Re: [meteorite-list] Sorry, Martian find raises no chance of whiskey, Dr. Death
--- doctor death [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We know so little about Mars how do we know that this wasn't wasn't whiskey flowing freely? That's easy. The water in the whiskey would evaporate at Mars pressure-temps, and I think that the alcohol might as well, for that matter. Now if you have a heavy brine, or sulfuric acid, the evaporation takes longer. The possibility of some kind of long chain liquid hydrocarbons exists as well, but I am sorry, its definitely not whiskey. Now does anybody have any idea what percent of Mars surace those 20 new craters were seen in? good hunting, Ed _ Get the latest Windows Live Messenger 8.1 Beta version. Join now. http://ideas.live.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fireball report from this morning in Utah
Hi all - There's that green color again. last time it was lime green. He probably saw something, but which direction he saw it fall is another question. good hunting, Ed --- Chris Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No reports here. When you are 9 miles south of Mesquite on I15 you are actually driving west, and I don't recall a rest area around there, so I'm not sure where the guy is talking about. If you talk with him, be very careful with directions. You really feel like you are driving south on that stretch, but you aren't. Given where he apparently saw it, it sounds like it might be SE of Las Vegas somewhere. It might have been a good show from Vegas, but I don't know how much faith you'd put in witnesses who are outside at 3am g. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Michael Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 12:43 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Fireball report from this morning in Utah This is a fireball report that I just recieved. Anyone else get and reports of a possible fall in Utah/Nevada this morning? Mike Farmer Hello, I am a truck driver, i drive between Cedar City, UT and Primm, NV. I see alot of meteors and some are incredible. This morning i was driving south on I15 about 9 miles south of Mesquite, NV. I saw a green one come out of the west in a ENE track, it fell thru a thin cloud layer and grounded west of the small mountain range to the east. That range is no more than 15 miles from I15. If you stand in the rest area and look due east that is the area of impact. It stayed bright until 15 degrees above the horizon. As i have said, I see these things every night, but never this bright, never this sustained, and i have never seen one so close. Oh and it was around 3am Anyway, i wanted to share the sighting so if your up this way, maybe you can find it. Take care, Tom Cook 702-813-5304 midnight-noon 7 days __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] 100 year old meteorite story from Sweden
Hi list, I was just wondering whether, more than a year on, anyone had come across this story about a meteorite with fossilized remains inside. I have an ongoing project to collect these stories, and any weirder ones that emerge! Best wishes, Chris * Re: [meteorite-list] 100 year old meteorite story from Sweden by chris aubeck Reply to author Reply to group Hi Göran! Ah, so it was one of those stories after all! It sounds a lot like the Italian article I translated and mentioned in my last post. A part of what I do is to follow these trends as they spread across Europe, it helps build up an idea of how people first became aware of the science that surrounded them. If ever you can recall the date of the account I'd be fascinated to know it and see how it fits into the general chronology of press reports of the period. Warm regards from Madrid, Chris On 9/6/05, Göran Axelsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Chris, I haven't forget about you. I have tried to find the article again. It was publicised in a Swedish periodic called GFF, Geologiska Föreningen i Stockholms Annaler, but I haven't been able to locate the note I made about which issue it was in. Two months ago I tried to find it in the storage of the library only to find that they had removed it from the storage. 120 years of geological articles only three minutes from home gone... :-( The article in it self was about a meteorite that was observed to fall in Sweden and found in a field. If my memory doesn't fail me it was still hot when found, black on the outside and full of fossiles. Actually it turned out to be a bit of burned limestone and it was debunked either at the end of the article or in a later issue. I haven't given up on finding that article again but it will take me some more effort to find it again. I'll let you know if I find it. Thanks for the link to the fossile meteorites, I hadn't seen that article before. As a sidenote, I was on a mineral tour to Jämtland in 2002 and we visited Brunflo to collect fossiles. As we knew of the fossile meteorites found in that quarry my interest were towards the meteorites. Suddenly I found a rusty ball in a stone. No one had seen anything like that, but after the first excitement had died down we started to realise that it probably was a pyrite ball, not a meteorite. :-) /Göran chris aubeck wrote: Hi, Last year, on September 21st, I received a reply on this list from Göran Axelsson which ended, enigmatically: As a sidenote there were a meteorite found in sweden almost 100 years ago with fossiles in it. Anyone want to debunk that one? :-) /Göran I was seriously interested in seeing a copy of the original article, but unfortunately Mr. Axelsson didn't reply. Can anyone tell me anything about it? This is exactly what I collect and study. Best wishes, Chris __ __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list On 9/6/05, Göran Axelsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Chris, I haven't forget about you. I have tried to find the article again. It was publicised in a Swedish periodic called GFF, Geologiska Föreningen i Stockholms Annaler, but I haven't been able to locate the note I made about which issue it was in. Two months ago I tried to find it in the storage of the library only to find that they had removed it from the storage. 120 years of geological articles only three minutes from home gone... :-( The article in it self was about a meteorite that was observed to fall in Sweden and found in a field. If my memory doesn't fail me it was still hot when found, black on the outside and full of fossiles. Actually it turned out to be a bit of burned limestone and it was debunked either at the end of the article or in a later issue. I haven't given up on finding that article again but it will take me some more effort to find it again. I'll let you know if I find it. Thanks for the link to the fossile meteorites, I hadn't seen that article before. As a sidenote, I was on a mineral tour to Jämtland in 2002 and we visited Brunflo to collect fossiles. As we knew of the fossile meteorites found in that quarry my interest were towards the meteorites. Suddenly I found a rusty ball in a stone. No one had seen anything like that, but after the first excitement had died down we started to realise that it probably was a pyrite ball, not a meteorite. :-) /Göran chris aubeck wrote: Hi, Last year, on September 21st, I received a reply on this list from Göran Axelsson which ended, enigmatically: As a sidenote there were a meteorite found in sweden almost 100 years ago with fossiles in it. Anyone want to debunk that one? :-) /Göran I was
[meteorite-list] Meteorite's mystery puts Bruce between a rock and a hard place.
