[meteorite-list] Holocene Extinctions and a different lake
In “[meteorite-list] Holocene Extinctions and a different lake”, Ed wrote: “I'm glad to hear that all the debate about the dating of the Lake Misssoula flooding has now been cleared up. Does the same thing hold for Lake Bonneville, and other Ice Age plains lakes?” I have PDF versions of about 70 publications about geology and paleoliminology, and chronology of Lake Bonneville. There are numerous other minor publications about Lake Bonneville. In addition, I have about a couple of dozen papers and other publications about other Ice Age pluvial lakes that existed in the Southwestern United States, including pluvial Lake Estancia in New Mexico. In none of these papers, is there any evidence of either any terminal Pleistocene impacts, including about “10,750 BCE,” or any Holocene impacts. The significant change from Ice Age pluvial lake levels in Lake Bonneville and other pluvial lakes towards modern playa lakes started about 12,600 14C yr BP (15,000 cal yr B.P.). This is long before any of your proposed impacts. This is simply the time that the colder, wetter climates of the Last Glacial Maximum transitioned to the warmer, drier conditions of the late Pleistocene and early Holocene. This change is coincident with comparable drops (regression) in lake-level in Lake Lahontan, Lake Estancia, and other southwestern pluvial lakes and with the onset of the Bolling-Allerod warming event. There is a very slight rise in lake levels to the Lake Gilbert highstand in response to climate changes associated with the Younger Dryas. There is nothing obvious in the lake sediments to indicate any direct association with any sort of extraterrestrial impact. Whatever caused the Younger Dryas climatic changes is what indirectly caused the high lake levels of Lake Gilbert. In terms of basic reading, a person can start with: Allen, B. D., 2005, Ice Age Lakes in New Mexico. in S. G. Lucas, G. S. Morgan, and K. E. Zeigler, eds., pp. 107-114, New Mexico’s Ice Ages. Bulletin no. 28, New Mexico Museum of Natural History and Science. http://geoinfo.nmt.edu/staff/allen/documents/iceagelakesnm.PDF Balch, D. P., A. S. Cohen, D. W. Schnurrenberger, B. J. Haskell, B. L. V. Garces, J. W. Beck, H. Cheng, and R. L. Edwards, 2005, Ecosystem and paleohydrological response to Quaternary climate change in the Bonneville Basin, Utah. Palaeogeography, Palaeoclimatology, Palaeoecology. vol. 221, no. 1-2, pp. 99-122. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0031018205000829 Benson, L. V., D. R. Currey, R .I. Dorn, K. R. Lajoie, C. G. Oviatt, S. W. Robinson, G. I. Smith, and S. Stine, 1990, Chronology of expansion and contraction of four great Basin lake systems during the past 35,000 years. Palaeogeography, Palaeoclimatology, Palaeoecology. vol. 78, no. 3-4, pp. 241-286. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/003101829090217U Benson, L. V., S. P. Lund, J. P. Smoot, D. E. Rhode, R. J. Spencer, K. L. Verosub, L. A. Louderback, C. A. Johnson, R. O. Rye, and R. M. Negrini, 2011, The rise and fall of Lake Bonneville between 45 and 10.5 ka. Quaternary International. vol. 235, no. 1-2, pp. 57-69. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1040618210004829 Louderback, L. A., and D. E. Rhode, 2009, 15,000 Years of vegetation change in the Bonneville basin: the Blue Lake pollen record. Quaternary Science Reviews. vol. 28, no. 3-4, pp. 308-326. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277379108002680 Godsey, H. S., C. G. Oviatt, D. M. Miller, and M. A. Chan, 2011, Stratigraphy and chronology of offshore to nearshore deposits associated with the Provo shoreline, Pleistocene Lake Bonneville, Utah. Palaeogeography, Palaeoclimatology, Palaeoecology. vol. 310, no. 3-4,pp. 442-450. Oviatt, C. G., D. M. Miller, J. P. McGeehin, C. Zachary, and S. Mahan, 2005, The Younger Dryas phase of Great Salt Lake , Utah. Palaeogeography, Palaeoclimatology, Palaeoecology. vol. 219, no. 3-4, pp. 263-284. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0031018211004317 Patrickson, D. S., A. R. Brunelle, and K. A. Moser, 2010, Late Pleistocene to early Holocene lake level and paleoclimate insights from Stansbury Island, Bonneville basin, Utah. Quaternary Research. vol. 73, no. 2, pp. 237-246. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0033589409001653 Spencer, R. J., M. J. Baedecker, H. P. Eugster, R. M. Forester, M. B. Goldhaber, B. F. Jones, K. Kelts, J. Mckenzie, D. B. Madsen and S. L. Rettig, 1984, Great Salt Lake, and precursors, Utah: The last 30,000 years. Contributions to Mineralogy and Petrology. vol. 86, no. 4, pp. 321-334. http://www.springerlink.com/content/j7744044505082r0/ Maps of the pluvial lakes of the Southwest US can be found at: 1. Late Quaternary Paleohydrology of the Mojave Desert http://esp.cr.usgs.gov/info/mojave/paleoenviron.html http://esp.cr.usgs.gov/info/mojave/images/fig13.gif 2. Reheis, M,, 1999, Extent of Pleistocene Lakes in the Western
