Re: [meteorite-list] www.venusmeteorite.com - what are your opinions on this claim
Dear Mr. Gregory: At 02:34 13-02-07 Tuesday, you wrote: Simply put, what testing can definitively differentiate a rock from space and a rock from the earth? Answer: The presence of nuclides that are the products of reactions with cosmic-rays - nuclides that can only be produced in space (that is, on a body with no atmosphere). Do a Google search on cosmic ray exposure age and there's lots of info. If anyone can provide me with photos of rocks with identical characteristics to the photos on the venusmeteorite.com website or the photos I'm enclosing, I will gladly transfer $250 to your account. Trust me, you'll be saving me a ton of money and we can put this baby to bed. I don't want the $250, but I have seen photos of rocks (one in particular) that look remarkably (!) like the alleged Venusian meteorites: http://meteorites.wustl.edu/meteorwrongs/m079.htm ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+ Randy L. Korotev Research Associate Professor Washington University in Saint Louis Department of Earth Planetary Sciences __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] www.venusmeteorite.com - what are your opinions on this claim
Jason, Thank you for responding to my questions. I am also trying to gain a self-meteoriticized education. I was unaware of the attachment rule. PS - Attachments aren't supposed to be posted to the list, per list guidelines - you ask people if they want them and then send out privately... And if that pic's of a 'Venusian meteorite,' you should head out to Ludlow, CA, because there's a hell of a big area out there covered in beautiful desert-varnished basalt - I mean Venusian meteorites - just like that, with some pieces weighing a good few hundred pounds..downflow from Amboy Crater, a beautiful cindercone Unfortunately, I can not head out to Ludlow, CA to see the desert-varnish basalt, but I can assure you that it is not desert varnish. Wikipedia definintion of desert varnish Originally scientists thought that desert varnish was made from substances drawn out of the rocks it coats. Microscopic and microchemical observations, however, show that a major part of varnish is clay (which could only arrive by wind). Clay, then, acts as a substrate to catch additional substances that chemically react together when the rock reaches high temperatures in the desert sun. Wetting by dew is also important in the process. The varnish is primarily composed of particles of clay along with iron and manganese oxides. Another important characteristic of desert varnish is that it has an unusually high concentration of manganese. Manganese is relatively rare in the earth's crust, making up only 0.12% of its weight. In desert varnish, however, manganese is 50 to 60 times more abundant. This significant enrichment is thought to be caused by biochemical processes (many species of bacteria use manganese). I've already had basic mineralogical testing on my samples. (Remember, I have been working with the geologists at the National University of Peru). The mineralogical composition of the fusion crust is identical to the composition of the matrix. The analysis of the matrix, whole rock, and a cut/slice of the fusion crust show a very low concentration of Fe and Mn. The actual values are: Fe 4.93%, Mg 1.48%, Mn .23%, and Ni 69 ppm. The samples I have and the samples on venusmeteorite.com are not desert varnish. I know what desert varnish looks like. I've spent a great deal of time in the desert and have seen many rocks with desert varnish. With the cooperation of the UNSA geologist, it was ruled-out early in the analysis. Varnish is additive to the underlying matrix. One volcanologist said that it may be possible that my samples could be wind-polished basalt. This is a real possibility that I am currently pursuing beside the fact that the samples came from a prehistoric alluvial plain and showed evidence that there was an impact. Is it possible that a basaltic rock bubbled up and subsequently polished by the wind. Yes, it might be possible. I view it as unlikely due to the extreme hardness of this particular basalt (8 mohs), but it is a possibility, and I will not rule out ANY possibility. He has requested a sample which I will be sending out when I travel to Lima in the next few weeks. The extreme hardness of my samples has been puzzling to myself and the geologists at UNSA. My sample exceeds the natural hardness of basalt. In fact, it exceeds the hardness of quartz, which is considered to be the hardest naturally occurring mineral. Quartz hardness is 8.0, and my samples exceed 8.0 on the Mohs scale. Currently, the only known method of creating basalt harder than quartz is to grind it, apply a special heat treatment at 1300°C where it re-crystallises, giving it extreme Hardness: 8-9 on the Mohs scale. This process is known as cast-basalt. Where you would normally expect basalt to streak on quartz I have a picture showing how quartz streaks on my basaltic sample and I also have a video of the area showing the natural state (baby-powder fine sand) If you're interested, I'll send them off-topic. Best Regards, Randall Jason Utas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hell, here are a few more