I have no url for this article but I thought I'd share it here just in case it interested anyone. Chris From the Central Northern Burnett Times, 9.11.06 Meteorite's mystery puts Bruce between a rock and a hard place. Bruce Jamieson has brought to the attention of the Central Northern Burnett Times a 40 year-old mystery of a hard black rock, thought to be a meteorite, which could not be dug out at the time, and remains buried to this day. Mr Jamieson passed the Times on to one of the few men left alive who saw the mysterious black rock, Jack Byron. Mr Byron said the mysterious hard rock was found by a farmer, Arnold Schuurs, in the 1960's who had a swamp on his property that he wanted to build a little dam to retain water in dry times. When Mr Schuurs got someone with a small dozer to start to dig they came across this hard black rock that they could not break. He barely scratched it, Mr Byron said. The dozer driver backed out and went around to a different side of the swamp and again struck this hard rock leading to speculation that it was quite large, probably as big as a football field, according to Mr Byron. As it was only a small dozer, it was not buried very deeply, he said. He said at the time a geologist in the area identified it as a meteorite but no samples or tests were taken. At the time, Mr Schuurs swore to secrecy the small number of people, who knew about the mysterious meteorite, including Mr Byron, as he did not want people trampling all about his property. With the progress of time, Mr Byron, who now resides at Tannum Sands, is the only one close by who saw the black mass. There is one other man left, but he lives interstate, so Mr Byron, in his 80's, decided to tell his secret, so it would not die with him. The property where the mysterious black rock was found is about 7 km North of Monto on the Burnett highway, now owned by the Rogers family. Mr Jamieson, a Monto councillor, said the council made an attempt to find the mysterious rock, but could not find it. They placed a marker where they thought it might be. The swamp is now bone dry since the drought, and now would be an ideal time to dig and try to find it, said Mr Jamieson. He said if it was found, and if it was a meteorite, it could be of both scientific and tourism interest. Mr Jamieson said it could be a meterorite or a volcanic intrusion, but Monto's 40 year-old meteorite mystery is yet to be solved. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Martian Find Raises Chances of Life
Well, reading between the sensationalist headlines, it could very well be liquid co2 or even just dust, they don't know, - (but as usual people seem to be staring past the other options in favour of 'here's water therefore there's life' ). Not true - water does not mean there is life. Water is one tiny component needed to support life, yes. But an ATMOSPHERE and some ATMOSPHERIC PRESSURE would be a good start too...!. mark From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave Freeman mjwy Sent: 06 December 2006 17:22 To: Ron Baalke Cc: Meteorite Mailing List Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Martian Find Raises Chances of Life Dear Ron, Other scientists with paleobotanical background, Dirk; What are the chances of stromatolite fossils actually being found on Mars? I am turning blue from holding my breath. Anyone care to venture any odds of a rock with laminations being found? Banded Iron Formation or Prokaryotae? Best, Dave Freeman Dealing in Archean Earth stromatolites eBay ID mjwy STROMATOLITE-GUIDE-or-finding-the-Rodney-Dangerfield_W0QQugidZ102432833 Ron Baalke wrote: http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1c=Articlecid=1165406828171call_pageid=968332188492 Martian find raises chances of life ALICIA CHANG ASSOCIATED PRESS December 6, 2006 LOS ANGELES - A provocative new study of photographs taken from orbit suggests that liquid water flowed on the surface of Mars as recently as Several years ago, raising the possibility that the Red Planet could harbour an environment favourable to life. The crisp images taken by the Mars Global Surveyor do not directly show water. Rather, they show apparently recent changes in surface features that provide the strongest evidence yet that water even now sometimes flows on the dusty, frigid world. Water and a stable heat source are considered keys for life to emerge. Until now, the question of liquid water has focused on ancient Mars, and on the Martian north pole, where water ice has been detected. Scientists have long noted Martian features that appear to have been scoured by water or look like shorelines, and have tried to prove that the Red Planet had liquid water eons ago. This underscores the importance of searching for life on Mars, either present or past, said Bruce Jakosky, an astrobiologist at the University of Colorado at Boulder, who had no role in the study. It's one more reason to think that life could be there.'' The new findings were published Wednesday in the journal Science and NASA scheduled a news conference for Wednesday afternoon to announce the results. Oded Aharonson, an assistant professor of planetary science at the California Institute of Technology, said that while the interpretation of recent water activity on Mars was compelling, it's just one possible explanation. Aharonson said further study is needed to determine whether the deposit could have been left there by the flow of dust rather than water. The latest research emerged when the Global Surveyor spotted gullies and trenches that scientists believed were geologically young and carved by fast-moving water coursing down cliffs and steep crater walls. Scientists at the San Diego-based Malin Space Science Systems, who operate a camera aboard the spacecraft, decided to retake photos of thousands of gullies in search of evidence of recent water activity. Two gullies that were originally photographed in 1999 and 2001 and re-imaged in 2004 and 2005 showed changes consistent with water flowing down the crater walls, according to the study. In both cases, scientists found bright, light-colored deposits in the gullies that weren't present in the original photos. They concluded the deposits - possibly mud, salt or frost - were left there when water recently cascaded through the channels. The Global Surveyor, managed by NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, abruptly lost radio contact with Earth last month. Attempts to locate the spacecraft, which has mapped Mars since 1996, have failed and scientists fear it is unusable. NASA's durable Mars rovers have sent scientists strong evidence that the planet once had liquid water at or near the surface, based on observations of alterations in ancient rocks. We're now realizing Mars is more active than we previously thought and that the mid-latitude section seems to be where all the action is, said Arizona State University scientist Phil Christensen, who was not part of the current research. Mars formed more than 4.5 billion years ago and scientists generally believe it went through an early wet and warm era that ended after 1.5 billion to 2.5 billion years, leaving the planet extremely dry and cold. Water can't remain a liquid for long because of subzero surface temperatures and low atmospheric pressure that would turn water into ice or gas. But some studies have pointed to the possibility of liquid water flowing
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[meteorite-list] (AD) trade offer
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[meteorite-list] Rocks From Space Picture of the Day - December 07, 2006
http://www.spacerocksinc.com/December_7.html __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Martian Find Raises Chances of Life
Yes, agreed naturally, and I am not saying there possibly isn't life out there, and we should be interested in Mars absolutley, BUT - caution, a few wet streaks down a hillside is a million miles away from there being alien life forms on mars. I bet there are planets out there in space with entire oceans but no life... I just feel there should be much more direct evidence of life on mars, it's everywhere you look on earth, if there is martian life it's certainly doing its best to not show itself - it's just a very thin case at the moment (imho) The difference with the advanced, well adapted extremophiles on earth is, basically there is little evidence that they evolved before other life forms, So it is reasonable to assume they evolved from other life forms to thrive in these harsher environments, therefore you would need an earth like place to start life off in the first place (as far as we know it), mars is looking quite different, but interesting none the less. Really I just question the assumption that's being made, 'that anywhere in the solar system with a patch of water' will spawn life - on earth it took billions of years and a lot of near perfect environmental factors, to even start it, then it is still quite fragile even after billions of years of a good atmosphere and plenty of stable environmental factors, and an atmosphere don't forget mars is very very hostile, very very low pressure, very cold, high UV, high radiation, and [mostly] dry. Just my 2 cents worth. Mark -Original Message- From: Greg Redfern [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 07 December 2006 11:58 To: mark ford; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Martian Find Raises Chances of Life Hi List, I just want to point out that a whole class of life here on Earth - Extremophiles - have been found to be living in the most hostile places such as ocean thermal vents and other places with extreme cold and heat. There is also a search underway for life within the interior of the