[meteorite-list] Holocene Extinctions and a different lake
Hi Paul, all - Paul, I am sorry I wasted your time on Lake Missoula. I'm glad to hear that all the debate about the dating of the Lake Misssoula flooding has now been cleared up. Does the same thing hold for Lake Bonneville, and other Ice Age plains lakes? Here was the problem: http://uonews.uoregon.edu/archive/news-release/2011/3/california-islands-give-evidence-early-seafaring The points and crescents are similar to artifacts found in the Great Basin and Columbia Plateau areas, including pre-Clovis levels at Paisley Caves in eastern Oregon. You have maritime cultures moving inland, essentially still living on clams, fish, and marsh birds. The dates are pre-clovis. (And thus before the Holocene Start Impacts, which are well evidenced by a global distribution of impact products, including impact products distributed by the atmosphere and recovered from glaciers, currently estimated to have occured ca. 10,750 BCE. By the way, those cores you mention should also be showing the Holocene Start Impacts as well, so a special thanks for those links.) Now here's the Great Basin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Basin And here's the Coumbia Plateau: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_Plateau And here's Paisley Caves, near one dried up ice age lake: http://www.donsmaps.com/coproliteevidence.html And notice the mt A haplogroup (siouxian) and the mt B haplogroup (asian origin, Assiniboine Nakota)? found there: http://archaeology.about.com/b/2008/04/03/paisley-caves-the-discovery-of-preclovis-human-dna.htm Now all I need is a map of the western glacial lakes of the late pleistocene, with which I could then compare the distribution of artifacts. But I do not play a geologist on television, nor am I one in real life. My guess is that with your vast knowledge of geology, pointing me to such a map would be a piece of cake, and it would take but a few minutes of your time, far less than the minutes you spent ruling out Lake Missoula as a candidate for the lake the Nakota remembered living on. For that matter, you could do a far better job then I could in looking for Pacific Current cooling evidence in those Pacific coast cores. Thanks, Ed Hi all - I see from today's news that many people are still confused by the extinctions caused by the Holocene Start Impacts. Its really pretty easy, as Elephants need 450 pounds of food a day. Perhaps the following will explain it better. Good hunting, all - E.P. Grondine Man and Impact in the Americas THE WASHINGTON SCABLANDS AND ASSINIBOINE IMPACT ACCOUNTS Several posters here are interested in Harlan Bretz and the spread of his catastrophist hypothesis for the formation of the Washington sacablands. Currently, while all geologists agree that the scablands were formed by catastrophic flooding, there is debate over whether they were caused by the release of one or multiple lakes and exactly when the flooding(s) occurred. Of course, as oil companies have for years been drilling cores off the coast of Washington, those questions could be readily answered, except that those cores are proprietary. I spent some time reading through Adrienne Mayor's book Fossil Legends of the First Americans recently. It turns out that the Assiniboine (Nakota) may have remembered at least one of those floods. Mayor's book is pretty good, and she nearly succeeds in spanning the two worlds, but sadly she did not realize that the peoples remembered impacts, and thus failed to entirely grasp fundamental concepts like uktena and tlanwa. Mayor also retells the traditions with her intense interest in fossils coloring her retellings, and it is tough using her book to locate the original traditions as they were first shared. However, that said, it is a pretty good book. THE NAKOTA (ASSINIBOINE) ACCOUNTS IN MAYOR'S RETELLING Fragment 1: One Assiniboine name for bones of monstrous size was Wau-wau-kah. This was a half spirit, half animal imagined as a great river monster with long black[?]hair, scales, and horns like trees. Myth [tradition - epg] tells of its death by the impact of a thunder stone, a black [black due to the ablated surfaces of the meteorites which the Nakota later collected. - epg], projectile that came whistling out of the west with terrible velocity, defeaning noise, and a bright flash - a scenario that seems akin to the modern theory of an asteroid impact 65 million years ago [Mayor gets very close here - epg]. My bones may be found, warned the Water Monster Wau-wau-kah, but unless the Assiniboines made offerings to its spirit, the monster vowed to create disastrous floods and block their trails with its colossal bones. Fragment 2: A tale [tradition - epg] of the antagonism between Thunder and Water Monsters was recounted by an Assiniboine story teller [tradition keeper - epg] (perhaps Coming Day? - AM) in 1909 at Fort Belknap. Long ago, some Sioux and Assiniboines camping at a big lake witnessed a battle