of some random ones. Jason On 2/15/07, Jason Utas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here's a pair of pics of my favorite cratered Sikhote. Jason On 2/15/07, Jason Utas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Randall, With my self-meteoriticized education, I might be able to help with at least a few of your questions... On 2/14/07, Randall Gregory [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mr. Webb,McCafferty and any interested parties on the list. If you don't mind, coud you please answer a couple of questions? Could your Martian impact scenario apply to ejecta from Mercury? http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2003/pdf/1933.pdf The spatial density (number per unit volume) of meteoroids varies as a function of distance from the sun, distance from a planet, ecliptic
Re: [meteorite-list] www.venusmeteorite.com - what are your opinions on this claim
Hi Randall: I will try to answer one of your questions. I wish I could give you details on how to get meteorites off of Mars, but this is something that I would have to talk to Jay Melosh about (if I can keep him in place long wnough). However, I can address the issue of asteroid/meteroid temperatures: The temperature of an asteroid depends on: distance from the Sun, how fast it is rotating, the nature of the surface material (rocky, dusty, high or low albedo, composition [at some level]). The closer it is to the Sun, the warmer. The dustier it is, the hotter it gets, but cools down at night. The slower it rotates, the hotter it gets at noon and the colder it gets at night. The dustier it is, the less the heat of the Sun can penetrate into the inrerior and so the cooler the inside stays. Typical main-belt asteroids can get up to about 250 K at noon at the sub-solar point, but will cool down to 125 K or so at night. Near-Earth asteroids will get warmer as they approach the Sun, but they tend to be rockier, which reduces the max temperature, but can still get warm to hot depending on how close to the Sun the asteroid gets. However, the average temperature will still be fairly low since the interior is usually well insulated and the asteroid still probably spends much of its time far from the Sun. I hope this helps. Larry On Wed, February 14, 2007 11:13 am, Randall Gregory wrote: Mr. Webb,McCafferty and others. If you don't mind, I have a few more questions. Do you know of a facility that could perform 187Os/186Os ratios testing at a reasonable price? Would element variations and ratios in the fusion crust be indicative of extraterrestrial origin. In other words, would the capture and melting of space dust into the fusion crust, thus causing elemental variances be a good indicator? Do you know of any comparative analysis of the fusion crust/matrix that could be identified as high versus low atmospheric heating? Does rapid atmospheric heating alter the fusion crust differently than terrestrial heating? Do you know if artificial ablation has been compared to natural ablation on meteorites? I tried different types of heat on a sample that I fractured and found that an artificially heated sample created a very different type of fusion crust. The artificial crust was glassy and somewhat brittle. In the vacuum of space, all meteorids would receive solar radiation in varying degrees and cooled by space itself. Could the temperature of a near-earth meteroid be projected from it's mineral characteristics? In other words, we know meteorites are cold, but the question is how cold are they before they reach the Earth's atmosphere? Thanks, Randall - Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.__ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] www.venusmeteorite.com - what are your opinions on this claim
Could your Martian impact scenario apply to ejecta from Mercury? Probably but you've no atmospheric effects to account for. You've got a big potential well to climb out of mind. Fine, you've got the Yarkovsky effect to help you out but it's a big ask. I don't know where I read this or who calculated it, but I remember reading that with all the variables (including difficulty finding them) no more than 15kg of mercury meteorites are likely on earth. One of these days I'll take copies of this kinda thing. I was wondering if there would there be any ablation at all on the outbound martian rock, Regardless of Mars' characteristics, It's gonna need 7km/s to get off the planet and that's gonna cause ablation, unless there is an undetermined process by which it can escape without it. Sterling's method for low shock ejecta may well do the job and I like it. Never Miss an Email Stay connected with Yahoo! Mail on your mobile. Get started! http://mobile.yahoo.com/services?promote=mail __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] www.venusmeteorite.com - what are your opinions on this claim
