MRs instead of `git send-email`

[Daniel Stone]

Hi,

On Sat, 6 Jul 2019 at 18:39, Ilia Mirkin  wrote:
> I see this as driving away contributions, esp from new people. MR's
> are annoying to create, since they require dealing with the hosting
> provider, getting it to host clones, etc. Everyone has email.

My position - and the evidence of velocity from projects who have
switched - is already pretty clear, but you might be interested to
read that even kernel.org admins are trying to move away from email:
https://people.kernel.org/monsieuricon/patches-carved-into-developer-sigchains

Cheers,
Daniel
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Re: [Mesa-dev] [MR] Update README to recommend MRs instead of `git send-email`

[Ernst Sjöstrand]

git send-email with a gmail account is quite messy IMHO, I'd much
rather do a pull request.

Regards
//Ernst

Den mån 8 juli 2019 kl 15:32 skrev Eric Engestrom :
>
> On Saturday, 2019-07-06 13:39:16 -0400, Ilia Mirkin wrote:
> > I see this as driving away contributions, esp from new people. MR's
> > are annoying to create, since they require dealing with the hosting
> > provider, getting it to host clones, etc. Everyone has email.
>
> MRs have a one-time cost of having to create an account and forking the
> repo, I agree, although I really don't understand why a couple of you
> guys consider that cost so high...
>
> Anyway, we're not talking about preventing people from sending patches
> via email, or even just telling people not to do that, we are simply
> updating the recommendation for people who don't know where to start.
>
> As for "driving away contributions", we have noticed the exact opposite,
> which is exactly what we expected since that's what everyone else had
> been reporting as well: web interfaces instead of email make it much
> *easier* for new people to submit patches, which translated into many
> new people sending patches since we enabled MRs.
>
> On the technical side, MRs also allow things like the pre-merge CI to
> make sure we don't accidentally break the build for other people, and
> that alone is enough for many of us to want to eventually not let anyone
> push anything that hasn't gone through that CI, so while this is *not*
> what we're talking about here, let's be clear that it's the end-goal for
> many of us.
>
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> >   -ilia
> >
> > On Sat, Jul 6, 2019 at 7:41 AM Eric Engestrom  wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I sent an MR to update the README, but as pointed out there I should
> > > make sure people who don't look at MRs are also aware of it, so here is:
> > >
> > > https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mesa/mesa/merge_requests/1223
> > >
> > > ---8<---
> > > diff --git a/README.rst b/README.rst
> > > index 4ccd72eca38a0845571c..eba097e652edde48a735 100644
> > > --- a/README.rst
> > > +++ b/README.rst
> > > @@ -56,5 +56,6 @@ Contributions are welcome, and step-by-step 
> > > instructions can be found in our
> > >  documentation (`docs/submittingpatches.html
> > >  `_).
> > >
> > > -Note that Mesa uses email mailing-lists for patches submission, review 
> > > and
> > > -discussions.
> > > +We recommend using GitLab Merge Requests (MRs) for patch submission and
> > > +review, and email mailing-lists for discussions, but the old `git 
> > > send-email`
> > > +method is still accepted.
> > > --->8---
> > > ___
> > > mesa-dev mailing list
> > > mesa-dev@lists.freedesktop.org
> > > https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/mesa-dev
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Re: [Mesa-dev] [MR] Update README to recommend MRs instead of `git send-email`

[Eric Engestrom]

On Saturday, 2019-07-06 13:39:16 -0400, Ilia Mirkin wrote:
> I see this as driving away contributions, esp from new people. MR's
> are annoying to create, since they require dealing with the hosting
> provider, getting it to host clones, etc. Everyone has email.

MRs have a one-time cost of having to create an account and forking the
repo, I agree, although I really don't understand why a couple of you
guys consider that cost so high...

Anyway, we're not talking about preventing people from sending patches
via email, or even just telling people not to do that, we are simply
updating the recommendation for people who don't know where to start.

As for "driving away contributions", we have noticed the exact opposite,
which is exactly what we expected since that's what everyone else had
been reporting as well: web interfaces instead of email make it much
*easier* for new people to submit patches, which translated into many
new people sending patches since we enabled MRs.

On the technical side, MRs also allow things like the pre-merge CI to
make sure we don't accidentally break the build for other people, and
that alone is enough for many of us to want to eventually not let anyone
push anything that hasn't gone through that CI, so while this is *not*
what we're talking about here, let's be clear that it's the end-goal for
many of us.

> 
> Cheers,
> 
>   -ilia
> 
> On Sat, Jul 6, 2019 at 7:41 AM Eric Engestrom  wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I sent an MR to update the README, but as pointed out there I should
> > make sure people who don't look at MRs are also aware of it, so here is:
> >
> > https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mesa/mesa/merge_requests/1223
> >
> > ---8<---
> > diff --git a/README.rst b/README.rst
> > index 4ccd72eca38a0845571c..eba097e652edde48a735 100644
> > --- a/README.rst
> > +++ b/README.rst
> > @@ -56,5 +56,6 @@ Contributions are welcome, and step-by-step instructions 
> > can be found in our
> >  documentation (`docs/submittingpatches.html
> >  `_).
> >
> > -Note that Mesa uses email mailing-lists for patches submission, review and
> > -discussions.
> > +We recommend using GitLab Merge Requests (MRs) for patch submission and
> > +review, and email mailing-lists for discussions, but the old `git 
> > send-email`
> > +method is still accepted.
> > --->8---
> > ___
> > mesa-dev mailing list
> > mesa-dev@lists.freedesktop.org
> > https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/mesa-dev
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Re: [Mesa-dev] [MR] Update README to recommend MRs instead of `git send-email`

[Ilia Mirkin]

I see this as driving away contributions, esp from new people. MR's
are annoying to create, since they require dealing with the hosting
provider, getting it to host clones, etc. Everyone has email.

Cheers,

  -ilia

On Sat, Jul 6, 2019 at 7:41 AM Eric Engestrom  wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I sent an MR to update the README, but as pointed out there I should
> make sure people who don't look at MRs are also aware of it, so here is:
>
> https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mesa/mesa/merge_requests/1223
>
> ---8<---
> diff --git a/README.rst b/README.rst
> index 4ccd72eca38a0845571c..eba097e652edde48a735 100644
> --- a/README.rst
> +++ b/README.rst
> @@ -56,5 +56,6 @@ Contributions are welcome, and step-by-step instructions 
> can be found in our
>  documentation (`docs/submittingpatches.html
>  `_).
>
> -Note that Mesa uses email mailing-lists for patches submission, review and
> -discussions.
> +We recommend using GitLab Merge Requests (MRs) for patch submission and
> +review, and email mailing-lists for discussions, but the old `git send-email`
> +method is still accepted.
> --->8---
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[Mesa-dev] [MR] Update README to recommend MRs instead of `git send-email`

[Eric Engestrom]

Hi,

I sent an MR to update the README, but as pointed out there I should
make sure people who don't look at MRs are also aware of it, so here is:

https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mesa/mesa/merge_requests/1223

---8<---
diff --git a/README.rst b/README.rst
index 4ccd72eca38a0845571c..eba097e652edde48a735 100644
--- a/README.rst
+++ b/README.rst
@@ -56,5 +56,6 @@ Contributions are welcome, and step-by-step instructions can 
be found in our
 documentation (`docs/submittingpatches.html
 `_).
 
-Note that Mesa uses email mailing-lists for patches submission, review and
-discussions.
+We recommend using GitLab Merge Requests (MRs) for patch submission and
+review, and email mailing-lists for discussions, but the old `git send-email`
+method is still accepted.
--->8---
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