Chesapeake Bay Impact Crater (CBIC) which would mimic in many ways a Martian crater with liquid water underground as the NASA MGS photos suggest may be happening. A biologist on last year's CBIC core sample expedition stated that the life forms they are 99% sure exist within CBIC would eat rock using enzymes, live in extreme pressure and heat in an anaerobic environment. The lead biologist on the team is using this research and possible findings to apply to a similar search for life on Mars. The Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter (MRO) and the August 2007 lift off the Phoenix Lander will give us more data on this whole question. After all, extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence. But I for one believe that life is a very powerful force that finds a way to exist in a wide variety of circumstances. Personally, and I emphasize personally, I am pretty sure that MGS recorded an outburst of underground water in those craters at Centauri Montes and Terra Sirenum. Disturbances caused by dust devils, wind and our own Rovers leave DARK traces of their activity. It is very hard to make light toned artifacts on Mars. Even looking at the new impact craters revealed they were for the most part dark impact sites - even the ejecta, although one new crater in Arabia Terra had light toned ejecta. Bottom line is that Mars is a very, very interesting and dynamic planet to explore. I can hardly wait for the more powerful MRO camera nd its suite of instruments to return data on these two gullies. All the best, Greg Redfern NASA JPL Solar System Ambassador http://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/ambassador/index.html WHAT'S UP?: THE SPACE PLACE http://www.wtopnews.com/?sid=600113nid=421 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of mark ford Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 5:41 AM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Martian Find Raises Chances of Life Well, reading between the sensationalist headlines, it could very well be liquid co2 or even just dust, they don't know, - (but as usual people seem to be staring past the other options in favour of 'here's water therefore there's life' ). Not true - water does not mean there is life. Water is one tiny component needed to support life, yes. But an ATMOSPHERE and some ATMOSPHERIC PRESSURE would be a good start too...!. mark From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave Freeman mjwy Sent: 06 December 2006 17:22 To: Ron Baalke Cc: Meteorite Mailing List Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Martian Find Raises Chances of Life Dear Ron, Other scientists with paleobotanical background, Dirk; What are the chances of stromatolite fossils actually being found on Mars? I am turning blue from holding my breath. Anyone care to venture any odds of a rock with laminations being found? Banded Iron Formation or Prokaryotae? Best, Dave Freeman Dealing in Archean Earth
Re: [meteorite-list] Martian Find Raises Chances of Life
on earth it took billions of years and a lot of near perfect environmental factors, to even start it Hi, Mark, Actually, it only took life one billion years to sprout, and under very hostile and poisonous conditions! Life seems to be unstoppable! http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2004/10.07/15-origins.html http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/neo/life.html Cheers, Pete From: mark ford [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Martian Find Raises Chances of Life Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 13:39:19 - Yes, agreed naturally, and I am not saying there possibly isn't life out there, and we should be interested in Mars absolutley, BUT - caution, a few wet streaks down a hillside is a million miles away from there being alien life forms on mars. I bet there are planets out there in space with entire oceans but no life... I just feel there should be much more direct evidence of life on mars, it's everywhere you look on earth, if there is martian life it's certainly doing its best to not show itself - it's just a very thin case at the moment (imho) The difference with the advanced, well adapted extremophiles on earth is, basically there is little evidence that they evolved before other life forms, So it is reasonable to assume they evolved from other life forms to thrive in these harsher environments, therefore you would need an earth like place to start life off in the first place (as far as we know it), mars is looking quite different, but interesting none the less. Really I just question the assumption that's being made, 'that anywhere in the solar system with a patch of water' will spawn life - on earth it took billions of years and a lot of near perfect environmental factors, to even start it, then it is still quite fragile even after billions of years of a good atmosphere and plenty of stable environmental factors, and an atmosphere don't forget mars is very very hostile, very very low pressure, very cold, high UV, high radiation, and [mostly] dry. Just my 2 cents worth. Mark -Original Message- From: Greg Redfern [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 07 December 2006 11:58 To: mark ford; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Martian Find Raises Chances of Life Hi List, I just want to point out that a whole class of life here on Earth - Extremophiles - have been found to be living in the most hostile places such as ocean thermal vents and other places with extreme cold and heat. There is also a search underway for life within the interior of the Chesapeake Bay Impact Crater (CBIC) which would mimic in many ways a Martian crater with liquid water underground as the NASA MGS photos suggest may be happening. A biologist on last year's CBIC core sample expedition stated that the life forms they are 99% sure exist within CBIC would eat rock using enzymes, live in extreme pressure and heat in an anaerobic environment. The lead biologist on the team is using this research and possible findings to apply to a similar search for life on Mars. The Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter (MRO) and the August 2007 lift off the Phoenix Lander will give us more data on this whole question. After all, extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence. But I for one believe that life is a very powerful force that finds a way to exist in a wide variety of circumstances. Personally, and I emphasize personally, I am pretty sure that MGS recorded an outburst of underground water in those craters at Centauri Montes and Terra Sirenum. Disturbances caused by dust devils, wind and our own Rovers leave DARK traces of their activity. It is very hard to make light toned artifacts on Mars. Even looking at the new impact craters revealed they were for the most part dark impact sites - even the ejecta, although one new crater in Arabia Terra had light toned ejecta. Bottom line is that Mars is a very, very interesting and dynamic planet to explore. I can hardly wait for the more powerful MRO camera nd its suite of instruments to return data on these two gullies. All the best, Greg Redfern NASA JPL Solar System Ambassador http://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/ambassador/index.html WHAT'S UP?: THE SPACE PLACE http://www.wtopnews.com/?sid=600113nid=421 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of mark ford Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 5:41 AM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Martian Find Raises Chances of Life Well, reading between the sensationalist headlines, it could very well be liquid co2 or even just dust, they don't know, - (but as usual people seem to be staring past the other options in favour of 'here's water therefore there's life' ). Not true - water does not mean there is life. Water is one tiny component needed to support life, yes. But an ATMOSPHERE and some ATMOSPHERIC PRESSURE would be a good start too...!. mark From:
Re: [meteorite-list] Martian Find Raises Chances of Life
Life seems to be unstoppable! Yes it is unstoppable, but the question is how 'un-startable' is it?! -Original Message- From: Pete Pete [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 07 December 2006 14:33 To: mark ford; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Martian Find Raises Chances of Life on earth it took billions of years and a lot of near perfect environmental factors, to even start it Hi, Mark, Actually, it only took life one billion years to sprout, and under very hostile and poisonous conditions! Life seems to be unstoppable! http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2004/10.07/15-origins.html http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/neo/life.html Cheers, Pete From: mark ford [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Martian Find Raises Chances of Life Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 13:39:19 - Yes, agreed naturally, and I am not saying there possibly isn't life out there, and we should be interested in Mars absolutley, BUT - caution, a few wet streaks down a hillside is a million miles away from there being alien life forms on mars. I bet there are planets out there in space with entire oceans but no life... I just feel there should be much more direct evidence of life on mars, it's everywhere you look on earth, if there is martian life it's certainly doing its best to not show itself - it's just a very thin case at the moment (imho) The difference with the advanced, well adapted extremophiles on earth is, basically there is little evidence that they evolved before other life forms, So it is reasonable to assume they evolved from other life forms to thrive in these harsher environments, therefore