Ken, Thank you for you reply and the link to webwrongs. Yes, it's theolitic basalt with a melted surface. I hope you will keep an open mind and take the time to read this. Please take a look at the Geophysical Meteors on the web link you provided. I have had many communications with the author of that website, Dr. Andrei Ol'khovatov. If you would look at the Peruvian meteorite sighting on that website you will see that it was a mid-day witnessed fall and the impact was recorded by 3 different seismic stations (Arica Chile, Arequipa Peru, and Lima Peru). Dr. Mutsumi Shisutka (Institute Geophysical Peru) and Dr. Armando Minaya UNSA (University National San Agustin) assisted me by providing seismic recordings, and in turn, I provided them with the actual location of the crater. The actual location of the crater was important in helping to adjust their equipment in refining earthquake epicenters. The main mass at this current time in in-extractable due to the terrain but efforts are underway contracting with a heavy equipment operator to bulldoze a small dirt road. I have talked with the local government about buying a 100 hectares mining concession encompassing the crater to protect it. When the main mass is uncovered, I'll know more. It took me 2 years and 6 separate expeditions to find the crater. I lived for a time in the area of El Castillo with a family that witnessed this event. With satellite photos, eyewitness accounts, seismic data, detailed charts and assistance provided by the national university I searched for the impact area. I found it and I have all the proof. What is interesting is that some of the specimens I collected near the crater are identical to one of the pictures in the venusmeteorite.com. I went to ACTLABS in Lima, Peru to have a sample analyzed but they lacked the equipment necessary. They told me that ACTLABS.com (Canada) might be able to provide this analysis.The type of testing I need is space weathering. Specifically, solar to galactic ray tracks, oxygen isotope fractionation patterns, radionuclide measurements, and noble gas analysis. I would like to find a planetary geologist who will take to time to look at a specimen and read the reports but in reality, my expectations are low. I wrote to Dr. Korotev some time ago, but he too has doubts and his area of expertise is lunar meteorites. I can tell you that some of the rocks near the crater have a black splatter with the same characteristics as the samples. In an area of tan to rust colored terrain, a rock that looks like melted black plastic is unmistakable. I talked with a Peruvian government hydrologist (Jorge Mena) that works in this general area and he told me he has never seen rocks like that in his 40 years in the field searching for underground aquifers. Can you speculate what would a inner-planet meteorite look like? Does the fact that it fell mid-day have any significance? Would you expect a mid-day fall? Are mid-day falls rare? And if 20 years ago someone said that they had a meteorite that might just be from Mars, would anyone believe them? I have a lot of evidence but no definitive proof that these are meteorites or where they might have come from. I'm hoping you can help me find the answer. I am sending a copy of this email to Dr. Korotev in the hope that he would be kind enough to provide a introduction to Dr. Brett Gladman or Dr. Akira Yamaguchi if possible. Randall Hi Randall, It's basalt. Here are some more meteorwrong sites (bottom half) http://home.earthlink.net/~magellon/webwrongs.html Best, Ken Newton Randall Gregory wrote: Has anyone seen this website and if so, what are your opinions as to the validity of his claims that the meteorites found are from Venus. And how would anyone know if a meteorite came from one of the inner planets? Would cosmic ray exposure and oxygen isotope be useful. What tests would be definitive? Randall - Have a burning question? Go to Yahoo! Answers and get answers from real people who know. - __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list - Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by Green Rating at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] www.venusmeteorite.com - what are your opinions on this claim
Another way to recognize a Venus surface rock would be from its weathering in the Venus atmosphere. Because Venus' surface is so hot, and its atmosphere is so rich in carbon dioxide and sulfur oxides, the surface rocks should have lots of sulfates and maybe carbonates in them. Water-free sulfates like anhydrite. Allan Allan Treiman Lunar and Planetary Institute 3600 Bay Area Boulevard Houston TX 77058 USA 281-486-2117 [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Feb 12, 2007, at 5:55 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Randall and Others: I did some checking. To quote Tim Swindle: Yes, there may be meteorites from Venus, but we have not found them yet! It is much more difficult to get something out of the gravity well of Venus, through the Venus atmosphere, and out of the gravity well of the Sun. It is much easier to get things off Mars and let Poynting Robertson effect, etc. bring it in toward the Earth. How would we recognize a Venus meteorite? Argon dating. Potassium decays to argon. At the temperture of the Venus surface, the argon would almost immediately escape. So, would not create argon 40 that could be retained by a rock until it was out in space. Therefore, its argon age would be about the same as its cosmic ray exposure age. Larry __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] www.venusmeteorite.com - what are your opinions on this claim
Mr. Webb,McCafferty and any interested parties on the list.