[meteorite-list] Holocene Extinctions
Hi all - I see from today's news that many people are still confused by the extinctions caused by the Holocene Start Impacts. Its really pretty easy, as Elephants need 450 pounds of food a day. Perhaps the following will explain it better. Good hunting, all - E.P. Grondine Man and Impact in the Americas THE WASHINGTON SCABLANDS AND ASSINIBOINE IMPACT ACCOUNTS Several posters here are interested in Harlan Bretz and the spread of his catastrophist hypothesis for the formation of the Washington sacablands. Currently, while all geologists agree that the scablands were formed by catastrophic flooding, there is debate over whether they were caused by the release of one or multiple lakes and exactly when the flooding(s) occurred. Of course, as oil companies have for years been drilling cores off the coast of Washington, those questions could be readily answered, except that those cores are proprietary. I spent some time reading through Adrienne Mayor's book Fossil Legends of the First Americans recently. It turns out that the Assiniboine (Nakota) may have remembered at least one of those floods. Mayor's book is pretty good, and she nearly succeeds in spanning the two worlds, but sadly she did not realize that the peoples remembered impacts, and thus failed to entirely grasp fundamental concepts like uktena and tlanwa. Mayor also retells the traditions with her intense interest in fossils coloring her retellings, and it is tough using her book to locate the original traditions as they were first shared. However, that said, it is a pretty good book. THE NAKOTA (ASSINIBOINE) ACCOUNTS IN MAYOR'S RETELLING Fragment 1: One Assiniboine name for bones of monstrous size was Wau-wau-kah. This was a half spirit, half animal imagined as a great river monster with long black[?]hair, scales, and horns like trees. Myth [tradition - epg] tells of its death by the impact of a thunder stone, a black [black due to the ablated surfaces of the meteorites which the Nakota later collected. - epg], projectile that came whistling out of the west with terrible velocity, defeaning noise, and a bright flash - a scenario that seems akin to the modern theory of an asteroid impact 65 million years ago [Mayor gets very close here - epg]. My bones may be found, warned the Water Monster Wau-wau-kah, but unless the Assiniboines made offerings to its spirit, the monster vowed to create disastrous floods and block their trails with its colossal bones. Fragment 2: A tale [tradition - epg] of the antagonism between Thunder and Water Monsters was recounted by an Assiniboine story teller [tradition keeper - epg] (perhaps Coming Day? - AM) in 1909 at Fort Belknap. Long ago, some Sioux and Assiniboines camping at a big lake witnessed a battle between Thunder Bird and a Water Monster on an island in the lake. The storyteller's grandmother had told him that: as the Thunder Bird drew the writhing monster up from the island, the Indians' hair and their horses manes, [a non-temporal insertion? - epg] stood on end from the electricity. [electricity is another non-temporal insertion. Perhaps it may also be a modern simple telling of a large electrophorenic effect from the impactors entries. In regards to the horses manes, it needs to be noted that a rider on a horse in the plains is a high point that will attract lightening, much as a golfer standing on a gold course will, and thus it was very important to know the signs of an impending lightening strike.] The Thunder Bird's lightening ignited raging forest fires; then a long terrible blizzard followed; and still later the lake bed dried up and many kinds of animals perished there. The raging forest fires were likely caused by the infrared of multiple impacts. the long terrible blizzard describes the a standard severe climate collapse caused by atmospheric impact dust loading. the Lake of the Assiniboine is as yet unlocated; perhaps it was Lake Agassiz, but much more likely it was a glacial lake much further south (forest fires). Why did that lake dry up? Either its ice damn failed (disasterous floods, above), or there was a lack of precipitation due to a cooling of the temperature of the Pacific Current. The many kinds of animals likely perished due to lack of food, a famine which appears as a common element in many of the First Peoples' memories of the Holocene Start Impacts. END __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Holocene Extinctions and Missoula Flood