you would need an earth like place to start life off in the first place (as far as we know it), mars is looking quite different, but interesting none the less. Really I just question the assumption that's being made, 'that anywhere in the solar system with a patch of water' will spawn life - on earth it took billions of years and a lot of near perfect environmental factors, to even start it, then it is still quite fragile even after billions of years of a good atmosphere and plenty of stable environmental factors, and an atmosphere don't forget mars is very very hostile, very very low pressure, very cold, high UV, high radiation, and [mostly] dry. Just my 2 cents worth. Mark -Original Message- From: Greg Redfern [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 07 December 2006 11:58 To: mark ford; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Martian Find Raises Chances of Life Hi List, I just want to point out that a whole class of life here on Earth - Extremophiles - have been found to be living in the most hostile places such as ocean thermal vents and other places with extreme cold and heat. There is also a search underway for life within the interior of the Chesapeake Bay Impact Crater (CBIC) which would mimic in many ways a Martian crater with liquid water underground as the NASA MGS photos suggest may be happening. A biologist on last year's CBIC core sample expedition stated that the life forms they are 99% sure exist within CBIC would eat rock using enzymes, live in extreme pressure and heat in an anaerobic environment. The lead biologist on the team is using this research and possible findings to apply to a similar search for life on Mars. The Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter (MRO) and the August 2007 lift off the Phoenix Lander will give us more data on this whole question. After all, extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence. But I for one believe that life is a very powerful force that finds a way to exist in a wide variety of circumstances. Personally, and I emphasize personally, I am pretty sure that MGS recorded an outburst of underground water in those craters at Centauri Montes and Terra Sirenum. Disturbances caused by dust devils, wind and our own Rovers leave DARK traces of their activity. It is very hard to make light toned artifacts on Mars. Even looking at the new impact craters revealed they were for the most part dark impact sites - even the ejecta, although one new crater in Arabia Terra had light toned ejecta. Bottom line is that Mars is a very, very interesting and dynamic planet to explore. I can hardly wait for the more powerful MRO camera nd its suite of instruments to return data on these two gullies. All the best, Greg Redfern NASA JPL Solar System Ambassador http://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/ambassador/index.html WHAT'S UP?: THE SPACE PLACE http://www.wtopnews.com/?sid=600113nid=421 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of mark ford Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 5:41 AM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Martian Find Raises Chances of Life Well, reading between the sensationalist headlines, it could very well be liquid co2 or even just dust, they don't know, - (but as usual people seem to be
Re: [meteorite-list] Martian Find Raises Chances of Life
Hi List! Mark wrote: Life seems to be unstoppable! Yes it is unstoppable, but the question is how 'un-startable' is it?! A theory says that: Also if the Earth will hit by a big asteroid and tears into pieces/asteroids (forming a new asteroid belt), you still will find life on these asteroids. But, I can't remember who said this and when. Cheers, Ingo -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von mark ford Gesendet: Donnerstag, 7. Dezember 2006 15:52 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Martian Find Raises Chances of Life Life seems to be unstoppable! Yes it is unstoppable, but the question is how 'un-startable' is it?! -Original Message- From: Pete Pete [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 07 December 2006 14:33 To: mark ford; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Martian Find Raises Chances of Life on earth it took billions of years and a lot of near perfect environmental factors, to even start it Hi, Mark, Actually, it only took life one billion years to sprout, and under very hostile and poisonous conditions! Life seems to be unstoppable! http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2004/10.07/15-origins.html http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/neo/life.html Cheers, Pete From: mark ford [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Martian Find Raises Chances of Life Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 13:39:19 - Yes, agreed naturally, and I am not saying there possibly isn't life out there, and we should be interested in Mars absolutley, BUT - caution, a few wet streaks down a hillside is a million miles away from there being alien life forms on mars. I bet there are planets out there in space with entire oceans but no life... I just feel there should be much more direct evidence of life on mars, it's everywhere you look on earth, if there is martian life it's certainly doing its best to not show itself - it's just a very thin case at the moment (imho) The difference with the advanced, well adapted extremophiles on earth is, basically there is little evidence that they evolved before other life forms, So it is reasonable to assume they evolved from other life forms to thrive in these harsher environments, therefore you would need an earth like place to start life off in the first place (as far as we know it), mars is looking quite different, but interesting none the less. Really I just question the assumption that's being made, 'that anywhere in the solar system with a patch of water' will spawn life - on earth it took billions of years and a lot of near perfect environmental factors, to even start it, then it is still quite fragile even after billions of years of a good atmosphere and plenty of stable environmental factors, and an atmosphere don't forget mars is very very hostile, very very low pressure, very cold, high UV, high radiation, and [mostly] dry. Just my 2 cents worth. Mark -Original Message- From: Greg Redfern [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 07 December 2006 11:58 To: mark ford; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Martian Find Raises Chances of Life Hi List, I just want to point out that a whole class of life here on Earth - Extremophiles - have been found to be living in the most hostile places such as ocean thermal vents and other places with extreme cold and heat. There is also a search underway for life within the interior of the Chesapeake Bay Impact Crater (CBIC) which would mimic in many ways a Martian crater with liquid water underground as the NASA MGS photos suggest may be happening. A biologist on last year's CBIC core sample expedition stated that the life forms they are 99% sure exist within CBIC would eat rock using enzymes, live in extreme pressure and heat in an anaerobic environment. The lead biologist on the team is using this research and possible findings to apply to a similar search for life on Mars. The Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter (MRO) and the August 2007 lift off the Phoenix Lander will give us more data on this whole question. After all, extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence. But I for one believe that life is a very powerful force that finds a way to exist in a wide variety of circumstances. Personally, and I emphasize personally, I am pretty sure that MGS recorded an outburst of underground water in those craters at Centauri Montes and Terra Sirenum. Disturbances caused by dust devils, wind and our own Rovers leave DARK traces of their activity. It is very hard to make light toned artifacts on Mars. Even looking at the new impact craters revealed they were for the most part dark impact sites - even the ejecta, although one new crater in Arabia Terra had light toned ejecta. Bottom line is that Mars is a very, very interesting and dynamic planet to explore. I can hardly wait for the more powerful MRO camera nd its suite of instruments to
Re: [meteorite-list] Fireball report from this morning in Utah
Color perception varies considerably between people (just ask who sees color in stars and who doesn't). About a third of people report no color in fireballs; most of the rest see some variation of green, ranging from pale lime to bluish. This is probably caused by the 558 nm forbidden oxygen emission line, mixed to varying degrees with a white thermal emission. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: E.P. Grondine [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 1:07 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fireball report from this morning in Utah Hi all - There's that green color again. last time it was lime green. He probably saw something, but which direction he saw it fall is another question. good hunting, Ed __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fireball report from this morning in Utah
HI Chris - --- Chris Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: most of the rest see some variation of green, ranging from pale lime to bluish. This is probably caused by the 558 nm forbidden oxygen emission line, mixed to varying degrees with a white thermal emission. What is this? I remember that the first of the two fireballs which I have seen was so green I thought it was a re-entering war-head. Ed Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] AD: Large one cent ebay sal tonight!
