[meteorite-list] interesting speculation Pacific Basin origin

2007-01-29 Thread Gerald Flaherty
Just for fun, before we understood about plate tectonics
and thought that land only moved up and down, not back
and forth, it was widely believed that the Pacific Ocean was,
not an impact feature, but an outpact feature, the place
where the Moon spun off the Earth, leaving what would be
the largest basin in the Solar System (if it were true, that is).
Sterling Webb
Hadn't heard this before but often considered the break up of Pangea etc., 
a result of impacts.
A string of cometary material similar to that which impacted Jupiter in 
the late 90s might do a superb job of perforating the continents into a 
myriad of interesting shapes.
Or as the multiple strings of impact craters seen on the Martain surface 
describe.
Not that impacts are needed to explain such phenomena. Ordinary tectonic 
gyrations probably provide an ample source for the stretching and contorting 
going on worldwide today.
Jerry Flaherty 

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Re: [meteorite-list] interesting speculation Pacific 'Basin' origin

2007-01-29 Thread lebofsky
Back in the dark ages (1950s and early 1960s), before the Dawning of the
Age of Aquarius (Which really starts somewhere between 2060 and 2100), we
were taught (and some of us even taught) that it was interesting how it
looked like South America fit into Africa and that the Pacific Ocean basin
was about the size of the Moon. One of the models for the formation of the
Moon was the binary fission model: the Earth was rotating fast enough to
spin off the Moon. There are a lot of problems with this model, but it
sure looked good when one looked at the size and shape of the Pacific! It
still hung on even after the discovery of moving plates.

This model hung on until at least the mid 80s (Alan Binder, et al.), but
with the advent of the Giant Impact model (Hartmann and others), the other
models (fission, co-accretion, and capture) began to lose favor.

Larry

On Mon, January 29, 2007 2:30 pm, Gerald Flaherty wrote:
 Just for fun, before we understood about plate tectonics
 and thought that land only moved up and down, not back and forth, it was
 widely believed that the Pacific Ocean was, not an impact feature, but an
 outpact feature, the place
 where the Moon spun off the Earth, leaving what would be the largest
 basin in the Solar System (if it were true, that is).
 Sterling Webb
 Hadn't heard this before but often considered the break up of Pangea
 etc., a result of impacts. A string of cometary material similar to that
 which impacted Jupiter in the late 90s might do a superb job of
 perforating the continents into a
 myriad of interesting shapes. Or as the multiple strings of impact
 craters seen on the Martain surface describe. Not that impacts are needed
 to explain such phenomena. Ordinary tectonic gyrations probably provide
 an ample source for the stretching and contorting going on worldwide
 today. Jerry Flaherty


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 Meteorite-list mailing list
 Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
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Re: [meteorite-list] interesting speculation Pacific Basin origin

2007-01-29 Thread Darren Garrison
On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 16:30:44 -0500, you wrote:

Just for fun, before we understood about plate tectonics
and thought that land only moved up and down, not back
and forth, it was widely believed that the Pacific Ocean was,
not an impact feature, but an outpact feature, the place
where the Moon spun off the Earth, leaving what would be
the largest basin in the Solar System (if it were true, that is).

Hadn't heard this before but often considered the break up of Pangea etc., 
a result of impacts.

I don't know just how long people still clung to that possibility (modern plate
tektonics theory coming around, IIRC, in 1969) but I remember reading books in
the late 70s-early-80s (I was born in 1972) that still had the moon ripped out
of the Pacific as a serious theory.
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Re: [meteorite-list] interesting speculation Pacific Basin origin

2007-01-29 Thread Sterling K. Webb
Hi, Jerry, List,

The chief theorist about the origin of the Moon
was George Darwin (1845-1912, and the son of Charles
Darwin). His theory was that the Earth and Moon
fissioned under high initial rotation while still molten,
the Moon flying off into orbit and taking the angular
momentum with it, slowing the rotation of the Earth
(which it has and is still doing).