If you don't mind, coud you please answer a couple of questions?
Could your Martian impact scenario apply to ejecta from Mercury?
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2003/pdf/1933.pdf
The spatial density (number per unit volume) of meteoroids varies as a
function of distance from the sun, distance from a planet, ecliptic latitude
and longitude Are there any projections on the total number of spatial
meteoroids related to planetary volume?
Do meteoroids tend to group or stream? Or are streams and groupings a rare
occurrence?
Excluding space dust, my feelings are that streams and groups would be
predominant.
Due to a lower escape velocity, would a large asteroid impact on Mercury
close to it's aphelion be more likely to produce ejecta reaching the escape
velocities of Mercury/Sun than a similar event on Venus? Any probability
studies?
(For probability, I would assume the best/worst possible conditions:
equatorial launch, launch relative to planetary rotation, lowest daily
temperature range, and rock composition/density (basaltic mass).
Do you know of any studies with respect to meteoroids in space arriving to
earth as meteorites, do they have totally random trajectories due to collisions
or would they generally follow a straight course from their home
asteroid/planet? To put it quite simply, depending on rotation, impact time,
solar orientation, and impact angle could ejecta from a the inner planets
travel in a relatively straight line away from the sun. And would this same
scenario apply to planets outside earth's orbit. Could they travel in a similar
fashion towards Earth? And could this relate to the Earth's orientation to the
sun at the time of meteroite impact. In other words, would outer planet
meteroids be more likely to fall at night and inner planet meteorids fall
during the day.
Is fusion crust thickness directly related to the mineral characteristics of
density, hardness, melting point, thermal conductivity, and internal
tempurature of the meteoroid? Am I wrong in assuming that it is? Are there
other factors?
Would a shock-heated ejecta upon encountering the extreme cold of space cause
any changes in the density of the underlying material? What about ejecta at
melt temperature?
What would be the effect on micrometeorite pitting on various meteoroids?
Interplanetary dust particles (micro-meteoroids) were expected to form
well-defined craters upon impacting exposed material in space. Studying the
frequency and features of these craters will provide data on the mass-flux
distribution of micro-meteoroids and, to a lesser extent, on the velocity,
magnitude and direction - Study of Meteoroid Impact Craters on Various
Materials, NASA Langley Research Center.
Some of my samples show pitting which may be caused by micro-meteoroid
collisions. Due to the extreme hardness of the sample and sub-millimeter
thickness of the fusion crust these pits have been preserved. The ablated
material gathers on the trailing edge of these pits on orientated samples.
Do you know of any meteorites currently in collections that exhibit pitting?
What are the characteristics of the ablated material?
Are all meteorites tested for density and most specifically hardness?
And could anyone please help me retrieve this article:
author = {{Blanchard}, M.~B.},
title = {Artificial Meteor Ablation Studies},
booktitle = {IAU Colloq. 13: Evolutionary and Physical Properties of
Meteoroids},
year = 1973,
editor = {{Hemenway}, C.~L. and {Millman}, P.~M. and {Cook}, A.~F.},
pages = {241-+},
adsurl =
{http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?bibcode=1973eppm.coll..241Bdb_key=AST},
adsnote = {Provided by the Smithsonian/NASA Astrophysics Data System
Randall
Rob,
I was wondering if there would there be any ablation at all on the outbound
martian rock, from a planet with:
Surface atmospheric pressure: ~6.1 mb (about 1/150th that of Earth's)
Surface gas density: ~0.020 kg/m3
Surface temperature: ~210 K (-63 degrees Celsius)
Low escape velocity
And is it possible to achieve such a low impact angle or would gravity and
aerodynamic drag increase the angle so that a 1-3 degree trajectory may not be
possible. I believe existing ballistic models could be combined with a Mars
atmosphere model and gravitational model that might help to answer this
question.