Hi, I have just arrived home from an extended overseas trip (extremely successful trip at that, but more on it later). I have a very nice large meteorite sale ending tonight on eBay! Well over $5,000 in meteorites up for grabs, ALL started at one cent! Look at these superb pieces, just a tip of the iceburg. http://cgi.ebay.com/_W0QQitemZ130055655571 Dhofar 1178 (LL4) Main mass, entire stone up for sale! This large piece is 711 grams. http://cgi.ebay.com/_W0QQitemZ130054921338 This is a perfect Bullet Sikhote-Alin, with literally thousands of flow lines! Not many like this to be seen! http://cgi.ebay.com/_W0QQitemZ170057720582 LARGE complete Pallasite slice. http://cgi.ebay.com/_W0QQitemZ170057735825 LARGE mesosiderite endct, 57 grams. http://cgi.ebay.com/_W0QQitemZ130055751894 Large complete Gibeon slice. http://cgi.ebay.com/_W0QQitemZ170057719233 Large complete Muonionalusta slice. http://cgi.ebay.com/_W0QQitemZ170040325686 MARS rock, partslice of DAG 476, 0.32 gram. This is just a tiny taste of the more than 50 meteorites ending tonight! I don't want to dilute it with too many listed here, just some key pieces. See all of the meteorites offered at the links below. http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZmeteoritehunters http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZmeteorite-hunter http://www.meteoritehunter.com thanks Michael Farmer Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fireball report from this morning in Utah
Ed- Reentering objects are responsible for only a tiny fraction of fireballs- well under 1% based on my empirical data. I think Marco has looked at this, too... he might have better numbers. In any case, while you certainly might have seen space junk, natural meteors are much more likely. There seems to be a strong correlation between color and speed, with slow objects being seen as bright green, and faster objects seen as pale green or white. I expect that is simply because the faster objects are hotter, and the white blackbody output is swamping the fainter oxygen emission. Reentering space junk is slow, and is usually reported as green. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: E.P. Grondine [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 9:00 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fireball report from this morning in Utah HI Chris - --- Chris Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: most of the rest see some variation of green, ranging from pale lime to bluish. This is probably caused by the 558 nm forbidden oxygen emission line, mixed to varying degrees with a white thermal emission. What is this? I remember that the first of the two fireballs which I have seen was so green I thought it was a re-entering war-head. Ed __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] December Meteorite-Times is now up
Hello Everyone! The December Meteorite-Times is now posted. http://www.meteorite-times.com/ Enjoy! Paul and Jim ** Paul Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jim Tobin [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Meteorite Exchange, Inc. http://www.meteorite.com Meteorite-Times Magazine http://www.meteorite-times.com PO Box 7000-455, Redondo Beach, CA 90277 USA *** __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons
Hi Jason, Thanks for your thorough and I might say persuasive commentary on fusion crusted irons. I did note one possible discordant data. Campo del Cielo is an approximately 5000 year old fall and Nantan is 500 years old. Is the Nantan region so much worse (wetter?) that no fusion crust can be found? Also, how about the main mass of Taza? Does that have crust? If you want to share more pictures, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Mike Fowler Chicago ebay--starsandrocks Hello All, Might be a little on the tail end of this thread, but I think it still merits posting... Although there may be exceptions where an iron lacks fusion crust do to a late atmospheric breakup or weathering, as might any stony meteorite, they do, in general, possess just such a skin after having fallen to the earth. However, many peoples' opinions of what exactly this crust consists of differs greatly with regard to irons. I've seen many a Canyon Diablo or Campo regarded as possessing fusion crust, when there is truly none of the remaining original surface left, and mm if not cm of material have corroded off of the surface since the fall. That being said, the same argument applies to stony meteorites. Are any Canyon Diablo's truly crusted? I can very safely assume that no, none of them was picked up after the fall and stored away in some humidity controlled pueblo, to be rediscovered some 50,000 years later. In just about every case, they've lost several mm if not a few cm (some large specimens have rusted clear though) off of every surface, so though they could, and should, be deemed complete individuals, they are in no way, shape, or form, crusted. Campo Del Cielo Firstly, what an amazing fall. Large beautiful irons in such an abundance as to flood the market in every sense of the term. That being said, many do have a tendency to rust. And many have corroded to the point of looking like rather abstract iron potatoes or larger lumps, possessing little semblance of their original flight-marked forms, all of these traces having been removed by weathering eons ago. However, on many of the 'new Campos' of several years ago, one can find patches of fusion crust with ripples and flow lines (and even a few impact pits). Could this really be deemed fusion crust? I think so. When cut, many of the irons show a heat rim that clearly display the fact that at least some of them have not lost much, if any of their original surface. These patches are oftentimes small, but we do have one in our collection that we purchased a number of years ago that is a spectacularly oriented specimen which is visually comparable to many Sikhote-Alins, with a full side of blue-black ripples and spatters. The back is glypted, and displays much crust as well. Here's an image of the leading edge of the specimen: http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f306/JUtas/meteorites/P1010040.jpg (It's concave - hence the lack of flowlines and rippled appearance.) And the trailing edge with it's fusion crusted glypts: http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f306/JUtas/meteorites/P1010043.jpg For another example of this, I believe Matteo could provide us with a picture or two of one of his newer Campos...he posted some a while back, and they showed a very fresh-looking iron. Onto Morasko... Well, firstly, who ever said that it fell ~5,000 years ago? Firstly, I can quote Buchwald as saying in his catalogue of iron meteorites, that Fusion crusts may be detected in numerous places. The assumption that it is a glacially transported meteorite is also completely false, seeing as there are craters nearby in which specimens have actually been found that have been dated to roughly the same age as the fall itself. For photos, I'd simply go to Marcin, as he's already put some up for the more suspicious parties. It's fusion crust in those pics, you can be sure. I've seen another ~70kg individual recently myself, and am certain that it has large areas of crust. Regarding Sikhote Alin, one must tread carefully. Many individuals being found today are cleaned using ball bearings (tumbling), which, although they give the irons a pretty shine, removes much of the fusion crust. In fact, if your Sikhote's have a shiny, rather than matte look to them, they may still have some crust, but you've lost at least the majority of its thickness. Here are a few pics to show the basic differences between the two. Tumbled, with assiciated sheen: http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f306/JUtas/meteorites/DSCN1077.jpg Cleaned using some other method: http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f306/JUtas/meteorites/DSCN1091.jpg There's a clear difference between the two; on one, the flowlines have nearly disappeared altogether whereas the other even possesses some of its original compression waves formed by varying degrees
[meteorite-list] Geology Professor Speaks on Meteorites