The day was shorter in past eras. In the Ordovician
(400 mya) there were about 400 days in a year. Two
studies of stromatolites show that at 700 mya, the year
was 435 days (a 20.1 hour day), and at 850 mya, the year
was 450 days (a 19.5 hour day).

The rate of change in the length of the day varies
because it is regulated by tidal friction which depends on
sea depths, coastlines, other changing geological features
and a lot of orbital details. But ultimately, for the theory
to work, the Moon's orbital velocity at the moment that
the Earth and Moon separate has to be the same as
the rotation rate of the Earth!

The orbital period of a satellite just above the
Earth's surface (assuming we had no atmosphere)
would be about 89 minutes. If the Earth was turning
this fast, the surface rock (or magma) would be
weightless, or very nearly. At this point a giant wave
or ripple could rise and detach itself from the
Earth, pulling up the material from which the
Moon would be made.

That's the physics of it, but George Darwin
was an astronomer as well as a physicist and knew
that the actual event would be messier: a lopsided
planet with a huge sticky lump on it. The lumpy
part above the Earth's surface would be orbiting
too fast and would apply a torque that would break
the Moon off (leaving the Pacific Ocean basin behind).

For almost a century, this was the major theory
of the origin of the Moon, its only rival being the
notion that the Moon was captured by the Earth's
gravity (which is a really hard trick, mathematically,
like juggling chains saws... running).

Remember, one of the reasons we had the Apollo
program was to discover the origin of the Moon.
Well, one of the scientific excuses, anyway. And
indeed, the moon rocks killed George's theory dead.
They were not Earth rocks of any conceivable kind.

I vividly recall a long article arguing for the Darwin
theory of the Moon's origin in the Journal of the British
Interplanetary Society (I was a student member) in
the late 1950's. It was full of equations and diagrams
and graphs, but it still seemed to me to be haunted
by improbability.

On the other hand, Harold Jeffrys in 1924 showed,
with a refined analysis of the tidal evolution of the Earth
and Moon, that the Earth could not be less than 4 billion
years old. In 1924, most geologists and physicists thought
the Earth was about 1.2 to 1.4 billion years old and it was
only 1947 when the first isotope date of 4.5 billion years
was measured.

The mathematical problem of calculating the change
in the rate of change in the length of the day was not
fully solved until 1994, so it took 120 years to work
out all the details!

Here's a fine piece on the history of the problem
of the tidal evolution of Earth and Moon on the internet:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/moonrec.html
or just Google for Recession of the Moon.

As for the old Continental Drift and Other Dances,
Alfred Wegener gets all the credit for sticking to the
idea (even when it killed him, searching in Greenland
for evidence), but an American, F. B. Taylor, had
published a speculative paper suggesting continental
drift in 1910 which, however, had attracted little
attention, and neither had previous such suggestions
by Humbolt and Fisher.

Alfred Wegener (1880-1930) got all the attention
(if you want to call it that) for the idea of continental
drift. Here's some reviews of his 1912 book proposing it:
Utter, damned rot! said the president of the
American Philosophical Society.
If we are to believe [this] hypothesis, we must
forget everything we have learned in the last 70 years
and start all over again, said another American scientist.
Anyone who valued his reputation for scientific sanity
would never dare support such a theory, said a major
British geologist.
Clearly, it was a winner.

Wegener was also a meteorologist. He was the first
to describe the process (now called the Wegener-Bergeron-
Findeisen procedure) by which most raindrops form.
A good read on Wegener:
http://pangaea.org/wegener.htm


Sterling K. Webb
---
- Original Message - 
From: Gerald Flaherty [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 3:30 PM
Subject: [meteorite-list] interesting speculation Pacific Basin origin


Just for fun, before we understood about plate tectonics
and thought that land only moved up and down, not back
and forth, it was widely believed that the Pacific Ocean was,
not an impact feature, but an outpact feature