Quite possibly a composite mathematical model borrowing code from the many
existing models might add validity to your theory. I believe Mars atmosphere
models, ballistic, compression, heating, and the myriad are all fairly
constant. It might not be such a large undertaking to help determine if a
lightly shocked rock could be back-spinned into space. I'd really like to see a
model like this applied to the other
Re: [meteorite-list] www.venusmeteorite.com - what are your opinions on this claim
Ken, I will be happy to share with you some of the data that I've collected at the impact site including videos and pictures. All of the pictures, videos, and samples are stored at my apartment in Lima. I am currently in Arequipa and expect to travel to Lima within the next two weeks. I hope you understand that I can not provide you with the exact location of the crater until I have secured the mining concession rights to the area. When I legally have title to the area, I will make the location known and provide first access only to scientists that study impact sites, then to other interested parties. When the studies are concluded, I will start excavation of the crater. I can give you the approximate location. Coordinates: 15°59'18S - 72°30'43W for the general area of the crater. Coordinates: 16°00'01.71S - 72°37'08.16W seismic epicenter recorded by the National University of Peru (UNSA) intensity 3.8 Richter Coordinates: 16°20'59.77S - 72°46'57.07W seismic epicenter recorded by the Geophysical Institute of Peru (IGP) located in Arequipa, 200 kilometers from the seismic event recorded it at 4.0 Richter giving the approximate TNT for seismic energy yield of 1 kiloton (small atomic bomb). All seismic stations including a station in Chile recorded this event at the exact time the eyewitnesses reported the explosion and resulting dust cloud. What I find to be remarkable is the accuracy of the seismic data, all within 30 km. I've also enclosed a copy of a meeting that I had with seismologists from the Geophysical Institute of Peru. The orginal text was in Spanish which I have translated to English. Unfortunately, I have to blank out the exact coordinates. Many people have strongly cautioned me about giving out too much information. I hope you understand, realize, and appreciate how much work has been put into this discovery. This is just the tip of the iceburg. On a side note, you might recall an image of a face on Mars that was captured some years back. We now have a similar image on Earth. Go to Wikimapia and type rostro de dios in the search box, click on the name, read the caption, and pan out. People said it looked like the Face of God and the name stuck. This image is clearly visible from about 3000ft. to over an altitude of 110 miles. Coordinates are: 1620'22.78S - 7157´40.61W for Google Earth. Comments appreciated. Randall E-Mail dated: ENGLISH VERSION I wish to thank all that attended our meeting yesterday for your time and effort. Maybe we can help the scientific community in Peru and the United States to a better understanding of our universe. I am pleased that I could assist you in calibrating your seismic equipment. Before my wife and I left for Lima, we asked her father to submit a small article to the local newspaper to announce the discovery and to thank the UNSA for their support in this discovery. We never expected that the newspaper would sensationalize this story. During the last expedition, my team and I made two excursions to the impact area. My intention was to fully document the impact zone and to expand the search to see if other structures may exist that would contribute to the discovery. Since it is difficult to estimate the amount of energy released on impact, I believe that it was important to completely document the total area. There may be multiple impacts, secondary impacts, impactites, fused sand, tektites, micro-tektites, with each contributing a piece of information to this story of a hyper velocity impact. The one thing that I hoped would not happen was for other people to go to the impact area and contaminate what is still a structure in a natural state. To document what we talked about, the GPS coordinates of what we called (blanked out) which from this point you can see the crater is (blanked out) with another vantage point closer to the impact is (blanked out). I trust the people at IGP and please (por favor) The only thing I ask from you is that you keep this information from public knowledge until I have completed my study. I have video recorded some parts of the expedition that I would also like to share with you at some time in the very near future. The definitions of some of the terms that I used are listed below. Impactites - glassy, molten rocks can also be produced directly by the high heat and pressure of a meteorite impact or just its shock wave, without projecting the molten material up into our atmosphere. Molten glass and rocks fractured by high pressure have been found near impact craters Tektites - small, pebble-like glassy objects of Earth material that have been melted by meteorite impact, splashed up into our atmosphere, and fallen to Earth again under gravity. They often acquire aerodynamic shapes when they partially melt on their return
Re: [meteorite-list] www.venusmeteorite.com - what are your opinions on this claim
Mr. Webb,McCafferty and others. If you don't mind, I have a few more questions. Do you know of a facility that could perform 187Os/186Os ratios testing at a reasonable price? Would element variations and ratios in the fusion crust be indicative of extraterrestrial origin. In other words, would the capture and melting of space dust into the fusion crust, thus causing elemental variances be a good indicator? Do you know of any comparative analysis of the fusion crust/matrix that could be identified as high versus low atmospheric heating? Does rapid atmospheric heating alter the fusion crust differently than terrestrial heating? Do you know if artificial ablation has been compared to natural ablation on meteorites? I tried different types of heat on a sample that I fractured and found that an artificially heated sample created a very different type of fusion crust. The artificial crust was glassy and somewhat brittle. In the vacuum of space, all meteorids would receive solar radiation in varying degrees and cooled by space itself. Could the temperature of a near-earth meteroid be projected from it's mineral characteristics? In other words, we know meteorites are cold, but the question is how cold are they before they reach the Earth's atmosphere? Thanks, Randall - Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.__ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] www.venusmeteorite.com - what are your opinions on this claim
--- Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
[I have a theory, of course, but not room enough
in this margin to write it down.]