http://newsnet.byu.edu/story.cfm/62267 Geology Professor Speaks on Meteorites By Virginia Stratford BYU News Net (Utah) December 6, 2006 Meteorites are no longer just rocks falling from the sky; they are small morsels of phenomena wedged in Antarctic ice, patiently waiting to be studied by geologists. The same number of meteorites fall on Antarctica as fall around the rest of the earth, but it's much easier to see them, said Jani Radebaugh, assistant professor of geological science at BYU and guest lecturer for the Global Awareness Lecture series sponsored by the Kennedy Center. Over 10,000 meteorite samples have been recovered in Antarctica and provide information on the composition of asteroids, planets and other solar bodies. In her lecture, Antarctic Dreams: Still Life on the Ice with Meteorites, Radebaugh shared pictures and stories from her observation trip to Antarctica to study and catalogue meteorites scattered across the southern region of the South Pole. Lots of their characteristics are still intact - one big telling thing is the very dark, outside crust where it's melted when it's come through the atmosphere, she said. That's really a dead giveaway it's a meteorite. With the Antarctic Search for Meteorites (AMSMET), Radebaugh was deployed to the deep field for six weeks to locate, identify and then take sample pieces of meteorites. The samples will then be shipped to the Lyndon B. Johnson Space Center for analysis. Unbeknownst to her research team, they discovered a rare lunar meteorite on one trip. We all kind of stumbled upon this, she said. It's got very course grains so it has cooled slowly. Radebaugh's AMSNET experience provided an opportunity to explore meteorite science first-hand, while bearing cold temperatures and living in a tent pitched on ice. We ate a tremendous amount of calories to stay warm, Radebaugh said. Every time you got cold out in the field, you had to munch on a chocolate bar or a meat stick. My friend used to say 'it's meat stick-thirty.' __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite-list Digest, Vol 36, Issue 28
In a message dated 12/7/2006 12:02:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Reentering space junk is slow, and is usually reported as green. Chris I'm guessing that 'space junk' is slower because it was in orbit, and as the orbit decayed it entered the atmosphere as a shallow angle. Then, as the atmosphere grew thicker, it slowed gradually. All of the green fireballs I've seen during my years of hiking and camping out west were close to the ground. The much smaller and more numerous ones further away always appeared white. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Elsevier Launches New Journal with the National Institute of Polar Research
http://www.elsevier.com/wps/find/authored_newsitem.cws_home/companynews05_00576 Elsevier Launches New Journal with the National Institute of Polar Research December 7, 2006 Amsterdam, - Elsevier, in partnership with the National Institute of Polar Research, proudly announce the 2007 launch of a new international peer-reviewed publication called Polar Science. The English-language quarterly journal is a consolidation of five existing publications: Polar Bioscience, Polar Meteorology and Glaciology, Antarctic Meteorite Research, Polar Geoscience and Advances in Polar Upper Atmosphere Research, and will publish original articles and reviews focused on a wide spectrum of sciences related to the polar regions of the Earth and other planets. All accepted articles will be published online via ScienceDirect Article Plus before appearing in print, thereby ensuring the rapid dissemination of research results. Professor Kazuo Shibuya of the National Institute of Polar Research (NIPR) reflected on the collaboration with Elsevier. Continuation is our strength -- this phrase by the late Emeritus Professor Masayoshi Murayama from the NIPR, characterizes the steady scientific progress obtained from Japanese Antarctic Research Expeditions. To have a jump in our steady progress, NIPR decided to publish a regular scientific journal Polar Science with Elsevier as our partner. Elsevier has a wide audience and experienced knowledge for scientific publication. Elsevier is most appropriate to realize our jump. At the beginning of the International Polar Year 2007-2008, Polar Science is determined to contribute to the next 50 years of polar science, not only from Japanese scientists but also on an international scale, especially from all Asian and Southern Hemisphere colleagues. Elsevier Publisher Friso Veenstra commented The launch of Polar Science coincides with the start of the International Polar Year 2007-2008 and shares its focus on the polar regions, where significant changes are occurring at present. The polar regions contain unique information on the past behaviour of the Earth system, while at the same time they are growing in economic and geopolitical importance. Polar Science will therefore be an important new addition to Elsevierâs earth and planetary sciences journals portfolio. We greatly look forward to our partnership with the NIPR and to achieving our shared goal of establishing a global reach and visibility for Polar Science. ### About the National Institute of Polar Research The National Institute of Polar Research was established in Tokyo in 1973 as one of the Inter-University Research Institutes of Monbusho (Ministry of Education, Science, Sports and Culture) to conduct polar research in Japan. Research activities cover various scientific disciplines, including upper atmosphere physics, meteorology, glaciology, earth sciences, biological sciences and polar region engineering. About Elsevier Society Publishing Elsevier is committed to building unique, long-lasting relationships to help societies achieve their publishing goals and provide value-added member services. Elsevier partners with more than 500 international learned societies, professional associations and research institutes. About Elsevier Elsevier is a world-leading publisher of scientific, technical and medical information products and services. Working in partnership with the global science and health communities, Elsevier's 7,000 employees in over 70 offices worldwide publish more than 2,000 journals and 1,900 new books per year, in addition to offering a suite of innovative electronic products, such as ScienceDirect, MD Consult, Scopus, bibliographic databases, and online reference works. Elsevier is a global business headquartered in Amsterdam, The Netherlands and has offices worldwide. Elsevier is part of Reed Elsevier Group plc, a world-leading publisher and information provider. Operating in the science and medical, legal, education and business-to-business sectors, Reed Elsevier provides high-quality and flexible information solutions to users, with increasing emphasis on the Internet as a means of delivery. Reed Elsevier's ticker symbols are REN (Euronext Amsterdam), REL (London Stock Exchange), RUK and ENL (New York Stock Exchange). Media Contact Kate Alzapiedi Elsevier + 31 20 485 3836 [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite-list Digest, Vol 36, Issue 28
Objects in orbit around the Earth reenter close to Earth's escape velocity, which sets the lower limit for anything entering our atmosphere (the upper limit is set by the escape velocity of the Sun at the Earth- it's unlikely that anything we encounter would be faster than that). And for the most part, as you note, reentering objects are usually in flat trajectories, so they burn much longer, and are likely to slow down enough to stop burning before vaporizing. The Air Force has a group whose mission is to recover fallen junk. I'm not sure what you mean by close to the ground- anything you saw was probably more than 20 miles high, with 50 being more likely. There's no way to tell by eye how high a fireball actually is. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 12:17 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite-list Digest, Vol 36, Issue 28 I'm guessing that 'space junk' is slower because it was in orbit, and as the orbit decayed it entered the atmosphere as a shallow angle. Then, as the atmosphere grew thicker, it slowed gradually. All of the green fireballs I've seen during my years of hiking and camping out west were close to the ground. The much smaller and more numerous ones further away always appeared white. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite-list Digest, Vol 36, Issue 28