Holocene Extinctions and Missoula Floods E.P. Grondine wrote: “I see from today's news that many people are still confused by the extinctions caused by the Holocene Start Impacts. Its really pretty easy, as Elephants need 450 pounds of food a day.” Perhaps the following will explain it better. Good hunting, all - E.P. Grondine, Man and Impact in the Americas” THE WASHINGTON SCABLANDS AND ASSINIBOINE IMPACT ACCOUNTS Several posters here are interested in Harlan Bretz and the spread of his catastrophist hypothesis for the formation of the Washington scablands. Currently, while all geologists agree that the scablands were formed by catastrophic flooding, there is debate over whether they were caused by the release of one or multiple lakes and exactly when the flooding(s) occurred.” The above debate, which mentioned above, is imaginary in nature. First, the age of the latest Missouri Flood is well established by both radiocarbon dates and well-dated volcanic ash beds from Mt. St. Helens. Wood fragment from the lower-middle part of the Missoula Flood deposits in Sanpoil Valley yielded a radiocarbon date of 14,490 14Cyr B.P. A 14,000 year old volcanic “set-S” ash from Mount St. Helens overlies at least 28 giant-flood rhythmites and underlies eleven giant-flood rhythmites in southern Washington. Organic matter recovered from within and below the Missoula flood deposits in the Columbia Gorge yielded three dates between 15,000 and 13,700 14Cyr B.P. These and other dates clearly indicate that catastrophic flooding occurred at multiple times during a period of time between 15,700–13,500 14Cyr B.P. (Booth et al. 2004). The Missoula Flood clearly predate and are, thus, unrelated to any hypothetical terminal Pleistocene or Holocene impact event. As noted above, the Missoula Flood deposits are thousands of years too old to be associated with such an impact. In addition, the detailed study of sedimentology of the flood deposits demonstrates that the catastrophic flooding from glacial Lake Missoula occurred every few decades to years. This is comparable to the frequency in glacier-outburst floods (jokulhlaups) associated with modern Icelandic glaciers (Booth et al. 2004). The occurrence of multiple catastrophic Missoula Flood events over a period of approximately 2,000 years definitely refutes any notion that the Missoula Flood is associated with a single impact event of any age. A single impact would only have created a single catastrophic flood. It would have been quite impossible for a single impact of any age to have created multiple flood events over a 2,000 year period of time as has been well documented in the published literature. References Cited Booth, D. B., K. G. Troost, J. J. Clague, and R. B. Waitt, 2004, The Cordilleran Ice Sheet. in A. Gillespie, S. C. , Porter, and B. Atwater, eds., pp. 17-24, The Quaternary Period in the United States: International Union for Quaternary Research, Elsevier Press, New York. http://faculty.washington.edu/dbooth/Ch_02_INQUA_volume.pdf https://catalyst.uw.edu/workspace/file/download/0808b306b9967a473ab1851d477a4a35b0f79990349e2dc5d3eb3c7bfeb12668?inline=1 Also, go see: O'Conner, J., and R. Waitt, 1994, Beyond the Channeled Scabland: A field trip· to look at Missoula Flood Features in the Columbia, Yakima and Walla Walli valleys of Washington and Oregon. Friends of the Pleistocene 1st Pacific Northwest Cell Meeting May 13-15, 1994. U.S. Geological Survey, Vancouver, Washington. http://www.scribd.com/doc/24574508/Channeled-Scabland-A-field-trip%C2%B7-to-look-at-Missoula-Flood E.P. Grondine also stated: “Of course, as oil companies have for years been drilling cores off the coast of Washington, those questions could be readily answered, except that those cores are proprietary.” Oil company cores will likely tell use nothing about the Missoula Flood as the deposits that would contain deposits from the Missoula Flood are too young to be of any interest to them. They would simply drilled through such surficial sediments any only start coring once they got to the oil-bearing strata. In addition, petroleum seismic is not designed to image shallow strata, which are of no interest to oil companies. However, research by marine geologists using cores and seismic data have identified and mapped thick turbidite deposits consisting of material from the Missoula Flood that was flushed down the Astoria Fan on the Oregon continental margin. The vast majority of this research, including cores, is not proprietary. This research is discussed in a number of published papers, including: Brunner, C. A., W. R. Normark, G. G. Zuffa, and F. Serra, 1999, Deep-sea sedimentary record of the late Wisconsin cataclysmic floods from the Columbia River. Geology. vol. 27, no. 5, pp. 463-466. http://geology.geoscienceworld.org/cgi/content/abstract/27/5/463 Normark, W. R., and J. A. Reid, 2003, Extensive Deposits on the Pacific Plate