I believe Fermat wrote something the same thing and it
took nearly 300 years to prove it. Sterling, make a
mental note to ACTUALLY write the theory down to save
some poor sucker from having to write a 200page thesis
in the future.
Would not Martian ablation on the way out from Mars
simply be destroyed by terrestrial ablation on the way
in to us? You know how much of the meteorites are
removed by the process. I find it difficult to believe
any could survive.
I often thought that rock could escape it's host
planet through the rarefaction zone above the
impactors trajectory. However, how this tallies with
low shock levels I don't know.
As I understand, the low shock would need to be right
at the very edge of the impact site. Not ideal for
launching up into a rarefaction zone. ...
Unless, {and here's a wild guess that's probably WAAAY
off but I'll accept criticism with dignity, only a
little sobbing and wailing}...
Could a low angle impact [1-3degrees] produce
sufficient rarefaction befind it to allow the low
shocked rock at the trailing edge of the impact site
to be 'grazed off' in a backward direction, back up
the initial path of the impactor?
Rob McC
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Re: [meteorite-list] www.venusmeteorite.com - what are your opinions on this claim
Randall, I think we would all be interested in seeing photos of the crater you found and your suspect meteorites rather than the roundabout way you began this discussion. As to whether anyone can assist you, depends if you are seeking truth or a preconceived idea. If you are really seeking the truth, I offer one piece of advice, don't rely on your own conclusions. Let the evidence (test results) as evaluated by two experts be the final say so. If the first does not lead you where you thought it might, get a second opinion of the evidence and if nothing has changed, let it drop. Sadly, there are too many persons that have obsessed over simple objects to their folly. Instead of heeding correct expert analyses they jump to the next expert hoping for a different result, critical of any who do not share their imagined expectation. Why can't it be this rare thing or that rare thing they ask. (see - http://tinyurl.com/34zlbf) The fruitage of obsession is frustration and paranoia. Not a good road to be on. Best Wishes on the recovery of the main mass, Ken Newton Randall Gregory wrote: Ken, Thank you for you reply and the link to webwrongs. Yes, it's theolitic basalt with a melted surface. I hope you will keep an open mind and take the time to read this. Please take a look at the Geophysical Meteors on the web link you provided. I have had many communications with the author of that website, Dr. Andrei Ol'khovatov. If you would look at the Peruvian meteorite sighting on that website you will see that it was a mid-day witnessed fall and the impact was recorded by 3 different seismic stations (Arica Chile, Arequipa Peru, and Lima Peru). Dr. Mutsumi Shisutka (Institute Geophysical Peru) and Dr. Armando Minaya UNSA (University National San Agustin) assisted me by providing seismic recordings, and in turn, I provided them with the actual location of the crater. The actual location of the crater was important in helping to adjust their equipment in refining earthquake epicenters. The main mass at this current time in in-extractable due to the terrain but efforts are underway contracting with a heavy equipment operator to bulldoze a small dirt road. I have talked with the local government about buying a 100 hectares mining concession encompassing the crater to protect it. When the main mass is uncovered, I'll know more. It took me 2 years and 6 separate expeditions to find the crater. I lived for a time in the area of El Castillo with a family that witnessed this event. With satellite photos, eyewitness accounts, seismic data, detailed charts and assistance provided by the national university I searched for the impact area. I found it and I have all the proof. What is interesting is that some of the specimens I collected near the crater are identical to one of the pictures in the venusmeteorite.com. I went to ACTLABS in Lima, Peru to have a sample analyzed but they lacked the equipment necessary. They told me that ACTLABS.com (Canada) might be able to provide this analysis.The type of testing I need is space weathering. Specifically, solar to galactic ray tracks, oxygen isotope fractionation patterns, radionuclide measurements, and noble gas analysis. I would like to find a planetary geologist who will take to time to