Hi, Visual, Chris, List For the benefit of Listees following the question of how slow a meteoroid can be... The orbital velocity for any body is maximally the escape velocity divided by the square root of 2, or 70.707070707...%. Can we just call that 71%? Escape velocity is 11,263.04 meters per second. So, the highest orbital velocity is 7964.17 meters per second. That's the orbital velocity at the lowest possible orbit, skimming over the surface. The orbital velocity gets less and less the higher the orbit, so that geo- synchronous orbital velocity is positively pokey, around 3000 meters per second. You have to go faster than that just to get there, then slow down to stay there. Crazy stuff, that gravity. The only orbit that can decay is one close enough to the top of the atmosphere to be slowed into re-entry. But (big but), the only way an object from somewhere not of this earth can get to the top of our atmosphere is to fall there, in the course of which fall, it will acquire additional velocity, up to escape velocity. Escape velocity is like taxes, in that there just doesn't seem to be any way to wiggle out. By the time an object gets to the top of the atmosphere, it will have acquired all of escape velocity except that which it would (try to) pick up in the last 50 miles. By even the Earth's escape velocity of 22,263 mps is quite slow compared to the approach of most meteoroids. Leonids are among the fastest (70,000 mps) in approach velocity (theirs and ours). Most objects from the asteroid zone are going to intercept Earth at twice our escape velocity or more. The slow fireball is a rarity, but the one most likely to get something to the ground. The statistics of meteorites (on the ground) are misleading: irons are much rarer than their proportion on our collections. It's just that they can withstand re-entry so much better than rocks and that they can persist longer in an Earth environment than mere rocks do. In re-entry, irons are better than rocks; slow rocks are better than fast ones; big rocks are better than little ones. A meteorite in the hand is better than 1000 in freefall. Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: Chris Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 5:48 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite-list Digest, Vol 36, Issue 28 Objects in orbit around the Earth reenter close to Earth's escape velocity, which sets the lower limit for anything entering our atmosphere (the upper limit is set by the escape velocity of the Sun at the Earth- it's unlikely that anything we encounter would be faster than that). And for the most part, as you note, reentering objects are usually in flat trajectories, so they burn much longer, and are likely to slow down enough to stop burning before vaporizing. The Air Force has a group whose mission is to recover fallen junk. I'm not sure what you mean by close to the ground- anything you saw was probably more than 20 miles high, with 50 being more likely. There's no way to tell by eye how high a fireball actually is. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 12:17 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite-list Digest, Vol 36, Issue 28 I'm guessing that 'space junk' is slower because it was in orbit, and as the orbit decayed it entered the atmosphere as a shallow angle. Then, as the atmosphere grew thicker, it slowed gradually. All of the green fireballs I've seen during my years of hiking and camping out west were close to the ground. The much smaller and more numerous ones further away always appeared white. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite-list Digest, Vol 36, Issue 28
Comet Tempel-Tuttle, the parent body of the Leonids, is in a low-inclination, retrograde orbit. We encounter the debris at 71 km/s, and our own orbital speed is 29.6 km/s. Subtract that out and you get the orbital speed for Leonid meteoroids: ~41.4 km/s. The solar escape velocity at the Earth is 42.1 km/s. That's why the Leonids are as fast as any periodic meteors can be- faster meteoroids would leave the Solar System. Of course, a sporadic meteor could be produced by a body that would escape the Solar System if it didn't encounter the Earth- either because it originated outside the Solar System, or because it picked up enough energy through momentum transfer during some sort of slingshot around another body. I don't know if anybody has worked out the likelihood of that happening- very, very rare I'm sure. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Chris Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 8:30 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite-list Digest, Vol 36, Issue 28 Hi, Visual, Chris, List For the benefit of Listees following the question of how slow a meteoroid can be... The orbital velocity for any body is maximally the escape velocity divided by the square root of 2, or 70.707070707...%. Can we just call that 71%? Escape velocity is 11,263.04 meters per second. So, the highest orbital velocity is 7964.17 meters per second. That's the orbital velocity at the lowest possible orbit, skimming over the surface. The orbital velocity gets less and less the higher the orbit, so that geo- synchronous orbital velocity is positively pokey, around 3000 meters per second. You have to go faster than that just to get there, then slow down to stay there. Crazy stuff, that gravity. The only orbit that can decay is one close enough to the top of the atmosphere to be slowed into re-entry. But (big but), the only way an object from somewhere not of this earth can get to the top of our atmosphere is to fall there, in the course of which fall, it will acquire additional velocity, up to escape velocity. Escape velocity is like taxes, in that there just doesn't seem to be any way to wiggle out. By the time an object gets to the top of the atmosphere, it will have acquired all of escape velocity except that which it would (try to) pick up in the last 50 miles. By even the Earth's escape velocity of 22,263 mps is quite slow compared to the approach of most meteoroids. Leonids are among the fastest (70,000 mps) in approach velocity (theirs and ours). Most objects from the asteroid zone are going to intercept Earth at twice our escape velocity or more. The slow fireball is a rarity, but the one most likely to get something to the ground. The statistics of meteorites (on the ground) are misleading: irons are much rarer than their proportion on our collections. It's just that they can withstand re-entry so much better than rocks and that they can persist longer in an Earth environment than mere rocks do. In re-entry, irons are better than rocks; slow rocks are better than fast ones; big rocks are better than little ones. A meteorite in the hand is better than 1000 in freefall. Sterling K. Webb __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Future Dimming for Arecibo Telescope (Asteroid 99942 Apophis)
Hi Ron all, Below: The telescope is so prized that astronomers let out a collective shudder in November when a review panel recommended the U.S. cut 25 percent of the observatory's $10.5 million astronomy budget next year and consider eliminating it entirely at the end of the decade. From the post on Monday: [meteorite-list] The Threat is Out There (Asteroid 99942 Apophis) http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/2006-December/028906.html NASA, however, is taking a wait-and-see attitude. An analysis by Steven Chesley of the Near Earth Object program at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) in Pasadena, Calif., concludes that we can safely sit tight until 2013. That's when Apophis swings by Earth in prime position for tracking by the 1000-ft.