look at a specimen and read the reports but in reality, my expectations are low. I wrote to Dr. Korotev some time ago, but he too has doubts and his area of expertise is lunar meteorites. I can tell you that some of the rocks near the crater have a black splatter with the same characteristics as the samples. In an area of tan to rust colored terrain, a rock that looks like melted black plastic is unmistakable. I talked with a Peruvian government hydrologist (Jorge Mena) that works in this general area and he told me he has never seen rocks like that in his 40 years in the field searching for underground aquifers. Can you speculate what would a inner-planet meteorite look like? Does the fact that it fell mid-day have any significance? Would you expect a mid-day fall? Are mid-day falls rare? And if 20 years ago someone said that they had a meteorite that might just be from Mars, would anyone believe them? I have a lot of evidence but no definitive proof that these are meteorites or where they might have come from. I'm hoping you can help me find the answer. I am sending a copy of this email to Dr. Korotev in the hope that he would be kind enough to provide a introduction to Dr. Brett Gladman or Dr. Akira Yamaguchi if possible. Randall Hi Randall, It's basalt. Here are some more meteorwrong sites (bottom half) http://home.earthlink.net/~magellon/webwrongs.html Best, Ken Newton Randall Gregory wrote: Has anyone seen this website and if so, what are your opinions as to the validity of his claims that the meteorites
Re: [meteorite-list] www.venusmeteorite.com - what are your opinions on this claim
Hi Randall and Others: I did some checking. To quote Tim Swindle: Yes, there may be meteorites from Venus, but we have not found them yet! It is much more difficult to get something out of the gravity well of Venus, through the Venus atmosphere, and out of the gravity well of the Sun. It is much easier to get things off Mars and let Poynting Robertson effect, etc. bring it in toward the Earth. How would we recognize a Venus meteorite? Argon dating. Potassium decays to argon. At the temperture of the Venus surface, the argon would almost immediately escape. So, would not create argon 40 that could be retained by a rock until it was out in space. Therefore, its argon age would be about the same as its cosmic ray exposure age. Larry __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] www.venusmeteorite.com - what are your opinions on this claim
Hi, Randall, Ken, Larry, List, Some points here. Venus meteorites possible? Yes. Objection: Venus' thick atmosphere. Well, in theory, Mars' thin atmosphere is sufficient to consume small objects moving from the surface at Mars' escape velocity, so in theory, they can't get here either, but somehow, they manage to do it. Moreover, examination of Mars' rocks shows that some were not subjected to any high level of shock. So, how rocks get gently knocked off any planet with an atmosphere is presently pretty much of a mystery. Neither do any of the Mars' rocks show any signs of an ancient (Martian) ablation before they arrived here. [I have a theory, of course, but not room enough in this margin to write it down. If anyone has a taste for plasmamagnetohydrodynamics, I'll email it to you.] The pioneering simulations of interplanetary transfer of material by impact were done by Brett Gladman* in the mid 1990's (as soon as we found out that rocks could get here from Mars). They've been repeated and improved for a decade, and yes, rocks from Venus (and Mercury) can get to Earth. In fact, these simulations (of 100,000's of random particles) show that the number of Venusites should be about half the number of Marsites. (Mercurites much less common; about 6-7% of Marsites.) *The exchange of impact ejecta between terrestrial planets, by Brett J. Gladman, Joseph A. Burns, Martin Duncan, Pascal Lee and Harold F. Levison, Science, 1996. Can you speculate what would a inner-planet meteorite look like? Not wanting to offend, but on the outside, all freshly fallen meteorites look very much alike. In the inside, it's a different story. What Venusian rock would look like is speculative, except that much of the Venusian surface is basaltic. So, a Venusian meteorite would most likely be a basalt, and would in many ways, greatly resemble a terrestrial rock. We have, therefore, the odd situation that the very thing that makes a rock a Venusian candidate is the thing that makes people dismiss it. Larry has put his finger right on the key difference: argon. OK, argon and neon, but mostly argon. Most of the argon in the Earth's atmosphere is argon-40. We presume that it got there by decay from the potassium-40 in the rocks of the Earth. There is a little bit of argon-36 which (we presume) is left over from the solar nebula. The terrestrial 40/36 ratio is 400-to-one. But Venus? The Venusian 40/36 ratio is one-to-one. It is inexplicable. It can't be left over from the solar nebula. Can Venus be that depleted in potassium? Or has it never had vulcanism? Both are ridiculous. It just doesn't make any sense. It's a mystery. That's data for you, bless it's heart. Moreover, Venus' surface is recent (meaning about half a billion years). The whole planet was surface melted, possibly to the depth of the crust; the atmospheric argon of Venus should be mostly rock-released argon-40. And argon is too heavy to be lost easily from the atmosphere. However that 50/50 ratio got there, it means that if you're going to test a Venus rock for anything, the one thing you want to do is ARGON ISOTOPES. (Well, all the nobles. There is also an excess of neon, but not the other nobles.) It was, after all, how we recognized that those odd SNC meteorites were from Mars: their unique noble gas ratios matched the Viking data. I guarantee one thing: the noble gas ratios of a real Venus rock will be WEIRD, whatever the details. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: ken newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Randall Gregory [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 4:03 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] www.venusmeteorite.com - what are your opinions on this claim Randall, I think we would all be interested in seeing photos of the crater you found and your suspect meteorites rather than the roundabout way you began this discussion. As to whether anyone can assist you, depends if you are seeking truth or a preconceived idea. If you are really seeking the truth, I offer one piece of advice, don't rely on your own conclusions. Let the evidence (test results) as evaluated by two experts be the final say so. If the first does not lead you where you thought it might, get a second opinion of the evidence and if nothing has changed, let it drop. Sadly, there are too many persons that have obsessed over simple objects to their folly. Instead of heeding correct expert analyses they jump to the next expert hoping for a different result, critical of any who do not share their imagined expectation. Why can't it be this rare thing or that rare thing they ask. (see - http://tinyurl.com/34zlbf) The fruitage of obsession is frustration and paranoia. Not a good road to be on. Best Wishes on the recovery of the main mass, Ken Newton Randall Gregory wrote: Ken, Thank you for you reply
Re: [meteorite-list] www.venusmeteorite.com - what are your opinions on this claim
Hi Randall and the List, This guy has spent a lot of time testing his rocks. His samples look very terrestrial to me. I do not recognize any flight markings. He states that the escape velocity of Venus is less than Earth, but he does not explain how an impactor makes it to the surface through the very dense atmosphere on Venus. He also does not explain how the Venusian material is accelerated enough to get back out through that same very dense atmosphere. Looks pretty unlikely to me from an engineering perspective. I would be interested in hearing from others more versed in astronomy, geology and meteoritics. Best Regards, Pat it's a scientific lifestyle --- Randall Gregory [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Has anyone seen this website and if so, what are your opinions as to the validity of his claims that the meteorites found are from Venus. And how would anyone know if a meteorite came from one of the inner planets? Would cosmic ray exposure and oxygen isotope be useful. What tests would be definitive? Randall - Have a burning question? Go to Yahoo! Answers and get answers from real people who know. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] www.venusmeteorite.com - what are your opinions on this claim
Has anyone seen this website and if so, what are your opinions as to the validity of his claims that the meteorites found are from Venus. And how would anyone know if a meteorite came from one of the inner planets? Would cosmic ray exposure and oxygen isotope be useful. What tests would be definitive? Randall - Have a burning question? Go to Yahoo! Answers and get answers from real people who know.__ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