-dia. radio telescope in Arecibo, Puerto Rico. Mmm! Cheers, Jeff - Original Message - From: Ron Baalke To: Meteorite Mailing List Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 4:14 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Future Dimming for Arecibo Telescope http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/12/06/ap/tech/mainD8LR6FQO0.shtml Future Dimming for Puerto Rico Telescope Future dimming for Puerto Rico's giant telescope as budget cuts loom By BEN FOX Associated Press December 6, 2006 (AP) - At the world's largest radio telescope, astronomers searching for asteroids on a collision course with Earth are bracing for a more worldly threat: The steepest budget cuts and first layoffs since the observatory opened in 1963. Managers are warning staff and outside astronomers to prepare for a leaner future, with fewer research projects and less telescope time available as they finish a costly repainting job amid a looming cut in U.S. government funding. This place will change dramatically, Robert L. Brown, director of the National Astronomy and Ionosphere Center, which includes the observatory, said in a recent interview. The Arecibo radio telescope, with its signature 1,000-foot reflector dish set in a jungle-like landscape, is best known as a setting in Contact, a 1997 Jodie Foster movie based on the Carl Sagan book about the search for extraterrestrial life _ a hunt that still takes place at the observatory. It also gained fame in the 1995 James Bond movie Goldeneye, in which the telescope's platform, suspended like a giant steel spider 450 feet above the dish, figured in a climactic fight scene. Day-to-day activities at the observatory, which is managed by Cornell University, are less cinematic. Unlike optical telescopes that visually scan the skies, the telescope at Arecibo receives and processes natural radio signals emitted by planets, stars and other objects. As the world's largest, it is more sensitive than any other radio telescope and can detect more and fainter objects in space. By bouncing radio waves off asteroids, it also charts their location, speed, course and some other characteristics. The whole world loses if funding is lost for Arecibo, said Lance Benner, a research scientist at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif. He uses the telescope to track near-earth asteroids. We're a very inexpensive form of insurance for the whole planet. The telescope is so prized that astronomers let out a collective shudder in November when a review panel recommended the U.S. cut 25 percent of the observatory's $10.5 million astronomy budget next year and consider eliminating it entirely at the end of the decade. The panel suggested that the private sector or overseas institutions could pay part of Arecibo's costs So many of us use the results that come out of there that we are very concerned, said Brother Guy Consolmagno, an astronomer at the Vatican Observatory in Castel Gandolfo, Italy. There is nothing that can come close to what it can do. National Science Foundation officials commissioned the review panel to find ways to pay for new projects at a time when Congress isn't likely to increase the research budget, said Wayne Van Citters, director of the agency's astronomy division. They concluded that we simply could not keep everything that we currently support going at the time that we pursued the extremely ambitious future program before us, Van Citters said. Those future programs include the U.S. share of an international radio telescope under construction in the Atacama Desert of Chile. When it opens around 2011, it will be the largest observatory ever built. The $30 million in proposed cuts from the NSF's overall $200 million astronomy budget were spread out over a number of programs through the end of the decade to avoid irreparable harm to the nation's astronomy research, he said. The NSF is still reviewing the panel's recommendations. But Arecibo is already scrimping to repaint the telescope, a $5 million project that officials say must be done now to prevent the steel from corroding in the humid air of northwestern Puerto Rico. The facility, which was built by the U.S. Air Force, will borrow the money and pay it back over the next
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite-list Digest, Vol 36, Issue 28
Hi, All, Chris said: I don't know if anybody has worked out the likelihood of that happening- very, very rare... I called my oddsmaker in Vegas (or was it Vega), and here's what he said... The problem is essentially the same as the likelihood of being smacked by a one-time long period comet; it falls in from the back of nowhere , slingshots around the Sun, and zaps back out. It's completely random; it could come from any direction -- the Oort Cloud is a sphere. So, imagine that the radius of the orbit of the Earth defines an inner sphere surrounding the Sun, through which the object will have to pass in order to swing around the Sun and back out. The surface area of that sphere is about two billion times the cross section of the Earth itself, so the odds of being hit by the incoming comet is one in two billion, and the odds of being hit by the outgoing comet is one in two billion. Overall, the odds are about one in a billion for both coming and going. There is a good sized (10 kilometer diameter and up)* long period comet almost every year, so we will get comet-whacked every billion years or so. [* Comet Hale-Bopp was 40 MILES in diameter.] On average... Little long period comets (1 kilometer to 10 kilometers diameter) are 5-10 times more common, so expect a medium comet whack every (couple of) 100,000,000 years or so. Of course, being gob-smacked by a long period comet is just about the worst. I hate when that happens. The comet is going at the solar system escape velocity (almost); the Earth is going at its orbital velocity. What the vector total of those two? Answer: Too much. The kinetic energy goes up by the square of the velocity, so maybe 4 to 6 times the energy of the impact of an asteroid of the same mass. That's going to leave a mark, as they say. Just to prove that the Universe isn't a sporting proposition, a long period comet coming from the Oort Cloud isn't likely to brighten enough to be detected by visual comet finders until it's near the orbit of Jupiter, which would give us about 2-3 weeks of warning of an incoming encounter -- hardly enough time to get drunk, have a last fling, and say your prayers. Of an outgoing encounter, we'd have 4-5 weeks of warning time. That's some improvement but not much. Not, for example, enough time to move several billion people to the side of the planet away from the impact point. Hmm. How many frequent flyer miles you got? You feel like a long vacation? Of course, if the comet was just from Far Kuiper County, with a period of 3000-4000 years, we'd have months (instead of weeks) to get ready. You'll be ready in 4-5 months, won't you? Since the Leonids are retrograde and the Earth prograde, the encounter velocity is the vector sum of the two, but the angle of incidence between the Earth and the Leonid stream varies from year to year; when it's 180 degrees, or face-on, the encounter velocity is the oft-quoted 71,000+ mps. At lesser angles, it's somewhat less but still hefty. Nice that they're mostly just pea gravel and sand sized bits; very pretty and they don't leave marks. Sterling K. Webb --- http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1997neo..conf...67W The long-period comets pose a unique problem for the impact hazard problem. Because of their very long orbital periods and generally large distances from the Sun, they cannot be surveyed and catalogued in the same manner as the near-Earth asteroids and short-period comets. They appear at random, uniformly distributed on the celestial sphere. Current technologies can detect long-period comets at distances of approx. 5 AU, giving somewhat less than a one year warning time for potential Earth impactors. The mean impact probability for a long-period comet crossing the Earth's orbit is 2.2 to 2.5 x 10-9 per perihelion passage. The mean impact velocity is approximately 52 km sec-1 but the most probable impact energy is characterized by a velocity of 56 to 58 km/sec. The estimated current impact rate for cometary nuclei large enough to create 10 km diameter (or larger) craters on the Earth is between 5 x 10-7 and 2.8 x 10-6 per year, with a bed estimated value of 1.0 x 10-6 per year. Nuclei large enough to initiate global climatic disturbances strike the Earth on average every 16 Myr. The impact frequency may be increased substantially for brief periods of time during cometary showers, initiated by major perturbations of the Oort cloud. Improved technologies are needed to detect approaching long-period comets at large heliocentric distances so as to increase the warning time for potential impactors. - Original Message - From: Chris Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 12:02 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list]
